Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:23 PM - Stabilizer Location (Rcaprd@aol.com)
2. 01:47 PM - Re: Stabilizer Location (Jim Clement)
3. 07:32 PM - Re: Stabilizer Location (Rcaprd@aol.com)
4. 07:51 PM - Re: Stabilizer Location (Jim Clement)
5. 08:32 PM - Re: Stabilizer Location (Rcaprd@aol.com)
6. 08:41 PM - Re: Stabilizer Location (Jim Clement)
7. 08:52 PM - Re: Stabilizer Location (Rcaprd@aol.com)
8. 10:02 PM - Re: Stabilizer Location (Alex Frizzell)
9. 10:27 PM - Re: Stabilizer Location (Alex Frizzell)
10. 10:37 PM - Re: Stabilizer Location (Jim Clement)
11. 11:13 PM - Re: Stabilizer Location (Rcaprd@aol.com)
12. 11:18 PM - Re: Stabilizer Location (Rcaprd@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Stabilizer Location |
I've been working on the empenage, and have a few questions:
In the AS&S plans, page 7, detail D shows the upper inboard ends of the
stabilizer is about 3/8" Above the upper longerons. I've been puzzled by this,
and
haven't been able to see it clearly on any finished planes. It doesn't make
much sense, because it would add a little bit of drag.
The 1 X .035 horizontal spar is saddled up in the V at station 163. My
eyeball engineering sees this as a weak way link, and I'm wondering if I should
add
a gusset here. At this point I have the spar just tacked in, but if I lower
the horiz stab spar and add gussets, I should be able to keep the upper
inboard ends of the stab below the longerons, and eliminate the interference between
the elevator con rod and the diagonal piece. Waddya think ???
It has been suggested to keep the inboard ends of the stab a tight fit
against the fuselage. Last evening, I braized the 3/8" ribs on the stabilizers,
and
now the leading edge of the stabs has increased in length, and leaves a gap
between the inboard ends of the stab and the fuse...now I have that to deal
with - what to do ?
Acording to the article by Jim Stanton - 'Looking for SPEED', (T.T. # 7) I've
incorporated the 'Shield' on the stab, in front of the Counterbalance on the
elevators.
Chuck G.
p.s. check out the progress on my web site, and the jack stands I
built...they work well.
http://nx770cg.com/NextProjectTailwind.html
the engine is on a separate page, and you're invited to check out the rest of
my site, too !!
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Stabilizer Location |
Leave the stab. spar in the V where you have it. The top of the inboard
3/8" rib will be slightly lower than the top of the longeron. That is
where it should be.
If the leading edge is to long at the front mounting area, cut it off
and remove whatever is necessary to make it fit and reweld it. Jim C
----- Original Message -----
From: Rcaprd@aol.com
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 2:22 PM
Subject: Tailwind-List: Stabilizer Location
I've been working on the empenage, and have a few questions:
In the AS&S plans, page 7, detail D shows the upper inboard ends of
the stabilizer is about 3/8" Above the upper longerons. I've been
puzzled by this, and haven't been able to see it clearly on any finished
planes. It doesn't make much sense, because it would add a little bit
of drag.
The 1 X .035 horizontal spar is saddled up in the V at station 163.
My eyeball engineering sees this as a weak way link, and I'm wondering
if I should add a gusset here. At this point I have the spar just
tacked in, but if I lower the horiz stab spar and add gussets, I should
be able to keep the upper inboard ends of the stab below the longerons,
and eliminate the interference between the elevator con rod and the
diagonal piece. Waddya think ???
It has been suggested to keep the inboard ends of the stab a tight fit
against the fuselage. Last evening, I braized the 3/8" ribs on the
stabilizers, and now the leading edge of the stabs has increased in
length, and leaves a gap between the inboard ends of the stab and the
fuse...now I have that to deal with - what to do ?
Acording to the article by Jim Stanton - 'Looking for SPEED', (T.T. #
7) I've incorporated the 'Shield' on the stab, in front of the
Counterbalance on the elevators.
Chuck G.
p.s. check out the progress on my web site, and the jack stands I
built...they work well.
http://nx770cg.com/NextProjectTailwind.html
the engine is on a separate page, and you're invited to check out the
rest of my site, too !!
