Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:54 AM - Re: W8 today (William Bernard)
2. 05:21 AM - Re: FW: [TailwindForum] Danny's W-8 (Eric Schlanser)
3. 05:59 AM - Larger lift struts anyone? (mike_tailwind@att.net)
4. 06:10 AM - Re: Larger lift struts anyone? (Jim and Donna Clement)
5. 07:17 AM - Re: tail wheel (Bob Wuilleumier)
6. 08:44 AM - Re: W8 today (Dan)
7. 09:00 AM - Re: Larger lift struts anyone? (mike_tailwind@att.net)
8. 05:40 PM - Re: FW: [TailwindForum] Danny's W-8 (Earl Luce)
9. 06:02 PM - Re: FW: [TailwindForum] Danny's W-8 (mytyweav@earthlink.net)
10. 06:29 PM - Re: FW: [TailwindForum] Danny's W-8 (Earl Luce)
11. 07:14 PM - Re: FW: [TailwindForum] Danny's W-8 (red)
12. 07:37 PM - Re: tail wheel (Mcculleyja@aol.com)
13. 08:31 PM - Re: tail wheel (Dennis Flamini)
Message 1
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--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "William Bernard" <billbernard@worldnet.att.net>
Danny, I don't suppose that part of the temperature problem is high oil
temps? Reason I ask is that Kent Paser, in his book, had high oil temps on
his Mustang II when he first flew it. This was eventually traced to an oil
cooler inlet on the top of the cowl that didn't flow air at high angles of
attack.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan" <dannyjoe@insightbb.com>
Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: W8 today
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Dan" <dannyjoe@insightbb.com>
>
> Bill,
> That is a naca type inlet for the oil cooler. The big scoop is pulling on
> the other end of that too.
> -Danny
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
> Bernard
> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 6:50 AM
> To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W8 today
>
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "William Bernard"
> <billbernard@worldnet.att.net>
>
> Danny, what is the flush inlet on the top of the cowl for?
>
> Bill
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: FW: [TailwindForum] Danny's W-8 |
Congratulations Dan. Hope to join you someday. Eric - W-10 under construction in
Kalamazoo. do not archive
Dan <dannyjoe@insightbb.com> wrote:
Rick,
Thanks are all I can say, but I sure am obliged and hope I can return the favor
in some way. Put some hours on that dammed thing. I am putting in an order
for a 6 inch wheel as soon as I get off here, and will dig through the aluminum
pile for rudder trim tab material.
I owe you big time man.
-Danny
---------------------------------
Message 3
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| Subject: | Larger lift struts anyone? |
0.70 RCVD_BY_IP Received by mail server with no name
0.01 RCVD_DOUBLE_IP_LOOSE Received: by and from look like IP addresses
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: mike_tailwind@att.net
I'm going to open a can of worms here. Is anyone using larger lift struts (2"
equivalent x .049) than the plans version (1.75 x .058)? I did some number crunching
and it looks like I can skip the spruce insert or the round tube insert,
and the strut will be stronger in compression and lighter by several pounds,
but slightly more drag.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Larger lift struts anyone? |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com>
Mike, the last of the original plans by Steve Wittman called for 2 3/8 X 1
inch X .049 with wood filler. Jim C
----- Original Message -----
From: <mike_tailwind@att.net>
Subject: Tailwind-List: Larger lift struts anyone?
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: mike_tailwind@att.net
>
> I'm going to open a can of worms here. Is anyone using larger lift struts
(2" equivalent x .049) than the plans version (1.75 x .058)? I did some
number crunching and it looks like I can skip the spruce insert or the round
tube insert, and the strut will be stronger in compression and lighter by
several pounds, but slightly more drag.
>
>
Message 5
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d="scan'208"; a="245590296:sNHT430032010"
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bob Wuilleumier" <rwuilleumier@charter.net>
Dave;
Read your info on 168A this morning. My 6168V figures out identically.
