---------------------------------------------------------- Tailwind-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/08/04: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:10 AM - Re: engine mount (Bob Conner) 2. 05:32 AM - W10 Wing (Ruhnke, Mike) 3. 06:15 AM - Re: W10 Wing (Jim and Donna Clement) 4. 06:34 AM - Re: engine mount (dmagaw@att.net) 5. 06:36 AM - Re: W10 Wing (Louis Owen) 6. 06:58 AM - Re: W10 Wing (Ruhnke, Mike) 7. 07:07 AM - Re: W10 Wing (Fred Weaver) 8. 07:36 AM - Re: W10 Wing (Ruhnke, Mike) 9. 08:22 AM - Re: W10 Wing (Fred Weaver) 10. 11:03 AM - Re: W10 Wing (Ruhnke, Mike) 11. 11:07 AM - Almost forgot... (Fred Weaver) 12. 11:54 AM - Re: W10 Wing (Ruhnke, Mike) 13. 12:04 PM - Re: W10 Wing (Louis Owen) 14. 12:36 PM - Geezuz (Fred Weaver) 15. 02:27 PM - Panel Pic (Fred Weaver) 16. 02:28 PM - Comin home from work (Fred Weaver) 17. 02:29 PM - Slow Cruizin (Fred Weaver) 18. 02:40 PM - Re: W10 Wing (Tom Cummings) 19. 02:51 PM - Re: W10 Wing (Jim and Donna Clement) 20. 03:00 PM - Re: Panel Pic (Jim and Donna Clement) 21. 03:18 PM - Re: Panel Pic (Fred Weaver) 22. 03:24 PM - Re: Panel Pic (Jim and Donna Clement) 23. 03:35 PM - Re: W10 Wing (James E. Wagner Jr.) 24. 03:37 PM - Re:Panel Pic again (Fred Weaver) 25. 04:06 PM - Re: W10 Wing (Dan) 26. 04:12 PM - Re: W10 Wing (Richard) 27. 04:32 PM - Re: Slow Cruizin (flamini2) 28. 05:09 PM - Re: [TailwindForum] Plainwell Gathering 61D (Eric Schlanser) 29. 05:35 PM - Re: W10 Wing (Bob Triplett) 30. 05:59 PM - Re: W10 Wing (Earl Luce) 31. 06:43 PM - Re: W10 Wing (Estelle Danner) 32. 06:48 PM - B52 (Dennis Flamini) 33. 08:06 PM - Re: Slow Cruizin (mytyweav@earthlink.net) 34. 08:19 PM - Re: W10 Wing (Dave Conrad) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:10:18 AM PST US From: "Bob Conner" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: engine mount --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bob Conner" I want to thank everyone for all the advice. It is greatly appreciated. I went out last night and got all the wires and cables ready to pull out of the tank. Tonight I'll pull the panel and pull everything out of the tank take it out. I'm going to try to get everything disassembled this week so I can really inspect everything. Then the fun of putting it all back together begins. Seems like everything comes apart reall easy, but putting it back together takes all the time. Thanks again for all the response and advice.....................Bob 149 do not archive From: Richard Lamb n6228l@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: engine mount -- Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb n6228l@earthlink.net ----- Original Message ----- Bob, I did the same as Dave shows on one of my TWs but if I remember right the tubes come real close to the oil pan. Might be best to hang the engine on to fit the tubes. On the cracked tube, weld it up and put a gusset down the side extending about 1" past the crack.Jim C -----------(eom)------------ Another approach is to find a next-size-larger tube, split it lengthwise and use that to patch a break. But do check 43-13. There are some gotchas that can cause problems later. Like squared off ends on the reinforcing tube? That creates a stress rizer at the end of the patch. On my bud's biplane... The vertical tubes at the firewall still had the little circles (of the broken off longeron) so we carefully took those off with a die grinder leaving the bottom of the tube perfectly shaped (and still closed off). The bottom longerons were sliced off a few inches ahead of the main gear cluster leaving a nice stub. A new bottom forward longeron (next larger) tube was slipped over that and nextled neatly to the bottom of the firewall tubes. The diagionals on the sides and bottom were spliced the same way. It's all welded up now and he's patching up the cover. Ought to be back in the air again this year? Richard ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:20 AM PST US Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing From: "Ruhnke, Mike" Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection. My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were to be installed at the root of the main spar. In an amateur built aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable. As I understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight lessons to did them. Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the plywood doublers. It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain. When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable to break the sample in my simple loading device. I will prepare better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers to the forces required to fracture the samples. But for now bottom line. Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure the plywood is in there cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a look. HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A RIDE FROM ME. The mistake I mention would be a mistake only recognized by an experienced builder. Once you close a Tailwind wing it makes it very difficult to inspect. Mike Ruhnke Mechanical Engineer, BSME University of Illinois From the accident report on N654 1999. TESTS AND RESEARCH The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin, for examination. According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly into two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not all drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole was drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not evenly spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached to this report. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:32 AM PST US From: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, Steve's plans did have the plywood plates shown on the plans. Aircraft Spruce is responsible for the plywood omission, They had someone in Canada redraw the plans and that is the way they came back. I agree it is inexcusable that they send out something like that without adding at least a revision drawing attached. Spruce has no idea what a Tailwind is, only $. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:32 AM Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection. My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were to be installed at the root of the main spar. In an amateur built aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable. As I understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight lessons to did them. Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the plywood doublers. It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain. When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable to break the sample in my simple loading device. I will prepare better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers to the forces required to fracture the samples. But for now bottom line. Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure the plywood is in there cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a look. HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A RIDE FROM ME. The mistake I mention would be a mistake only recognized by an experienced builder. Once you close a Tailwind wing it makes it very difficult to inspect. Mike Ruhnke Mechanical Engineer, BSME University of Illinois From the accident report on N654 1999. TESTS AND RESEARCH The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin, for examination. According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly into two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not all drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole was drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not evenly spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached to this report. