Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:46 AM - Re: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden flight and some related fuel questions (cgalley)
2. 07:19 AM - Re: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden flight and some related fuel questions (Rick)
3. 07:27 AM - Re: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden flight and som... (NorthernTailwind@aol.com)
4. 07:40 AM - Re: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden (Fred Weaver)
5. 09:02 AM - Re: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden flight and some related fuel questions (cgalley)
6. 11:27 AM - Re: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden flight and som... (Jack Steele)
7. 07:13 PM - Re: [TailwindForum] (unknown) (flamini2)
8. 09:10 PM - Re: Re: [TailwindForum] (unknown) (Dave Conrad)
9. 10:00 PM - Re: Re: [TailwindForum] (unknown) (flamini2)
10. 11:26 PM - Re: Therapy (red)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden flight |
and some related fuel questions
All 1948 Cessna 170s had a fuel pump on the C-145.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden flight
and some related fuel questions
Rogers:
I don't know of any O300 powered Tailwinds that have experienced the exact problems
you tell us of.
Few, if any O300 powered anythings are equipped with a fuel pump. By far most
of these engines would have been on C172s, which had no fuel pump.
I doubt anyone on this group can put their finger on a Tailwind that has had
an O300 with a fuel pump, although there are one or two members who are obsessed
with such details that may know of one.
The wooden prop provides far less flywheel than a metal one, and will therefore
stop windmilling at a higher speed. Likely the pilot slowed down when he had
difficulty, stopping the prop.
It is possible for an aircooled engine to seize when overheated, then unseize
when cool. This will likely be a piston to cylinder wall seizure and there will
be evidence of this on the cylinder walls. If the crank main bearings or big
end connecting rod bearings seized, the engine will likely stay seized.
We hate to hear of a Tailwind crashing, but we're glad the pilot escaped serious
injury.
Rick
N241SW
----- Original Message -----
From: Rogers
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 10:32 PM
Subject: Tailwind-List: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden flight
and some related fuel questions
Fellow Listers
On its maiden flight, a Canadian-registered tricycle T-wind experienced an
engine stoppage shortly after take off and ended up on its back after a forced
landing in a soybean field. Test pilot had only minor scratches, but the plane
is close to being a write-off. Fuselage is in fairly good shape, and one wing
seems totally undamaged. Nose gear broke off and caused major damage to the
other wing. The dyna-focal engine mount hardly deformed at all and in fact broke
the attachment points off the motor case.
The owner is in the process of tearing down the engine but is already wondering
if fuel starvation may have played a role. The engine ran perfectly throughout
the take-off and only experienced problems as the test pilot pulled it into
a steep climb. He claims the engine ran rough for a few seconds and then stopped.
The wooden prop stopped windmilling almost immediately. Re-starting apparently
involved taking both hands off the stick--which he decided not to do
at 150 feet off the runway. The pre-flight dipped fuel reading indicated about
3/4 full tank. I don't know how much head there was between the fuel tank outlet
and carb inlet.
Measured fuel flow with both the tail and the mains on the ground (don't know
what angle that represents) was 2 1/2 times maximum full throttle fuel consumption.
Questions:
Has anyone on the list experienced similar problems with the 0-300?
Is anyone flying a T-wind with the 0-300 WITHOUT fuel pump assist?
Does it seem likely that a wooden prop would stop windmilling that quickly
with the plane going 95 mph in a nose-high attitude?
The engine turned over freely post-crash. If the engine did seize in flight,
is it likely that it would unseize after the forced landing?
Any feedback greatly appreciated.
Roger
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| Subject: | Re: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden flight |
and some related fuel questions
Yes, but that wasn't an O300.
----- Original Message -----
From: cgalley
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden flight
and some related fuel questions
All 1948 Cessna 170s had a fuel pump on the C-145.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden flight
and some related fuel questions
Rogers:
I don't know of any O300 powered Tailwinds that have experienced the exact
problems you tell us of.
Few, if any O300 powered anythings are equipped with a fuel pump. By far most
of these engines would have been on C172s, which had no fuel pump.
I doubt anyone on this group can put their finger on a Tailwind that has had
an O300 with a fuel pump, although there are one or two members who are obsessed
with such details that may know of one.
The wooden prop provides far less flywheel than a metal one, and will therefore
stop windmilling at a higher speed. Likely the pilot slowed down when he
had difficulty, stopping the prop.
