Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:31 AM - Re: Re: 70P (Keith Imel)
2. 05:58 AM - Re: wing fitting (Ruhnke, Mike)
3. 07:14 AM - Re: wing fitting (Dave Conrad)
4. 07:15 AM - Re: wing fitting (NorthernTailwind@aol.com)
5. 07:24 AM - baraboo trip (Dave Conrad)
6. 07:33 AM - Re: wing fitting (Ruhnke, Mike)
7. 07:51 AM - Re: wing fitting (Dan)
8. 08:07 AM - Re: wing fitting (Larry H)
9. 10:08 AM - Re: wing fitting (mytyweav@earthlink.net)
10. 11:03 AM - Re: wing fitting (Ruhnke, Mike)
11. 02:17 PM - Re: wing fitting (Dave Conrad)
12. 04:30 PM - Re: wing fitting (tailwind614)
Message 1
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--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Keith Imel" <keithimel@alaska.net>
Right On Weav!! It is refreshing to hear somebody really speak their
mind. Some guys should just stick to Champs and Cubs.
Keith imel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Re: 70P
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver"
<Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
>
> Too much up elevator on takeoff.... Lou also had two props, one for
climb
> and one for cruising. He was always a little too squimish about the climb
> rate. BUT, I flew the plane about 20 hours and never ever had any problem
> taking off or climbing. However, when Lou bought the airplane, the first
> thing he did was screw up the landing gear on a landing in Cottage Grove,
> Oregon and when he did that, he also wiped out the original prop. It was
> wood....no engine damage. Anyway, he never quite got the hang of the
> airplane and consequently, he quit even trying to fly it. Ego was also a
> factor with Lou, he didn't want anyone else to fly it unless they bought
it
> and flew it away. He wasn't very forthcoming with his real thoughts of the
> airplane when he was trying to sell it either. I'm very glad no innocent
> customer got hurt. Lou should have let a competent "Tailwind Pilot" fly it
> out of that location. That way, it would have been checked at runup for
> adequate RRM and power. The engine was a very good Cont 0-300D that was
> meticulously rebuilt by the original airframe builder. The Logs were clean
> and loaded with the right tags.
> Bottom line.... The airplane has to have flying speed so it will climb.
If
> you constantly hold too much up, it will mush along trying to fly and
keep
> boinking off the runway. Especially if he had the cruise prop mounted so
the
> airspeed would look better to a prospective customer.
> My opinion only.....
> Weav
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Youngquist" <dpy@sdf.lonestar.org>
> To: <TailwindForum@yahoogroups.com>; <Tailwind-List@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 7:10 PM
> Subject: Tailwind-List: Re: 70P
>
>
> > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Dan Youngquist
<dpy@sdf.lonestar.org>
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Yesterday at the airport I ran into some folks who are based at Whidbey
> > Air Park, where Lou Hagler crashed his W10 on 8/1. They didn't see it
> > happen, but a pilot friend did. She said the engine appeared to be
> > running fine, but the plane stalled & mushed down twice on climbout
before
> > it hit the tree and crashed. Seems like he was going way too slow, the
> > big question is why. Anyone else know any more details?
> >
> > -Dan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 2
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This is such an important subject I feel I have to continue the discussion. My
project is very close to completion. Its a two seater and I feel WE owe it to
our passengers to do whatever we have to to insure our wings stay attached.
Had it not been for this list my Tailwind would have gone into service without
plywood doublers at the root connection. I have since added the doublers, 3/32
thick, with what I felt was the best grain orientation to prevent splitting
of the main spars grain. The doublers are of three ply construction, two mahaugany
layers and one birch layer. The birch layer is the thickest. Therefore
I aligned the grain of the birch layer perpendicular to the grain of the main
spar.
Recently, I tested a scrap piece of main spar material I had laying in my basement.
I drilled one hole in it two inches from the end. I inserted one bolt in
the hole and suspended myself from the ceiling of my basement by a cable attached
to that one bolt. I detected no noticable compression of the wood where
the bolt delevered the load. Then I took a hammer and proceeded to bash the
bolt toward what would be the inboard direction to see if I could get the spar
to split. The spar did not split. The bolt bent. This test didn't include
plywood doubler. A crude test. But at least a test.
