---------------------------------------------------------- Tailwind-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 09/09/04: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:54 AM - Re: Panel Pic (IslPilot@aol.com) 2. 03:56 AM - Re: Re:Panel Pic again (IslPilot@aol.com) 3. 04:13 AM - Re: Trip MPG (IslPilot@aol.com) 4. 05:04 AM - Re: Trip MPG (William Bernard) 5. 05:23 AM - Re: W10 Wing (Ruhnke, Mike) 6. 05:48 AM - Re: Slow Cruizin (RJ) 7. 05:49 AM - Re: W10 Wing (owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto) 8. 07:53 AM - Re: W10 Wing (Ruhnke, Mike) 9. 10:14 AM - Re: W10 Wing (mike_tailwind@att.net) 10. 10:42 AM - Re: Slow Cruizin (john) 11. 07:03 PM - Michigan gathering (john) 12. 07:03 PM - Re: Slow Cruizin (Earl Luce) 13. 07:09 PM - Re: W10 Wing (Earl Luce) 14. 07:28 PM - Re: W10 Wing (Estelle Danner) 15. 09:20 PM - Re: W10 Wing (red) 16. 09:44 PM - Re: W10 Wing (red) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:54:24 AM PST US From: IslPilot@aol.com Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel Pic Give it to him Jim! Paul Charlevoix, MI ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:56:30 AM PST US From: IslPilot@aol.com Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Re:Panel Pic again You could always put a piece of yarn on the windshield so that you could determine that there were no internal (mental) problems with what is really straight and level. Works great in sailplanes and jets. Paul Charlevoix, MI ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:13:33 AM PST US From: IslPilot@aol.com Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Trip MPG Bill: Next time you head to Manistee if you have the time give me a call. Charlevoix is pretty close. Paul Charlevoix, MI ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:14 AM PST US From: "William Bernard" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Trip MPG Paul, It won't be until at least next year. My aunt spends her summers just north of Manistee and my sister & I went up to help her celebrate her birthday. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: IslPilot@aol.com To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 6:13 AM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Trip MPG Bill: Next time you head to Manistee if you have the time give me a call. Charlevoix is pretty close. Paul Charlevoix, MI ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:50 AM PST US Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing From: "Ruhnke, Mike" I read an article by Tony B last night. Birch plywood if not sanded does not bond well. Mahogany however if not sanded will still bond. So if strength of the mahogany ply is up to the task one need not be concerned if they sanded or didn't sand. I remember doing a glue joint test on sanded and unsanded mahogany while I was building my wing ribs. Both bonds broke in the wood. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave Conrad Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing All this talk should be common sense! I have a hard time with guys that use the plywood sheeting for doublers also. As a technical counselor I'd red flag anything that I saw that didn't have birch aircraft plywood doublers of the proper thickness or greater on any project, Tailwind or not. But that's just me. Dave Conrad On Wednesday, September 8, 2004, at 08:01 PM, Earl Luce wrote: I'm sure that Jim Irwin would like to know . The lady in charge of the Wittman plans is Jennifer Silvey jennifersilvey@aircraftspruce.com She is a great gal and will take care of it . Earl Luce ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Owen Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Someone better see to it that Acft. Spruce gets this information. Lou Former 6PJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, Steve's plans did have the plywood plates shown on the plans. Aircraft Spruce is responsible for the plywood omission, They had someone in Canada redraw the plans and that is the way they came back. I agree it is inexcusable that they send out something like that without adding at least a revision drawing attached. Spruce has no idea what a Tailwind is, only $. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection. My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were to be installed at the root of the main spar. In an amateur built aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable. As I understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight lessons to did them. Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the plywood doublers. It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain. When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable to break the sample in my simple loading device. I will prepare better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers to the forces required to fracture the samples. But for now bottom line. Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure the plywood is in there cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a look. HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A RIDE FROM ME. The mistake I mention would be a mistake only recognized by an experienced builder. Once you close a Tailwind wing it makes it very difficult to inspect. Mike Ruhnke Mechanical Engineer, BSME University of Illinois From the accident report on N654 1999. TESTS AND RESEARCH The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin, for examination. According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly into two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not all drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole was drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not evenly spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached to this report. --- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:53 AM PST US From: RJ Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Slow Cruizin --> Tailwind-List message posted by: RJ Yes, I'm here Weave. RJ --- "mytyweav@earthlink.net" wrote: > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: > "mytyweav@earthlink.net" > > Dennis... The shots are for you. I hope to keep > taking them at various > altitudes and settings. I guess I can type all I > want but "seein' is > believin'.." The tough part is taking pictures while > you are holding a > course and altitude. I want to be sure to hold the > VSI steady so we all get > the facts. Trouble is.... My plane balances so fine > that moving a hand/arm > back or a head forward can make such subtle changes > in attitude. > I'm trying to get the wheelpants back on tonight for > the trip to Colorado. > I want to provide some details