Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:58 AM - Re: Tailwind-Elev balance stuff (Fred Weaver)
2. 08:42 AM - SAA Urbana '03 (Rick and Cindy)
3. 12:20 PM - Re: SAA Urbana '03 (flamini2)
4. 01:24 PM - Re: SAA Urbana '03 (Rick and Cindy)
5. 03:16 PM - Re: SAA Urbana '03 (Jim and Donna Clement)
6. 04:27 PM - Re: SAA Urbana '03 (flamini2)
7. 04:41 PM - Re: SAA Urbana '03 (Rick and Cindy)
8. 04:54 PM - [Fw: [Fw: [TailwindForum] O-O update]] (Rick and Cindy)
9. 05:44 PM - Sun N Fun 2003 (David Stroud)
10. 08:53 PM - Re: 0-235 IN A W-8 (Bill newkirk)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Tailwind-Elev balance stuff |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: Fred Weaver <Mytyweav@flash.net>
Earl.... Putting a little weight in it to static balance it is not a
bad thing. Just makes a good thing a little better. Especially if you
intend to push the throttle forward.....
:) Weav
On Saturday, January 25, 2003, at 11:37 AM, Earl Luce wrote:
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Earl Luce"
> <luceair@worldnet.att.net>
>
> About the elevator balance....................... This is not a static
> balance with weight installed , it is an aerodynamic balance which
> takes the
> load off the stick forces and counters any modes of flutter. Wittman
> never
> put any weight in it .
> Earl Luce
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill newkirk" <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
> To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
>
>
>> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bill newkirk"
>> <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
>>
>> Thanks, Dave.
>>
>> Bill Newkirk
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Magaw" <dmagaw@att.net>
>> To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
>>
>>
>>> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "David Magaw" <dmagaw@att.net>
>>>
>>> The portion of the elevator that is forward of the hinge (I don't know
>> what
>>> it is called specifically--it is the counter tab at the outer end) has
>> lead
>>> in it to balance the elevator with the balance point being the hinge
> line
>>> (the center of the front elevator tube that has the hinges on it).
>>> This
>> is
>>> done taking into account the weight of the fabric and paint, since
>>> that
>> will
>>> add more weight to the back portion of the elevator (ie behind the
>>> hinge
>>> line). Since I put the lead in before covering, I had taken a swatch
>>> of
>>> covering that I had from another plane, weighed it and calculated the
> area
>>> and thus the weight and moment for the covering of the elevator.
>>> Added
>> lead
>>> to the front of the tab to balance. It came out in the end perfectly,
>>> although I could have drilled the lead for fine tuning.
>>>
>>> Does this help?
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Bill newkirk" <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
>>> To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
>>>
>>>
>>>> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bill newkirk"
> <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
>>>>
>>>> DAVE;
>>>> I don't know what you mean when you say you "balanced the elevator at
>> the
>>>> hinge line(with covering)." Please enlighten me.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Bill Newkirk
>>>> Fresno CA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "David Magaw" <dmagaw@att.net>
>>>> To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "David Magaw" <dmagaw@att.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> I only sized the tailfeathers to the W-10 size, but rounded the
>> leading
>>>>> outer corner to look more W-8 style rather than the sharp corner of
>> the
>>>>> W-10. I have the counter weight portion just like the W-10, and I
>>>> balanced
>>>>> the elevator at the hinge line (with covering). The leading edge of
>> the
>>>>> horizontal stab, because of the slightly increased size, is ahead of
>> the
>>>>> place where it normally bolts to the fuselage. I just used a
> locking
>>>>> nutplate in the stab and bolt through from inside the fuselage. The
>>>>> vertical stab and rudder are sized to the same area as the W-10
>>> (slightly
>>>>> larger than W-8), but again had the rounded leading corner per W-8
>>> style.
>>>>> You can see pics of my plane on the Unofficial tailwind site under
>>> N202Q.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Bill newkirk" <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
>>>>> To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bill newkirk"
>>> <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DAVE;
>>>>>> Thanks for your reply.