There are a lot of wooden aircraft out there. Not many of them fly as fast as
a Tailwind.
The report you included below was sickenly similar to one I have read before.
The last one blamed the quailty of the drilled holes in the root connection.
Poor quality holes or a sight mis-alingment of strut and strut bracket sould not
be accepted as big enough mistakes to say poor craftsman ship was too blame.
IS THIS WING CONNECTION SAFE? I'M NOT QUALIFIED TO ANSWER THAT. IS THERE ANYONE
ON THIS LIST WILLING OR SOMEONE WHO KNOWS SOMETHING ABOUT AIRCRAFT DESIGN TO
STEP FORWARD WITH REAL DATA OR A METHOD TO TEST THE CONNECTION.
Had it not been for Lou Owen's link. I would never have heard about N14VK. Bob
was just flying along and his wing fell off.
Mike Ruhnke, NW Illinois
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Louis Owen
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
For information on possible wing damage resulting from an accident you might want
to read the entire accident report, address below. Read both pages.
http://www2.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id20020625X00963 <http://www2.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id20020625X00963&key1> &key1
----- Original Message -----
From: Ruhnke, <mailto:ruhnkem@rayovac.com> Mike
Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
I guess a good testiment to the strength of the existing wing connections would
be an examination of the wings on the aircraft that collapsed its landing gear
recently. It appeared from the posted photo that the airframe received a signigficant
"G" loading in the direction of the wing strut.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of mike_tailwind@att.net
Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
I staggered the holes in my W-10. I staggerd the holes a little over a bolt width
(I didn't want to get close to the edge of the spar). This is the accepted
standard practice (AC43-13). However, I don't know of any problems with doing
it per the plans.
While we are on the subject of standard practices, if I were to make another wing
I would extend the 3/16 ply doublers for the lift strut (this would require
making two special ribs with wider spar openings). I would then taper (feather)
the thickness of the ply doubler at each end. The purpose of this is to prevent
splitting of the spar due to expansion and contraction from mositure changes.
Like I said, I didn't do this and wouldn't worry about it, but if I were
starting from scratch I would.
-------------- Original message from "Ruhnke, Mike" : --------------
The holes in the bracket on a W-8 are staggerd (I can see the hole pattern in the
additional photos included with my plan set. Mine are serial #1137). The holes
in the W-10 are in-line. I assumed since the W-10 is the more recent it
is the "best practice"?
Mike
NW Illinois
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of von Allmen Guido
Subject: Re: experimenter show non aligned holes which I think distribute better
the forces on the spar and if I am not wrong Rick Crosslin did it this way
on his W 10 and O-O . Wouldn't this give some improvement. Thanks to everybody
for the nice pictures of Baraboo and Oshkosh.
Guido
From: "Earl Luce" <luceair@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
Hi gang ,
Take a look at thae wing fitting that I'm drawing for my manual for the buttercup
. It is the same as the Tailwind . I'm going to do all the parts this way
. Any suggestions ?
Earl Luce
---
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: wing fitting |
I've always used 1/8" 5 ply aircraft plywood for Doublers. Make sure
you have 100% glue coverage on both surfaces also. For the small price
of aircraft ply why would you not use it? Dave Conrad
On Friday, August 13, 2004, at 07:58 AM, Ruhnke, Mike wrote:
> This is such an important subject I feel I have to continue the
> discussion.=A0 My project is very close to completion.=A0 Its a two seater
> and I feel WE owe it to our passengers to do whatever we have to to
> insure our wings stay attached.=A0 Had it not been for this list
> my=A0Tailwind would have gone into service without plywood doublers at
> the=A0root connection.=A0 I have since added the doublers, 3/32 thick,
> with=A0what I felt was the best grain orientation to prevent splitting
> of the main spars grain.=A0 The doublers=A0are of three ply construction,
> two mahaugany layers and one birch layer.=A0 The birch layer is the
> thickest.=A0 Therefore I aligned the grain of=A0the birch layer
> perpendicular to the grain of the main spar.