of the trip out and > back. > God, I hope there is a difference..... > hahahhahahhaha.... RJ, I hope > you're staying with us on this stuff. > Weav > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: flamini2 flamini2@comcast.net > Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:34:42 -0500 > To: TailwindForum@yahoogroups.com, > tailwind-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Slow Cruizin > > > Fred, > I luv the panel shots!! > Maybe the T&B is centered because it is off. > Better check to see if it is hooked up. > Dennis Flamini N564DF race #53 Chicago > Message ----- > From: Fred Weaver > To: tailwind-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 4:28 PM > Subject: Tailwind-List: Slow Cruizin > > > > This pic shows all the pertinent stuff while I was > coming home yesterday. > Remember, Hot day, No Wheelpants and this pic shows > all the lower settings. > The only reason the ball is centered is I must be in > a slight left hand > turn and not paying any attention. > Cruise altitude is 6500' @ 155 indicated, 2200 rpm > @ 19"(sorry you can't > see the manifold pressure). And the temp had to be > at least 70 degrees F. > > Looks like my trip to Colorado will be without the > pants as I don't have > time to put them back on before leaving in the > morning. Maybe we will get > some more good "Empirical" data for the group. > Weav > > > > > > > > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/chat > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Tailwind-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:50 AM PST US Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing A correction. In a past post I stated, "The doublers are of three ply construction, two mahogany layers and one birch layer. The birch layer is the thickest. Therefore I aligned the grain of the birch layer perpendicular to the grain of the main spar." I have since found a piece of the the stuff I used, it has stamped on it Aircraft Plywood; 90 degree Mahogany with Poplar center. The EAA book I purchased while I was building my wings lists Poplar to be superior to Mahogany in tensile strength. 7,300 psi to 5,400 psi.. Knowing the construction of the plywood and of the strengths (tensile of Poplar and bonding of Mahogany) of the wood types one can see why Steve specified that the outer grain of the Plywood be parallel with the grain of the spar. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ruhnke, Mike Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing I read an article by Tony B last night. Birch plywood if not sanded does not bond well. Mahogany however if not sanded will still bond. So if strength of the mahogany ply is up to the task one need not be concerned if they sanded or didn't sand. I remember doing a glue joint test on sanded and unsanded mahogany while I was building my wing ribs. Both bonds broke in the wood. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave Conrad Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing All this talk should be common sense! I have a hard time with guys that use the plywood sheeting for doublers also. As a technical counselor I'd red flag anything that I saw that didn't have birch aircraft plywood doublers of the proper thickness or greater on any project, Tailwind or not. But that's just me. Dave Conrad On Wednesday, September 8, 2004, at 08:01 PM, Earl Luce wrote: I'm sure that Jim Irwin would like to know . The lady in charge of the Wittman plans is Jennifer Silvey jennifersilvey@aircraftspruce.com She is a great gal and will take care of it . Earl Luce ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Owen Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Someone better see to it that Acft. Spruce gets this information. Lou Former 6PJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, Steve's plans did have the plywood plates shown on the plans. Aircraft Spruce is responsible for the plywood omission, They had someone in Canada redraw the plans and that is the way they came back. I agree it is inexcusable that they send out something like that without adding at least a revision drawing attached. Spruce has no idea what a Tailwind is, only $. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection. My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were to be installed at the root of the main spar. In an amateur built aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable. As I understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight lessons to did them. Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the plywood doublers. It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain. When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable to break the sample in my simple loading device. I will prepare better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers to the forces required to fracture the samples. But for now bottom line. Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure the plywood is in there cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a look. HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A RIDE FROM ME. The mistake I mention would be a mistake only recognized by an experienced builder. Once you close a Tailwind wing it makes it very difficult to inspect. Mike Ruhnke Mechanical Engineer, BSME University of Illinois From the accident report on N654 1999. TESTS AND RESEARCH The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin, for examination. According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly into two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not all drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole was drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not evenly spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached to this report. --- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:33 AM PST US Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing From: "Ruhnke, Mike" Thanks Earl. My wife scanned the portion of the plans in question and I have e-mailed them to Jennifer. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Earl Luce Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing I'm sure that Jim Irwin would like to know . The lady in charge of the Wittman plans is Jennifer Silvey jennifersilvey@aircraftspruce.com She is a great gal and will take care of it . Earl Luce ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Owen Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Someone better see to it that Acft. Spruce gets this information. Lou Former 6PJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, Steve's plans did have the plywood plates shown on the plans. Aircraft Spruce is responsible for the plywood omission, They had someone in Canada redraw the plans and that is the way they came back. I agree it is inexcusable that they send out something like that without adding at least a revision drawing attached. Spruce has no idea what a Tailwind is, only $. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection. My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were to be installed at the root of the main spar. In an amateur built aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable. As I understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight lessons to did them. Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the plywood doublers. It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain. When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable to break the sample in my simple loading device. I will prepare better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers to the forces required to fracture the samples. But for now bottom line. Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure the plywood is in there cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a look. HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A RIDE FROM ME. The mistake I mention would be a mistake only recognized by an experienced builder. Once you close a Tailwind wing it makes it very difficult to inspect. Mike Ruhnke Mechanical Engineer, BSME University of Illinois From the accident report on N654 1999. TESTS AND RESEARCH The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin, for examination. According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly into two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not all drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole was drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not evenly spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached to this report. --- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:14:18 AM PST US From: mike_tailwind@att.net Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing --> Tailwind-List message posted by: mike_tailwind@att.net Revision 1 of the Aircraft Spruce plans does show plywood doublers for both the root and the strut fittings. See page 23 of the plans. ACS did send me revision 1 to the plans, on their own, free of charge. This after purchasing the new plans for ony $20.00, because I have an original set of plans and builder number. I definitely believe I got more than my $20.00 in reproduction and mailing costs. -------------- Original message from "Ruhnke, Mike" : -------------- Thanks Earl. My wife scanned the portion of the plans in question and I have e-mailed them to Jennifer. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Earl Luce Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing I'm sure that Jim Irwin would like to know . The lady in charge of the Wittman plans is Jennifer Silvey jennifersilvey@aircraftspruce.com She is a great gal and will take care of it . Earl Luce ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Owen Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Someone better see to it that Acft. Spruce gets this information. Lou Former 6PJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, Steve's plans did have the plywood plates shown on the plans. Aircraft Spruce is responsible for the plywood omission, They had someone in Canada redraw the plans and that is the way they came back. I agree it is inexcusable that they send out something like that without adding at least a revision drawing attached. Spruce has no idea what a Tailwind is, only $. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection. My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were to be installed at the root of the main spar. In an amateur built aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable. As I understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight lessons to did them. Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the plywood doublers. It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain. When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable to break the sample in my simple loading device. I will prepare better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers to the forces required to fracture the samples. But for now bottom line. Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure the plywood is in there cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a look. HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A RIDE FROM ME. The mistake I mention would be a mistake only recognized by an experienced builder. Once you close a Tailwind wing it makes it very difficult to inspect. Mike Ruhnke Mechanical Engineer, BSME University of Illinois From the accident report on N654 1999. TESTS AND RESEARCH The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin, for examination. According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly into two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not all drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole was drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not evenly spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached to this report. --- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:19 AM PST US From: "john" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Slow Cruizin --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "john" Fred; It sounds like it is time to toss out the Kodak Brownie and get a camera with alittle faster lens and some of that new 800 film, it will almost freeze time. Hehehehehehehehe! Don't Archive. JohnD ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Slow Cruizin > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "mytyweav@earthlink.net" > > Dennis... The shots are for you. I hope to keep taking them at various > altitudes and settings. I guess I can type all I want but "seein' is > believin'.." The tough part is taking pictures while you are holding a > course and altitude. I want to be sure to hold the VSI steady so we all get > the facts. Trouble is.... My plane balances so fine that moving a hand/arm > back or a head forward can make such subtle changes in attitude. > I'm trying to get the wheelpants back on tonight for the trip to Colorado. > I want to provide some details of the trip out and back. > God, I hope there is a difference..... hahahhahahhaha.... RJ, I hope > you're staying with us on this stuff. > Weav > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: flamini2 flamini2@comcast.net > Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:34:42 -0500 > To: TailwindForum@yahoogroups.com, tailwind-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Slow