>>>>>> How much modification have you done to the tail feathers?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill Newkirk
>>>>>> Fresno
>>>>>> N13BN (Murphy Rebel)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "David Magaw" <dmagaw@att.net>
>>>>>> To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "David Magaw"
>> <dmagaw@att.net>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill: I have a W-8 (but with W-10 tailfeathers and modified
> W-10
>>>>>> controls)
>>>>>>> that I flew with an O-235 for a year (156 hours) both long cross
>>>> country
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> local flights. It is a delightful plane to fly. Max speed was
>>> about
>>>>> 157
>>>>>>> MPH, but I think I could have gained a few MPH with a prop with
> a
>>>> little
>>>>>>> less pitch, and perhaps a little cleanup on the airframe here
> and
>>>> there.
>>>>>> My
>>>>>>> biggest complaint was that at gross (1300#, mty was 800#) and
>> higher
>>>>>> density
>>>>>>> altitudes, the takeoff and climb performance was much like a
>> Cessna
>>>> 150.
>>>>>>> Again, some prop mods could have improved that some. But I want
>> to
>>> be
>>>>>> able
>>>>>>> to fly out of Tahoe and places in New Mexico and Colorado on hot
>>> days
>>>>> with
>>>>>>> two people and baggage and still have fuel to get somewhere.
> The
>>>> O-235
>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> not give safe performance with those conditions, in my opinion.
>>>>>> Therefore,
>>>>>>> I am in the process of converting to a 150 HP O-320. It will
> fit
>>>> right
>>>>> in
>>>>>>> and the weight is not much more. I am going to add an auxiliary
>>> fuel
>>>>> tank
>>>>>>> behind the seat, also will help with the W&B.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>> N202Q
>>>>>>> W-8+
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I appreciated Boud's response to the question of a 320 in a
> W8.
>>> How
>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> an O-235. I have one and have dis-assembled it for
> rebuilding.
>> I
>>>>> have
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> W8/W9 to put it in.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bill Newkirk,
>>>>>>>> Fresno, CA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Boud Kuenen" <bkuenen@horizonaero.com>
>>>>>>>> To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-320 installed in W-8
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Boud Kuenen"
>>>>>>>> <bkuenen@horizonaero.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gary,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The W-8 airframe is about 7 inches shorter than a W-10 and
> it
>>> has
>>>>> less
>>>>>>>>> horizontal stabilizer area as well as different design
>>> horizontal
>>>>>>>> stabilizer
>>>>>>>>> incidence. If you assume that your weight and balance will
> be
>>> OK
>>>>>> (which
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> won't), the higher speed will cause a higher wing torsion
>> moment
>>>> on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> airframe which will require a greater balancing force from
> the
>>>>>>> horizontal
>>>>>>>>> stabilizer. This means you will have to reset the leading
>> edge
>>> of
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> tail
>>>>>>>>> down. This will cause greater trim drag, and reduce the
>> amount
>>> of
>>>>>>>> nose-down
>>>>>>>>> force available for such tings as high angle of attach
>> recovery.
>>>>> The
>>>>>>> net
>>>>>>>>> increase in airspeed will not be what you might expect and
> you
>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> substantialy reduce the stability of the airplane. In
>> certified
>>>>>>> airplanes
>>>>>>>>> that went to bigger engines over the years, (like cessna 210
>> and
>>>>> Piper
>>>>>>>>> Comanche) the solution was/is a complicated system of
> balance
>>>>> springs
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> bob weights attached to the elevator system; certainly not
>> what
>>>> you
>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> put in a Tailwind. If you compute the numbers on horsepower
>>> only,
>>>>>>> (forget
>>>>>>>>> increased weight, cooling drag, trim drag, propeller
>> efficiency,
>>>>> etc.)
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> expected speed increase from a 150 hp engine would be about
>> 18%,
>>>> but
>>>>>>> given
>>>>>>>>> everything else thats involved, it probably wouldn't even be
>>> 10%.