>
> Recently, I tested a scrap piece of main spar material I had laying in
> my basement.=A0 I=A0drilled one hole in=A0it two inches from the end.=A0 I
> inserted one bolt in the hole and suspended myself from the ceiling of
> my basement by a cable attached to that one bolt.=A0 I
> detected=A0no=A0noticable compression of the wood where the bolt delevered
> the load.=A0 Then I took a hammer and proceeded to bash the bolt toward
> what would be the inboard direction to see if I could get the spar to
> split.=A0 The spar did not split.=A0=A0The bolt bent.=A0 This test didn't
> include plywood doubler.=A0 A crude test.=A0 But at least a test.
>
> There are a lot of wooden aircraft out there.=A0 Not many of them fly as
> fast as a Tailwind.=A0
>
> The report you included below was sickenly similar to one I have read
> before.=A0 The last one blamed the quailty of the drilled holes in the
> root connection.=A0 Poor quality holes=A0or=A0a sight mis-alingment of strut
> and strut bracket sould not be accepted as big enough mistakes to say
> poor craftsman ship was too blame.
>
> IS THIS=A0WING CONNECTION=A0SAFE?=A0=A0I'M NOT QUALIFIED TO ANSWER THAT.=A0 IS
> THERE ANYONE ON THIS LIST WILLING OR SOMEONE WHO KNOWS SOMETHING ABOUT
> AIRCRAFT DESIGN TO STEP FORWARD WITH REAL DATA OR A METHOD TO TEST THE
> CONNECTION.
>
> Had it not been for Lou Owen's link.=A0 I would never have heard about
> N14VK.=A0 Bob was just flying along and his wing fell off.=A0
>
> Mike Ruhnke, NW Illinois
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Louis
> Owen
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 4:31 PM
> To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
>
> For information on possible wing damage resulting from an accident you
> might want to read the entire accident report, address below. Read
> both pages.
>
>
> http://www2.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id20020625X00963&key1
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ruhnke, Mike
> To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 3:20 PM
> Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
>
> I guess a good testiment to the strength of the existing wing
> connections would be an examination of the wings on the aircraft that
> collapsed its landing gear recently.=A0 It appeared from the posted
> photo that the airframe received a signigficant "G" loading in the
> direction of the wing strut.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> mike_tailwind@att.net
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 2:47 PM
> To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
>
> I staggered the holes in my W-10.=A0 I staggerd the holes a little over
> a bolt width (I didn't want to get close to the edge of the spar).=A0
> This is the accepted standard practice (AC43-13).=A0However, I don't
> know of any problems with doing it per the plans.=A0=A0
>
>
> While we are on the subject of standard practices, if I were to make
> another wing I would extend the 3/16 ply doublers for the lift strut
> (this would require making two special ribs with wider spar
> openings).=A0 I would then taper (feather)=A0the thickness of the ply
> doubler at each end.=A0 The purpose of this is to prevent splitting of
> the spar due to expansion and contraction from mositure changes.=A0 Like
> I said, I didn't do this and wouldn't worry about it, but if I were
> starting from scratch I would.
>
> -------------- Original message from "Ruhnke, Mike" : --------------
>
> The holes in the bracket on a W-8 are staggerd (I can see the hole
> pattern in the additional photos included with my plan set. Mine are
> serial #1137).=A0 The holes in the W-10 are in-line.=A0 I assumed since
> the W-10 is the more recent it is the "best practice"?
>
> Mike
> NW Illinois
> Do Not Archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of von
> Allmen Guido
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 11:15 AM
> To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: experimenter show non aligned holes which I think
> distribute better the forces on the spar and if I am not wrongRick
> Crosslin did it this way on his W 10 and O-O .Wouldn't this give
> some improvement.=A0Thanks to everybody for the nice pictures of
> Baraboo and Oshkosh.
> Guido
>
>
> From: "Earl Luce" <luceair@frontiernet.net>
> Reply-To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 23:06:41 -0400
> To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
>
>
> Hi gang ,
>=A0=A0Take a look at thae wing fitting that I'm drawing for my manual for
> the buttercup . It is the same as the Tailwind . I'm going to do all
> the parts this way . Any suggestions ?