Clement makes a beautiful machine. Over the 2 years I've owned it I have
put in a full IFR panel with electric DG & Horizon. I saved and saved and
now have a Garmin 430 and a Garmin GTX 330 mode S transponder that shows the
traffic on the 430. And finally I had J. Clement install a TruTrak GPSS
tracking, vertical speed auto pilot. Everything except the Garmins was
installed by Clement. The fit was so tight that he said it couldn't be
done, but he did it. N6168V is the only tailwind he built that had the
instruments for VFR flight positioned in the panel such that all that other
stuff barely made it in from top to bottom. Someone gave us a mapping
Garmin handheld and my wife uses it on her lap to make sure I'm not getting
lost using the 430.
One little thing that I did was get a marine fan from West Marine (the 12v
round one diameter about that of a coffee can) and mounted it from the
ceiling with just the one screw that holds up the headliner in the center
about a foot or so behind the seats in the center.
Since I have put that in I do not even have to hold the doors open for taxi.
It comes on with the master and is an instant cool breeze. It is on a
swivel and can be retracted up to the ceiling when loading baggage.
I enjoy passing 1/2 million dollar and even more expensive machines without
even trying. One a recent 1 hr. and 15 minute flight I had a Malibu with
350 hp 4 bladed prop take off behind me going the same direction but beyond
my destination. He took off 5 minutes behind me and hadn't even caught up
when I was landing. He called approach control at 9,000 feet still about 5
minutes behind me. I was using 23" mp. Same experience with a new Mooney
who was a little faster but never did overtake me. When were were eating in
the same airport restaurant at the destination airport he exclaimed "How
fast does that thing go anyway? I was just behind you when I heard you
taking off from your airport and I never did catch you".
I don't have a vernitherm to control the oil temp in 68V. In Wisconsin it
typically runs too cool unless it is in the 80's. Everything I read says
180-185 degrees to avoid internal rust. I located low time used one in S.
California that a friend at French Valley found for me. Clement says he
will install it when I get it. I am not a Mechanic, just a happy pilot, so
I like being 15 minutes from Baraboo.
Anyway your information inspired me to tell you a little about my bird.
Actually I was planning on buying 168A and was patiently waiting for Jim to
finish it. Price and everything else was settled. Then one day a guy by
the name of Pete calls me and says "I hear you are looking to buy a Tailwind
Trike." I said yes I'm almost ready to close the deal on one. He said
"that one is not for sale any longer." I said "Is this a joke or something,
who is this anyway." He said "I bought Clement's first Trike and it is now
for sale. I have at least 10 hot buyers for it but Jim C. is going to sell
his 180 TW to Fred Weaver and he is going to keep 168A for himself, so it is
no longer available. He told me to call you and give you first shot on
6168V. I'll give you one week only because Jim C. recommended you first,
then it goes to highest of many bidders."
I was dumbfounded but that is how it went. That's why I have 6168V and you
now have 168A. Sounds like we're both happy fliers.
Bob & Sue Wuilleumier
----- Original Message -----
From: "DaveM" <dmagaw@att.net>
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: tail wheel
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "DaveM" <dmagaw@att.net>
>
> Well today I went to Oakdale and back to Yolo Co.. Each way I was running
> at 2600 RPM and at cruise burning 8.0 GPH (per the fuel flow gage which is
> fairly accurate). My ground speed on the way down averaged about 205 MPH
> which results in 25.6 MPG, and on the way back 170 MPH resulting in 21.2
> MPG. I have gone up to higher altitudes on other trips and got the fuel
> flow down to 7.5 GPH at an average cruise speed of 185 or 24.6 MPG.
>
> BTW, I have now put about 80 hours on N168A this year since March, which I
> figure I have traveled over 14,000 miles in it.
>
> I really like that plane.
> Dave
>
>
> > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver"
> <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
> >
> > Jim.... How is it that you think you are getting 27 to 30 miles per
> gallon?