>>>>>> Also
>>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>>>> you would have an airplane that is less stable, feel
> sluggish
>> on
>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> controls (especially in pitch), have less useful load and
>> range,
>>>>> etc.,
>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>> See why Steve said, "keep it light"? In my opinion, a W-8
> is
>>> one
>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> best airplanes ever designed for 85-100 hp, keep it that
> way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Boud Kuenen
>>>>>>>>> NX888WT
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Gary Fincher" <backcountry@peedeeworld.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Tailwind-List: 0-320 installed in W-8
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Gary Fincher"
>>>>>>>>> <backcountry@peedeeworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have a W-8 with a C-90 and am interested in installing a
>>>> 0-320.
>>>>> I
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> told that the W-8 wasn't designed for the 0-320 to be
>> installed.
>>>> Is
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>> any out there flying? If so what needs to be done? Any
> replies
>>>> will
>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> appreciated. Thanks, Gary Fincher
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 2
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--> Tailwind-List message posted by: Rick and Cindy <rcaviate@ne.infi.net>
I got word from SAA prez Paul Poberezny that he needs to know if there
will be a Tailwind forum at the Urbana IL SAA gathering on 6-13 thru 15
'03, and he needs to know within a week so he can publish it in the
spring '03 issue of "To Fly".
We need a volunteer or two and a back up. Any takers? I did it last
year, it was fun! Also, give your forum a name if you can. Last year we
simply called it a "Tailwind question and answer period".
Let us know as soon as you can if you want to do this for the Tailwind.
Rick
N241SW
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: SAA Urbana '03 |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "flamini2" <flamini2@attbi.com>
Rick,
i plan on being there and could serve.
Dennis Flamini N564DF
564 Aberdeen
Frankfort, IL 60423
815-464-1869
cell 815-693-2615
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick and Cindy" <rcaviate@ne.infi.net>
Subject: Tailwind-List: SAA Urbana '03
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Rick and Cindy <rcaviate@ne.infi.net>
>
> I got word from SAA prez Paul Poberezny that he needs to know if there
> will be a Tailwind forum at the Urbana IL SAA gathering on 6-13 thru 15
> '03, and he needs to know within a week so he can publish it in the
> spring '03 issue of "To Fly".
> We need a volunteer or two and a back up. Any takers? I did it last
> year, it was fun! Also, give your forum a name if you can. Last year we
> simply called it a "Tailwind question and answer period".
> Let us know as soon as you can if you want to do this for the Tailwind.
> Rick
> N241SW
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: SAA Urbana '03 |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: Rick and Cindy <rcaviate@ne.infi.net>
Dennis: Thanks, What would you like to title the forum for this year?
Rick
N241SW
flamini2 wrote:
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "flamini2" <flamini2@attbi.com>
>
> Rick,
> i plan on being there and could serve.
> Dennis Flamini N564DF
> 564 Aberdeen
> Frankfort, IL 60423
> 815-464-1869
> cell 815-693-2615
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rick and Cindy" <rcaviate@ne.infi.net>
> To: "Tailwind discussion group" <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Tailwind-List: SAA Urbana '03
>
> > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Rick and Cindy <rcaviate@ne.infi.net>
> >
> > I got word from SAA prez Paul Poberezny that he needs to know if there
> > will be a Tailwind forum at the Urbana IL SAA gathering on 6-13 thru 15
> > '03, and he needs to know within a week so he can publish it in the
> > spring '03 issue of "To Fly".
> > We need a volunteer or two and a back up. Any takers? I did it last
> > year, it was fun! Also, give your forum a name if you can. Last year we
> > simply called it a "Tailwind question and answer period".
> > Let us know as soon as you can if you want to do this for the Tailwind.
> > Rick
> > N241SW
> >
> >
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: SAA Urbana '03 |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com>
Rick, count me in as well . At least three other TWs from up here will be
there. Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick and Cindy" <rcaviate@ne.infi.net>
Subject: Tailwind-List: SAA Urbana '03
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Rick and Cindy <rcaviate@ne.infi.net>
>
> I got word from SAA prez Paul Poberezny that he needs to know if there
> will be a Tailwind forum at the Urbana IL SAA gathering on 6-13 thru 15
> '03, and he needs to know within a week so he can publish it in the
> spring '03 issue of "To Fly".
> We need a volunteer or two and a back up. Any takers? I did it last
> year, it was fun! Also, give your forum a name if you can. Last year we
> simply called it a "Tailwind question and answer period".