> Earl Luce
>
>
> ---
> Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: wing fitting |
Hi gang -
I just read the accident report on Bob Lidster and his N14VK Tailwind.
I met Bob at Chino airport in Southern CA a few times and I found him a very
nice gentleman. Bob had a Cessna 140 that he and his wife had refurbished
and it had a beautiful white and blue paint job; the quality that Jim does.
One of the times I dropped by his hangar he had an old, and I mean old, and
dusty/dirty, and I mean dusty and dirty Tailwind in his hangar. I asked him,
"what is this and where did you get it?" Well, Bob told me that he had his
eye on this so called plane for years and it was stored way back in a hangar
just across from his. The story goes that this now old guy built it many
years ago, then went out and gave himself a big scare, so he stored it back in
his hangar and then got himself a pussy cat to fly. The old gentleman who
built it would not part with it but eventually he relented. He needed some
electrical work done on his house so he traded Bob, the plane for his services.
This old Tailwind was basic at its best. It had fabric covered boot cowl
and doors. The seats were fabric slings. The baggage area was just a sling.
The instrument panel was small with very little in it. The wings were short
and feather light as I recall. Oh, the fabric on the doors and seats were
disintegrating with age, they were just falling to pieces.
Why I mention this, this ancient relic turned into N14VK a few years later
and it was not a brand newly built Tailwind.
A tragic loss.
Earl Trimble
Message 5
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Tailwind matronics <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: Dave Conrad <dconrad@dwave.net>
Jim and bababooainians. I'm thinking about flying down sat. morning,
anyone going to be around?
Dave Conrad
Message 6
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Oh, rest assured I glued the dog pi** out of it. It was suggested that the plans
should have called for 1/16 ply. I had a bunch of left over 3/32 from my wings
so... If it had been noted on the plans I would have installed it right
off, a ten minute job. To install it afterward took 24 man hours.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave Conrad
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
I've always used 1/8" 5 ply aircraft plywood for Doublers. Make sure you have 100%
glue coverage on both surfaces also. For the small price of aircraft ply why
would you not use it? Dave Conrad
On Friday, August 13, 2004, at 07:58 AM, Ruhnke, Mike wrote:
This is such an important subject I feel I have to continue the discussion. My
project is very close to completion. Its a two seater and I feel WE owe it to
our passengers to do whatever we have to to insure our wings stay attached.
Had it not been for this list my Tailwind would have gone into service without
plywood doublers at the root connection. I have since added the doublers, 3/32
thick, with what I felt was the best grain orientation to prevent splitting
of the main spars grain. The doublers are of three ply construction, two mahaugany
layers and one birch layer. The birch layer is the thickest. Therefore
I aligned the grain of the birch layer perpendicular to the grain of the main
spar.
Recently, I tested a scrap piece of main spar material I had laying in my basement.
I drilled one hole in it two inches from the end. I inserted one bolt in
the hole and suspended myself from the ceiling of my basement by a cable attached
to that one bolt. I detected no noticable compression of the wood where
the bolt delevered the load. Then I took a hammer and proceeded to bash the
bolt toward what would be the inboard direction to see if I could get the spar
to split. The spar did not split. The bolt bent. This test didn't include
plywood doubler. A crude test. But at least a test.
There are a lot of wooden aircraft out there. Not many of them fly as fast as
a Tailwind.
The report you included below was sickenly similar to one I have read before.
The last one blamed the quailty of the drilled holes in the root connection.
Poor quality holes or a sight mis-alingment of strut and strut bracket sould not
be accepted as big enough mistakes to say poor craftsman ship was too blame.
IS THIS WING CONNECTION SAFE? I'M NOT QUALIFIED TO ANSWER THAT. IS THERE ANYONE
ON THIS LIST WILLING OR SOMEONE WHO KNOWS SOMETHING ABOUT AIRCRAFT DESIGN TO
STEP FORWARD WITH REAL DATA OR A METHOD TO TEST THE CONNECTION.
