---------------------------------------------------------- Tailwind-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/18/04: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:33 AM - Re: wing fitting (Ruhnke, Mike) 2. 04:35 AM - Re: wing fitting (Ruhnke, Mike) 3. 06:45 AM - Re: [TailwindForum] California Fly in (DaveM) 4. 10:36 AM - Props for O320 engines and performance ? (Thomas Barnes) 5. 12:54 PM - Re: Props for O320 engines and performance ? (Rick) 6. 06:20 PM - WTB: Tailwind (Dan Youngquist) 7. 07:07 PM - Re: Props for O320 engines and performance ? (Jim and Donna Clement) 8. 07:58 PM - Re: windshield vibration/noise (red) 9. 08:10 PM - windshield vibration/noise (Louis Owen) 10. 08:13 PM - Re: windshield vibration/noise (Rich Ellis) 11. 08:44 PM - Re: windshield vibration/noise (red) 12. 09:09 PM - Re: windshield vibration/noise (red) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:26 AM PST US Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: wing fitting From: "Ruhnke, Mike" I prefer IronCad. Much easier to use and especially easier to learn. Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Earl Luce Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: wing fitting Mel , Yes on Solid Works . I am trying to get both the Tailwind and Buttercup on it . Earl L ----- Original Message ----- From: Mel Lewis Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: wing fitting Hi Earl, Was that drawing done with SolidWorks? -Mel- ----- Original Message ----- From: Earl Luce Subject: Tailwind-List: wing fitting Hi gang , Take a look at thae wing fitting that I'm drawing for my manual for the buttercup . It is the same as the Tailwind . I'm going to do all the parts this way . Any suggestions ? Earl Luce --- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:42 AM PST US Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: wing fitting From: "Ruhnke, Mike" Oh, forgot. You can download a 60 day demo copy from www.ironcad.com for free. Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Earl Luce Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: wing fitting Mel , Yes on Solid Works . I am trying to get both the Tailwind and Buttercup on it . Earl L ----- Original Message ----- From: Mel Lewis Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: wing fitting Hi Earl, Was that drawing done with SolidWorks? -Mel- ----- Original Message ----- From: Earl Luce Subject: Tailwind-List: wing fitting Hi gang , Take a look at thae wing fitting that I'm drawing for my manual for the buttercup . It is the same as the Tailwind . I'm going to do all the parts this way . Any suggestions ? Earl Luce --- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:12 AM PST US From: "DaveM" Subject: Tailwind-List: Re: [TailwindForum] California Fly in I think that is great. Just about any Saturday or Sunday in October would be best at this time. However, I know Red Hamilton is tied up with a EAA chapt 25 (Vintage) flyin at his airport in Ft. Bragg on Oct 9. I may have to leave on a comercial flight for Texas on Oct 24. Let me know if I can help in any way, Fresno is only an hour away from Yolo Co. by tailwind. Dave N168A N202Q ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck and Nancy Riley To: TailwindForum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [TailwindForum] California Fly in To all Tailwind flyers. Bill Newkirk and I are willing to host a Tailwind Fly-in here at my hanger A-6 Fresno Chandler Airport Fresno, CA. Talk it up as to date that would be good for all. Would need to know how many may need motel accommodations etc. I have plenty of parking space for all and I think we could even get good press coverage. Anyway you all think about it and let Bill and I know. Thanks Chuck Riley 4772 NO. Fruit Ave. Fresno, CA 93705 559-224-8841 559-696-5053 cell ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:36:50 AM PST US Subject: Tailwind-List: Props for O320 engines and performance ? From: Thomas Barnes 08/18/2004 11:36:25 Hi all, I'm the very pleased new owner (as of March of this year) of Rick Crosslin's W10. It truly is a beautiful work of craftmanship and art. Thanks for creating such a beautiful, fast airplane, Rick ! Anyway - I am curious about the different props y'all are using on your O320 powered W10's out there, and what your RPMs are for various phases of operation (as well as the conditions like temp, altitude,) for things like Static RPM, Clim RPM @ ? airspeed, and various measurements of Cruising airspeed at 'X' altitude. The Felix 68DX74P prop on N393RC is a great cruising prop, is smooth and quiet, but only turns about 2130 or so Static on a 60 degree F day. Just wondering if perhaps there is another make/model out there that may give more T/O performance (for some of the short fields here in NC) while retaining the good cruise speed of the Felix. Look forward to hearing about the various combinations of out there... Thanks, Thomas PS - I *did* search thru the archives and didn't find much on this subject... coulda missed it though...) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:54:23 PM PST US From: "Rick" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Props for O320 engines and performance ? Thomas: Thanks for you kind words regarding 393RC, she's a very well designed, well built ship. In selecting the prop on 3RC, I was unaware that the guys that are going really fast in Tailwinds are turning their Lycs over speed, this is a perfectly acceptable condition, and had I known it I would have ordered, say, a 70x70, or some such. Jim Clement of this site has done a great deal of testing of props, and can steer you in the right direction, I personally wouldn't listen to anybody else. You're probably cruising at 2500-2550 rpm which should yeild 185-190 mph at 8.5 gals/hr kinda depending. Jim will tell you the finer pitch prop will burn no more fuel (lower mp) running 2600-2650 or so, yeild the same cruise spd, and when you want to turn the wick up she'll turn 2800 or better and go like hell. Be ready for a fuel burn of gosh awful if you want to run her flat out at those kind of rpms, but what the hell, I can think of more expensive highs. Glad you're enjoying 3RC, when I get the O-O done I'll be happy to outrun you some day! (laugh)! Rick N241SW ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas Barnes To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 1:40 PM Subject: Tailwind-List: Props for O320 engines and performance ? Hi all, I'm the very pleased new owner (as of March of this year) of Rick Crosslin's W10. It truly is a beautiful work of craftmanship and art. Thanks for creating such a beautiful, fast airplane, Rick ! Anyway - I am curious about the different props y'all are using on your O320 powered W10's out there, and what your RPMs are for various phases of operation (as well as the conditions like temp, altitude,) for things like Static RPM, Clim RPM @ ? airspeed, and various measurements of Cruising airspeed at 'X' altitude. The Felix 68DX74P prop on N393RC is a great cruising prop, is smooth and quiet, but only turns about 2130 or so Static on a 60 degree F day. Just wondering if perhaps there is another make/model out there that may give more T/O performance (for some of the short fields here in NC) while retaining the good cruise speed of the Felix. Look forward to hearing about the various combinations of out there... Thanks, Thomas PS - I *did* search thru the archives and didn't find much on this subject... coulda missed it though...) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:35 PM PST US From: Dan Youngquist Subject: Tailwind-List: WTB: Tailwind --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Dan Youngquist Hi all, I'm still looking for an airplane. If anyone knows of a low to mid priced Tailwind for sale, please let me know. Prefer a W10, but I'll buy a W8 if a suitable W10 doesn't turn up. I'd also consider a BD-4. Doesn't have to be pretty, just airworthy and at least a couple hundred hours left in the engine. Mainly looking for a flying airplane, not a project, due to time constraints. -Dan ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:51 PM PST US From: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Props for O320 engines and performance ? Thomas, In reply to your post and Ricks comments, this is what works best for me. You need 2300 rpm static, anything less kills takeoff performance, especially in the summer. This should give you a top speed of about 200 mph at 2750- 2800 rpm, 2000 feet msl. At 10,000 feet It should turn about 2650 or maybe a little more and true out at 195 - 200 mph. Back the throttle off 50 rpm and fuel burn will be 7.5 gph. and still cruise at185 - 190 mph The prop you have is the right pitch but is to fat, the blade needs to be thinned out and the chord narrowed some to pick up the rpm. It's hard to talk some of the prop makers into making the blades thinner. Call Fred Felix and see if he can pick up 170 rpm. It's easier to get more rpm than to get rid of it. Ed Sterba also makes props, some of the RV props he has made look pretty good as far as blade shape and thickness. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas Barnes To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 12:40 PM Subject: Tailwind-List: Props for O320 engines and performance ? Hi all, I'm the very pleased new owner (as of March of this year) of Rick Crosslin's W10. It truly is a beautiful work of craftmanship and art. Thanks for creating such a beautiful, fast airplane, Rick ! Anyway - I am curious about the different props y'all are using on your O320 powered W10's out there, and what your RPMs are for various phases of operation (as well as the conditions like temp, altitude,) for things like Static RPM, Clim RPM @ ? airspeed, and various measurements of Cruising airspeed at 'X' altitude. The Felix 68DX74P prop on N393RC is a great cruising prop, is smooth and quiet, but only turns about 2130 or so Static on a 60 degree F day. Just wondering if perhaps there is another make/model out there that may give more T/O performance (for some of the short fields here in NC) while retaining the good cruise speed of the Felix. Look forward to hearing about the various combinations of out there... Thanks, Thomas PS - I *did* search thru the archives and didn't find much on this subject... coulda missed it though...) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:39 PM PST US From: "red" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: windshield vibration/noise --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "red" Rich, Well I guess now that I have measured it I would have to say that the noise reduction was/is all in our heads. As far as the Db meter knows, it makes no difference. It still seems quieter, the windshield is noticeably vibrating less. I'll try to get a photo sent of the install soon. Red ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Ellis" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: windshield vibration/noise > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Rich Ellis > > Red ....... What dB reduction did you get with the > vibration isolators from MSC? Rich > > > --- red wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: red > > To: tailwind-list@matronics.com > > Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 9:41 PM > > Subject: Tailwind-List: windshield vibration/noise > > > > > > Tailwinders, > > I got some vibration isolators from MSC that I put > > between the diagonal tubes and the windshield and it > > cut some cabin noise. The MSC p/n's are 62187315 and > > 62006192, you need two of the first and four of the > > second. They are adjustable and cost 1.17ea for the > > first and 1.53 each for the second. You have to take > > the threaded washer out of one end of each of the > > four to expose rubber so that it "sticks" to the > > tube and does not hurt the windshield. > > Sorry that 1/2 a message went out last night. > > Red Hamilton > > > ===== > Richard L. Ellis, M.D. > Gundersen Lutheran Health System > Co-Director > Norma J. Vinger Center for Breast Care > 1900 South Avenue > La Crosse, WI 54601 > 800.362.9567, ext. 52102 > rjrellis@yahoo.com > > > __________________________________ > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:55 PM PST US From: "Louis Owen" Subject: Tailwind-List: windshield vibration/noise --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Louis Owen" Since the subject of windshield supports has come up I'll tell a story . When I built N6PJ I welded in supports on each side of the windshield and put small crutch tips on the end of the tubes where they could bear on the Plexiglas. I always wondered how much force was exerted on the windshield at those points but of course there wasn't much of a way to find out. One day I stuck a piece of paper between the crutch tip and the glass and forgot about it until upon landing the paper drifted from where I had put it when the windshield lifted slightly from the support. Lou > Rich, > Well I guess now that I have measured it I would have to say that the noise > reduction was/is all in our heads. As far as the Db meter knows, it makes no > difference. It still seems quieter, the windshield is noticeably vibrating > less. > I'll try to get a photo sent of the install soon. > Red > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:12 PM PST US From: Rich Ellis Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: windshield vibration/noise --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Rich Ellis Red .... Appreciate your reply. Based on our conversation it looks like your noise reduction measures rank as follows (most reduction in cabin noise): 1. Doors; 2. 3/16 windshield thickness; 3. Firewall; 4. Flooring; 5. Tail pipe; 6. Windshield vibration; Before someone points out the obvious, I will mention a good headset with ANR as a good place to start to reduce the noise in a Tailwind. Let me know if the order above is correct. Rich --- red wrote: > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "red" > > > Rich, > Well I guess now that I have measured it I would > have to say that the noise > reduction was/is all in our heads. As far as the Db > meter knows, it makes no > difference. It still seems quieter, the windshield > is noticeably vibrating > less. > I'll try to get a photo sent of the install soon. > Red > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rich Ellis" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 7:01 PM > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: windshield > vibration/noise > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Rich Ellis > > > > > Red ....... What dB reduction did you get with > the > > vibration isolators from MSC? Rich > > > > > > --- red wrote: > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: red > > > To: tailwind-list@matronics.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 9:41 PM > > > Subject: Tailwind-List: windshield > vibration/noise > > > > > > > > > Tailwinders, > > > I got some vibration isolators from MSC that I > put > > > between the diagonal tubes and the windshield > and it > > > cut some cabin noise. The MSC p/n's are 62187315 > and > > > 62006192, you need two of the first and four of > the > > > second. They are adjustable and cost 1.17ea for > the > > > first and 1.53 each for the second. You have to > take > > > the threaded washer out of one end of each of > the > > > four to expose rubber so that it "sticks" to the > > > tube and does not hurt the windshield. > > > Sorry that 1/2 a message went out last night. > > > Red Hamilton > > > > > > ===== > > Richard L. Ellis, M.D. > > Gundersen Lutheran Health System > > Co-Director > > Norma J. Vinger Center for Breast Care > > 1900 South Avenue > > La Crosse, WI 54601 > > 800.362.9567, ext. 52102 > > rjrellis@yahoo.com > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/chat > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Tailwind-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > ===== Richard L. Ellis, M.D. Gundersen Lutheran Health System Co-Director Norma J. Vinger Center for Breast Care 1900 South Avenue La Crosse, WI 54601 800.362.9567, ext. 52102 rjrellis@yahoo.com __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:36 PM PST US From: "red" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: windshield vibration/noise --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "red" Lou, Since they are easy to put in static on the ground and difficult to put in or