Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:42 AM - Re: tail wheel (Mcculleyja@aol.com)
2. 11:08 AM - Re: Weav's Fuel numbers (Fred Weaver)
3. 11:16 AM - Re: tail wheel (Fred Weaver)
4. 11:58 AM - O-320 (CJ Kirby Memphis Tailwind)
5. 12:11 PM - Re: Re: Weav's Fuel numbers (Dan)
6. 07:56 PM - Re: Re: Weav's Fuel numbers (Mcculleyja@aol.com)
7. 10:41 PM - Re: Re: Weav's Fuel numbers (flamini2)
8. 11:53 PM - Fw: W10 Wing (Keith Imel)
Message 1
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--> Tailwind-List message posted by: Mcculleyja@aol.com
Dennis,
Are you accidentally confusing IAS with TAS? 160 mph IAS (140 K) at 10,500
would be about 190 to 193 mph (165 to 168 K) TAS. This would require power
levels around the 75% level or greater, which your fuel rate indicates you were
near. This is well beyond the power levels and IAS levels that are necessary
in order to achieve the long range, high MPG results that I was talking about.
For those results you would have to be in the 130 IAS range at 10,500 feet.
Jim
In a message dated 9/3/04 11:33:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
flamini2@comcast.net writes:
> Jim,
> i agree with all of your numbers but i have done lots of trips at 10,500'
> and 2100 rpm and only see 160mph indicated (140kts true) and on several
> trips past St Louis it averaged 10 gph at those settings,
Dennis,
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Weav's Fuel numbers |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Dennis:
All my data is from engine start to engine stop.... Takes into
consideration all fuel used in Taxi, Takeoff, climb to altitude, cruise,
descent, landing and taxi to the pumps.... Of course, I could have the
clock running then too but I don't start it until I am taking off... It
would only enhance the results. I only track time from Takeoff to shutdown.
Why? I always forget to look at the clock when my wheels are touching down.
It's always easier to write down the time after the engine is shut down in
front of the pump.
I think the best I ever got (versus time) was 29.985 mpg when Ted and I
flew from Bonners Ferry, Idaho to Gwinner, ND... 884.58 miles, 29.5
gallons, 4 hours @ 17,500 to 18,000 ft. From one pump to the next.. makes it
easy to find the truth. :) I guess it could have been better had we
slowed down some but it was just too cool zipping along over Montana and
North Dakota...Might have even been better if we weren't so packed down with
luggage..
Jim might be onto something with his formulas....
When I flew next to the Fourunner on the way to Baraboo this year, I had the
opportunity to fly much slower than usual at 9,500 ft. We flew from
Cooperstown, ND to Baraboo, Wi in 3 hours and 5 minutes. 484.495 miles if we
could fly a straight line... Again, from pump to pump it used 15.5 gallons.
Hmmmm 31.26 miles per gallon... That was at 15 inches MAP, 2000 rpm and
somewhat lean. I have difficulty flying on LOP as the induction system just
doesn't distribute evenly enough to allow the engine to run without quite a
stumble.
Were these the numbers you were looking for?
Weav
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Flamini" <flamini2@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: tail wheel
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Dennis Flamini"
<flamini2@comcast.net>
>
> Jim,
> i agree with all of your numbers but i have done lots of trips at 10,500'
> and 2100 rpm and only see 160mph indicated (140kts true) and on several
> trips past St Louis it averaged 10 gph at those settings, 1.5 hrs and 15
> gals each way for 205 nm or 14 nmpg. These are real world take off, climb
> and land and fuel up numbers and granted mine is not the fastest TW out
> there but i can get 2 big guys and their gear and 2 fold up bikes to St
> Louis pretty fast.
>
> PS: going from Chicago to Blakesburg, IA (IA27) 225nm for the antique
fly-in
> tomorrow am if anyone else is in the area.
> i will do another round trip report.
>
> Weav,
> How about some numbers from you, not just cruise but fill it up after you
> taxi.
> Dennis Flamini N564DF race #53 Chicago
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Mcculleyja@aol.com>
> To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 9:36 PM
> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: tail wheel
>
>
> > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Mcculleyja@aol.com
> >
> > Fred,
> >
> > There is no magic about the 27 to 30 mile-per-gallon figures. As I'm
sure
> > you know, maximum long range cruise at high miles per gallon can't be
done
> at
> > the "all-out" power settings of a given airplane (in the case of some
> Tailwinds,
> > that can be speeds of 200 plus). This is true of ANY airplane.
> >
> > As I said in my previous message, I am more interested in long range
> cruise
> > than in maximum speed travel and they are never the same set of
conditions
> in
> > any given airplane.