Had it not been for Lou Owen's link. I would never have heard about N14VK. Bob
was just flying along and his wing fell off.
Mike Ruhnke, NW Illinois
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Louis Owen
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
For information on possible wing damage resulting from an accident you might want
to read the entire accident report, address below. Read both pages.
http://www2.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id20020625X00963&key1
----- Original Message -----
From: Ruhnke, Mike
Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
I guess a good testiment to the strength of the existing wing connections would
be an examination of the wings on the aircraft that collapsed its landing gear
recently. It appeared from the posted photo that the airframe received a signigficant
"G" loading in the direction of the wing strut.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of mike_tailwind@att.net
Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
I staggered the holes in my W-10. I staggerd the holes a little over a bolt width
(I didn't want to get close to the edge of the spar). This is the accepted
standard practice (AC43-13). However, I don't know of any problems with doing
it per the plans.
While we are on the subject of standard practices, if I were to make another wing
I would extend the 3/16 ply doublers for the lift strut (this would require
making two special ribs with wider spar openings). I would then taper (feather)
the thickness of the ply doubler at each end. The purpose of this is to prevent
splitting of the spar due to expansion and contraction from mositure changes.
Like I said, I didn't do this and wouldn't worry about it, but if I were
starting from scratch I would.
-------------- Original message from "Ruhnke, Mike" : --------------
The holes in the bracket on a W-8 are staggerd (I can see the hole pattern in the
additional photos included with my plan set. Mine are serial #1137). The holes
in the W-10 are in-line. I assumed since the W-10 is the more recent it
is the "best practice"?
Mike
NW Illinois
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of von Allmen Guido
Subject: Re: experimenter show non aligned holes which I think distribute better
the forces on the spar and if I am not wrong Rick Crosslin did it this way
on his W 10 and O-O . Wouldn't this give some improvement. Thanks to everybody
for the nice pictures of Baraboo and Oshkosh.
Guido
From: "Earl Luce" <luceair@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
Hi gang ,
Take a look at thae wing fitting that I'm drawing for my manual for the buttercup
. It is the same as the Tailwind . I'm going to do all the parts this way
. Any suggestions ?
Earl Luce
---
Message 7
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Right after this accident happened it was discussed that N14VK 's wings were
built with the ribs not glued to the plywood. This would cause the type
failure described in the report not the spar connection itself. The report
spoke of force in the chord-wise direction failing the spar. The plywood
skin would take that load in a properly built wing. This report didn't
mention the rib glue joint. Anyone got any information on the ribs?
-Danny
>IS THIS WING CONNECTION SAFE? I'M NOT QUALIFIED TO ANSWER THAT. IS THERE
ANYONE ON THIS >LIST WILLING OR SOMEONE WHO KNOWS SOMETHING ABOUT AIRCRAFT
DESIGN TO STEP FORWARD >WITH REAL DATA OR A METHOD TO TEST THE CONNECTION.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: wing fitting |
The report that I read included one by a guy who hangared next to Bob who said
the ribs looked like they were not glued to the spar, that they were just tacked
on by little nails. Am I wrong about this?
Larry H.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 9:51 AM
Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
Right after this accident happened it was discussed that N14VK 's wings were
built with the ribs not glued to the plywood. This would cause the type failure
described in the report not the spar connection itself. The report spoke of
force in the chord-wise direction failing the spar. The plywood skin would
take that load in a properly built wing. This report didn't mention the rib glue
joint. Anyone got any information on the ribs?
-Danny
>IS THIS WING CONNECTION SAFE? I'M NOT QUALIFIED TO ANSWER THAT. IS THERE ANYONE
ON THIS >LIST WILLING OR SOMEONE WHO KNOWS SOMETHING ABOUT AIRCRAFT DESIGN
TO STEP FORWARD >WITH REAL DATA OR A METHOD TO TEST THE CONNECTION.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: wing fitting |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "mytyweav@earthlink.net" <mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Finally, I'd like to say Bob died test flying his Tailwind. It was a pretty
plane when he was done with it but unfortunately, whoever glued the wings
together didn't do it properly. Bob didn't stand a chance. Let him rest in
peace. It tore me up then and to read it now, just brings back too much
sadness.
