---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 08/23/03: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:46 PM - Re: first maintenance (Aucountry@aol.com) 2. 10:29 PM - Re: Auburn (Aucountry@aol.com) 3. 11:00 PM - Re: Auburn (Aucountry@aol.com) 4. 11:16 PM - Re: Firewall Restoration (Aucountry@aol.com) 5. 11:16 PM - Re: Firewall Restoration (Aucountry@aol.com) 6. 11:19 PM - Re: Firewall Restoration (Aucountry@aol.com) 7. 11:21 PM - Re: Powder Coat for the engine mount (Aucountry@aol.com) 8. 11:23 PM - Re: Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 08/20/03 (Aucountry@aol.com) 9. 11:30 PM - Re: That engine sure is cool!!!!!!!!! (Aucountry@aol.com) 10. 11:39 PM - Re: Re: That engine sure is cool!!!!!!!!! (ThomasTholmes512@aol.com) 11. 11:49 PM - Re: Re: That engine sure is cool!!!!!!!!! (Aucountry@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:46:45 PM PST US From: Aucountry@aol.com Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: first maintenance --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com In a message dated 08/18/03 05:31:18 PM, lwalters2@cfl.rr.com writes: > I thought about this for a long time before I decided to answer Jeff's > email, but in the end I couldn't help myself.=A0 So, here goes. Jeff Reiter wrote: > > >OK . lets up the ante. On my recent purchase(Feb 03) of my Grumman AA1 I > had a prebuy/annual combination performed by a guy named Parks(Parky) in the > vicinity of Valkaria, FL. This A&P discovered no vaccuum so had it replaced and > paid for by prior owner to the tune of 300-400 dollars. So far Im goin good, > right? > > > >It "passes" annual and on the maiden flight back to Mississippi, I try the > cabin heat...pure exhaust > >fumes. So I shortly therafter(2 weeks) have an oil change, I tell the A&P > about the fumes, and the A&P finds a three inch crack in the exhaust system > after grabbing the exhaust pipe and wiggling it about 4 inches back and > forth. > > > >The A&P explained that "Parky" and the owner TOOK me on that one to the > tune of $1050.00. > > > >The broker I used who will remain unmentioned as he is a member of this > site, said "that could have happened on the trip back"--to which I would surmise > it may also snow in MS on a 95% day....yeah, right! > > > Well, here is where I have to chime in.=A0 I'm the one who brokered the sale > for a local pilot to Jeff.=A0 This was in Feb 2003.=A0 I had flown the airplane a > number of times, and was familiar with it.=A0 Jeff was a little hesitant about > almost everything since this was his first purchase.=A0understandable.=A0=20Jeff > wanted a good airplane because he flies a lot, andmaintenance was an issue.=A0 > Understandable too.=A0 Jeff didn't like the compression (one cylinder was=2060/80) > so he asked for a $250 reduction which the seller agreed to.=A0 I got two > emails, I believe, after Jeff had the airplane for a couple of months, in=20which he > had complaints.=A0 One of those emails concerned the muffler problem, and=20was > in May.=A0 He did say (in May) that he had a problem on the way back with=20the > heat.=A0 He also said "I have not said anything to you previously about this > because of my anger--didn't want to take it out on you." which I appreciate.=A0 I > asked how many hours he'd put on the airplane, but don't know if I got an > answer.=A0 I will have to admit that when I preflight my AA-1B, I grab the > exhaust pipe to check for cracks, but I can't remember if I did when Jeff=20and I > flew his familiarization flight. > > >This mechanic had done an annual several years earlier on this plane, but > obviously was still in the owners pocket on this job. Oh--maybe he > wasn't..maybe he NEVER CHECKED the exhaust pipe, cabin heat etc. which is=20WORSE! > > A very libelous statement at the least.=A0 Parky was told to do a thorough > annual ( it was due) because this would also serve as a pre-purchase > inspection.=A0 Parky is a very experienced A&P/AI, and works with another=20A&P/AI.=A0 They > are thorough, and professional, although not specifically Grumman experts.=A0 > They do the annuals on my other airplanes.=A0 I can't vouch for what work=20they > did on Jeff's plane since I didn't look over their shoulder.=A0=A0 Jeff asked if he > had recourse, and I said I didn't think so, because of the time frame > involved. > > >The only consolation is that this airplane is such a JOY to fly....You all > know about that! > > > Finally, something=A0 good.=A0 It's not hard to like a Grumman!!! > > >Jeff Reiter > > > And I'm sorry that I had to burden y'all with this.=A0 I went overboard to > present the aircraft as accurately as I could to a potential buyer, as I will > with any other airplane that comes through my hands.