---------------------------------------------------------- Tailwind-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 06/07/04: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:32 AM - Wet Wings (Phil Flaugher) 2. 03:38 PM - Re: Wet Wings (Robert Ardis) 3. 04:50 PM - Re: Wet Wings (Eric Schlanser) 4. 05:06 PM - Re: Wet Wings (Bruce E. Butts) 5. 06:50 PM - Re: Wet Wings (Phil Flaugher) 6. 07:13 PM - SAA Urbana (john) 7. 07:24 PM - Re: SAA Urbana (Jim and Donna Clement) 8. 07:27 PM - Re: Wet Wings (Jerry Hey) 9. 07:51 PM - Re: Wet Wings (Phil Flaugher) 10. 08:46 PM - Re: Wet Wings (Tom Cummings) 11. 08:56 PM - Top Longeron Splice (Tom Cummings) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:54 AM PST US From: "Phil Flaugher" Subject: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings Question from a novice... While viewing pictures it appeared to me that that the first five inboard ribs could be modified to provide a fuel bay with a form fitted tank between the front and rear spar..... Am I nuts? Why hasn't this been done? Phil ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:38:38 PM PST US From: "Robert Ardis" Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Robert Ardis" Phil, I don't think that is a big problem but gasoline leaking in a wooden wing has always been looked upon as not a good design. With the advent of composite tanks, it should not be a problem. Some Tailwinds are built with metal wings and the tanks are incorporated in the wings. Many years ago, there was a Tailwind here in North Texas that had the canted wing tip tanks. Seemed to work fine. >From: "Phil Flaugher" >Reply-To: tailwind-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings >Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 08:27:31 -0500 > >Question from a novice... >While viewing pictures it appeared to me that that the first five inboard >ribs could be modified to provide a fuel bay with a form fitted tank >between the front and rear spar..... >Am I nuts? Why hasn't this been done? > >Phil Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter to win a trip to NY http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:49 PM PST US From: Eric Schlanser Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings The numbers don't justify the effort in my opinion. The Tailwind wing is not very deep. So you do not get much fuel in them for the effort to build and plumb. Most aux tanks end up in the baggage area with a simple aux pump to bring the gas into the main tank. The Calbie Wood metal wings do have integral fuel tanks optional and some have them. Eric Robert Ardis wrote:--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Robert Ardis" Phil, I don't think that is a big problem but gasoline leaking in a wooden wing has always been looked upon as not a good design. With the advent of composite tanks, it should not be a problem. Some Tailwinds are built with metal wings and the tanks are incorporated in the wings. Many years ago, there was a Tailwind here in North Texas that had the canted wing tip tanks. Seemed to work fine. >From: "Phil Flaugher" >Reply-To: tailwind-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings >Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 08:27:31 -0500 > >Question from a novice... >While viewing pictures it appeared to me that that the first five inboard >ribs could be modified to provide a fuel bay with a form fitted tank >between the front and rear spar..... >Am I nuts? Why hasn't this been done? > >Phil Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter to win a trip to NY http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/ --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:23 PM PST US From: "Bruce E. Butts" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bruce E. Butts" Earl Trimble has a metal winged Tailwind with wet wings. Met him at OSH last year, hope your'e planning on coming again this year Earl. I am making a Tailwind with metal wet wings but I am still building (making aluminum scrap is more like it). Bruce Butts Robert Ardis wrote: > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Robert Ardis" > > > > Phil, I don't think that is a big problem but gasoline leaking in a > wooden wing has always > been looked upon as not a good design. With the advent of composite > tanks, it should not > be a problem. Some Tailwinds are built with metal wings and the tanks > are incorporated in > the wings. Many years ago, there was a Tailwind here in North Texas > that had the canted > wing tip tanks. Seemed to work fine. > >> From: "Phil Flaugher" >> Reply-To: tailwind-list@matronics.com >> To: >> Subject: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings >> Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 08:27:31 -0500 >> >> Question from a novice... >> While viewing pictures it appeared to me that that the first five >> inboard ribs could be modified to provide a fuel bay with a form >> fitted tank between the front and rear spar..... >> Am I nuts? Why hasn't this been done? >> >> Phil > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter > to win a trip to NY > http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/ > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:59 PM PST US From: "Phil Flaugher" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Phil Flaugher" Thanks for the replies, guys. I appreciate the precautions BUT my desire to build the Tailwind is to achieve high speed and altitude for long distance flight. I know I will need turbo-normalizing and additional fuel. I would prefer to keep the cg as close to a non-consideration as possible and I like the wood wing. I agree that composites are the way to go and we have the perfect man for the job (Brian Alley). I do not have plans yet but believe there is probably room for a total of twenty to thirty gallons of gravity fed fuel. Ultimate goal: 200 mph cruise, 