Current builders, be confident that your workmanship is probably a thousand
percent better than the internal stuff that was going on in his wings. You
can be very comfortable with the strength of your wings/struts. I have
certainly tested quite a few Tailwinds (EMPERICALLY :) )in a variety of
conditions and they are just frankly..... Bullet Proof.
Mike: You really don't have to worry about your spar fittings. If you
drilled the holes cleanly thru the spar/doublers and bolted them on using
good hardware, they will take care of you forever. I did have an occasion
once to have to snug up the nuts on some that were 20 years old in service
but that was a unique situation. It also gave me an opportunity to look at
the holes/fittings/hardware that had been in fairly constant use over the
20 year span. Everything looked great... Relax and go flying.
BTW, even after Dave Stamsta's event a couple of weeks ago, it appears his
wings/fittings etc survived after all the havok... It's a testimony to the
design and structure we all have the priviledge to fly in.
Have a nice weekend everybody....
Weav
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Larry H laheze@ev1.net
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
The report that I read included one by a guy who hangared next to Bob who
said the ribs looked like they were not glued to the spar, that they were
just tacked on by little nails. Am I wrong about this?
Larry H.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 9:51 AM
Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
Right after this accident happened it was discussed that N14VK 's wings
were built with the ribs not glued to the plywood. This would cause the
type failure described in the report not the spar connection itself. The
report spoke of force in the chord-wise direction failing the spar. The
plywood skin would take that load in a properly built wing. This report
didn't mention the rib glue joint. Anyone got any information on the ribs?
-Danny
>IS THIS WING CONNECTION SAFE? I'M NOT QUALIFIED TO ANSWER THAT. IS
THERE ANYONE ON THIS >LIST WILLING OR SOMEONE WHO KNOWS SOMETHING ABOUT
AIRCRAFT DESIGN TO STEP FORWARD >WITH REAL DATA OR A METHOD TO TEST THE
CONNECTION.
Message 10
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--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Ruhnke, Mike" <ruhnkem@rayovac.com>
This is the reason this list is such a beautiful thing. If one was left only with
what was included in the official report, you could understand my concern.
However the discussion today about history and workmanship paint a completely
different story.
Weav I look forward to the day I get to meet you! Thanks
Mike
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
mytyweav@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "mytyweav@earthlink.net" <mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Finally, I'd like to say Bob died test flying his Tailwind. It was a pretty
plane when he was done with it but unfortunately, whoever glued the wings
together didn't do it properly. Bob didn't stand a chance. Let him rest in
peace. It tore me up then and to read it now, just brings back too much
sadness.
Current builders, be confident that your workmanship is probably a thousand
percent better than the internal stuff that was going on in his wings. You
can be very comfortable with the strength of your wings/struts. I have
certainly tested quite a few Tailwinds (EMPERICALLY :) )in a variety of
conditions and they are just frankly..... Bullet Proof.
Mike: You really don't have to worry about your spar fittings. If you
drilled the holes cleanly thru the spar/doublers and bolted them on using
good hardware, they will take care of you forever. I did have an occasion
once to have to snug up the nuts on some that were 20 years old in service
but that was a unique situation. It also gave me an opportunity to look at
the holes/fittings/hardware that had been in fairly constant use over the
20 year span. Everything looked great... Relax and go flying.
BTW, even after Dave Stamsta's event a couple of weeks ago, it appears his
wings/fittings etc survived after all the havok... It's a testimony to the
design and structure we all have the priviledge to fly in.
Have a nice weekend everybody....
Weav
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Larry H laheze@ev1.net
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
The report that I read included one by a guy who hangared next to Bob who
said the ribs looked like they were not glued to the spar, that they were
just tacked on by little nails. Am I wrong about this?
Larry H.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 9:51 AM
Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
Right after this accident happened it was discussed that N14VK 's wings
were built with the ribs not glued to the plywood. This would cause the
type failure described in the report not the spar connection itself. The
report spoke of force in the chord-wise direction failing the spar. The
plywood skin would take that load in a properly built wing. This report
didn't mention the rib glue joint. Anyone got any information on the ribs?