=A0 At least Jeff flew home > with his 'new' airplane instead of finding one that was unacceptable, as so > often happens. > Linn > ------------------------------------- I did an annual on a Cheetah - that I owned - and I always use the ground lead onto the muffler when refueling. As many of you know, the muffler is=20part of the annaul inspection. So you have the scenario. First flight after refueling, right after the annaul, nothing unusual. Flight to North Las Vegas. Stop for gas, find cracked exhaust pipe where it connects to the muffler. =20 Tail pipe moved about 1/2 inch when I put the ground strap on. Now, when I do the muffler portion of an annual, I look for stains and cracks at all the welds and I look for the flame arrester in the muffler. When the muffler moved a bit when I hooked up the ground strap before refueling, I was very surprised. The only thing I can imagine is that if there were cracks present, they were so fine that I didn't see them or the metal had fatigued=20to the point where an additional 2 hours of flight finished the job. As for the indictment on bad maintenance: I doubt seriously that there was any failure to properly inspect the muffler during in the inspection. Odds are, the muffler just failed. Welcome to the world of aircraft ownership. Regarding the cracked exhaust risers. I have seen approximately 10-20 cracked or (crack) repaired risers on the planes I inspect. Even on NEW parts, I see cracks after as few as 30 hours. The basic design of an exhaust system rigidly attached to an engine that grows and shrinks as it heats and cools at a different rate than the exhaust system, and without some sort of slip joint or independent exhaust system for each side, is not the greatest. I'm curious about the longevity of the Power Flow with its slip joints. We'll see. Is there a solution? Possibly. When assembling the muffler to the exhaust risers, put everything together, intially, with the riser nuts finger tight (loose?). Assemble the clam shell clamps which seal (well, they're supposed to seal) the muffler to the risers, and snug them all (all four sets of two) uniformly. When they are snug, say, an 8 on a 1 to 10 scale, tighten the riser nuts and then tighten up the clam shell clamps. Is this a guarantee they won't crack? No, it's just the way I tighten them after encountering (four) cracked risers (over a period of 5 years) many years ago. I've been lucky=20so far. Gary www.AuCountry.com Home of "Team Grumman" TeamGrumman-List@matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/subscribe ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:29:16 PM PST US From: Aucountry@aol.com Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Auburn --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com In a message dated 08/18/03 07:23:04 AM, flyv35b@juno.com writes: > > Tomorrow morning I'm heading for Auburn to check out property.=A0=A0 I'll=20be > looking for housing as well as hanger property.=A0=A0 It's getting time to move > north..... > > Well, you have been thinking and talking about doing this for quite a few > years now.=A0 I think you will find that there is a fairly large customer=20base in > the bay and surrounding areas that you will be able to tap into, probably > even larger than the LA area.=A0 The Gold Country is one of the few areas=20in CA > that I would even consider living.=A0 Actually, I can't afford to live anywhere > in CA with their tax and spend structure. > > Good luck. > > Cliff > > PS=A0 Nice work on the cowling.=A0 I'm anxious to see how the data compares to > the stock cowling base line.=A0 How are you going to market it - get an STC or > what? > Thanks Cliff, I flew the Tger with the new cowling to Camarillo today for their airshow. On both the flight down and the flight back, we recorded TAS of 145 and 147 kts at 4500 and 5500 feet. It consistently runs 130kts or so indicated at these altitudes when straight and level. As for Auburn, I put a deposit on a 50x75 foot hanger lot at the Auburn airport. The lot won't be ready to build on until April. If all goes as planned, the move will take place some time in May/June. As soon as I get a spare day or so, I'll get the pics of the cowlin gon the internet. Gary www.AuCountry.com Home of "Team Grumman" TeamGrumman-List@matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/subscribe ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:00:33 PM PST US From: Aucountry@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Auburn --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com In a message dated 08/17/03 11:34:45 PM, gilalex@earthlink.net writes: > Gary.....How about 5 acres only 5 miles from Grass Valley airport.....:) > > Seriously ... good luck in finding a spot in Auburn. > So, tell me more about the 5 acres. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:16:01 PM PST US From: Aucountry@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Firewall Restoration --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com In a message dated 08/18/03 07:02:06 PM, steven.jackson14@adelphia.net writes: > While I've got my engine off, I'm planning on doing some work on the > firewall.