> >
> > However, the high speed capability is a useful indicator of the
> aerodynamic
> > cleanliness which also affects the maximum mile-per-gallon performance.
> >
> > The reason I have a CS prop is to be able to turn the engine at lower
RPM,
> > while using higher MAP, to optimize both engine and prop efficiencies
and
> thus
> > get lower BSFC results. I also have a Bendix pressure carburetor which
is
> in
> > effect a single point injection system, and can effectively utilize LOP
> > operation. I consistently operate in the .39 to .41 BSFC range and keep
> the percent
> > rated power below 60% where LOP reduces both CHT's and EGT's to levels
> that
> > are not capable of damaging cylinders and valves. Also, I prefer to
> operate
> > above 8,000 feet where full open throttle can be used to further reduce
> engine
> > pumping losses. We did all of these things routinely with the big
radial
> > engines in both the military and airlines. The principles are the same
> with any
> > gasoline engine. The military learned about this from Lindberg while he
> flew as
> > a civilian tech rep in P-38's in the Pacific during WW2. It increased
the
> > P-38's previous combat range about 50% and allowed them to escort the
> bombers
> > several hundred more miles to distant enemy islands that were previously
> out of
> > reach because the escort fighters couldn't stay with them that far.
> >
> > The true airspeeds I usually use are in the 150 to 170 range depending
on
> > altitude and payload. The best L/D IAS will always give the maximum
> possible
> > range, but this is painfully slow. In most Tailwinds that is around 100
> to 110
> > which produces up to about 132 TAS at 10,000 feet. However, there is a
> speed
> > called Carson's speed (1.316 times max L/D speed) that produces much
> better
> > speed for a very small added penalty in higher fuel rate. For most
> Tailwinds
> > this would be around 135 to 140 IAS and about 155 to 169 TAS at the
10,000
> > level. Well above 30 MPG is easy in the Tailwind if you are willing to
> fly at the
> > best L/D speed. Max Conrad (the famous Flying Grandfather of the '50's
> > &'60's) maximized this in Piper aircraft with such non-stop flights as
> from Africa
> > to CA.
> >
> > As one example, a specific set of numbers I can achieve with my bird at
> > 10,000 feet is 160 TAS and 5.8 GPH while at 136 IAS, 1950 RPM, 20.5
inches
> MAP
> > (full throttle and LOP). This gives 27.6 MPG and .39 BSFC, for a range
of
> 1104
> > miles with a reserve of 50 minutes. Fuel capacity is 45 gallons.
> Obviously, If
> > I want to turn up the engine faster, and run richer and hotter it will
> > certainly get to the next fuel stop quicker. But frequently that would
> make the
> > elapsed time of a long trip greater due to more frequent fuel stops (and
> more
> > expense for fuel). The beauty of it all is that the Tailwind was very
> > appropriately named because the owner can have his own built-in tailwind
> if he chooses,
> > by going like a bat outta hell if he wants! As Dave Magaw pointed out,
> there
> > are few spam cans that can be competitive with a Tailwind if they are
> > operated in like manner (ie. both wide open or both in max range mode).
> >
> > Fred, I hope this has answered your concerns. BTW, my wing is not flat
> > bottomed. It has the same configuration as the W-10, but with the
earlier
> style
> > wing tips. Thanks for your concerns and questions. If I have missed
> anything
> > or you want more (facts or opinions!) fire away-- I always find I learn
> new
> > things through these discussions. I have a friend whose saying is:
"It's
> good
> > to know stuff"
> >
> > Jim McCulley
>
> ----
> > ---------------
> > In a message dated 9/2/04 12:45:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > Mytyweav@earthlink.net writes:
> >
> > > Jim.... How is it that you think you are getting 27 to 30 miles per
> gallon?
> > > I just figured out some of my best numbers and at 208 mph cruise
speed,
> > > burning 7.6 gallons per hour, I'm only getting 26... And those are
> real
> > > miles. That is a clean W10 that weighs a lot less, uses a Lycoming
> 0-360
> > > with fixed pitch flying at 16000 feet running lean as can be....
> Now...
> > > With a favorable tailwind component, I've seen much bigger numbers
but
> they
> > > don't count for this discussion.
> > > Malcolm, you have a clean trike running a Lyc 0-320.... What have
you
> > seen
> > > as your best "real" mpg figure?
> > > Dave Magaw, same parameters, same question? I would love to see
> Magaw's
> > > numbers as he has flown the airplane over several thousand miles and
at
> > > altitudes that would provide good numbers.
> > > Our aspect ratio's and efficiency just have to deliver better
> results....