-Danny
>IS THIS WING CONNECTION SAFE? I'M NOT QUALIFIED TO ANSWER THAT. IS
THERE ANYONE ON THIS >LIST WILLING OR SOMEONE WHO KNOWS SOMETHING ABOUT
AIRCRAFT DESIGN TO STEP FORWARD >WITH REAL DATA OR A METHOD TO TEST THE
CONNECTION.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: wing fitting |
Wing skin is not doubler material. Dave
On Friday, August 13, 2004, at 09:33 AM, Ruhnke, Mike wrote:
> Oh, rest assured I glued the dog pi** out of it.=A0 It was suggested
> that the plans should have called for 1/16 ply.=A0 I had a bunch of left
> over 3/32 from my wings so...=A0 If it had been noted on the plans I
> would have installed it right off, a ten minute job.=A0 To install it
> afterward took 24 man hours.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave
> Conrad
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 9:14 AM
> To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
>
> I've always used 1/8" 5 ply aircraft plywood for Doublers. Make sure
> you have 100% glue coverage on both surfaces also. For the small price
> of aircraft ply why would you not use it? Dave Conrad
> On Friday, August 13, 2004, at 07:58 AM, Ruhnke, Mike wrote:
>
> This is such an important subject I feel I have to continue the
> discussion.=A0 My project is very close to completion.=A0 Its a two seater
> and I feel WE owe it to our passengers to do whatever we have to to
> insure our wings stay attached.=A0 Had it not been for this list
> my=A0Tailwind would have gone into service without plywood doublers at
> the=A0root connection.=A0 I have since added the doublers, 3/32 thick,
> with=A0what I felt was the best grain orientation to prevent splitting
> of the main spars grain.=A0 The doublers=A0are of three ply construction,
> two mahaugany layers and one birch layer.=A0 The birch layer is the
> thickest.=A0 Therefore I aligned the grain of=A0the birch layer
> perpendicular to the grain of the main spar.
>
> Recently, I tested a scrap piece of main spar material I had laying in
> my basement.=A0 I=A0drilled one hole in=A0it two inches from the end.=A0 I
> inserted one bolt in the hole and suspended myself from the ceiling of
> my basement by a cable attached to that one bolt.=A0 I
> detected=A0no=A0noticable compression of the wood where the bolt delevered
> the load.=A0 Then I took a hammer and proceeded to bash the bolt toward
> what would be the inboard direction to see if I could get the spar to
> split.=A0 The spar did not split.=A0=A0The bolt bent.=A0 This test didn't
> include plywood doubler.=A0 A crude test.=A0 But at least a test.
>
> There are a lot of wooden aircraft out there.=A0 Not many of them fly as
> fast as a Tailwind.=A0
>
> The report you included below was sickenly similar to one I have read
> before.=A0 The last one blamed the quailty of the drilled holes in the
> root connection.=A0 Poor quality holes=A0or=A0a sight mis-alingment of strut
> and strut bracket sould not be accepted as big enough mistakes to say
> poor craftsman ship was too blame.
>
> IS THIS=A0WING CONNECTION=A0SAFE?=A0=A0I'M NOT QUALIFIED TO ANSWER THAT.=A0 IS
> THERE ANYONE ON THIS LIST WILLING OR SOMEONE WHO KNOWS SOMETHING ABOUT
> AIRCRAFT DESIGN TO STEP FORWARD WITH REAL DATA OR A METHOD TO TEST THE
> CONNECTION.
>
> Had it not been for Lou Owen's link.=A0 I would never have heard about
> N14VK.=A0 Bob was just flying along and his wing fell off.=A0
>
> Mike Ruhnke, NW Illinois
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Louis
> Owen
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 4:31 PM
> To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
>
> For information on possible wing damage resulting from an accident you
> might want to read the entire accident report, address below. Read
> both pages.
