Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:59 AM - Re: Welding/Brazing (Estelle Danner)
2. 06:44 AM - Re: Welding/Brazing (Cy Galley)
3. 12:28 PM - Re: Clipped wings (Eric Schlanser)
4. 01:01 PM - Landing the TW (Jerry Hey)
5. 02:49 PM - Re: Clipped wings (Jim and Donna Clement)
6. 04:29 PM - Insurance Carrier (William Bernard)
7. 05:14 PM - Re: [TailwindForum] Insurance Carrier (flamini2)
8. 05:30 PM - Re: Insurance Carrier (Jim and Donna Clement)
9. 07:00 PM - Re: Clipped wings (Jerry Hey)
10. 07:12 PM - Re: Clipped wings (Jim and Donna Clement)
11. 10:05 PM - Re: [TailwindForum] TIG problem (flamini2)
12. 11:46 PM - Re: Clipped wings (Richard Lamb)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Welding/Brazing |
Its easy just practice practice practice and you will get it right just dont
practice on your tail feathers Bob Danner
----- Original Message -----
From: JB Selk
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 7:43 PM
Subject: Tailwind-List: Welding/Brazing
I am repairing the tailfeathers of a W8 and will need to put new 3/8" channel
in a few spots. I understand the channel was brazed to the tubing originally.
What are the options for joining new channel to the tubing? I have no welding
experience and am looking for the best/easiest way for a beginner to do this
with a minimum of equipment. I've read that MIG is difficult, TIG is expensive,
brazing can also be difficult, etc. Would a small wire feed unit work? No
welding of tubing is required, just replacement of some channel stringers on
the elevators, horizontal and vertical stabilizers.
Thank you for any and all replies.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Welding/Brazing |
The Crosley block is a very poor brazing example as they had so many problems that
they quickly replaced it with a cast iron block. The Money Mite was designed
around the brazed block so they had to change the engine when the heavier
cast iron block came along.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick and Cindy
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Welding/Brazing
JB: Brazing is not particularly difficult, but neither is hot lapping Daytona
if you're Dick Petty. Seriously, if you want to learn, a halfway decent mentor
should be able to have you making good braze joints in a weekend.
If you just have a few braze repairs, it might be better to find a good welder
(brazer?) and get him and your project together for a few hours.
There is some argument that brazing of 4130 is bad, this may be technically correct,
although I personally have my doubts, and I don't really give a damn who
wrote what book about it. As a practical matter, I don't know of any Tailwinds
that have fallen out of the sky for this reason. I've done a lot of brazing,
the company I work for has developed it to a fine art, and the braze applications
on the Tailwind are just fine. The Crosley engine block was brazed together,
now there's a stressful application for brazing.
Rick
N241SW
----- Original Message -----
From: JB Selk
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 8:43 PM
Subject: Tailwind-List: Welding/Brazing
I am repairing the tailfeathers of a W8 and will need to put new 3/8" channel
in a few spots. I understand the channel was brazed to the tubing originally.
What are the options for joining new channel to the tubing? I have no welding
experience and am looking for the best/easiest way for a beginner to do this
with a minimum of equipment. I've read that MIG is difficult, TIG is expensive,
brazing can also be difficult, etc. Would a small wire feed unit work?
No welding of tubing is required, just replacement of some channel stringers
on the elevators, horizontal and vertical stabilizers.
Thank you for any and all replies.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Clipped wings |
Jim, If you aren't giving away any trade secrets, how much difference did it make
in top end speed? The CAFE test pilot declined to divulge his findings. Eric
- in Kalamazoo
Jim and Donna Clement <168x@merr.com> wrote: --> Tailwind-List message posted by:
"Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com>
The CAFE T/W had 23' wings vs.. 24' for a stock W10. Pattern speeds were
maybe 3 mph faster. It would still fly fairly flat at 15,500' and climb 500
fpm loaded over gross at that altitude. Racing the short wing would only
hurt on a short course like Reno where you are in a turn most of the time.
Never messed with the tail feathers, maybe improvement could be made using
carbon fiber skins. Jim C
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Hey"
Subject: Tailwind-List: Clipped wings
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Jerry Hey
>
> Jim , I know that the CAFE plane had a shortened wing span but I can't
> recall by how much. Did you eliminate any ribs? What was the effect
> on the landing speed? I do remember that the performance at
> altitude was not as good as the stock wing. If a TW were built
> expressly for the purpose of competing in Races such as Sun n Fun,
> would the clipped wing be a good idea. What about the plans tail
> feathers?