> > I just figured out some of my best numbers and at 208 mph cruise speed,
> > burning 7.6 gallons per hour, I'm only getting 26... And those are
real
> > miles. That is a clean W10 that weighs a lot less, uses a Lycoming
0-360
> > with fixed pitch flying at 16000 feet running lean as can be.... Now...
> > With a favorable tailwind component, I've seen much bigger numbers but
> they
> > don't count for this discussion.
> > Malcolm, you have a clean trike running a Lyc 0-320.... What have you
> seen
> > as your best "real" mpg figure?
> > Dave Magaw, same parameters, same question? I would love to see Magaw's
> > numbers as he has flown the airplane over several thousand miles and at
> > altitudes that would provide good numbers.
> > Our aspect ratio's and efficiency just have to deliver better
results....
> > Jim, are you turning that engine down around 2200 rpm at altitudes
of????
> > And when you are, what is the "true airspeed" that provides you with
27-30
> > mpg?
> > All that without wheelpants and the flatbottomed W8 Wing? I'm
> stumped....
> > Weav
> >
>
>
Message 6
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Bill,
As you know the O-200s in Cessna 150's don't use an oil cooler. The cooling
problems on this plane stem from the high pressure area created by the
"hole" (see attached) (right side is oil cooler exit) at the firewall I
covered with the turd-bo-later scoop. I'm sure the oil cooler and the fancy
baffling are the result of the previous owner not realizing the air inlet
and outlet were fighting each other. If after downsizing the big scoop-- it
still cools properly, I will probably end up taking the oil cooler off and
putting a filter in its place. The first comment Rick made when he
originally saw my plane was about that high pressure area, the second was
age of the stickers on the rear windows. I guess one could do tuft testing
to check the air flow on that inlet; I did check it good for chipmunk nests.
Thanks Bill
-Danny
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Bernard
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W8 today
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "William Bernard"
<billbernard@worldnet.att.net>
Danny, I don't suppose that part of the temperature problem is high oil
temps? Reason I ask is that Kent Paser, in his book, had high oil temps on
his Mustang II when he first flew it. This was eventually traced to an oil
cooler inlet on the top of the cowl that didn't flow air at high angles of
attack.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan" <dannyjoe@insightbb.com>
Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: W8 today
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Dan" <dannyjoe@insightbb.com>
>
> Bill,
> That is a naca type inlet for the oil cooler. The big scoop is pulling on
> the other end of that too.
> -Danny
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
> Bernard
> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 6:50 AM
> To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W8 today
>
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "William Bernard"
> <billbernard@worldnet.att.net>
>
> Danny, what is the flush inlet on the top of the cowl for?
>
> Bill
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Larger lift struts anyone? |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: mike_tailwind@att.net
Hi Jim,
Thanks, the 2-3/8x1 is what I meant by 1.75" round tube equivalent. The new plans
show .058 now. I'm very tempted to skip the inserts and go with the 2.697
x 1.143 x.049.
By the way how are you making your stub struts? They look really nice.
-------------- Original message from "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com>: --------------
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com>
>
> Mike, the last of the original plans by Steve Wittman called for 2 3/8 X 1
> inch X .049 with wood filler. Jim C
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To:
> Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 7:58 AM
> Subject: Tailwind-List: Larger lift struts anyone?
>
>
> > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: mike_tailwind@att.net
> >
> > I'm going to open a can of worms here. Is anyone using larger lift struts
> (2" equivalent x .049) than the plans version (1.75 x .058)? I did some
> number crunching and it looks like I can skip the spruce insert or the round
> tube insert, and the strut will be stronger in compression and lighter by
> several pounds, but slightly more drag.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: FW: [TailwindForum] Danny's W-8 |
Danny,
I use the tailwheel itself for a trim tab on my TW . It works EXCELLENT . Just
offset the wheel by lenghting or shorting the control steering rod . No one
will notice when it sits on the ramp and they really can't see it when you go
by them in the air !