take out in the air, I would say that they do take quite a load. Red ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Owen" Subject: Tailwind-List: windshield vibration/noise > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Louis Owen" > > Since the subject of windshield supports has come up I'll tell a story . > When I built N6PJ I welded in supports on each side of the windshield and > put small crutch tips on the end of the tubes where they could bear on the > Plexiglas. > I always wondered how much force was exerted on the windshield at those > points but of course there wasn't much of a way to find out. One day I stuck > a piece of paper between the crutch tip and the glass and forgot about it > until upon landing the paper drifted from where I had put it when the > windshield lifted slightly from the support. > Lou > > > > Rich, > > Well I guess now that I have measured it I would have to say that the > noise > > reduction was/is all in our heads. As far as the Db meter knows, it makes > no > > difference. It still seems quieter, the windshield is noticeably vibrating > > less. > > I'll try to get a photo sent of the install soon. > > Red > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:16 PM PST US From: "red" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: windshield vibration/noise --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "red" Rich, I did the sound barrier and absorber at the same time and that may have been the #1. That was and is barrier on the firewall, absorber under the floor both baggage and foot, above the top baggage panel, on the back of the rear baggage wall, inside the boot cowl, on most of the fuel tank. None in the doors. #2 would be weatherstripping around the door openings. #3 would be the "mufflers" . The door forward corner restraints might be #4, don't have the 3/16" winshield yet but think that I should for safety as much as possible noise reduction.I feel better about the safety with the supports on the diagonals and the front spar carrythrough. I do use good ANR headsets and foam earplugs underneath, so does Marilyn. I am not going to mess with sound attenuation until I fabricate and install a clamp in rear spar carrythrough as Earl Luce suggested--thanks Earl. I have all of the pieces made, most are fit. I'll take some photos. Red ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Ellis" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: windshield vibration/noise > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Rich Ellis > > Red .... Appreciate your reply. Based on our > conversation it looks like your noise reduction > measures rank as follows (most reduction in cabin > noise): > > 1. Doors; > 2. 3/16 windshield thickness; > 3. Firewall; > 4. Flooring; > 5. Tail pipe; > 6. Windshield vibration; > > Before someone points out the obvious, I will mention > a good headset with ANR as a good place to start to > reduce the noise in a Tailwind. > > Let me know if the order above is correct. Rich > > --- red wrote: > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "red" > > > > > > Rich, > > Well I guess now that I have measured it I would > > have to say that the noise > > reduction was/is all in our heads. As far as the Db > > meter knows, it makes no > > difference. It still seems quieter, the windshield > > is noticeably vibrating > > less. > > I'll try to get a photo sent of the install soon. > > Red > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Rich Ellis" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 7:01 PM > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: windshield > > vibration/noise > > > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Rich Ellis > > > > > > > > Red ....... What dB reduction did you get with > > the > > > vibration isolators from MSC? Rich > > > > > > > > > --- red wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: red > > > > To: tailwind-list@matronics.com > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 9:41 PM > > > > Subject: Tailwind-List: windshield > > vibration/noise > > > > > > > > > > > > Tailwinders, > > > > I got some vibration isolators from MSC that I > > put > > > > between the diagonal tubes and the windshield > > and it > > > > cut some cabin noise. The MSC p/n's are 62187315 > > and > > > > 62006192, you need two of the first and four of > > the > > > > second. They are adjustable and cost 1.17ea for > > the > > > > first and 1.53 each for the second. You have to > > take > > > > the threaded washer out of one end of each of > > the > > > > four to expose rubber so that it "sticks" to the > > > > tube and does not hurt the windshield. > > > > Sorry that 1/2 a message went out last night. > > > > Red Hamilton > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > Richard L. Ellis, M.D. > > > Gundersen Lutheran Health System > > > Co-Director > > > Norma J. Vinger Center for Breast Care > > > 1900 South Avenue > > > La Crosse, WI 54601 > > > 800.362.9567, ext. 52102 > > > rjrellis@yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Contributions > > any other > > Forums. > > > > http://www.matronics.com/chat > > > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Tailwind-List.htm > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > Richard L. Ellis, M.D. > Gundersen Lutheran Health System > Co-Director > Norma J. Vinger Center for Breast Care > 1900 South Avenue > La Crosse, WI 54601 > 800.362.9567, ext. 52102 > rjrellis@yahoo.com > > > __________________________________ > >