>
> Thanks, Jerry
>
>
---------------------------------
Message 4
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--> Tailwind-List message posted by: Jerry Hey <j-winddesigns@thegrid.net>
Today was one of those rare days in my life when the weather was good
and I had the freedom to take advantage of it. Got to the airport at
10 a.m. to discover that I had left on the switch to the electronic
ignition and had drained the battery. Fast forward to 12 noon and the
battery is charged up and so am I. Plan was to just set in the pattern
and shoot landings. There was a nine mph quartering cross wind. I
took off, shot through the pattern altitude like my mighty 0-200 was
rocket assisted. So I pulled back the power, pulled the nose up and
waited for it to slow down to 80 mph and to start losing altitude. All
this was just fine. By the time the altitude and speed had melted off I
had about a half mile final. No problem as I was the only one flying
today. I made a fairly decent landing and only when I applied power
and reached for the flap handle , did I realize that I had not used the
flaps. So I sat in the pattern for three more flapless landings.
Using no flaps but a slight amount of power I was able to make smooth
approaches between 75 and 80 mph. No problem with sinking. Touch down
might have been a little faster than with flaps but it was certainly no
big deal. I am not yet so cool that I can check airspeed after the
flair. The Tailwind is a very forgiving airplane or else I would be
in deep caca. Jerry
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Clipped wings |
I don't know the difference in top speed between the 23' and 24' wing. Both O320
TDs were 23' and both trigears were 24'. The CAFE TW was 216-217mph and the
24' trikes are about 208. I'm sure the nose gear slows it down some but not sure
about the additional foot of span. Will find out when the new TD is finished.
Jim C
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Schlanser
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Clipped wings
Jim, If you aren't giving away any trade secrets, how much difference did it
make in top end speed? The CAFE test pilot declined to divulge his findings. Eric
- in Kalamazoo
Jim and Donna Clement <168x@merr.com> wrote:
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com>
The CAFE T/W had 23' wings vs.. 24' for a stock W10. Pattern speeds were
maybe 3 mph faster. It would still fly fairly flat at 15,500' and climb 500
fpm loaded over gross at that altitude. Racing the short wing would only
hurt on a short course like Reno where you are in a turn most of the time.
Never messed with the tail feathers, maybe improvement could be made using
carbon fiber skins. Jim C
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Hey"
To:
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 8:36 AM
Subject: Tailwind-List: Clipped wings
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Jerry Hey
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Insurance Carrier |
Does anyone, especially someone with a tri-gear Tailwind, have their insurance
coverage with AIG? Apparently, the concept of a Tailwind on trycycle gear is difficult
for them to grasp.
My agent would like to know if there are any other examples.
Thanks
Bill
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: [TailwindForum] Insurance Carrier |
Try Delbene out of Midway apt Chicago.
i have used them for over 10 years, current premium is $888 for 25K hull.
Dennis Flamini N564DF race #53 Chicago
----- Original Message -----
From: dmagaw@att.net
To: TailwindForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [TailwindForum] Insurance Carrier
AIG just insured N168A, through Skysmith. I don't think I bothered to tell them
it was a trike vs. a taildragger though.
Dave
The Tailwind Forum group site is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TailwindForum
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance Carrier |
Bill, My two, Bob and Russ at Baraboo can account for about 5-600 hours of trouble
free flying. Malcomb must have at least 200 0n his. This might help.
Jim C
----- Original Message -----
From: William Bernard
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com ; TailwindForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 6:31 PM
Subject: Tailwind-List: Insurance Carrier
Does anyone, especially someone with a tri-gear Tailwind, have their insurance
coverage with AIG? Apparently, the concept of a Tailwind on trycycle gear is
difficult for them to grasp.
My agent would like to know if there are any other examples.
Thanks
Bill
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Clipped wings |
According to a small booklet that came with the W-8 plans the original
wing span was 22 1/2 feet. I had assumed that Steve made the wing
longer because he was not satisfied with the performance of the
original. But what aspect of performance? Top speed, stall speed,
high altitude? Does anyone know the real story? Jerry
On Tuesday, March 30, 2004, at 05:44 PM, Jim and Donna Clement wrote:
> I don't know the difference in top speed between the 23' and 24' wing.
> Both O320 TDs were 23' and both trigears were 24'. The CAFE TW was
> 216-217mph and the 24' trikes are about 208. I'm sure the nose gear
> slows it down some but not sure about the additional foot of span.
> Will find out when the new TD is finished.
> Jim C
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Eric Schlanser
> To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 2:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Clipped wings
>
> Jim, If you aren't giving away any trade secrets, how much difference
> did it make=A0in top end speed? The CAFE test pilot declined to=A0divulge
> his findings. Eric - in Kalamazoo
>
> Jim and Donna Clement <168x@merr.com> wrote:
>
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement"
> <168x@merr.com>
>
> The CAFE T/W had 23' wings vs.. 24' for a stock W10. Pattern speeds
> were
> maybe 3 mph faster. It would still fly fairly flat at 15,500' and
> climb 500
> fpm loaded over gross at that altitude. Racing the short wing would
> only
> hurt on a short course like Reno where you are in a turn most of the
> time.