Earl Luce
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Schlanser
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: FW: [TailwindForum] Danny's W-8
Congratulations Dan. Hope to join you someday. Eric - W-10 under construction
in Kalamazoo. do not archive
Dan <dannyjoe@insightbb.com> wrote:
Rick,
Thanks are all I can say, but I sure am obliged and hope I can return the favor
in some way. Put some hours on that dammed thing. I am putting in an order
for a 6 inch wheel as soon as I get off here, and will dig through the aluminum
pile for rudder trim tab material.
I owe you big time man.
-Danny
---
Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 8/24/2004
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: FW: [TailwindForum] Danny's W-8 |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "mytyweav@earthlink.net" <mytyweav@earthlink.net>
man, you are so full of ......... hahahhahhaa.... Maybe on the "Cup"
but on a Tailwind? You gotta be kiddin' me..
Weav
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Earl Luce luceair@frontiernet.net
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: FW: [TailwindForum] Danny's W-8
Danny,
I use the tailwheel itself for a trim tab on my TW . It works EXCELLENT
. Just offset the wheel by lenghting or shorting the control steering rod .
No one will notice when it sits on the ramp and they really can't see it
when you go by them in the air !
Earl Luce
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Schlanser
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: FW: [TailwindForum] Danny's W-8
Congratulations Dan. Hope to join you someday. Eric - W-10 under
construction in Kalamazoo. do not archive
Dan <dannyjoe@insightbb.com> wrote:
Rick,
Thanks are all I can say, but I sure am obliged and hope I can return
the favor in some way. Put some hours on that dammed thing. I am putting
in an order for a 6 inch wheel as soon as I get off here, and will dig
through the aluminum pile for rudder trim tab material.
I owe you big time man.
-Danny
--
---
Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 8/24/2004
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: FW: [TailwindForum] Danny's W-8 |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Earl Luce" <luceair@frontiernet.net>
Weave,
You gotta try it ..............really it works !
Earl
----- Original Message -----
From: <mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: FW: [TailwindForum] Danny's W-8
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "mytyweav@earthlink.net"
<mytyweav@earthlink.net>
>
> man, you are so full of ......... hahahhahhaa.... Maybe on the "Cup"
> but on a Tailwind? You gotta be kiddin' me..
> Weav
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Earl Luce luceair@frontiernet.net
> Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 20:41:38 -0400
> To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: FW: [TailwindForum] Danny's W-8
>
>
> Danny,
> I use the tailwheel itself for a trim tab on my TW . It works
EXCELLENT
> . Just offset the wheel by lenghting or shorting the control steering rod
.
> No one will notice when it sits on the ramp and they really can't see it
> when you go by them in the air !
> Earl Luce
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Eric Schlanser
> To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 8:21 AM
> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: FW: [TailwindForum] Danny's W-8
>
>
> Congratulations Dan. Hope to join you someday. Eric - W-10 under
> construction in Kalamazoo. do not archive
>
> Dan <dannyjoe@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
>
> Rick,
>
> Thanks are all I can say, but I sure am obliged and hope I can return
> the favor in some way. Put some hours on that dammed thing. I am putting
> in an order for a 6 inch wheel as soon as I get off here, and will dig
> through the aluminum pile for rudder trim tab material.
>
> I owe you big time man.
>
> -Danny
>
>
--
> --
>
>
> ---
> Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 8/24/2004
>
>
---
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: FW: [TailwindForum] Danny's W-8 |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "red" <redswings@reds-headers.com>
It works for me also.
Red
----- Original Message -----
From: "Earl Luce" <luceair@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: FW: [TailwindForum] Danny's W-8
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Earl Luce" <luceair@frontiernet.net>
>
> Weave,
> You gotta try it ..............really it works !
> Earl
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <mytyweav@earthlink.net>
> To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 9:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: FW: [TailwindForum] Danny's W-8
>
>
> > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "mytyweav@earthlink.net"
> <mytyweav@earthlink.net>
> >
> > man, you are so full of ......... hahahhahhaa.... Maybe on the "Cup"
> > but on a Tailwind? You gotta be kiddin' me..