> > > Jim, are you turning that engine down around 2200 rpm at altitudes
> of????
> > > And when you are, what is the "true airspeed" that provides you with
> 27-30
> > > mpg?
> > > All that without wheelpants and the flatbottomed W8 Wing? I'm
> > stumped....
> > > Weav
>
> ----
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 3
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--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Jim, he isn't confused..... That's as fast as it will go. :)
----- Original Message -----
From: <Mcculleyja@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: tail wheel
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Mcculleyja@aol.com
>
> Dennis,
>
> Are you accidentally confusing IAS with TAS? 160 mph IAS (140 K) at
10,500
> would be about 190 to 193 mph (165 to 168 K) TAS. This would require
power
> levels around the 75% level or greater, which your fuel rate indicates you
were
> near. This is well beyond the power levels and IAS levels that are
necessary
> in order to achieve the long range, high MPG results that I was talking
about.
> For those results you would have to be in the 130 IAS range at 10,500
feet.
>
> Jim
>
> In a message dated 9/3/04 11:33:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> flamini2@comcast.net writes:
>
> > Jim,
> > i agree with all of your numbers but i have done lots of trips at
10,500'
> > and 2100 rpm and only see 160mph indicated (140kts true) and on several
> > trips past St Louis it averaged 10 gph at those settings,
>
> Dennis,
>
>
Message 4
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--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "CJ Kirby Memphis Tailwind" <memphistailwind@bellsouth.net>
Hey guys,
Ribs are almost done. Time to start looking for a motor. If anyone knows
where I can find an O-320 D or E model with a dynafocal engine mount, solid
crank, I would be very appreciative. I would like to find one that is in
running condition, high time SMOH, no log books needed, with accessories.
AND CHEAP
Thanks
CJ Kirby
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Weav's Fuel numbers |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Dan" <dannyjoe@insightbb.com>
Fred,
I just read in I think this month's Sport Av that you can lean this way:
Pull mixture until roughness... pull carb heat until smoothness. You repeat
this process once. Anyone else read this I can't seem to find it now.
Anyone ever tried the technique?
-Danny
I have difficulty flying on LOP as the induction system just
doesn't distribute evenly enough to allow the engine to run without quite a
stumble.
Were these the numbers you were looking for?
Weav
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Weav's Fuel numbers |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: Mcculleyja@aol.com
Danny,
That is the technique I always use and it does work, but not very helpful (at
least on Lycomings) unless the carb inlet air temp is below 40 to 50 degrees
F. I have a temperature sensor at the carb inlet and find that the ideal
amount of heat to add this way is just enough to bring the inlet air up to between
75 to 80 or so. On Lycomings which pass the induction pipes through the hot
oil sump, there will be higher temps added to what is seen at the carb inlet
and at some point significant power is lost by this further overheating prior
to reaching the intake valves. The theory seems to be that making the
condition the cylinder sees look like summertime when the outside air is really
winter-like, helps to improve the fuel vaporization more than it hinders through
reducing the density of the mixture. This better vaporization creates more
uniform combustion from cylinder to cylinder and thus creates a smoother running
engine.
If you use this carb heat trick, there will usually be a small reduction in
engine power, which you can then add back by advancing the throttle to restore
the MAP to that which existed BEFORE you added carb heat. However, if you
were at the ideal condition of using wide open throttle before adding carb heat,
there will be no way to make up this power loss, but the engine running
smoother will let you at least operate at lower GPH and you still win on MPG if
not
overdone. Even without a temperature sensor you can usually gain in cold
weather but it is much better done and more productive with the knowledge of carb
inlet air temperature.
One caution to observe for engine longevity is to NOT attempt LOP, with or
without
the carb heat trick, at power levels above about 60% of maximum rated engine
output. The carb heat also seems to work better with even lower power levels
than the upper suggested level of 60%.
Jim
In a message dated 9/4/04 3:12:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dannyjoe@insightbb.com writes:
> I just read in I think this month's Sport Av that you can lean this way:
> Pull mixture until roughness... pull carb heat until smoothness. You
repeat
> this process once. Anyone else read this I can't seem to find it now.
> Anyone ever tried the technique?
> -Danny
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Weav's Fuel numbers |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "flamini2" <flamini2@comcast.net>
Made the trip to Iowa today, 225nm ea way for 450nm total, filled up after
with 29.7 gals.
These are the only numbers we should be comparing and i even took my wheel
covers off.
Weav and others,
How about some round trip totals?