> Let us know as soon as you can if you want to do this for the Tailwind.
> Rick
> N241SW
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: SAA Urbana '03 |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "flamini2" <flamini2@attbi.com>
Good to see JC on board for SSA at Urbana, how about
"Old Eagles Tailwind rides and short meeting"
for a forum name. What do you think Jim?
i will do the rides and you can tell them how to make one!!!
Dennis Flamini N564DF race#53 Chicago
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick and Cindy" <rcaviate@ne.infi.net>
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: SAA Urbana '03
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Rick and Cindy <rcaviate@ne.infi.net>
>
> Dennis: Thanks, What would you like to title the forum for this year?
> Rick
> N241SW
>
> flamini2 wrote:
>
> > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "flamini2" <flamini2@attbi.com>
> >
> > Rick,
> > i plan on being there and could serve.
> > Dennis Flamini N564DF
> > 564 Aberdeen
> > Frankfort, IL 60423
> > 815-464-1869
> > cell 815-693-2615
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rick and Cindy" <rcaviate@ne.infi.net>
> > To: "Tailwind discussion group" <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Tailwind-List: SAA Urbana '03
> >
> > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Rick and Cindy
<rcaviate@ne.infi.net>
> > >
> > > I got word from SAA prez Paul Poberezny that he needs to know if there
> > > will be a Tailwind forum at the Urbana IL SAA gathering on 6-13 thru
15
> > > '03, and he needs to know within a week so he can publish it in the
> > > spring '03 issue of "To Fly".
> > > We need a volunteer or two and a back up. Any takers? I did it last
> > > year, it was fun! Also, give your forum a name if you can. Last year
we
> > > simply called it a "Tailwind question and answer period".
> > > Let us know as soon as you can if you want to do this for the
Tailwind.
> > > Rick
> > > N241SW
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: SAA Urbana '03 |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: Rick and Cindy <rcaviate@ne.infi.net>
Dennis and Jim: Thanks for stepping up to the plate, Dennis will organize rides
in the Tailwind (mine will be available if needed) and Jim will take charge of
answering questions. Dennis, would you please prepare a few opening remarks and
take charge of getting the show going. Thanks again, guys, I know we all enjoyed
last years forum and this year sounds like even better.
The name for the forum will be "Old Eagles, 50th anniversary of the Tailwind".
Rick
N241SW
flamini2 wrote:
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "flamini2" <flamini2@attbi.com>
>
> Good to see JC on board for SSA at Urbana, how about
> "Old Eagles Tailwind rides and short meeting"
> for a forum name. What do you think Jim?
> i will do the rides and you can tell them how to make one!!!
> Dennis Flamini N564DF race#53 Chicago
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rick and Cindy" <rcaviate@ne.infi.net>
> To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: SAA Urbana '03
>
> > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Rick and Cindy <rcaviate@ne.infi.net>
> >
> > Dennis: Thanks, What would you like to title the forum for this year?
> > Rick
> > N241SW
> >
> > flamini2 wrote:
> >
> > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "flamini2" <flamini2@attbi.com>
> > >
> > > Rick,
> > > i plan on being there and could serve.
> > > Dennis Flamini N564DF
> > > 564 Aberdeen
> > > Frankfort, IL 60423
> > > 815-464-1869
> > > cell 815-693-2615
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Rick and Cindy" <rcaviate@ne.infi.net>
> > > To: "Tailwind discussion group" <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Tailwind-List: SAA Urbana '03
> > >
> > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Rick and Cindy
> <rcaviate@ne.infi.net>
> > > >
> > > > I got word from SAA prez Paul Poberezny that he needs to know if there
> > > > will be a Tailwind forum at the Urbana IL SAA gathering on 6-13 thru
> 15
> > > > '03, and he needs to know within a week so he can publish it in the
> > > > spring '03 issue of "To Fly".
> > > > We need a volunteer or two and a back up. Any takers? I did it last
> > > > year, it was fun! Also, give your forum a name if you can. Last year
> we
> > > > simply called it a "Tailwind question and answer period".
> > > > Let us know as soon as you can if you want to do this for the
> Tailwind.