> > Weav
> >
> > Original Message:
> > -----------------
> > From: Earl Luce luceair@frontiernet.net
> > Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 20:41:38 -0400
> > To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: FW: [TailwindForum] Danny's W-8
> >
> >
> > Danny,
> > I use the tailwheel itself for a trim tab on my TW . It works
> EXCELLENT
> > . Just offset the wheel by lenghting or shorting the control steering
rod
> .
> > No one will notice when it sits on the ramp and they really can't see it
> > when you go by them in the air !
> > Earl Luce
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Eric Schlanser
> > To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
> > Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 8:21 AM
> > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: FW: [TailwindForum] Danny's W-8
> >
> >
> > Congratulations Dan. Hope to join you someday. Eric - W-10 under
> > construction in Kalamazoo. do not archive
> >
> > Dan <dannyjoe@insightbb.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Rick,
> >
> > Thanks are all I can say, but I sure am obliged and hope I can
return
> > the favor in some way. Put some hours on that dammed thing. I am
putting
> > in an order for a 6 inch wheel as soon as I get off here, and will dig
> > through the aluminum pile for rudder trim tab material.
> >
> > I owe you big time man.
> >
> > -Danny
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> > --
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 8/24/2004
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ---
> Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 8/24/2004
>
>
Message 12
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--> Tailwind-List message posted by: Mcculleyja@aol.com
Fred,
There is no magic about the 27 to 30 mile-per-gallon figures. As I'm sure
you know, maximum long range cruise at high miles per gallon can't be done at
the "all-out" power settings of a given airplane (in the case of some Tailwinds,
that can be speeds of 200 plus). This is true of ANY airplane.
As I said in my previous message, I am more interested in long range cruise
than in maximum speed travel and they are never the same set of conditions in
any given airplane.
However, the high speed capability is a useful indicator of the aerodynamic
cleanliness which also affects the maximum mile-per-gallon performance.
The reason I have a CS prop is to be able to turn the engine at lower RPM,
while using higher MAP, to optimize both engine and prop efficiencies and thus
get lower BSFC results. I also have a Bendix pressure carburetor which is in
effect a single point injection system, and can effectively utilize LOP
operation. I consistently operate in the .39 to .41 BSFC range and keep the percent
rated power below 60% where LOP reduces both CHT's and EGT's to levels that
are not capable of damaging cylinders and valves. Also, I prefer to operate
above 8,000 feet where full open throttle can be used to further reduce engine
pumping losses. We did all of these things routinely with the big radial
engines in both the military and airlines. The principles are the same with any
gasoline engine. The military learned about this from Lindberg while he flew as
a civilian tech rep in P-38's in the Pacific during WW2. It increased the
P-38's previous combat range about 50% and allowed them to escort the bombers
several hundred more miles to distant enemy islands that were previously out of
reach because the escort fighters couldn't stay with them that far.
The true airspeeds I usually use are in the 150 to 170 range depending on
altitude and payload. The best L/D IAS will always give the maximum possible
range, but this is painfully slow. In most Tailwinds that is around 100 to 110
which produces up to about 132 TAS at 10,000 feet. However, there is a speed
called Carson's speed (1.316 times max L/D speed) that produces much better
speed for a very small added penalty in higher fuel rate. For most Tailwinds
this would be around 135 to 140 IAS and about 155 to 169 TAS at the 10,000
level. Well above 30 MPG is easy in the Tailwind if you are willing to fly at
the
best L/D speed. Max Conrad (the famous Flying Grandfather of the '50's
&'60's) maximized this in Piper aircraft with such non-stop flights as from Africa
to CA.