Cruizin > > > Fred, > I luv the panel shots!! > Maybe the T&B is centered because it is off. > Better check to see if it is hooked up. > Dennis Flamini N564DF race #53 Chicago > Message ----- > From: Fred Weaver > To: tailwind-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 4:28 PM > Subject: Tailwind-List: Slow Cruizin > > > This pic shows all the pertinent stuff while I was coming home yesterday. > Remember, Hot day, No Wheelpants and this pic shows all the lower settings. > The only reason the ball is centered is I must be in a slight left hand > turn and not paying any attention. > Cruise altitude is 6500' @ 155 indicated, 2200 rpm @ 19"(sorry you can't > see the manifold pressure). And the temp had to be at least 70 degrees F. > > Looks like my trip to Colorado will be without the pants as I don't have > time to put them back on before leaving in the morning. Maybe we will get > some more good "Empirical" data for the group. > Weav > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:22 PM PST US From: "john" Subject: Tailwind-List: Michigan gathering --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "john" Jerry; Sure hope you can drive up to Plainwell and bring along the exhaust system. It is time to make a committment on it. I'll bring down the engine mount and you can have a look at it. Hope to get alot of ideas on the fuel systems everyone is using and finish up project and get to flying. Will try and get there by 8:00, so Richard and I can cook the Jungle. See everone sat morning. JohnD Don't Archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:47 PM PST US From: "Earl Luce" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Slow Cruizin --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Earl Luce" Weav, Have you tried to tailwheel trick yet for trim ? It must be killing you to admit I was right (hahahahahah) Earl Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Slow Cruizin > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "mytyweav@earthlink.net" > > Dennis... The shots are for you. I hope to keep taking them at various > altitudes and settings. I guess I can type all I want but "seein' is > believin'.." The tough part is taking pictures while you are holding a > course and altitude. I want to be sure to hold the VSI steady so we all get > the facts. Trouble is.... My plane balances so fine that moving a hand/arm > back or a head forward can make such subtle changes in attitude. > I'm trying to get the wheelpants back on tonight for the trip to Colorado. > I want to provide some details of the trip out and back. > God, I hope there is a difference..... hahahhahahhaha.... RJ, I hope > you're staying with us on this stuff. > Weav > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: flamini2 flamini2@comcast.net > Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:34:42 -0500 > To: TailwindForum@yahoogroups.com, tailwind-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Slow Cruizin > > > Fred, > I luv the panel shots!! > Maybe the T&B is centered because it is off. > Better check to see if it is hooked up. > Dennis Flamini N564DF race #53 Chicago > Message ----- > From: Fred Weaver > To: tailwind-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 4:28 PM > Subject: Tailwind-List: Slow Cruizin > > > This pic shows all the pertinent stuff while I was coming home yesterday. > Remember, Hot day, No Wheelpants and this pic shows all the lower settings. > The only reason the ball is centered is I must be in a slight left hand > turn and not paying any attention. > Cruise altitude is 6500' @ 155 indicated, 2200 rpm @ 19"(sorry you can't > see the manifold pressure). And the temp had to be at least 70 degrees F. > > Looks like my trip to Colorado will be without the pants as I don't have > time to put them back on before leaving in the morning. Maybe we will get > some more good "Empirical" data for the group. > Weav > > --- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:09 PM PST US From: "Earl Luce" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Bob, Small world ? I thought he was kidding when he told me he was there . The pulleys were the hangar next to mine . I found a pulley at the car parts store that works great . It is from a power steering unit off a 454 Ford . Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: Estelle Danner To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:43 PM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Hi Earl Hey did your door pulleys break does that guy form new zeland have a zeinith 701 in your hanger Bob Danner ----- Original Message ----- From: Earl Luce To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 8:01 PM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing I'm sure that Jim Irwin would like to know . The lady in charge of the Wittman plans is Jennifer Silvey jennifersilvey@aircraftspruce.com She is a great gal and will take care of it . Earl Luce ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Owen To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:37 AM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Someone better see to it that Acft. Spruce gets this information. Lou Former 6PJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 8:15 AM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, Steve's plans did have the plywood plates shown on the plans. Aircraft Spruce is responsible for the plywood omission, They had someone in Canada redraw the plans and that is the way they came back. I agree it is inexcusable that they send out something like that without adding at least a revision drawing attached. Spruce has no idea what a Tailwind is, only $. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:32 AM Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection. My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were to be installed at the root of the main spar. In an amateur built aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable. As I understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight lessons to did them. Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the plywood doublers. It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain. When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable to break the sample in my simple loading device. I will prepare better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers to the forces required to fracture the samples. But for now bottom line. Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure the plywood is in there cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a look. HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A RIDE FROM ME. The mistake I mention would be a mistake only recognized by an experienced builder. Once you close a Tailwind wing it makes it very difficult to inspect. Mike Ruhnke Mechanical Engineer, BSME University of Illinois From the accident report on N654 1999. TESTS AND RESEARCH The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin, for examination. According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly into two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not all drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole was drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not evenly spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached to this report. --- Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 8/24/2004 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:49 PM PST US From: "Estelle Danner" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Hi Earl no kidding on the small world . glad to hear it was not your door . got to have them pulleys big and sturdy . Bye Bob D. ----- Original Message ----- From: Earl Luce To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:11 PM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Bob, Small world ? I thought he was kidding when he told me he was there . The pulleys were the hangar next to mine . I found a pulley at the car parts store that works great . It is from a power steering unit off a 454 Ford . Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: Estelle Danner To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:43 PM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Hi Earl Hey did your door pulleys break does that guy form new zeland have a zeinith 701 in your hanger Bob Danner ----- Original Message ----- From: Earl Luce To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 8:01 PM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing I'm sure that Jim Irwin would like to know . The lady in charge of the Wittman plans is Jennifer Silvey jennifersilvey@aircraftspruce.com She is a great gal and will take care of it . Earl Luce ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Owen To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:37 AM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Someone better see to it that Acft. Spruce gets this information. Lou Former 6PJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 8:15 AM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, Steve's plans did have the plywood plates shown on the plans. Aircraft Spruce is responsible for the plywood omission, They had someone in Canada redraw the plans and that is the way they came back. I agree it is inexcusable that they send out something like that without adding at least a revision drawing attached. Spruce has no idea what a Tailwind is, only $. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:32 AM Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection. My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were to be installed at the root of the main spar. In an amateur built aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable. As I understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight lessons to did them. Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the plywood doublers. It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain. When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable to break the sample in my simple loading device. I will prepare better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers to the forces required to fracture the samples. But for now bottom line. Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure the plywood is in there cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a look. HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A RIDE FROM ME. The mistake I mention would be a mistake only recognized by an experienced builder. Once you close a Tailwind wing it makes it very difficult to inspect. Mike Ruhnke Mechanical Engineer, BSME University of Illinois From the accident report on N654 1999. TESTS AND RESEARCH The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin, for examination. According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly into two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not all drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole was drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not evenly spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached to this report. --- Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 8/24/2004 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:21 PM PST US From: "red" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Yes, considerably less, when I gave them the old s/n, they sent me the plans for something like a $10 handling charge. That was about mid 2001. Now I hear that they cut no slack for having old plans. Red ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Cummings To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 2:39 PM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing I have a set of A.S.&S.'s W-8 and W-10 plans and a set of Wittman's W-8 plans (serial # 500) . All have the 1/16 inch doublers shown. My A.S.& S. plans are dated 1999.(both the W-8 and W-10) They have no serial numbers because at the time of the purchase, if someone already had a set of Wittman's original plans, the new updated plans were sold at a considerably less price. It was some kind of introductory credit offer. Apparently, since the 1999 Edition, the doublers have been omitted. Tom (15 ribs finished) ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:35 AM Subject: RE: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Weav. You send me the dope, I'll follow it through. I have never seen AirCraft Spruce's plan set but if Jim C say's it ain't there it ain't there. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tailwind-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred Weaver Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:07 AM To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Has anyone notified Jim Irwin at Spruce? Mike: I recommend you put a nice package together and notify Irwin. Looks like you have done the research and Jim C has seen the difference in the drawings.....so, it seems you might be the right guy for the job. If you need his direct email address, let me know. I have it somewhere. Weav ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:15 AM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, Steve's plans did have the plywood plates shown on the plans. Aircraft Spruce is responsible for the plywood omission, They had someone in Canada redraw the plans and that is the way they came back. I agree it is inexcusable that they send out something like that without adding at least a revision drawing attached. Spruce has no idea what a Tailwind is, only $. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:32 AM Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection. My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were to be installed at the root of the main spar. In an amateur built aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable. As I understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight lessons to did them. Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the plywood doublers. It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain. When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable to break the sample in my simple loading device. I will prepare better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers to the forces required to fracture the samples. But for now bottom line. Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure the plywood is in there cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a look. HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A RIDE FROM ME. The mistake I mention would be a mistake only recognized by an experienced builder. Once you close a Tailwind wing it makes it very difficult to inspect. Mike Ruhnke Mechanical Engineer, BSME University of Illinois From the accident report on N654 1999. TESTS AND RESEARCH The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin, for examination. According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly into two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not all drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole was drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not evenly spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached to this report. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:15 PM PST US From: "red" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing 454 Ford ? Red ----- Original Message ----- From: Earl Luce To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 7:11 PM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Bob, Small world ? I thought he was kidding when he told me he was there . The pulleys were the hangar next to mine . I found a pulley at the car parts store that works great . It is from a power steering unit off a 454 Ford . Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: Estelle Danner To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:43 PM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Hi Earl Hey did your door pulleys break does that guy form new zeland have a zeinith 701 in your hanger Bob Danner ----- Original Message ----- From: Earl Luce To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 8:01 PM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing I'm sure that Jim Irwin would like to know . The lady in charge of the Wittman plans is Jennifer Silvey jennifersilvey@aircraftspruce.com She is a great gal and will take care of it . Earl Luce ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Owen To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:37 AM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Someone better see to it that Acft. Spruce gets this information. Lou Former 6PJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim and Donna Clement To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 8:15 AM Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Mike, Steve's plans did have the plywood plates shown on the plans. Aircraft Spruce is responsible for the plywood omission, They had someone in Canada redraw the plans and that is the way they came back. I agree it is inexcusable that they send out something like that without adding at least a revision drawing attached. Spruce has no idea what a Tailwind is, only $. Jim C ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruhnke, Mike To: tailwind-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:32 AM Subject: Tailwind-List: W10 Wing Revisiting the wing root fuselage connection. My plan set, #1137, did not clearly state that plywood doublers were to be installed at the root of the main spar. In an amateur built aircraft such a detail being left rule-of-thumb is inexcusable. As I understand it Steve did not draw the plans, a fellow he gave flight lessons to did them. Last night I preliminarily evaluated the spar material without the plywood doublers. It is very weak loaded perpendicular to the grain. When I added plywood to the sides of another test sample I was unable to break the sample in my simple loading device. I will prepare better samples and test them in a manner that I can put numbers to the forces required to fracture the samples. But for now bottom line. Since so many plan sets went out without clearly calling out for the plywood. I recommend that if you are not sure the plywood is in there cut an inspection hole in the bottom surface of the wing and have a look. HAD I NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THIS LIST I WOULD NEVER HAD CAUGHT MY MISTAKE AND THAT MISTAKE MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE KILLED ME AND ANY UNFORTUNATE SOUL WHO HAD PUT THERE LIFE IN MY HANDS BY ACCEPTING A RIDE FROM ME. The mistake I mention would be a mistake only recognized by an experienced builder. Once you close a Tailwind wing it makes it very difficult to inspect. Mike Ruhnke Mechanical Engineer, BSME University of Illinois From the accident report on N654 1999. TESTS AND RESEARCH The inboard 15-inches of the right wing spar was sent to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Product Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin, for examination. According to an examination report, provided by USDA Forest Product Laboratory, the accident wing spar was constructed of Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis). The failure surface of the spar was, "...spilt cleanly into two pieces by a force that was perpendicular to the direction of the grain." The report further stated, "It appears that the bolt holes that were drilled through the spars to accept the 1/4-inch bolts were not all drilled perpendicular to the spar's outer surfaces." Examination of the second hole from the inboard end, "suggests that this particular hole was drilled twice to make the bolt for this connection fit." The report stated, "...the holes that are on either side of the spar are not evenly spaced. There is also considerable difference in the diameter of the middle two holes relative to the diameter of the outer two holes." The full USDA Forest Product Laboratory examination report is attached to this report. --- Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 8/24/2004