18,000 ft+, 1,000 mile range without an auxiliary fuel tank. I believe a rotary turbo engine, wet wings and a TruTrac ap w/ IFR GPS will do that. Can anyone provide me a rough rib template and the distance from the first rib to the closest rib to the strut? I would use this info to calculate volume available...... Thanks, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce E. Butts" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bruce E. Butts" > > Earl Trimble has a metal winged Tailwind with wet wings. Met him at OSH > last year, hope your'e planning on coming again this year Earl. > > I am making a Tailwind with metal wet wings but I am still building > (making aluminum scrap is more like it). > > Bruce Butts > > Robert Ardis wrote: > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Robert Ardis" > > > > > > > > > > Phil, I don't think that is a big problem but gasoline leaking in a > > wooden wing has always > > been looked upon as not a good design. With the advent of composite > > tanks, it should not > > be a problem. Some Tailwinds are built with metal wings and the tanks > > are incorporated in > > the wings. Many years ago, there was a Tailwind here in North Texas > > that had the canted > > wing tip tanks. Seemed to work fine. > > > >> From: "Phil Flaugher" > >> Reply-To: tailwind-list@matronics.com > >> To: > >> Subject: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings > >> Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 08:27:31 -0500 > >> > >> Question from a novice... > >> While viewing pictures it appeared to me that that the first five > >> inboard ribs could be modified to provide a fuel bay with a form > >> fitted tank between the front and rear spar..... > >> Am I nuts? Why hasn't this been done? > >> > >> Phil > > > > > > > > Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter > > to win a trip to NY > > http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ====== > ====== > ====== http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Tailwind-List.htm > ====== > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:50 PM PST US From: "john" Subject: Tailwind-List: SAA Urbana --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "john" Jim; If the weather gods are smiling, does the Baraboo gang plan on making Urbana this year? I would like to fly, as it is 8-1/2 hours by auto if you don't get stuck in Chicago due to an accident. It is always good to look at projects for ideas. Tomorrow I will start applying the color, so hope to have the fuselage painted in the next couple of days. I may be approaching the 90, 90 point on the project. JohnD Don't Archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:01 PM PST US From: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: SAA Urbana --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> John, The Baraboo gang is down to Russ only. Bob is out of town, I am without a airplane, Gary Volkman is on his way to Montana. George did get here from AZ about 7:00 tonight, he might be there. I might be able to use Bob's TW. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" Subject: Tailwind-List: SAA Urbana > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "john" > > Jim; If the weather gods are smiling, does the Baraboo gang plan on making > Urbana this year? I would like to fly, as it is 8-1/2 hours by auto if you > don't get stuck in Chicago due to an accident. It is always good to look at > projects for ideas. Tomorrow I will start applying the color, so hope to > have the fuselage painted in the next couple of days. I may be approaching > the 90, 90 point on the project. JohnD Don't Archive > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:35 PM PST US Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings From: Jerry Hey --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Jerry Hey Phil, I do believe that you can get 18 gallons in each wood wing. These will gravity feed to the main tank. Put check valves in the lines so that the fuel cannot flow from one wing to the other. A couple of years ago, I drew up such a system and even managed to get a flush fuel cap in each wing. A search of my hard drive did not turn up the drawings but they are there someplace. Probably saved under some screwy name that I cannot recall. I do remember a lot of the details. I will write more on this subject when I get back from SAA. Jerry On Monday, June 7, 2004, at 08:41 PM, Phil Flaugher wrote: > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Phil Flaugher" > > > Thanks for the replies, guys. > I appreciate the precautions BUT my desire to build the Tailwind is > to achieve high speed and altitude for long distance flight. I know > I will need turbo-normalizing and additional fuel. I would prefer to > keep the cg as close to a non-consideration as possible and I like > the wood wing. > I agree that composites are the way to go and we have the perfect > man for the job (Brian Alley). I do not have plans yet but believe > there is probably room for a total of twenty to thirty gallons of > gravity fed fuel. > Ultimate goal: 200 mph cruise, 18,000 ft+, 1,000 mile range without > an auxiliary fuel tank. I believe a rotary turbo engine, wet wings > and a TruTrac ap w/ IFR GPS will do that. > Can anyone provide me a rough rib template and the distance from the > first rib to the closest rib to the strut? I would use this info to > calculate volume available...... > Thanks, > Phil > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce E. Butts" > To: > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 7:05 PM > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings > > >> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bruce E. Butts" > >> >> Earl Trimble has a metal winged Tailwind with wet wings. Met him > at OSH >> last year, hope your'e planning on coming again this year Earl. >> >> I am making a Tailwind with metal wet wings