As one example, a specific set of numbers I can achieve with my bird at
10,000 feet is 160 TAS and 5.8 GPH while at 136 IAS, 1950 RPM, 20.5 inches MAP
(full throttle and LOP). This gives 27.6 MPG and .39 BSFC, for a range of 1104
miles with a reserve of 50 minutes. Fuel capacity is 45 gallons. Obviously, If
I want to turn up the engine faster, and run richer and hotter it will
certainly get to the next fuel stop quicker. But frequently that would make the
elapsed time of a long trip greater due to more frequent fuel stops (and more
expense for fuel). The beauty of it all is that the Tailwind was very
appropriately named because the owner can have his own built-in tailwind if he
chooses,
by going like a bat outta hell if he wants! As Dave Magaw pointed out, there
are few spam cans that can be competitive with a Tailwind if they are
operated in like manner (ie. both wide open or both in max range mode).
Fred, I hope this has answered your concerns. BTW, my wing is not flat
bottomed. It has the same configuration as the W-10, but with the earlier style
wing tips. Thanks for your concerns and questions. If I have missed anything
or you want more (facts or opinions!) fire away-- I always find I learn new
things through these discussions. I have a friend whose saying is: "It's good
to know stuff"
Jim McCulley
---------------
In a message dated 9/2/04 12:45:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Mytyweav@earthlink.net writes:
> Jim.... How is it that you think you are getting 27 to 30 miles per gallon?
> I just figured out some of my best numbers and at 208 mph cruise speed,
> burning 7.6 gallons per hour, I'm only getting 26... And those are real
> miles. That is a clean W10 that weighs a lot less, uses a Lycoming 0-360
> with fixed pitch flying at 16000 feet running lean as can be.... Now...
> With a favorable tailwind component, I've seen much bigger numbers but they
> don't count for this discussion.
> Malcolm, you have a clean trike running a Lyc 0-320.... What have you
seen
> as your best "real" mpg figure?
> Dave Magaw, same parameters, same question? I would love to see Magaw's
> numbers as he has flown the airplane over several thousand miles and at
> altitudes that would provide good numbers.
> Our aspect ratio's and efficiency just have to deliver better results....
> Jim, are you turning that engine down around 2200 rpm at altitudes of????
> And when you are, what is the "true airspeed" that provides you with 27-30
> mpg?
> All that without wheelpants and the flatbottomed W8 Wing? I'm
stumped....
> Weav
-------------
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--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Dennis Flamini" <flamini2@comcast.net>
Jim,
i agree with all of your numbers but i have done lots of trips at 10,500'
and 2100 rpm and only see 160mph indicated (140kts true) and on several
trips past St Louis it averaged 10 gph at those settings, 1.5 hrs and 15
gals each way for 205 nm or 14 nmpg. These are real world take off, climb
and land and fuel up numbers and granted mine is not the fastest TW out
there but i can get 2 big guys and their gear and 2 fold up bikes to St
Louis pretty fast.
PS: going from Chicago to Blakesburg, IA (IA27) 225nm for the antique fly-in
tomorrow am if anyone else is in the area.
i will do another round trip report.
Weav,
How about some numbers from you, not just cruise but fill it up after you
taxi.
Dennis Flamini N564DF race #53 Chicago
----- Original Message -----
From: <Mcculleyja@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: tail wheel
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Mcculleyja@aol.com
>
> Fred,
>
> There is no magic about the 27 to 30 mile-per-gallon figures. As I'm sure
> you know, maximum long range cruise at high miles per gallon can't be done
at
> the "all-out" power settings of a given airplane (in the case of some
Tailwinds,
> that can be speeds of 200 plus). This is true of ANY airplane.
>
> As I said in my previous message, I am more interested in long range
cruise
> than in maximum speed travel and they are never the same set of conditions
in
> any given airplane.
>
> However, the high speed capability is a useful indicator of the
aerodynamic
> cleanliness which also affects the maximum mile-per-gallon performance.