It is possible for an aircooled engine to seize when overheated, then unseize
when cool. This will likely be a piston to cylinder wall seizure and there
will be evidence of this on the cylinder walls. If the crank main bearings or
big end connecting rod bearings seized, the engine will likely stay seized.
We hate to hear of a Tailwind crashing, but we're glad the pilot escaped serious
injury.
Rick
N241SW
----- Original Message -----
From: Rogers
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 10:32 PM
Subject: Tailwind-List: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden flight
and some related fuel questions
Fellow Listers
On its maiden flight, a Canadian-registered tricycle T-wind experienced an
engine stoppage shortly after take off and ended up on its back after a forced
landing in a soybean field. Test pilot had only minor scratches, but the plane
is close to being a write-off. Fuselage is in fairly good shape, and one wing
seems totally undamaged. Nose gear broke off and caused major damage to the
other wing. The dyna-focal engine mount hardly deformed at all and in fact broke
the attachment points off the motor case.
The owner is in the process of tearing down the engine but is already wondering
if fuel starvation may have played a role. The engine ran perfectly throughout
the take-off and only experienced problems as the test pilot pulled it
into a steep climb. He claims the engine ran rough for a few seconds and then
stopped. The wooden prop stopped windmilling almost immediately. Re-starting
apparently involved taking both hands off the stick--which he decided not to do
at 150 feet off the runway. The pre-flight dipped fuel reading indicated about
3/4 full tank. I don't know how much head there was between the fuel tank outlet
and carb inlet.
Measured fuel flow with both the tail and the mains on the ground (don't
know what angle that represents) was 2 1/2 times maximum full throttle fuel consumption.
Questions:
Has anyone on the list experienced similar problems with the 0-300?
Is anyone flying a T-wind with the 0-300 WITHOUT fuel pump assist?
Does it seem likely that a wooden prop would stop windmilling that quickly
with the plane going 95 mph in a nose-high attitude?
The engine turned over freely post-crash. If the engine did seize in flight,
is it likely that it would unseize after the forced landing?
Any feedback greatly appreciated.
Roger
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| Subject: | Re: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden flight |
and som...
Roger -
A Canadian built plane must prove a fuel flow of 30 US gallons per hour, or
25 Imperial gallons, in climb attitude. This is not difficult to do with a
3/8 fuel line and gravity fed.
Without this test a builder will not receive a flight permit.
A wooden propeller will stop windmilling when the engine quits, even at 150
knots, at least mine did. I guess if the compression is the pits it might go
around.
At my airport, an RV-6 builder lost his investment on first flight in much
the same way. When all the dust cleared it turned out the fuel selector was
not in the ON indent, it was between on and off.
Being a Canadian I am interested in where this happened?
Earl Trimble
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flight and some related fuel questions
| Subject: | Re: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden |
flight and some related fuel questions
DNA: do not archive
Its-Bogus: do not forward to list
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| Subject: | Re: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden flight |
and some related fuel questions
Only difference is the crank in the O-300 has counterweights, Every thing else
is the same. Many C-145 have had the crank changed. It is mostly just an ID that
changed. Same Cert. E-253
Certification basis
CAR 13
Type Certificate No. 253 issued for C145-2 December 59 1947; C145-2H added April
1, 1949; C145-2HP added January 27, 1953; O-300-A added May 12, 1954; O-300-B
added September 27, 1955; O-300-C added February 24, 1959; O-300-D added June
1, 1960; O-300-E added April 3, 1963
So that all 170 before may 12, 1954 had to have C-145 301 cu in after that date
the probably are O-300 of 301 cu in. As I said before it is just mostly a difference
in Name.
From: Rick
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden flight
and some related fuel questions
Yes, but that wasn't an O300.
----- Original Message -----
From: cgalley
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden flight
and some related fuel questions
All 1948 Cessna 170s had a fuel pump on the C-145.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden flight
and some related fuel questions
Rogers:
I don't know of any O300 powered Tailwinds that have experienced the exact
problems you tell us of.
Few, if any O300 powered anythings are equipped with a fuel pump. By far
most of these engines would have been on C172s, which had no fuel pump.
I doubt anyone on this group can put their finger on a Tailwind that has
had an O300 with a fuel pump, although there are one or two members who are obsessed
with such details that may know of one.