> > > > Rick
> > > > N241SW
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | [Fwd: [Fwd: [TailwindForum] O-O update]] |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: Rick and Cindy <rcaviate@ne.infi.net>
Attached is copy of message to Paul P. regarding the Tailwind forum at
SAA '03. Dennis, I'll need your US mail address as Wes Schmidt will want
to get in touch with the people putting on the forum. I already have
yours, Jim.
Dennis' idea to offer rides is absolutely great! Any of us who are
planning to be there with Tailwinds please let him know if you're
willing to help with giving rides. He's probably going to need it as I
suspect the line will be long!!
Rick
N241SW
From: Rick and Cindy <rcaviate@ne.infi.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: [TailwindForum] O-O update]
My friend Paul: Dennis Flamini and Jim Clement will be in charge of the
Tailwind forum at SAA '03. Dennis will give opening remarks and Jim will
answer questions. Also, in honor of the Tailwinds 50th anniversary,
we'll be giving rides to interested SAAers, Dennis will be in charge of
this activity. I'm sure there will be several Tailwinders willing to
participate.
The name of the forum will be "Old Eagles, 50th anniversary of the
Tailwind".
I'll get Dennis' and Jim's mailing address so Wes can get in touch with
them.
Many thanks for the fine job you and your staff are doing with the SAA.
Rick Crosslin
SAA 877
Wittman Tailwind N393RC
O-O II N241SW
EAARedOne@aol.com wrote:
> Rick,
>
> Thanks for the update - sounds like you are moving right along. I
> could now view the photos - got the mesage that file was too large for
> AOL. Maybe you could send me some "real" photos when you have time.
> Attending Sun ' n Fun sounds like a great idea. We'll be there.
>
> Also, do you plan on a forum for the Urbana get together? We would
> have to know within a week or so, so that we can publish it in the
> next issue of TO FLY which will be going in the mail the second week
> of February.
>
> Look forward to hearing from you.
>
> Paul
My friend Paul: Dennis Flamini and Jim Clement will be in charge of the
Tailwind forum at SAA '03. Dennis will give opening remarks and Jim will
answer questions. Also, in honor of the Tailwinds 50th anniversary, we'll
be giving rides to interested SAAers, Dennis will be in charge of this
activity. I'm sure there will be several Tailwinders willing to participate.
The name of the forum will be "Old Eagles, 50th anniversary of the
Tailwind".
I'll get Dennis' and Jim's mailing address so Wes can get in touch
with them.
Many thanks for the fine job you and your staff are doing with the
SAA.
Rick Crosslin
SAA 877
Wittman Tailwind N393RC
O-O II N241SW
EAARedOne@aol.com wrote:
Rick,
Thanks for the update - sounds
like you are moving right along. I could now view the photos - got
the mesage that file was too large for AOL. Maybe you could send
me some "real" photos when you have time. Attending Sun ' n Fun sounds
like a great idea. We'll be there.
Also, do you plan on a forum
for the Urbana get together? We would have to know within a week or so,
so that we can publish it in the next issue of TO FLY which will be going
in the mail the second week of February.
Look forward to hearing from
you.
Paul
Message 9
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--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "David Stroud" <davestroud@rogers.com>
Giday Lads. I've been lurking on the list for a few months, having some interest
in the Tailwind or
perhaps some derivitve thereof for a next project. I'm a friend of Jack Steele
of Brockville, Canada
who has been flying his Tailwind over 20 years now.
We ( girlfriend and I ) attend Sun N Fun each year and camp in our trailer in one
of the main public
campgrounds. Last year we hosted an evening BBQ at our trailer and had 56 attendees.
BBQ Pork
sandwiches, cole slaw, potato salad and as many beverages of your choice, all for
a donation.
We had quite a mix of backgrounds and interests among the attendees including Tailwinds,
Davis',
Christavias, Auto conversion xperts, turbo people, Subaru people, kit builders,
composite types,
expert welders and in fact, experts in general and most anything inbetween....
We started around 4pm and quit around 11. I'm guessing that you Tailwind types
may have some
evening planned on your own but, if you don't and might like to attend, please
let me know. It is an
RSVP thing as we have to buy the stuff ahead of time. Last year 56 out of 60 RSVP's
showed
up and I about broke even money wise so I think it was a good thing. Perhaps let
me know if you're
interested? SNF this year goes from Wednesday, the 2nd. to Tuesday so we'd likely
be doing it on
Thursday or Friday.