Dennis Flamini N564DF race #53 Chicago
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Subject: Tailwind-List: Re: Weav's Fuel numbers
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver"
<Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
>
> Dennis:
> All my data is from engine start to engine stop.... Takes into
> consideration all fuel used in Taxi, Takeoff, climb to altitude, cruise,
> descent, landing and taxi to the pumps.... Of course, I could have the
> clock running then too but I don't start it until I am taking off... It
> would only enhance the results. I only track time from Takeoff to
shutdown.
> Why? I always forget to look at the clock when my wheels are touching
down.
> It's always easier to write down the time after the engine is shut down in
> front of the pump.
> I think the best I ever got (versus time) was 29.985 mpg when Ted and I
> flew from Bonners Ferry, Idaho to Gwinner, ND... 884.58 miles, 29.5
> gallons, 4 hours @ 17,500 to 18,000 ft. From one pump to the next.. makes
it
> easy to find the truth. :) I guess it could have been better had we
> slowed down some but it was just too cool zipping along over Montana and
> North Dakota...Might have even been better if we weren't so packed down
with
> luggage..
>
> Jim might be onto something with his formulas....
>
> When I flew next to the Fourunner on the way to Baraboo this year, I had
the
> opportunity to fly much slower than usual at 9,500 ft. We flew from
> Cooperstown, ND to Baraboo, Wi in 3 hours and 5 minutes. 484.495 miles if
we
> could fly a straight line... Again, from pump to pump it used 15.5
gallons.
> Hmmmm 31.26 miles per gallon... That was at 15 inches MAP, 2000 rpm
and
> somewhat lean. I have difficulty flying on LOP as the induction system
just
> doesn't distribute evenly enough to allow the engine to run without quite
a
> stumble.
> Were these the numbers you were looking for?
> Weav
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dennis Flamini" <flamini2@comcast.net>
> To: <TailwindForum@yahoogroups.com>; <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 8:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: tail wheel
>
>
> > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Dennis Flamini"
> <flamini2@comcast.net>
> >
> > Jim,
> > i agree with all of your numbers but i have done lots of trips at
10,500'
> > and 2100 rpm and only see 160mph indicated (140kts true) and on several
> > trips past St Louis it averaged 10 gph at those settings, 1.5 hrs and 15
> > gals each way for 205 nm or 14 nmpg. These are real world take off,
climb
> > and land and fuel up numbers and granted mine is not the fastest TW out
> > there but i can get 2 big guys and their gear and 2 fold up bikes to St
> > Louis pretty fast.
> >
> > PS: going from Chicago to Blakesburg, IA (IA27) 225nm for the antique
> fly-in
> > tomorrow am if anyone else is in the area.
> > i will do another round trip report.
> >
> > Weav,
> > How about some numbers from you, not just cruise but fill it up after
you
> > taxi.
> > Dennis Flamini N564DF race #53 Chicago
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <Mcculleyja@aol.com>
> > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 9:36 PM
> > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: tail wheel
> >
> >
> > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Mcculleyja@aol.com
> > >
> > > Fred,
> > >
> > > There is no magic about the 27 to 30 mile-per-gallon figures. As I'm
> sure
> > > you know, maximum long range cruise at high miles per gallon can't be
> done
> > at
> > > the "all-out" power settings of a given airplane (in the case of some
> > Tailwinds,
> > > that can be speeds of 200 plus). This is true of ANY airplane.
> > >
> > > As I said in my previous message, I am more interested in long range
> > cruise
> > > than in maximum speed travel and they are never the same set of
> conditions
> > in
> > > any given airplane.
> > >
> > > However, the high speed capability is a useful indicator of the
> > aerodynamic
> > > cleanliness which also affects the maximum mile-per-gallon
performance.
> > >
> > > The reason I have a CS prop is to be able to turn the engine at lower
> RPM,
> > > while using higher MAP, to optimize both engine and prop efficiencies
> and
> > thus
> > > get lower BSFC results. I also have a Bendix pressure carburetor
which
> is
> > in
> > > effect a single point injection system, and can effectively utilize
LOP
> > > operation. I consistently operate in the .39 to .41 BSFC range and
keep
> > the percent
> > > rated power below 60% where LOP reduces both CHT's and EGT's to levels
> > that
> > > are not capable of damaging cylinders and valves. Also, I prefer to
> > operate
> > > above 8,000 feet where full open throttle can be used to further
reduce
> > engine
> > > pumping losses. We did all of these things routinely with the big
> radial
> > > engines in both the military and airlines. The principles are the
same
> > with any
> > > gasoline engine. The military learned about this from Lindberg while
he
> > flew as
> > > a civilian tech rep in P-38's in the Pacific during WW2. It increased
> the
> > > P-38's previous combat range about 50% and allowed them to escort the
> > bombers
> > > several hundred more miles to distant enemy islands that were
previously
> > out of
> > > reach because the escort fighters couldn't stay with them that far.