The wooden prop provides far less flywheel than a metal one, and will therefore
stop windmilling at a higher speed. Likely the pilot slowed down when he
had difficulty, stopping the prop.
It is possible for an aircooled engine to seize when overheated, then unseize
when cool. This will likely be a piston to cylinder wall seizure and there
will be evidence of this on the cylinder walls. If the crank main bearings or
big end connecting rod bearings seized, the engine will likely stay seized.
We hate to hear of a Tailwind crashing, but we're glad the pilot escaped
serious injury.
Rick
N241SW
----- Original Message -----
From: Rogers
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 10:32 PM
Subject: Tailwind-List: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden flight
and some related fuel questions
Fellow Listers
On its maiden flight, a Canadian-registered tricycle T-wind experienced
an engine stoppage shortly after take off and ended up on its back after a forced
landing in a soybean field. Test pilot had only minor scratches, but the
plane is close to being a write-off. Fuselage is in fairly good shape, and one
wing seems totally undamaged. Nose gear broke off and caused major damage to
the other wing. The dyna-focal engine mount hardly deformed at all and in fact
broke the attachment points off the motor case.
The owner is in the process of tearing down the engine but is already wondering
if fuel starvation may have played a role. The engine ran perfectly throughout
the take-off and only experienced problems as the test pilot pulled
it into a steep climb. He claims the engine ran rough for a few seconds and then
stopped. The wooden prop stopped windmilling almost immediately. Re-starting
apparently involved taking both hands off the stick--which he decided not to
do at 150 feet off the runway. The pre-flight dipped fuel reading indicated about
3/4 full tank. I don't know how much head there was between the fuel tank
outlet and carb inlet.
Measured fuel flow with both the tail and the mains on the ground (don't
know what angle that represents) was 2 1/2 times maximum full throttle fuel
consumption.
Questions:
Has anyone on the list experienced similar problems with the 0-300?
Is anyone flying a T-wind with the 0-300 WITHOUT fuel pump assist?
Does it seem likely that a wooden prop would stop windmilling that quickly
with the plane going 95 mph in a nose-high attitude?
The engine turned over freely post-crash. If the engine did seize in flight,
is it likely that it would unseize after the forced landing?
Any feedback greatly appreciated.
Roger
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden flight |
and som...
Earl, It happened at Carp Ontario, just outside of Ottawa
Jack Steele
TW C-FSNY
----- Original Message -----
From: NorthernTailwind@aol.com
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Crash landing on Canadian Tailwind's maiden flight
and som...
Roger -
A Canadian built plane must prove a fuel flow of 30 US gallons per hour, or 25
Imperial gallons, in climb attitude. This is not difficult to do with a 3/8
fuel line and gravity fed.
Without this test a builder will not receive a flight permit.
A wooden propeller will stop windmilling when the engine quits, even at 150 knots,
at least mine did. I guess if the compression is the pits it might go around.
At my airport, an RV-6 builder lost his investment on first flight in much the
same way. When all the dust cleared it turned out the fuel selector was not
in the ON indent, it was between on and off.
Being a Canadian I am interested in where this happened?
Earl Trimble
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: [TailwindForum] (unknown) |
Looks like i will be in Dallas Thurs thru Mon but will catch up with everyone at
the Flyin.
Here is a photo of my retirement project, a biplane i started 37 years ago when
i was 24 years old.
Now 61 and better get it done before i am too old to fly it.
Dennis Flamini N564DF race #53 Chicago
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim and Donna Clement
To: TailwindForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [TailwindForum] (unknown)
Pat, Plan is to fly to OSH on Monday. Jim C
----- Original Message -----
From: patmc2002
To: TailwindForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:35 PM
Subject: [TailwindForum] (unknown)
I know that the tailwind fly-in is on the 24th and 25th. But are
there going to be a majority of people there on Monday, and are most
of you flying on to Oshkosh on Tuesday?...Pat Mc.
The Tailwind Forum group site is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TailwindForum
The Tailwind Forum group site is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TailwindForum
ADVERTISEMENT
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TailwindForum/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
TailwindForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: [TailwindForum] (unknown) |
Great picture of the boys checking out the project! I have one like
that of my boys when they were little in my Hatz. Priceless! Dave Conrad
P.S. tonight was the perfect Biplane evening. 85=B0 and muggy. Yes I flew.
On Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 09:13 PM, flamini2 wrote:
> Looks like i will be in Dallas Thurs thru Mon but will catch up with
> everyone at the Flyin.