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Stabilizer Location |
In a message dated 9/30/2006 3:48:19 PM Central Standard Time,
jclement000@centurytel.net writes:
Leave the stab. spar in the V where you have it. The top of the inboard 3/8"
rib will be slightly lower than the top of the longeron. That is where it
should be.
Jim,
I leveled the fuselage on the lower longeron between sta 0 and station 24.
When I level the stab, it looks like it does on pg 7 detail D - 3/8" above the
longeron.
Chuck G.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Stabilizer Location |
Chuck, I don't have the new spruce plans so I don't know what they show.
If what you are referring to is the 3/8" tube welded on the 1-1/4"
stabilizer spar forming the inboard rib it will be about 1/8" below the
top edge of the longeron. This is at the spar position. The front
leading edge will be about 3/4 to 1" below the top edge of the longeron.
Incidence will be about 3/4 degree down in front with lower longeron
leveled in first bay.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Rcaprd@aol.com
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 9:31 PM
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Stabilizer Location
In a message dated 9/30/2006 3:48:19 PM Central Standard Time,
jclement000@centurytel.net writes:
Leave the stab. spar in the V where you have it. The top of the
inboard 3/8" rib will be slightly lower than the top of the longeron.
That is where it should be.
Jim,
I leveled the fuselage on the lower longeron between sta 0 and station
24. When I level the stab, it looks like it does on pg 7 detail D -
3/8" above the longeron.
Chuck G.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Stabilizer Location |
In a message dated 9/30/2006 9:52:21 PM Central Standard Time,
jclement000@centurytel.net writes:
If what you are referring to is the 3/8" tube welded on the 1-1/4" stabilizer
spar forming the inboard rib it will be about 1/8" below the top edge of the
longeron. This is at the spar position. The front leading edge will be about
3/4 to 1" below the top edge of the longeron. Incidence will be about 3/4
degree down in front with lower longeron leveled in first bay.
Yes, the 3/8" tube that forms the inboard rib IS below the top longeron at
the spar location, but as the rib progresses forward of the spar, it gets a
thicker chord, and the plans shows it above the top longeron...that's the way mine
looks. My leading edge is like you said - 3/4 to 1" below the top edge of
the longeron.
As far as the gap on the inboard ends, I had the stabs on the wrong side, and
when I put them on the correct side I built them for, the gap at the inboard
side is the way I made them...very little gap. I obviously have a slight
discrepancy in the aft end of the fuselage. I have the spar exactly perpendicular
to the C/L of the fuse, so I should be all right there.
Chuck G.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Stabilizer Location |
Skinny down the rib from the spar forward so it doesn't go above the
longeron. I've seen all kinds of shapes on the stabilizer ribs on TWs
and they all work the same. Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Rcaprd@aol.com
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Stabilizer Location
In a message dated 9/30/2006 9:52:21 PM Central Standard Time,
jclement000@centurytel.net writes:
If what you are referring to is the 3/8" tube welded on the 1-1/4"
stabilizer spar forming the inboard rib it will be about 1/8" below the
top edge of the longeron. This is at the spar position. The front
leading edge will be about 3/4 to 1" below the top edge of the longeron.
Incidence will be about 3/4 degree down in front with lower longeron
leveled in first bay.
Yes, the 3/8" tube that forms the inboard rib IS below the top
longeron at the spar location, but as the rib progresses forward of the
spar, it gets a thicker chord, and the plans shows it above the top
longeron...that's the way mine looks. My leading edge is like you said
- 3/4 to 1" below the top edge of the longeron.
As far as the gap on the inboard ends, I had the stabs on the wrong
side, and when I put them on the correct side I built them for, the gap
at the inboard side is the way I made them...very little gap. I
obviously have a slight discrepancy in the aft end of the fuselage. I
have the spar exactly perpendicular to the C/L of the fuse, so I should
be all right there.
Chuck G.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Stabilizer Location |
In a message dated 9/30/2006 10:42:34 PM Central Standard Time,
jclement000@centurytel.net writes:
Skinny down the rib from the spar forward so it doesn't go above the
longeron. I've seen all kinds of shapes on the stabilizer ribs on TWs and they
all
work the same. Jim
That will take some cutting and welding, but that's what I'll do. I made the
airfoil on the stab /elevator to have the thickest part of the airfoil at 25%
of the chord. How about a little gusset under the stab spar, where the V
opens up ?