Dave Stroud
L 16 B replica (Christavia)
C-FDWS Ottawa, Canada
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: 0-235 IN A W-8 |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bill newkirk" <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
If the elevators are not balanced statically, how does one proceed to
balance them aerodynamically? Or, do I just leave well-enough alone?
Bill Newkirk
Fresno, CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Earl Luce" <luceair@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Earl Luce"
<luceair@worldnet.att.net>
>
> About the elevator balance....................... This is not a static
> balance with weight installed , it is an aerodynamic balance which takes
the
> load off the stick forces and counters any modes of flutter. Wittman never
> put any weight in it .
> Earl Luce
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill newkirk" <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
> To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
>
>
> > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bill newkirk" <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
> >
> > Thanks, Dave.
> >
> > Bill Newkirk
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Magaw" <dmagaw@att.net>
> > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
> >
> >
> > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "David Magaw" <dmagaw@att.net>
> > >
> > > The portion of the elevator that is forward of the hinge (I don't know
> > what
> > > it is called specifically--it is the counter tab at the outer end) has
> > lead
> > > in it to balance the elevator with the balance point being the hinge
> line
> > > (the center of the front elevator tube that has the hinges on it).
This
> > is
> > > done taking into account the weight of the fabric and paint, since
that
> > will
> > > add more weight to the back portion of the elevator (ie behind the
hinge
> > > line). Since I put the lead in before covering, I had taken a swatch
of
> > > covering that I had from another plane, weighed it and calculated the
> area
> > > and thus the weight and moment for the covering of the elevator.
Added
> > lead
> > > to the front of the tab to balance. It came out in the end perfectly,
> > > although I could have drilled the lead for fine tuning.
> > >
> > > Does this help?
> > > Dave
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Bill newkirk" <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
> > > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bill newkirk"
> <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
> > > >
> > > > DAVE;
> > > > I don't know what you mean when you say you "balanced the elevator
at
> > the
> > > > hinge line(with covering)." Please enlighten me.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Bill Newkirk
> > > > Fresno CA
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "David Magaw" <dmagaw@att.net>
> > > > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "David Magaw"
<dmagaw@att.net>
> > > > >
> > > > > I only sized the tailfeathers to the W-10 size, but rounded the
> > leading
> > > > > outer corner to look more W-8 style rather than the sharp corner
of
> > the
> > > > > W-10. I have the counter weight portion just like the W-10, and I
> > > > balanced
> > > > > the elevator at the hinge line (with covering). The leading edge
of
> > the
> > > > > horizontal stab, because of the slightly increased size, is ahead
of
> > the
> > > > > place where it normally bolts to the fuselage. I just used a
> locking
> > > > > nutplate in the stab and bolt through from inside the fuselage.
The
> > > > > vertical stab and rudder are sized to the same area as the W-10
> > > (slightly
> > > > > larger than W-8), but again had the rounded leading corner per W-8
> > > style.
> > > > > You can see pics of my plane on the Unofficial tailwind site under
> > > N202Q.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dave
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Bill newkirk" <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
> > > > > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bill newkirk"
> > > <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > DAVE;
> > > > > > Thanks for your reply.
> > > > > > How much modification have you done to the tail feathers?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bill Newkirk
> > > > > > Fresno
> > > > > > N13BN (Murphy Rebel)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "David Magaw" <dmagaw@att.net>
> > > > > > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "David Magaw"
> > <dmagaw@att.net>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill: I have a W-8 (but with W-10 tailfeathers and modified
> W-10
> > > > > > controls)
> > > > > > > that I flew with an O-235 for a year (156 hours) both long
cross
> > > > country
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > local flights. It is a delightful plane to fly. Max speed
was
> > > about
> > > > > 157
> > > > > > > MPH, but I think I could have gained a few MPH with a prop
with
> a
> > > > little
> > > > > > > less pitch, and perhaps a little cleanup on the airframe here
> and
> > > > there.