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:53 AM PST US From: dmagaw@att.net Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: engine mount Bob: I hope that you are an inspiration to some of the owners of those old W-8s that are sitting in the back of hangars, to get them out, dust them off, inspect and refurbish as needed, and go flying again. Dave Bob: I hope that you are an inspiration to some of the owners of those old W-8s that are sitting in the back of hangars, to get them out, dust them off, inspect and refurbish as needed, and go flying again. Dave ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:01 AM PST US From: "Louis Owen" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Someone better see to it that Acft. Spruce gets this information. Lou Former 6PJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 8:15 AM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, Steve's plans did have the plywood plates shown on the plans. Aircraft Spruce is responsible for the plywood omission, They had someone in Canada redraw the plans and that is the way they came back. I agree it is inexcusable that they send out something like that without adding at least a revision drawing attached. Spruce has no idea what a Tailwind is, only $. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:32 AM Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection. My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were to be installed at the root of the main spar. In an amateur built aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable. As I understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight lessons to did them. Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the plywood doublers. It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain. When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable to break the sample in my simple loading device. I will prepare better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers to the forces required to fracture the samples. But for now bottom line. Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure the plywood is in there cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a look. HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A RIDE FROM ME. The mistake I mention would be a mistake only recognized by an experienced builder. Once you close a Tailwind wing it makes it very difficult to inspect. Mike Ruhnke Mechanical Engineer, BSME University of Illinois From the accident report on N654 1999. TESTS AND RESEARCH The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin, for examination. According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly into two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not all drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole was drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not evenly spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached to this report. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:02 AM PST US Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing From: "Ruhnke, Mike" My plans set came from Steve in Wisconsin. I purchased them in August of 1994. I will scan what my plans show and highlight the confusion. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim and Donna Clement Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, Steve's plans did have the plywood plates shown on the plans. Aircraft Spruce is responsible for the plywood omission, They had someone in Canada redraw the plans and that is the way they came back. I agree it is inexcusable that they send out something like that without adding at least a revision drawing attached. Spruce has no idea what a Tailwind is, only $. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection. My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were to be installed at the root of the main spar. In an amateur built aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable. As I understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight lessons to did them. Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the plywood doublers. It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain. When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable to break the sample in my simple loading device. I will prepare better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers to the forces required to fracture the samples. But for now bottom line. Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure the plywood is in there cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a look. HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A RIDE FROM ME. The mistake I mention would be a mistake only recognized by an experienced builder. Once you close a Tailwind wing it makes it very difficult to inspect. Mike Ruhnke Mechanical Engineer, BSME University of Illinois From the accident report on N654 1999. TESTS AND RESEARCH The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin, for examination. According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly into two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not all drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole was drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not evenly spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached to this report. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:49 AM PST US From: "Fred Weaver" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Has anyone notified Jim Irwin at Spruce? Mike: I recommend you put a nice package together and notify Irwin. Looks like you have done the research and Jim C has seen the difference in the drawings.....so, it seems you might be the right guy for the job. If you need his direct email address, let me know. I have it somewhere. Weav ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:15 AM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, Steve's plans did have the plywood plates shown on the plans. Aircraft Spruce is responsible for the plywood omission, They had someone in Canada redraw the plans and that is the way they came back. I agree it is inexcusable that they send out something like that without adding at least a revision drawing attached. Spruce has no idea what a Tailwind is, only $. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:32 AM Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection. My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were to be installed at the root of the main spar. In an amateur built aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable. As I understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight lessons to did them. Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the plywood doublers. It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain. When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable to break the sample in my simple loading device. I will prepare better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers to the forces required to fracture the samples. But for now bottom line. Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure the plywood is in there cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a look. HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A RIDE FROM ME. The mistake I mention would be a mistake only recognized by an experienced builder. Once you close a Tailwind wing it makes it very difficult to inspect. Mike Ruhnke Mechanical Engineer, BSME University of Illinois From the accident report on N654 1999. TESTS AND RESEARCH The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin, for examination. According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly into two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not all drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole was drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not evenly spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached to this report. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:02 AM PST US Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing From: "Ruhnke, Mike" Weav. You send me the dope, I'll follow it through. I have never seen AirCraft Spruce's plan set but if Jim C say's it ain't there it ain't there. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred Weaver Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Has anyone notified Jim Irwin at Spruce? Mike: I recommend you put a nice package together and notify Irwin. Looks like you have done the research and Jim C has seen the difference in the drawings.....so, it seems you might be the right guy for the job. If you need his direct email address, let me know. I have it somewhere. Weav ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, Steve's plans did have the plywood plates shown on the plans. Aircraft Spruce is responsible for the plywood omission, They had someone in Canada redraw the plans and that is the way they came back. I agree it is inexcusable that they send out something like that without adding at least a revision drawing attached. Spruce has no idea what a Tailwind is, only $. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection. My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were to be installed at the root of the main spar. In an amateur built aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable. As I understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight lessons to did them. Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the plywood doublers. It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain. When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable to break the sample in my simple loading device. I will prepare better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers to the forces required to fracture the samples. But for now bottom line. Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure the plywood is in there cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a look. HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A RIDE FROM ME. The mistake I mention would be a mistake only recognized by an experienced builder. Once you close a Tailwind wing it makes it very difficult to inspect. Mike Ruhnke Mechanical Engineer, BSME University of Illinois From the accident report on N654 1999. TESTS AND RESEARCH The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin, for examination. According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly into two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not all drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole was drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not evenly spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached to this report. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:22:40 AM PST US From: "Fred Weaver" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing I have no dope... Unless you were talking about Irwin's email address.... ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:35 AM Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Weav. You send me the dope, I'll follow it through. I have never seen AirCraft Spruce's plan set but if Jim C say's it ain't there it ain't there. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred Weaver Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:07 AM To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Has anyone notified Jim Irwin at Spruce? Mike: I recommend you put a nice package together and notify Irwin. Looks like you have done the research and Jim C has seen the difference in the drawings.....so, it seems you might be the right guy for the job. If you need his direct email address, let me know. I have it somewhere. Weav ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:15 AM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, Steve's plans did have the plywood plates shown on the plans. Aircraft Spruce is responsible for the plywood omission, They had someone in Canada redraw the plans and that is the way they came back. I agree it is inexcusable that they send out something like that without adding at least a revision drawing attached. Spruce has no idea what a Tailwind is, only $. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:32 AM Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection. My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were to be installed at the root of the main spar. In an amateur built aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable. As I understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight lessons to did them. Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the plywood doublers. It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain. When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable to break the sample in my simple loading device. I will prepare better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers to the forces required to fracture the samples. But for now bottom line. Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure the plywood is in there cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a look. HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A RIDE FROM ME. The mistake I mention would be a mistake only recognized by an experienced builder. Once you close a Tailwind wing it makes it very difficult to inspect. Mike Ruhnke Mechanical Engineer, BSME University of Illinois From the accident report on N654 1999. TESTS AND RESEARCH The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin, for examination. According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly into two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not all drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole was drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not evenly spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached to this report. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:03:37 AM PST US Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing From: "Ruhnke, Mike" Smart a**. do not archive :) -----Original Message----- From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred Weaver Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing I have no dope... Unless you were talking about Irwin's email address.... ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Weav. You send me the dope, I'll follow it through. I have never seen AirCraft Spruce's plan set but if Jim C say's it ain't there it ain't there. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred Weaver Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Has anyone notified Jim Irwin at Spruce? Mike: I recommend you put a nice package together and notify Irwin. Looks like you have done the research and Jim C has seen the difference in the drawings.....so, it seems you might be the right guy for the job. If you need his direct email address, let me know. I have it somewhere. Weav ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, Steve's plans did have the plywood plates shown on the plans. Aircraft Spruce is responsible for the plywood omission, They had someone in Canada redraw the plans and that is the way they came back. I agree it is inexcusable that they send out something like that without adding at least a revision drawing attached. Spruce has no idea what a Tailwind is, only $. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection. My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were to be installed at the root of the main spar. In an amateur built aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable. As I understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight lessons to did them. Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the plywood doublers. It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain. When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable to break the sample in my simple loading device. I will prepare better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers to the forces required to fracture the samples. But for now bottom line. Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure the plywood is in there cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a look. HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A RIDE FROM ME. The mistake I mention would be a mistake only recognized by an experienced builder. Once you close a Tailwind wing it makes it very difficult to inspect. Mike Ruhnke Mechanical Engineer, BSME University of Illinois From the accident report on N654 1999. TESTS AND RESEARCH The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin, for examination. According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly into two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not all drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole was drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not evenly spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached to this report. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:00 AM PST US From: "Fred Weaver" Subject: Tailwind-List: Almost forgot... Forgot to Thank Luc for resizing and changing the resolution for the previous posted Pictures. I sent him the pics and each one was over 200K in file size. I asked him to revise them so they would load quickly for the guys on the list. I had to get to work....and my computer doesn't have any editing software at all yet. He used "FotoAlbum" to make the changes.. only took a couple of minutes. Thank you Luc for revising the files..... Weav DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:09 AM PST US Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing From: "Ruhnke, Mike" Ok. Me not being a Smart A**. Mr. Weaver could you please e-mail me Irwin's e-mail address. Mike do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred Weaver Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing I have no dope... Unless you were talking about Irwin's email address.... ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:23 PM PST US From: "Louis Owen" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing I have ACFT spruce edition dated 1999 and it shows 1/16 ply both sides of main spar at the root. It also shows 3/16 both sides at lift strut fitting on main spar. Could have been changed on later drawings. Lou Former N6PJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:35 AM Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Weav. You send me the dope, I'll follow it through. I have never seen AirCraft Spruce's plan set but if Jim C say's it ain't there it ain't there. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred Weaver Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:07 AM To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Has anyone notified Jim Irwin at Spruce? Mike: I recommend you put a nice package together and notify Irwin. Looks like you have done the research and Jim C has seen the difference in the drawings.....so, it seems you might be the right guy for the job. If you need his direct email address, let me know. I have it somewhere. Weav ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:15 AM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, Steve's plans did have the plywood plates shown on the plans. Aircraft Spruce is responsible for the plywood omission, They had someone in Canada redraw the plans and that is the way they came back. I agree it is inexcusable that they send out something like that without adding at least a revision drawing attached. Spruce has no idea what a Tailwind is, only $. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:32 AM Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection. My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were to be installed at the root of the main spar. In an amateur built aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable. As I understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight lessons to did them. Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the plywood doublers. It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain. When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable to break the sample in my simple loading device. I will prepare better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers to the forces required to fracture the samples. But for now bottom line. Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure the plywood is in there cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a look. HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A RIDE FROM ME. The mistake I mention would be a mistake only recognized by an experienced builder. Once you close a Tailwind wing it makes it very difficult to inspect. Mike Ruhnke Mechanical Engineer, BSME University of Illinois From the accident report on N654 1999. TESTS AND RESEARCH The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin, for examination. According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly into two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not all drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole was drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not evenly spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached to this report. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:46 PM PST US From: "Fred Weaver" Subject: Tailwind-List: Geezuz Ok..... The site must be experiencing some freakin problems.... I posted some pics about an hour and half ago and the only crap I get here is some email from "Speak Easy" that says my mail failed.... I will try again later............ Sorry to waste your time. Weav ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:27:38 PM PST US From: "Fred Weaver" Subject: Tailwind-List: Panel Pic This is a picture that I took yesterday while going to work in San Jose. Typical settings for the trip EXCEPT, I took the wheelpants off to see what it looked like. So the settings are 20" of Manifold Pressure, 2325 RPM, Indicated airspeed of 165 @ 7500 ft, OAT was 70 degrees F and NO wheelpants. Things to ignore... Vertical Speed always reads 100 fpm down when I'm flying level, the True Airspeed ring is NOT set to the current altitude and temp, the ball always rides just a little to the right of center when flying straight, Oil pressure reads about 15 psi low all the time. Have at it.... Weav ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:28:13 PM PST US From: "Fred Weaver" Subject: Tailwind-List: Comin home from work This one is called "Coming home from Work"... It shows current altitude I was at while climbing, indicated speed and Rate of Climb. Sorry I missed the tach but it's probably at 2450 to 2500 rpm. It was a hot day yesterday and I was trying to get to cooler air and soon. Weav ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:33 PM PST US From: "Fred Weaver" Subject: Tailwind-List: Slow Cruizin This pic shows all the pertinent stuff while I was coming home yesterday. Remember, Hot day, No Wheelpants and this pic shows all the lower settings. The only reason the ball is centered is I must be in a slight left hand turn and not paying any attention. Cruise altitude is 6500' @ 155 indicated, 2200 rpm @ 19"(sorry you can't see the manifold pressure). And the temp had to be at least 70 degrees F. Looks like my trip to Colorado will be without the pants as I don't have time to put them back on before leaving in the morning. Maybe we will get some more good "Empirical" data for the group. Weav ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:11 PM PST US From: "Tom Cummings" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing I have a set of A.S.&S.'s W-8 and W-10 plans and a set of Wittman's W-8 plans (serial # 500) . All have the 1/16 inch doublers shown. My A.S.& S. plans are dated 1999.(both the W-8 and W-10) They have no serial numbers because at the time of the purchase, if someone already had a set of Wittman's original plans, the new updated plans were sold at a considerably less price. It was some kind of introductory credit offer. Apparently, since the 1999 Edition, the doublers have been omitted. Tom (15 ribs finished) ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:35 AM Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Weav. You send me the dope, I'll follow it through. I have never seen AirCraft Spruce's plan set but if Jim C say's it ain't there it ain't there. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred Weaver Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:07 AM To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Has anyone notified Jim Irwin at Spruce? Mike: I recommend you put a nice package together and notify Irwin. Looks like you have done the research and Jim C has seen the difference in the drawings.....so, it seems you might be the right guy for the job. If you need his direct email address, let me know. I have it somewhere. Weav ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:15 AM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, Steve's plans did have the plywood plates shown on the plans. Aircraft Spruce is responsible for the plywood omission, They had someone in Canada redraw the plans and that is the way they came back. I agree it is inexcusable that they send out something like that without adding at least a revision drawing attached. Spruce has no idea what a Tailwind is, only $. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:32 AM Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection. My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were to be installed at the root of the main spar. In an amateur built aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable. As I understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight lessons to did them. Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the plywood doublers. It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain. When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable to break the sample in my simple loading device. I will prepare better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers to the forces required to fracture the samples. But for now bottom line. Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure the plywood is in there cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a look. HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A RIDE FROM ME. The mistake I mention would be a mistake only recognized by an experienced builder. Once you close a Tailwind wing it makes it very difficult to inspect. Mike Ruhnke Mechanical Engineer, BSME University of Illinois From the accident report on N654 1999. TESTS AND RESEARCH The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin, for examination. According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly into two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not all drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole was drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not evenly spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached to this report. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:51 PM PST US From: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, I think I know what has happened. Shortly before Steve was killed he ran out of the original plans and had new ones drawn up and printed. The new plans were different in that they were meant to eliminate the W8 drawings that were included previously. A close friend had the new plans in his possession at that time, he was going to make some changes because some things were missing. These plans were then turned over to Spruce along with the Tailwind rights. Later Spruce had someone in Canada draw up the current plans. I also do not have a Spruce set so maybe the plywood is shown on the new ones. I would guess you got a new set from Steve before he knew there were errors in them. It would be a good Idea to find out how many sets Spruce sent out that were turned over with the TW rights. I'm sure there were some because there was a lot of confusion when Spruce first sent them out. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 1:53 PM Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Ok. Me not being a Smart A**. Mr. Weaver could you please e-mail me Irwin's e-mail address. Mike do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred Weaver Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 10:22 AM To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing I have no dope... Unless you were talking about Irwin's email address.... ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:09 PM PST US From: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel Pic Fred, Next give us a report with the wheelpants. Also, turn the little screw in the vsi to set the needle on 0. It's in the cutout where the 4th mounting screw would be. Then adjust your T wheel like Earl said, it works. That may center up the ball, by the way, the warranty has run out. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Weaver To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 4:26 PM Subject: Tailwind-List: Panel Pic This is a picture that I took yesterday while going to work in San Jose. Typical settings for the trip EXCEPT, I took the wheelpants off to see what it looked like. So the settings are 20" of Manifold Pressure, 2325 RPM, Indicated airspeed of 165 @ 7500 ft, OAT was 70 degrees F and NO wheelpants. Things to ignore... Vertical Speed always reads 100 fpm down when I'm flying level, the True Airspeed ring is NOT set to the current altitude and temp, the ball always rides just a little to the right of center when flying straight, Oil pressure reads about 15 psi low all the time. Have at it.... Weav ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:29 PM PST US From: "Fred Weaver" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel Pic Hahahahahaha...... You can still have this Turn Coordinator back. You might want to use it in the new plane instead of one that works. hahahahahaha.... Weav ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 2:59 PM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel Pic Fred, Next give us a report with the wheelpants. Also, turn the little screw in the vsi to set the needle on 0. It's in the cutout where the 4th mounting screw would be. Then adjust your T wheel like Earl said, it works. That may center up the ball, by the way, the warranty has run out. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Weaver To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 4:26 PM Subject: Tailwind-List: Panel Pic This is a picture that I took yesterday while going to work in San Jose. Typical settings for the trip EXCEPT, I took the wheelpants off to see what it looked like. So the settings are 20" of Manifold Pressure, 2325 RPM, Indicated airspeed of 165 @ 7500 ft, OAT was 70 degrees F and NO wheelpants. Things to ignore... Vertical Speed always reads 100 fpm down when I'm flying level, the True Airspeed ring is NOT set to the current altitude and temp, the ball always rides just a little to the right of center when flying straight, Oil pressure reads about 15 psi low all the time. Have at it.... Weav ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:24:36 PM PST US From: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel Pic Bang on the side of it, sometimes it fires up. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Weaver To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 5:18 PM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel Pic Hahahahahaha...... You can still have this Turn Coordinator back. You might want to use it in the new plane instead of one that works. hahahahahaha.... Weav ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 2:59 PM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel Pic Fred, Next give us a report with the wheelpants. Also, turn the little screw in the vsi to set the needle on 0. It's in the cutout where the 4th mounting screw would be. Then adjust your T wheel like Earl said, it works. That may center up the ball, by the way, the warranty has run out. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Weaver To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 4:26 PM Subject: Tailwind-List: Panel Pic This is a picture that I took yesterday while going to work in San Jose. Typical settings for the trip EXCEPT, I took the wheelpants off to see what it looked like. So the settings are 20" of Manifold Pressure, 2325 RPM, Indicated airspeed of 165 @ 7500 ft, OAT was 70 degrees F and NO wheelpants. Things to ignore... Vertical Speed always reads 100 fpm down when I'm flying level, the True Airspeed ring is NOT set to the current altitude and temp, the ball always rides just a little to the right of center when flying straight, Oil pressure reads about 15 psi low all the time. Have at it.... Weav ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:25 PM PST US From: "James E. Wagner Jr." Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing I have the last set Steve sold SN1203. They show plywood at strut attachment fitting but not at wing root. Wags ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 4:51 PM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, I think I know what has happened. Shortly before Steve was killed he ran out of the original plans and had new ones drawn up and printed. The new plans were different in that they were meant to eliminate the W8 drawings that were included previously. A close friend had the new plans in his possession at that time, he was going to make some changes because some things were missing. These plans were then turned over to Spruce along with the Tailwind rights. Later Spruce had someone in Canada draw up the current plans. I also do not have a Spruce set so maybe the plywood is shown on the new ones. I would guess you got a new set from Steve before he knew there were errors in them. It would be a good Idea to find out how many sets Spruce sent out that were turned over with the TW rights. I'm sure there were some because there was a lot of confusion when Spruce first sent them out. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 1:53 PM Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Ok. Me not being a Smart A**. Mr. Weaver could you please e-mail me Irwin's e-mail address. Mike do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred Weaver Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 10:22 AM To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing I have no dope... Unless you were talking about Irwin's email address.... ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:37:07 PM PST US From: "Fred Weaver" Subject: Tailwind-List: Re:Panel Pic again I answered this one too fast initially... The ball flies off center when the plane is flying perfectly straight. It usually is about 1/2 a ball to the right when coordinated. I may try the tailwheel trim thing but it flies so good just the way it is with the little tab. Yesterday, while flying it at the low setting, I was able to fly it with my feet flat on the floor, just leaning to the left or right a tad to keep it on course. That lasted at least 10 minutes. Since I didn't go to San Jose today, I'm on my way to the airport to put the pants back on. We leave at 6 am for Colorado Springs. Hope to be there for lunch. Yeeeeehaaaaaaaaa, Weav PS. Closing in on 200 hours SMOH... in 14 months. Plus 125 hours on the Rocket since test flight Feb 19,2003. God, I like my job..... ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 2:59 PM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel Pic Fred, Next give us a report with the wheelpants. Also, turn the little screw in the vsi to set the needle on 0. It's in the cutout where the 4th mounting screw would be. Then adjust your T wheel like Earl said, it works. That may center up the ball, by the way, the warranty has run out. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Weaver To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 4:26 PM Subject: Tailwind-List: Panel Pic This is a picture that I took yesterday while going to work in San Jose. Typical settings for the trip EXCEPT, I took the wheelpants off to see what it looked like. So the settings are 20" of Manifold Pressure, 2325 RPM, Indicated airspeed of 165 @ 7500 ft, OAT was 70 degrees F and NO wheelpants. Things to ignore... Vertical Speed always reads 100 fpm down when I'm flying level, the True Airspeed ring is NOT set to the current altitude and temp, the ball always rides just a little to the right of center when flying straight, Oil pressure reads about 15 psi low all the time. Have at it.... Weav ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:41 PM PST US From: "Dan" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing I have plans set SN1272 from Spruce. Shows 3/16 Birch both sides at the strut fitting and 1/16 Birch both sides at the root -Danny On 9/8/2004 5:32:52 PM, tailwind-list@matronics.com wrote: > I have the last set Steve sold SN1203. They show plywood at strut > attachment fitting but not at wing root. >Wags ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:12:48 PM PST US From: "Richard" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Wait a few hours. Jim Irwin will probably contact a few of you guys. Then again, maybe he won't want to touch it for liability reasons. Everytime I've mentioned a bad experience with them he has jumped right on it. He must have someone monitor all these lists for him. (which is a great idea) Not that he tries to make it better, just seems to want you to know he "heard that" so you'll think twice before saying bad stuff again. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:56 PM PST US From: "flamini2" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Slow Cruizin Fred, I luv the panel shots!! Maybe the T&B is centered because it is off. Better check to see if it is hooked up. Dennis Flamini N564DF race #53 Chicago Message ----- From: Fred Weaver To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 4:28 PM Subject: Tailwind-List: Slow Cruizin This pic shows all the pertinent stuff while I was coming home yesterday. Remember, Hot day, No Wheelpants and this pic shows all the lower settings. The only reason the ball is centered is I must be in a slight left hand turn and not paying any attention. Cruise altitude is 6500' @ 155 indicated, 2200 rpm @ 19"(sorry you can't see the manifold pressure). And the temp had to be at least 70 degrees F. Looks like my trip to Colorado will be without the pants as I don't have time to put them back on before leaving in the morning. Maybe we will get some more good "Empirical" data for the group. Weav ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:34 PM PST US From: Eric Schlanser Subject: Tailwind-List: Re: [TailwindForum] Plainwell Gathering 61D Good plan. Looks like Saturday is the day in Plainwell. Hopefully your place some time. Eric Schlanser - in Kalamazoo, MI. Do not archive IslPilot@aol.com wrote: Will try and come down for Saturday. In the ultimate speed machine! Sadly not the Tailwind. Possibly Jerry can come up with an engine mount so that I can compete against the rotary challengers! Paul Baron Charlevoix, MI The Tailwind Forum group site is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TailwindForum --------------------------------- To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TailwindForum/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: TailwindForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg name=FrtLeft21.jpg --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:47 PM PST US From: Bob Triplett Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing I have plans set 998 which shows the dual dimensions for both the W8 and the W10. this plans set shows the 1/16 at the root and 3/16 at the strut also. Bob in Wis. Dan wrote: > I have plans set SN1272 from Spruce. Shows 3/16 Birch both sides at > the strut fitting and 1/16 Birch both sides at the root > > -Danny > > On 9/8/2004 5:32:52 PM, tailwind-list@matronics.com wrote: >> I have the last set Steve sold SN1203. They show plywood at strut >> attachment fitting but not at wing root. > >>Wags > > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:36 PM PST US From: "Earl Luce" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing I'm sure that Jim Irwin would like to know . The lady in charge of the Wittman plans is Jennifer Silvey jennifersilvey@aircraftspruce.com She is a great gal and will take care of it . Earl Luce ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Owen To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:37 AM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Someone better see to it that Acft. Spruce gets this information. Lou Former 6PJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 8:15 AM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, Steve's plans did have the plywood plates shown on the plans. Aircraft Spruce is responsible for the plywood omission, They had someone in Canada redraw the plans and that is the way they came back. I agree it is inexcusable that they send out something like that without adding at least a revision drawing attached. Spruce has no idea what a Tailwind is, only $. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:32 AM Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection. My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were to be installed at the root of the main spar. In an amateur built aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable. As I understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight lessons to did them. Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the plywood doublers. It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain. When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable to break the sample in my simple loading device. I will prepare better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers to the forces required to fracture the samples. But for now bottom line. Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure the plywood is in there cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a look. HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A RIDE FROM ME. The mistake I mention would be a mistake only recognized by an experienced builder. Once you close a Tailwind wing it makes it very difficult to inspect. Mike Ruhnke Mechanical Engineer, BSME University of Illinois From the accident report on N654 1999. TESTS AND RESEARCH The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin, for examination. According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly into two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not all drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole was drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not evenly spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached to this report. --- Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 8/24/2004 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:43:27 PM PST US From: "Estelle Danner" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Hi Earl Hey did your door pulleys break does that guy form new zeland have a zeinith 701 in your hanger Bob Danner ----- Original Message ----- From: Earl Luce To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 8:01 PM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing I'm sure that Jim Irwin would like to know . The lady in charge of the Wittman plans is Jennifer Silvey jennifersilvey@aircraftspruce.com She is a great gal and will take care of it . Earl Luce ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Owen To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:37 AM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Someone better see to it that Acft. Spruce gets this information. Lou Former 6PJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 8:15 AM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, Steve's plans did have the plywood plates shown on the plans. Aircraft Spruce is responsible for the plywood omission, They had someone in Canada redraw the plans and that is the way they came back. I agree it is inexcusable that they send out something like that without adding at least a revision drawing attached. Spruce has no idea what a Tailwind is, only $. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:32 AM Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection. My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were to be installed at the root of the main spar. In an amateur built aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable. As I understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight lessons to did them. Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the plywood doublers. It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain. When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable to break the sample in my simple loading device. I will prepare better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers to the forces required to fracture the samples. But for now bottom line. Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure the plywood is in there cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a look. HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A RIDE FROM ME. The mistake I mention would be a mistake only recognized by an experienced builder. Once you close a Tailwind wing it makes it very difficult to inspect. Mike Ruhnke Mechanical Engineer, BSME University of Illinois From the accident report on N654 1999. TESTS AND RESEARCH The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin, for examination. According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly into two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not all drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole was drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not evenly spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached to this report. --- Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 8/24/2004 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:31 PM PST US From: "Dennis Flamini" Subject: Tailwind-List: B52 Check this out for an eight turbine $50.000 model. http://www.stukastudios.se/b52.htm Sorry to say it crashed and was totaled. Dennis Flamini N564DF race #53 Chicago ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:28 PM PST US From: "mytyweav@earthlink.net" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Slow Cruizin --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "mytyweav@earthlink.net" Dennis... The shots are for you. I hope to keep taking them at various altitudes and settings. I guess I can type all I want but "seein' is believin'.." The tough part is taking pictures while you are holding a course and altitude. I want to be sure to hold the VSI steady so we all get the facts. Trouble is.... My plane balances so fine that moving a hand/arm back or a head forward can make such subtle changes in attitude. I'm trying to get the wheelpants back on tonight for the trip to Colorado. I want to provide some details of the trip out and back. God, I hope there is a difference..... hahahhahahhaha.... RJ, I hope you're staying with us on this stuff. Weav Original Message: ----------------- From: flamini2 flamini2@comcast.net Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Slow Cruizin Fred, I luv the panel shots!! Maybe the T&B is centered because it is off. Better check to see if it is hooked up. Dennis Flamini N564DF race #53 Chicago Message ----- From: Fred Weaver To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 4:28 PM Subject: Tailwind-List: Slow Cruizin This pic shows all the pertinent stuff while I was coming home yesterday. Remember, Hot day, No Wheelpants and this pic shows all the lower settings. The only reason the ball is centered is I must be in a slight left hand turn and not paying any attention. Cruise altitude is 6500' @ 155 indicated, 2200 rpm @ 19"(sorry you can't see the manifold pressure). And the temp had to be at least 70 degrees F. Looks like my trip to Colorado will be without the pants as I don't have time to put them back on before leaving in the morning. Maybe we will get some more good "Empirical" data for the group. Weav ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:30 PM PST US Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing From: Dave Conrad All this talk should be common sense! I have a hard time with guys that use the plywood sheeting for doublers also. As a technical counselor I'd red flag anything that I saw that didn't have birch aircraft plywood doublers of the proper thickness or greater on any project, Tailwind or not. But that's just me. Dave Conrad On Wednesday, September 8, 2004, at 08:01 PM, Earl Luce wrote: > I'm sure that Jim Irwin would like to know . The lady in charge of the > Wittman plans is Jennifer Silvey jennifersilvey@aircraftspruce.com=A0She > is a great gal and will take care of it . > Earl Luce > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Louis Owen > To: tailwind-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:37 AM > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing > > Someone better see to it that Acft. Spruce gets this information. > Lou Former 6PJ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim and Donna Clement > To: tailwind-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 8:15 AM > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing > > Mike, Steve's plans did have the plywood plates shown on the plans. > Aircraft Spruce is responsible for the plywood omission, They had > someone in Canada redraw the plans and that is the way they came back. > I agree it is=A0 inexcusable that they=A0=A0send out something like that > without adding at least a revision drawing attached. Spruce has no > idea what a Tailwind is, only $.=A0 Jim C > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ruhnke, Mike > To: tailwind-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:32 AM > Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing > > Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection.=A0 > > My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were > to be installed at the root of the main spar.=A0 In an amateur built > aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable.=A0 As I > understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight > lessons to did them. > > Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the > plywood doublers.=A0 It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain.=A0 > When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable > to break the sample in my simple loading device.=A0 I will prepare > better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers=A0to the > forces required to fracture the samples.=A0 But for now bottom line.=A0 > Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the > plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure=A0the plywood is=A0in there > cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a > look. > > HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY > MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY > UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE=A0LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A > RIDE FROM ME.=A0 The mistake I mention would be a mistake only > recognized by an experienced builder.=A0 Once you close a Tailwind wing > it makes it very difficult to inspect. > > Mike Ruhnke > Mechanical Engineer,=A0 BSME University of Illinois > > > =46rom the accident report on N654 1999. > > TESTS AND RESEARCH > > The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United > States > > Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, > > Wisconsin, for examination. > > According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product > > Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce > (Picea > > sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly > into > > two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the > > grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that > > were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not > all > > drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the > > second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole > was > > drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report > > stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not > evenly > > spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the > > middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." > > The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached > to > > this report. > > > --- > Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 8/24/2004 >