Chuck G.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Stabilizer Location |
Photo E-mail Play
slideshow<http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LmPLmC
9HXTYynUYbHsflw3346HVj60WAsNSeZgHA6pcPi*F!OR2dnISGoml*RTYq9TPrlhrAzGgw%24
%24> | Download images
<http://photos.msn.com/viewing/Photos.aspx?pi_Type=SlideshowTask&Task=
Download&stppData=&pi_ImagesOnly=1&Folder=nBuRgwTGIGizJaARxbZzfLIUm
Ix8L4*7CfCF6yAWFho%24&User=LJjObqfwa75f2zB1w0h!h*86nubA6bov&pi_NoLogin=
1>
Chuck, if you elongated the spar it should fit good into the V and you
can make a good weld 1/2 around the spar and no gusset should be needed.
As for the stab not fitting on one side and fitting on the other, they
should be "symmetrical" and fit on either side. Maybe some of these
"rough" shots will help. You can click on one pic if they come through
and see them as a slide show and enlarge. Make sure the spar is parallel
and level with the front main spar.
Alex<http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LmPLmC9HXTY
ynUYbHsflw3346HVj60WAsNSeZgHA6pcPi*F!OR2dnISGoml*RTYq9TPrlhrAzGgw%24%24>
<http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LmPLmC9HXTYynUY
bHsflw3346HVj60WAsNSeZgHA6pcPi*F!OR2dnISGoml*RTYq*yXHyanwh2RQ%24%24>
<http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LmPLmC9HXTYynUY
bHsflw3346HVj60WAsNSeZgHA6pcPi*F!OR2dnISGoml*RTYq94DZ3RsPKKww%24%24>
<http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LmPLmC9HXTYynUY
bHsflw3346HVj60WAsNSeZgHA6pcPi*F!OR2dnISGoml*RTYq89JZrq6EDcxg%24%24>
<http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LmPLmC9HXTYynUY
bHsflw3346HVj60WAsNSeZgHA6pcPi*F!OR2dnISGoml*RTYq*dPzutr!eSlA%24%24>
<http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LmPLmC9HXTYynUY
bHsflw3346HVj60WAsNSeZgHA6pcPi*F!OR2dnISGoml*RTYq8GxvbhKzlX9Q%24%24>
----- Original Message -----
From: Rcaprd@aol.com<mailto:Rcaprd@aol.com>
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com<mailto:tailwind-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Stabilizer Location
In a message dated 9/30/2006 10:42:34 PM Central Standard Time,
jclement000@centurytel.net<mailto:jclement000@centurytel.net> writes:
Skinny down the rib from the spar forward so it doesn't go above the
longeron. I've seen all kinds of shapes on the stabilizer ribs on TWs
and they all work the same. Jim
That will take some cutting and welding, but that's what I'll do. I
made the airfoil on the stab /elevator to have the thickest part of the
airfoil at 25% of the chord. How about a little gusset under the stab
spar, where the V opens up ?
Chuck G.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Tailwind-List<http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Tailwind-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
This MSN Photo E-mail slideshow will be available for 30 days.
To share high quality pictures with your friends and family using MSN
Photo E-mail, join MSN<http://g.msn.com/0PHenus1/29>.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Stabilizer Location |
Photo E-mail Play
slideshow<http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LmPLmC
9HXTYynUYbHsflw3346HVj60WAtOK6e0JXYWW0NkCWxu6vdzfZ2U1GXP3ouvAVxT8Frq1A%24
%24> | Download images
<http://photos.msn.com/viewing/Photos.aspx?pi_Type=SlideshowTask&Task=
Download&stppData=&pi_ImagesOnly=1&Folder=nBuRgwTGIGizJaARxbZzfLIUm
Ix8L4*7SI1biUDr2mg%24&User=LJjObqfwa75f2zB1w0h!h*86nubA6bov&pi_NoLogin=
1>
Chuck, on my last post with the pictures I forgot to mention that I had
to re-do the ribs because I did not "pre-bend" them before I welded them
on. here is a picture of pre-bent inner rib before welding on.