but I am still > building >> (making aluminum scrap is more like it). >> >> Bruce Butts >> >> Robert Ardis wrote: >> >>> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Robert Ardis" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Phil, I don't think that is a big problem but gasoline leaking > in a >>> wooden wing has always >>> been looked upon as not a good design. With the advent of > composite >>> tanks, it should not >>> be a problem. Some Tailwinds are built with metal wings and the > tanks >>> are incorporated in >>> the wings. Many years ago, there was a Tailwind here in North > Texas >>> that had the canted >>> wing tip tanks. Seemed to work fine. >>> >>>> From: "Phil Flaugher" >>>> Reply-To: tailwind-list@matronics.com >>>> To: >>>> Subject: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings >>>> Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 08:27:31 -0500 >>>> >>>> Question from a novice... >>>> While viewing pictures it appeared to me that that the first > five >>>> inboard ribs could be modified to provide a fuel bay with a > form >>>> fitted tank between the front and rear spar..... >>>> Am I nuts? Why hasn't this been done? >>>> >>>> Phil >>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________________________________ >>> Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and > enter >>> to win a trip to NY >>> > http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/ > direct/01/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > ====== >> > ====== >> > ====== > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Tailwind-List.htm >> > ====== >> >> >> >> > > > _- > ======================================================================= > > _- > ======================================================================= > > _- > ======================================================================= > > _- > ======================================================================= > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:05 PM PST US From: "Phil Flaugher" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Phil Flaugher" Thanks!! Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Hey" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Jerry Hey > > Phil, I do believe that you can get 18 gallons in each wood wing. > These will gravity feed to the main tank. Put check valves in the > lines so that the fuel cannot flow from one wing to the other. A > couple of years ago, I drew up such a system and even managed to get a > flush fuel cap in each wing. A search of my hard drive did not turn up > the drawings but they are there someplace. Probably saved under some > screwy name that I cannot recall. I do remember a lot of the > details. I will write more on this subject when I get back from SAA. > Jerry > > > On Monday, June 7, 2004, at 08:41 PM, Phil Flaugher wrote: > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Phil Flaugher" > > > > > > Thanks for the replies, guys. > > I appreciate the precautions BUT my desire to build the Tailwind is > > to achieve high speed and altitude for long distance flight. I know > > I will need turbo-normalizing and additional fuel. I would prefer to > > keep the cg as close to a non-consideration as possible and I like > > the wood wing. > > I agree that composites are the way to go and we have the perfect > > man for the job (Brian Alley). I do not have plans yet but believe > > there is probably room for a total of twenty to thirty gallons of > > gravity fed fuel. > > Ultimate goal: 200 mph cruise, 18,000 ft+, 1,000 mile range without > > an auxiliary fuel tank. I believe a rotary turbo engine, wet wings > > and a TruTrac ap w/ IFR GPS will do that. > > Can anyone provide me a rough rib template and the distance from the > > first rib to the closest rib to the strut? I would use this info to > > calculate volume available...... > > Thanks, > > Phil > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bruce E. Butts" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 7:05 PM > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings > > > > > >> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bruce E. Butts" > > > >> > >> Earl Trimble has a metal winged Tailwind with wet wings. Met him > > at OSH > >> last year, hope your'e planning on coming again this year Earl. > >> > >> I am making a Tailwind with metal wet wings but I am still > > building > >> (making aluminum scrap is more like it). > >> > >> Bruce Butts > >> > >> Robert Ardis wrote: > >> > >>> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Robert Ardis" > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Phil, I don't think that is a big problem but gasoline leaking > > in a > >>> wooden wing has always > >>> been looked upon as not a good design. With the advent of > > composite > >>> tanks, it should not > >>> be a problem. Some Tailwinds are built with metal wings and the > > tanks > >>> are incorporated in > >>> the wings. Many years ago, there was a Tailwind here in North > > Texas > >>> that had the canted > >>> wing tip tanks. Seemed to work fine. > >>> > >>>> From: "Phil Flaugher" > >>>> Reply-To: tailwind-list@matronics.com > >>>> To: > >>>> Subject: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings > >>>> Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 08:27:31 -0500 > >>>> > >>>> Question from a novice... > >>>> While viewing pictures it appeared to me that that the first > > five > >>>> inboard ribs could be modified to provide a fuel bay with a > > form > >>>> fitted tank between the front and rear spar..... > >>>> Am I nuts? Why hasn't this been done? > >>>> > >>>> Phil > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > >>> Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and > > enter > >>> to win a trip to NY > >>> > > http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/ > > direct/01/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > ====== > >> > > ====== > >> > > ====== > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Tailwind-List.htm > >> > > ====== > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > _- > > ==================================================================== === > > > > _- > > ==================================================================== === > > > > _- > > ==================================================================== === > > > > _- > > ==================================================================== === > > > > > > > > > > > > ====== > ====== > ====== http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Tailwind-List.htm > ====== > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:25 PM PST US From: "Tom Cummings" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Tom Cummings" Since the Tailwind doesn't have any dihedral in the wings, would it benefit to make the fuel tanks with the bottom surface slanted to cause fuel to drain in an inboard direction? And use this in conjunction with one-way valves? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Hey" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Jerry Hey > > Phil, I do believe that you can get 18 gallons in each wood wing. > These will gravity feed to the main tank. Put check valves in the > lines so that the fuel cannot flow from one wing to the other. A > couple of years ago, I drew up such a system and even managed to get a > flush fuel cap in each wing. A search of my hard drive did not turn up > the drawings but they are there someplace. Probably saved under some > screwy name that I cannot recall. I do remember a lot of the > details. I will write more on this subject when I get back from SAA. > Jerry > > > On Monday, June 7, 2004, at 08:41 PM, Phil Flaugher wrote: > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Phil Flaugher" > > > > > > Thanks for the replies, guys. > > I appreciate the precautions BUT my desire to build the Tailwind is > > to achieve high speed and altitude for long distance flight. I know > > I will need turbo-normalizing and additional fuel. I would prefer to > > keep the cg as close to a non-consideration as possible and I like > > the wood wing. > > I agree that composites are the way to go and we have the perfect > > man for the job (Brian Alley). I do not have plans yet but believe > > there is probably room for a total of twenty to thirty gallons of > > gravity fed fuel. > > Ultimate goal: 200 mph cruise, 18,000 ft+, 1,000 mile range without > > an auxiliary fuel tank. I believe a rotary turbo engine, wet wings > > and a TruTrac ap w/ IFR GPS will do that. > > Can anyone provide me a rough rib template and the distance from the > > first rib to the closest rib to the strut? I would use this info to > > calculate volume available...... > > Thanks, > > Phil > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bruce E. Butts" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 7:05 PM > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings > > > > > >> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bruce E. Butts" > > > >> > >> Earl Trimble has a metal winged Tailwind with wet wings. Met him > > at OSH > >> last year, hope your'e planning on coming again this year Earl. > >> > >> I am making a Tailwind with metal wet wings but I am still > > building > >> (making aluminum scrap is more like it). > >> > >> Bruce Butts > >> > >> Robert Ardis wrote: > >> > >>> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Robert Ardis" > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Phil, I don't think that is a big problem but gasoline leaking > > in a > >>> wooden wing has always > >>> been looked upon as not a good design. With the advent of > > composite > >>> tanks, it should not > >>> be a problem. Some Tailwinds are built with metal wings and the > > tanks > >>> are incorporated in > >>> the wings. Many years ago, there was a Tailwind here in North > > Texas > >>> that had the canted > >>> wing tip tanks. Seemed to work fine. > >>> > >>>> From: "Phil Flaugher" > >>>> Reply-To: tailwind-list@matronics.com > >>>> To: > >>>> Subject: Tailwind-List: Wet Wings > >>>> Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 08:27:31 -0500 > >>>> > >>>> Question from a novice... > >>>> While viewing pictures it appeared to me that that the first > > five > >>>> inboard ribs could be modified to provide a fuel bay with a > > form > >>>> fitted tank between the front and rear spar..... > >>>> Am I nuts? Why hasn't this been done? > >>>> > >>>> Phil > >>> > >>> > >>> > > _________________________________________________________________ > >>> Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and > > enter > >>> to win a trip to NY > >>> > > http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/ > > direct/01/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > ====== > >> > > ====== > >> > > ====== > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Tailwind-List.htm > >> > > ====== > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > _- > > ======================================================================= > > > > _- > > ======================================================================= > > > > _- > > ======================================================================= > > > > _- > > ======================================================================= > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:13 PM PST US From: "Tom Cummings" Subject: Tailwind-List: Top Longeron Splice I was figuring how to order my tubing for the airframe and found that shipping in eight foot lengths could expedite delievery and reduce cost from Dillsburg. If I have the top longeron pieces cut into eight foot lengths, I determined that I would have to make the top longeron splice about one foot aft its present location on the plans. Is there any problem with moving the location of the splice? Tom