> Never messed with the tail feathers, maybe improvement could be made
> using
> carbon fiber skins. Jim C
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jerry Hey"
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 8:36 AM
> Subject: Tailwind-List: Clipped wings
>
>
> > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Jerry Hey
> >
> > Jim , I know that the CAFE plane had a shortened wing span but I
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Clipped wings |
The original flat bottom was short, the curved bottom W8 was a little longer and
the new W10 tips added to a mix of the other two comes in at 24'
Jim C
----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry Hey
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Clipped wings
According to a small booklet that came with the W-8 plans the original wing span
was 22 1/2 feet. I had assumed that Steve made the wing longer because he
was not satisfied with the performance of the original. But what aspect of performance?
Top speed, stall speed, high altitude? Does anyone know the real story?
Jerry
On Tuesday, March 30, 2004, at 05:44 PM, Jim and Donna Clement wrote:
I don't know the difference in top speed between the 23' and 24' wing. Both
O320 TDs were 23' and both trigears were 24'. The CAFE TW was 216-217mph and
the 24' trikes are about 208. I'm sure the nose gear slows it down some but not
sure about the additional foot of span. Will find out when the new TD is finished.
Jim C
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Schlanser
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Clipped wings
Jim, If you aren't giving away any trade secrets, how much difference did it
make in top end speed? The CAFE test pilot declined to divulge his findings.
Eric - in Kalamazoo
Jim and Donna Clement <168x@merr.com> wrote:
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com>
The CAFE T/W had 23' wings vs.. 24' for a stock W10. Pattern speeds were
maybe 3 mph faster. It would still fly fairly flat at 15,500' and climb 500
fpm loaded over gross at that altitude. Racing the short wing would only
hurt on a short course like Reno where you are in a turn most of the time.
Never messed with the tail feathers, maybe improvement could be made using
carbon fiber skins. Jim C
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Hey"
To:
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 8:36 AM
Subject: Tailwind-List: Clipped wings
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Jerry Hey
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: [TailwindForum] TIG problem |
Jim,
i have done these thick sections with 2 torches working together, one just brings
the joint up to just below red hot and the other runs the weld.
They make a tip called a rosebud that spreads the heat over a large area
Dennis Flamini N564DF race #53 Chicago
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim A
To: TailwindForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 11:19 PM
Subject: [TailwindForum] TIG problem
I'm at the point of frustration. Welding the engine mount with
doubled tube ends for the landing gear. This the thickess metal and
largest heat sink portion I've welded on the TW so far. When I apply
more heat to get a puddle to form on this portion it will weld for
about a quarter inch then pooff a crater forms in the weld and a
ball of metal on my electrode. Stop change electrode clean weld
start welding poof again? Metal very clean and degreassed. Not
touching electrode to the puddle. Not sealing the last end of a
tube. ?? Whats going on ?? Remedy?? Thanks in advance for your input
gentlemen.
The Tailwind Forum group site is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TailwindForum
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Clipped wings |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb <n6228l@earthlink.net>
Jerry Hey wrote:
>
> According to a small booklet that came with the W-8 plans the original wing span
was 22 1/2 feet. I had assumed that Steve made the wing longer because he
was not satisfied with the performance of the original. But what aspect of performance?
Top speed, stall speed, high altitude? Does anyone know the real story?
Jerry
It all comes down to induced drag.
Induced drag is the drag that comes from generating lift.
Short blunt wings (low aspect ratio) suffer from higher induced drag.
Tip vortices are a large part of induced drag.
So reducing the size of the tip vortice should reduce induced drag.
(did that make any sense at all?)
Anyway, supposedly, the tip vortice effects about 1 chord at the end
of the wing panel. (Hence the short wing penalty? Greater percentage
of the total wing area is effected.)
Steve made the new W-10 wing tip have a very small tip chord (13 inches)
compared to the main airfoil.
So only the last foot or so of the wing panel is feeding the tip
vortice.
(?)
The lower drag can actually be measured - on manifild pressure.
It takes less power to fly a given speed at a given altitude.
Or, to heck with it, just go faster!
Of course, any time you can measurably reduce drag, the amount of
power required to maintain speed/altitude will be less.
That can show up some in climb preformnce, and better high altitude
performance.
Any help, Jerry?
The W-10 wing is a fascinating thing.
The tips are just the icing on the cake.
The center section / fuselage junction is the meat and potatoes. (MHO)
The notch in the root of the wing forms a shallow areodynamic
channel slot over the cabin and aft fuselage. I think that helps
keep the boundry layer on the top of the fuselage energetic enough
to produce (all that) lift.
It could also be studied as a forward swept wing because, strangely
enough, it is!
While the notch in the leading edge of the wing is a fairly short
part of the wing, the cut away area runs all the way across the top
of the cabin.
That's a fair percentage of the wing span, and it effectively moves
the wing root chord - aft - in the center part of the wing.
If the root chord is aft of mean aerodynamic chord, it's swept forward?
Might be one of the secrets of why the Tailwind flies a bit better than
expected. :)
Richard
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