> Here is a photo of my retirement project, a biplane i started 37 years
> ago when i was 24 years old.
> Now 61 and better get it done before i am too old to fly it.
> Dennis Flamini N564DF race #53 Chicago
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim and Donna Clement
> To: TailwindForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [TailwindForum] (unknown)
>
> Pat, Plan is to fly to OSH on Monday. Jim C
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: patmc2002
> To: TailwindForum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:35 PM
> Subject: [TailwindForum] (unknown)
>
> I know that the tailwind fly-in is on the 24th and 25th. But are
> there going to be a majority of people there on Monday, and are most
> of you flying on to Oshkosh on Tuesday?...Pat Mc.
>
>
> The Tailwind Forum group site is:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TailwindForum
>
>
> The Tailwind Forum group site is:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TailwindForum
>
>
<image.tiff>
>
>
<image.tiff>
>
>
> =95 To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TailwindForum/
>
> =95 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> TailwindForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> <sanger 7-19-04ax.jpg><biplane 7-20-04x.jpg>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: [TailwindForum] (unknown) |
Dave,
i also have a photo of my Son in the biplane in 1969, those are his Sons in the
photo, he works for United and his Brother is a Southwest pilot.
The funny part is when i brought it home from the airport my wife thought i bought
another airplane!!
The project could set a record for completion time if i live that long.
i have a friend who started a Skybolt about the same time and still not done but
he paid extra to have the plans airmailed to him so he got a head start on me!!
On a positive note 330' of tubing was $128 in 1967.
Dennis in Chicago then Dallas then Oshkosh.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Conrad
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Re: [TailwindForum] (unknown)
Great picture of the boys checking out the project! I have one like that of my
boys when they were little in my Hatz. Priceless! Dave Conrad
P.S. tonight was the perfect Biplane evening. 85=B0 and muggy. Yes I flew.
On Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 09:13 PM, flamini2 wrote:
Looks like i will be in Dallas Thurs thru Mon but will catch up with everyone
at the Flyin.
Here is a photo of my retirement project, a biplane i started 37 years ago
when i was 24 years old.
Now 61 and better get it done before i am too old to fly it.
Dennis Flamini N564DF race #53 Chicago
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim and Donna Clement
To: TailwindForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [TailwindForum] (unknown)
Pat, Plan is to fly to OSH on Monday. Jim C
----- Original Message -----
From: patmc2002
To: TailwindForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:35 PM
Subject: [TailwindForum] (unknown)
I know that the tailwind fly-in is on the 24th and 25th. But are
there going to be a majority of people there on Monday, and are most
of you flying on to Oshkosh on Tuesday?...Pat Mc.
The Tailwind Forum group site is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TailwindForum
The Tailwind Forum group site is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TailwindForum
<image.tiff>
<image.tiff>
. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TailwindForum/
. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
TailwindForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<sanger 7-19-04ax.jpg><biplane 7-20-04x.jpg>
Message 10
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--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "red" <redswings@reds-headers.com>
Rick,
That will be cool. Can you go from TN to CA nonstop?
Red
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick" <rcaviate@infionline.net>
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Therapy
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Rick" <rcaviate@infionline.net>
>
> Red: Thanks for your kind words, they are much appreciated. Hope to meet
up
> with you guys soon, hopefully in a screamin' fast yellow airplane.
> Rick
> N241SW
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "red" <redswings@reds-headers.com>
> To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 12:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Therapy
>
>
> > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "red" <redswings@reds-headers.com>
> >
> > Sorry that you won't be there Rick, sorrier to hear of the breakup.
> > We will see you next year with the O&O.
> > Red
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rick" <rcaviate@infionline.net>
> > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 12:31 PM
> > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Therapy
> >
> >
> > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Rick" <rcaviate@infionline.net>
> > >
> > > John: Thanks, not going to be able to make it this year. Ashamed to
fly
> > the
> > > 172 up there and too old to ride the motorcycle that far.
> > > Rick
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "john" <frmrjohn@netonecom.net>
> > > To: "tailwind" <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 1:43 PM
> > > Subject: Tailwind-List: Therapy
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "john" <frmrjohn@netonecom.net>
> > > >
> > > > Rick; It sounds like with your recent happenstance, that you need
> > alittle
> > > > Baraboo therapy, hope to see you there. JohnD
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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