>
>
> http://www2.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id20020625X00963&key1
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ruhnke, Mike
> To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 3:20 PM
> Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
>
> I guess a good testiment to the strength of the existing wing
> connections would be an examination of the wings on the aircraft that
> collapsed its landing gear recently.=A0 It appeared from the posted
> photo that the airframe received a signigficant "G" loading in the
> direction of the wing strut.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> mike_tailwind@att.net
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 2:47 PM
> To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
>
> I staggered the holes in my W-10.=A0 I staggerd the holes a little over
> a bolt width (I didn't want to get close to the edge of the spar).=A0
> This is the accepted standard practice (AC43-13).=A0However, I don't
> know of any problems with doing it per the plans.=A0=A0
>
>
> While we are on the subject of standard practices, if I were to make
> another wing I would extend the 3/16 ply doublers for the lift strut
> (this would require making two special ribs with wider spar
> openings).=A0 I would then taper (feather)=A0the thickness of the ply
> doubler at each end.=A0 The purpose of this is to prevent splitting of
> the spar due to expansion and contraction from mositure changes.=A0 Like
> I said, I didn't do this and wouldn't worry about it, but if I were
> starting from scratch I would.
>
> -------------- Original message from "Ruhnke, Mike" : --------------
>
> The holes in the bracket on a W-8 are staggerd (I can see the hole
> pattern in the additional photos included with my plan set. Mine are
> serial #1137).=A0 The holes in the W-10 are in-line.=A0 I assumed since
> the W-10 is the more recent it is the "best practice"?
>
> Mike
> NW Illinois
> Do Not Archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of von
> Allmen Guido
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 11:15 AM
> To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: experimenter show non aligned holes which I think
> distribute better the forces on the spar and if I am not wrongRick
> Crosslin did it this way on his W 10 and O-O .Wouldn't this give
> some improvement.=A0Thanks to everybody for the nice pictures of
> Baraboo and Oshkosh.
> Guido
>
>
> From: "Earl Luce" <luceair@frontiernet.net>
> Reply-To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 23:06:41 -0400
> To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
>
>
> Hi gang ,
>=A0=A0Take a look at thae wing fitting that I'm drawing for my manual for
> the buttercup . It is the same as the Tailwind . I'm going to do all
> the parts this way . Any suggestions ?
> Earl Luce
>
>
> ---
> Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: wing fitting |
I visited with Bob a number of times during the rebuild of the airplane. It was
a very old (late 50's vintage according to Bob) and heavily modified W-8. I
do not believe the wings were Tailwind wings and told Bob that. The wings probably
weighed about 50 lbs each at most and were shorter than a standard W-8
wing with what appeared to be a slightly thinner airfoil...it was not a flat bottom
wing. I saw inside one when he was replacing wood in the trailing edge.
It had hidden hinges just like the ones Jerry builds, but they were as old as
the wing.
What is not normally discussed about Bob's crash was that it was wreck #2. The
first incident...stalled and fell in from about 30 ft....knocked the landing
gear out, bent the firewall, broke the engine mount, and buckled one strut.
The wings showed no external damage and I don't believe Bob inspected them internally
before the final flight. My last visit with Bob was about 4 weeks before
the crash and he was building a new strut. That was the day I questioned
him about the wings, their structure, and his confidence in them. He was a nice
guy and seemed to be meticulous with his work. I don't think he ever considered
the possibility that the wing was damaged in the first accident and he
wanted to get the plane in the air and to OSH 2002. Jim Berry
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 9:51 AM
Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: wing fitting
Right after this accident happened it was discussed that N14VK 's wings were
built with the ribs not glued to the plywood. This would cause the type failure
described in the report not the spar connection itself. The report spoke of
force in the chord-wise direction failing the spar. The plywood skin would
take that load in a properly built wing. This report didn't mention the rib glue
joint. Anyone got any information on the ribs?
-Danny
>IS THIS WING CONNECTION SAFE? I'M NOT QUALIFIED TO ANSWER THAT. IS THERE ANYONE
ON THIS >LIST WILLING OR SOMEONE WHO KNOWS SOMETHING ABOUT AIRCRAFT DESIGN
TO STEP FORWARD >WITH REAL DATA OR A METHOD TO TEST THE CONNECTION.
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