> > > > > > My
> > > > > > > biggest complaint was that at gross (1300#, mty was 800#) and
> > higher
> > > > > > density
> > > > > > > altitudes, the takeoff and climb performance was much like a
> > Cessna
> > > > 150.
> > > > > > > Again, some prop mods could have improved that some. But I
want
> > to
> > > be
> > > > > > able
> > > > > > > to fly out of Tahoe and places in New Mexico and Colorado on
hot
> > > days
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > two people and baggage and still have fuel to get somewhere.
> The
> > > > O-235
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > not give safe performance with those conditions, in my
opinion.
> > > > > > Therefore,
> > > > > > > I am in the process of converting to a 150 HP O-320. It will
> fit
> > > > right
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > and the weight is not much more. I am going to add an
auxiliary
> > > fuel
> > > > > tank
> > > > > > > behind the seat, also will help with the W&B.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dave
> > > > > > > N202Q
> > > > > > > W-8+
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I appreciated Boud's response to the question of a 320 in a
> W8.
> > > How
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > an O-235. I have one and have dis-assembled it for
> rebuilding.
> > I
> > > > > have
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > W8/W9 to put it in.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bill Newkirk,
> > > > > > > > Fresno, CA
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "Boud Kuenen" <bkuenen@horizonaero.com>
> > > > > > > > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-320 installed in W-8
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Boud Kuenen"
> > > > > > > > <bkuenen@horizonaero.com>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Gary,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The W-8 airframe is about 7 inches shorter than a W-10 and
> it
> > > has
> > > > > less
> > > > > > > > > horizontal stabilizer area as well as different design
> > > horizontal
> > > > > > > > stabilizer
> > > > > > > > > incidence. If you assume that your weight and balance
will
> be
> > > OK
> > > > > > (which
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > won't), the higher speed will cause a higher wing torsion
> > moment
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > airframe which will require a greater balancing force from
> the
> > > > > > > horizontal
> > > > > > > > > stabilizer. This means you will have to reset the leading
> > edge
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > tail
> > > > > > > > > down. This will cause greater trim drag, and reduce the
> > amount
> > > of
> > > > > > > > nose-down
> > > > > > > > > force available for such tings as high angle of attach
> > recovery.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > > net
> > > > > > > > > increase in airspeed will not be what you might expect and
> you
> > > > will
> > > > > > > > > substantialy reduce the stability of the airplane. In
> > certified
> > > > > > > airplanes
> > > > > > > > > that went to bigger engines over the years, (like cessna
210
> > and
> > > > > Piper
> > > > > > > > > Comanche) the solution was/is a complicated system of
> balance
> > > > > springs
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > bob weights attached to the elevator system; certainly not
> > what
> > > > you
> > > > > > want
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > put in a Tailwind. If you compute the numbers on
horsepower
> > > only,
> > > > > > > (forget
> > > > > > > > > increased weight, cooling drag, trim drag, propeller
> > efficiency,
> > > > > etc.)
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > expected speed increase from a 150 hp engine would be
about
> > 18%,
> > > > but
> > > > > > > given
> > > > > > > > > everything else thats involved, it probably wouldn't even
be
> > > 10%.
> > > > > > Also
> > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > you would have an airplane that is less stable, feel
> sluggish
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > controls (especially in pitch), have less useful load and
> > range,
> > > > > etc.,
> > > > > > > > etc.
> > > > > > > > > See why Steve said, "keep it light"? In my opinion, a W-8
> is
> > > one
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > best airplanes ever designed for 85-100 hp, keep it that
> way.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Boud Kuenen
> > > > > > > > > NX888WT
> > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > From: "Gary Fincher" <backcountry@peedeeworld.net>
> > > > > > > > > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Tailwind-List: 0-320 installed in W-8
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Gary Fincher"
> > > > > > > > > <backcountry@peedeeworld.net>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have a W-8 with a C-90 and am interested in installing
a
> > > > 0-320.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > told that the W-8 wasn't designed for the 0-320 to be
> > installed.
> > > > Is
> > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > any out there flying? If so what needs to be done? Any
> replies
> > > > will
> > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > appreciated. Thanks, Gary Fincher
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
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