> > >
> > > The true airspeeds I usually use are in the 150 to 170 range depending
> on
> > > altitude and payload. The best L/D IAS will always give the maximum
> > possible
> > > range, but this is painfully slow. In most Tailwinds that is around
100
> > to 110
> > > which produces up to about 132 TAS at 10,000 feet. However, there is
a
> > speed
> > > called Carson's speed (1.316 times max L/D speed) that produces much
> > better
> > > speed for a very small added penalty in higher fuel rate. For most
> > Tailwinds
> > > this would be around 135 to 140 IAS and about 155 to 169 TAS at the
> 10,000
> > > level. Well above 30 MPG is easy in the Tailwind if you are willing
to
> > fly at the
> > > best L/D speed. Max Conrad (the famous Flying Grandfather of the
'50's
> > > &'60's) maximized this in Piper aircraft with such non-stop flights as
> > from Africa
> > > to CA.
> > >
> > > As one example, a specific set of numbers I can achieve with my bird
at
> > > 10,000 feet is 160 TAS and 5.8 GPH while at 136 IAS, 1950 RPM, 20.5
> inches
> > MAP
> > > (full throttle and LOP). This gives 27.6 MPG and .39 BSFC, for a
range
> of
> > 1104
> > > miles with a reserve of 50 minutes. Fuel capacity is 45 gallons.
> > Obviously, If
> > > I want to turn up the engine faster, and run richer and hotter it will
> > > certainly get to the next fuel stop quicker. But frequently that
would
> > make the
> > > elapsed time of a long trip greater due to more frequent fuel stops
(and
> > more
> > > expense for fuel). The beauty of it all is that the Tailwind was very
> > > appropriately named because the owner can have his own built-in
tailwind
> > if he chooses,
> > > by going like a bat outta hell if he wants! As Dave Magaw pointed
out,
> > there
> > > are few spam cans that can be competitive with a Tailwind if they are
> > > operated in like manner (ie. both wide open or both in max range
mode).
> > >
> > > Fred, I hope this has answered your concerns. BTW, my wing is not
flat
> > > bottomed. It has the same configuration as the W-10, but with the
> earlier
> > style
> > > wing tips. Thanks for your concerns and questions. If I have missed
> > anything
> > > or you want more (facts or opinions!) fire away-- I always find I
learn
> > new
> > > things through these discussions. I have a friend whose saying is:
> "It's
> > good
> > > to know stuff"
> > >
> > > Jim McCulley
> >
>
> > ----
> > > ---------------
> > > In a message dated 9/2/04 12:45:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > Mytyweav@earthlink.net writes:
> > >
> > > > Jim.... How is it that you think you are getting 27 to 30 miles per
> > gallon?
> > > > I just figured out some of my best numbers and at 208 mph cruise
> speed,
> > > > burning 7.6 gallons per hour, I'm only getting 26... And those
are
> > real
> > > > miles. That is a clean W10 that weighs a lot less, uses a
Lycoming
> > 0-360
> > > > with fixed pitch flying at 16000 feet running lean as can be....
> > Now...
> > > > With a favorable tailwind component, I've seen much bigger numbers
> but
> > they
> > > > don't count for this discussion.
> > > > Malcolm, you have a clean trike running a Lyc 0-320.... What have
> you
> > > seen
> > > > as your best "real" mpg figure?
> > > > Dave Magaw, same parameters, same question? I would love to see
> > Magaw's
> > > > numbers as he has flown the airplane over several thousand miles
and
> at
> > > > altitudes that would provide good numbers.
> > > > Our aspect ratio's and efficiency just have to deliver better
> > results....
> > > > Jim, are you turning that engine down around 2200 rpm at altitudes
> > of????
> > > > And when you are, what is the "true airspeed" that provides you
with
> > 27-30
> > > > mpg?
> > > > All that without wheelpants and the flatbottomed W8 Wing? I'm
> > > stumped....
> > > > Weav
> >
>
> > ----
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Message 8
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----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Imel
Subject: W10 Wing
Hey Guys,
Well this is the first time I have tried to post a photo so I hope it is okay.
This is the wing that I started to remove the plywood. It is coming off way to
easy. You can see the wing tanks that the original builder installed. I am thinking
that to much of the ribs are cut out to make room for the tanks??? I will
post more photos after I get some feedback on how this picture came out.
Thanks guys for all your help
Keith
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