Alex<http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LmPLmC9HXTY
ynUYbHsflw3346HVj60WAtOK6e0JXYWW0NkCWxu6vdzfZ2U1GXP3ouvAVxT8Frq1A%24%24>
<http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LmPLmC9HXTYynUY
bHsflw3346HVj60WAtOK6e0JXYWW0NkCWxu6vdzfZ2U1GXP3ovlCe*BcSIdxg%24%24>
----- Original Message -----
From: Rcaprd@aol.com<mailto:Rcaprd@aol.com>
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com<mailto:tailwind-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Stabilizer Location
In a message dated 9/30/2006 10:42:34 PM Central Standard Time,
jclement000@centurytel.net<mailto:jclement000@centurytel.net> writes:
Skinny down the rib from the spar forward so it doesn't go above the
longeron. I've seen all kinds of shapes on the stabilizer ribs on TWs
and they all work the same. Jim
That will take some cutting and welding, but that's what I'll do. I
made the airfoil on the stab /elevator to have the thickest part of the
airfoil at 25% of the chord. How about a little gusset under the stab
spar, where the V opens up ?
Chuck G.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Tailwind-List<http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Tailwind-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
This MSN Photo E-mail slideshow will be available for 30 days.
To share high quality pictures with your friends and family using MSN
Photo E-mail, join MSN<http://g.msn.com/0PHenus1/29>.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Stabilizer Location |
I weld just the V area on the outside and around the angled vertical
side tubes to the back side but not completely up the backside. I think
it is better without a gusset around the spar tube as this could create
a full 360 degree stress area straight across the tube.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rcaprd@aol.com
To: tailwind-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Stabilizer Location
In a message dated 9/30/2006 10:42:34 PM Central Standard Time,
jclement000@centurytel.net writes:
Skinny down the rib from the spar forward so it doesn't go above the
longeron. I've seen all kinds of shapes on the stabilizer ribs on TWs
and they all work the same. Jim
That will take some cutting and welding, but that's what I'll do. I
made the airfoil on the stab /elevator to have the thickest part of the
airfoil at 25% of the chord. How about a little gusset under the stab
spar, where the V opens up ?
Chuck G.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Stabilizer Location |
In a message dated 10/1/2006 12:03:13 AM Central Standard Time,
CARRXW10@msn.com writes:
Chuck, if you elongated the spar it should fit good into the V and you can
make a good weld 1/2 around the spar and no gusset should be needed. As for the
stab not fitting on one side and fitting on the other, they should be
"symmetrical" and fit on either side. Maybe some of these "rough" shots will help.
You
can click on one pic if they come through and see them as a slide show and
enlarge. Make sure the spar is parallel and level with the front main spar.
Alex
Thanks for the pics, Alex.
This is the first steel tube fuselage I've built, and I've certainly
discovered how much the tubing moves and stretches when a weld is completed !!
When I jigged up station 163, I got the tubes a little farther apart than I
should have, and as a result the stab spar has about 1/8 gaps on front & rear
of the stab. I can get a good weld 1/3 of the way around, but not 1/2 way
around the stab. Hence, the reason I asked about the gusset.
I made the airfoil of the stabilizer / elevator with the thickest portion of
the airfoil at 25% chord, and that is why the upper inner portion of the
inboard rib is 3/8" above the upper longeron - forward of the stab spar location.
I'm going to follow Jim's suggestion, and cut that 3/8" tubing loose on the
forward end - leading edge, and massage it down so it isn't above the upper
longeron, and re-weld it.
The aft part of the fuselage is maybe 1/16 different on each side, and when I
mistakenly installed the stabs on the wrong sides on the stab spars, it made
the 1/8" gap at the inboard ends.
The stab spar is level with the front lower longerons, and parallel with the
lower cross tube at the firewall. I haven't got the main spar attach points
on yet, but it looks as though the location of them will come out good.
Chuck G.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Stabilizer Location |
In a message dated 10/1/2006 12:38:40 AM Central Standard Time,
jclement000@centurytel.net writes:
I think it is better without a gusset around the spar tube as this could
create a full 360 degree stress area straight across the tube.
Good point Jim, but what if the gap is too large for a good weld ?
Chuck G.
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