>
> The reason I have a CS prop is to be able to turn the engine at lower RPM,
> while using higher MAP, to optimize both engine and prop efficiencies and
thus
> get lower BSFC results. I also have a Bendix pressure carburetor which is
in
> effect a single point injection system, and can effectively utilize LOP
> operation. I consistently operate in the .39 to .41 BSFC range and keep
the percent
> rated power below 60% where LOP reduces both CHT's and EGT's to levels
that
> are not capable of damaging cylinders and valves. Also, I prefer to
operate
> above 8,000 feet where full open throttle can be used to further reduce
engine
> pumping losses. We did all of these things routinely with the big radial
> engines in both the military and airlines. The principles are the same
with any
> gasoline engine. The military learned about this from Lindberg while he
flew as
> a civilian tech rep in P-38's in the Pacific during WW2. It increased the
> P-38's previous combat range about 50% and allowed them to escort the
bombers
> several hundred more miles to distant enemy islands that were previously
out of
> reach because the escort fighters couldn't stay with them that far.
>
> The true airspeeds I usually use are in the 150 to 170 range depending on
> altitude and payload. The best L/D IAS will always give the maximum
possible
> range, but this is painfully slow. In most Tailwinds that is around 100
to 110
> which produces up to about 132 TAS at 10,000 feet. However, there is a
speed
> called Carson's speed (1.316 times max L/D speed) that produces much
better
> speed for a very small added penalty in higher fuel rate. For most
Tailwinds
> this would be around 135 to 140 IAS and about 155 to 169 TAS at the 10,000
> level. Well above 30 MPG is easy in the Tailwind if you are willing to
fly at the
> best L/D speed. Max Conrad (the famous Flying Grandfather of the '50's
> &'60's) maximized this in Piper aircraft with such non-stop flights as
from Africa
> to CA.
>
> As one example, a specific set of numbers I can achieve with my bird at
> 10,000 feet is 160 TAS and 5.8 GPH while at 136 IAS, 1950 RPM, 20.5 inches
MAP
> (full throttle and LOP). This gives 27.6 MPG and .39 BSFC, for a range of
1104
> miles with a reserve of 50 minutes. Fuel capacity is 45 gallons.
Obviously, If
> I want to turn up the engine faster, and run richer and hotter it will
> certainly get to the next fuel stop quicker. But frequently that would
make the
> elapsed time of a long trip greater due to more frequent fuel stops (and
more
> expense for fuel). The beauty of it all is that the Tailwind was very
> appropriately named because the owner can have his own built-in tailwind
if he chooses,
> by going like a bat outta hell if he wants! As Dave Magaw pointed out,
there
> are few spam cans that can be competitive with a Tailwind if they are
> operated in like manner (ie. both wide open or both in max range mode).
>
> Fred, I hope this has answered your concerns. BTW, my wing is not flat
> bottomed. It has the same configuration as the W-10, but with the earlier
style
> wing tips. Thanks for your concerns and questions. If I have missed
anything
> or you want more (facts or opinions!) fire away-- I always find I learn
new
> things through these discussions. I have a friend whose saying is: "It's
good
> to know stuff"
>
> Jim McCulley
----
> ---------------
> In a message dated 9/2/04 12:45:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> Mytyweav@earthlink.net writes:
>
> > Jim.... How is it that you think you are getting 27 to 30 miles per
gallon?
> > I just figured out some of my best numbers and at 208 mph cruise speed,
> > burning 7.6 gallons per hour, I'm only getting 26... And those are
real
> > miles. That is a clean W10 that weighs a lot less, uses a Lycoming
0-360
> > with fixed pitch flying at 16000 feet running lean as can be....
Now...
> > With a favorable tailwind component, I've seen much bigger numbers but
they
> > don't count for this discussion.
> > Malcolm, you have a clean trike running a Lyc 0-320.... What have you
> seen
> > as your best "real" mpg figure?
> > Dave Magaw, same parameters, same question? I would love to see
Magaw's
> > numbers as he has flown the airplane over several thousand miles and at
> > altitudes that would provide good numbers.
> > Our aspect ratio's and efficiency just have to deliver better
results....
> > Jim, are you turning that engine down around 2200 rpm at altitudes
of????
> > And when you are, what is the "true airspeed" that provides you with
27-30
> > mpg?
> > All that without wheelpants and the flatbottomed W8 Wing? I'm
> stumped....
> > Weav
----
>
>
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