=A0 So far, I've been using scotch-brite pads to remove the surface > corrosion, but was wondering if there was some better techniques, especially > as I get the rough stuff off, and begin getting it nice and smooth.=A0 Then, > after that's taken care of, I was looking at options for painting (or not) > the firewall to keep the corrosion from happening again.=A0 I've noticed a > couple of aircraft that have painted firewalls, and was wondering if that > was a good idea.=A0 Is there a way to keep the metal finish and still fight > the corrosion?=A0 I've planned on getting the engine mount magnafluxed and > repainted as well. > Depending on what year your plane is, it may or may not have some stainless steal on the firewall. If not, you can pretty much use anything you want to clean the fire wall. Remove EVERYTHING you can from the firewall. Yes, it takes a long time, but you want it done right, don't you? This will also give you a chance to replace all of the corroded hardware. I use paint stripper applied with a small, 1 inch, paint brush. I do use a 2 inch brush on the larger areas, but, mostly around all the little nooks and crannys, a little brush works the best. Around the engine mounts, do only=20a couple square inches at a time. Clean it, make sure it only goes where you want it, and work carefully and slowly. Once the firewall is completely stripped, if there is any rust or corrosion, use sometin like navel jelly to stop the rust and clean corrosion off the best you can. Sandblast if necessary, the small spots. Clean, Clean, Clean and clean again, with PPG DX 330 wax=20and grease remover. Wipe on wet, dry with a differnt clean rag. Use painters rags from Home Depot. NEVER reuse or use used rags when using DX 330. Washing a rag puts silicon into the fabric and the paint will fish eye. Prime the surface of the firewall with VariPrime self etching primer. Paint the firewall with Imron. Get the engine mount sand blasted, THEN check for cracks and corrosion. If you can, find a powder coater that will dip the engine mount in a metal prep (for rust) prior to powder coating. Podwer coating is superior to painting in so many ways there is just no way to describe it. Use all new hardware when putting everythng back together. I always paint the area around the engine mount attachments on the firewall with Imron tinted to look like Zinc Chromate. What the hell, it looks cool. Gary www.AuCountry.com Home of "Team Grumman" TeamGrumman-List@matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/subscribe ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:16:33 PM PST US From: Aucountry@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Firewall Restoration --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com In a message dated 08/18/03 07:30:31 PM, flyer.bob@verizon.net writes: > Regarding Steven's question, I have appreciated having the entire interior > of my cowl, upper, lower and firewall all finished in gloss white. > > It's relatively easy to keep clean and hardly a fleck of dust nor a drop of > oil can escape my scrutiny. > I couldn't agree more. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:19:56 PM PST US From: Aucountry@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Firewall Restoration --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com In a message dated 08/18/03 08:05:20 PM, flyer.bob@verizon.net writes: > Cliff brings up a good point and reminds me of=A0 a rather unpleasant but > funny story, (for another time).=A0 If you have them paint the firewall, and > "take off almost everything that can be unbolted readily, like the starter > and master relays," and you happen to include the voltage regulator, make > darn sure they clean off the paint enough so that it gets a good ground when > it is re-installed and then check the charging rate when they do the run-up. > I always run a dedicated ground wire to the engine mount-to-engine grounding strap from the regulator. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:21:46 PM PST US From: Aucountry@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Powder Coat for the engine mount --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com In a message dated 08/19/03 11:03:29 PM, steven.jackson14@adelphia.net writes: > TG, > > For anyone in the Southern Cali area, any recommendations for a shop to > powder coat the engine mount? > I use Valley Enamelling in Burbank, There is another in Simi Valley that has a good reputaton. I haven't used them though. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:23:08 PM PST US From: Aucountry@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 08/20/03 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com In a message dated 08/21/03 12:04:57 AM, jnpsavage@cox.net writes: > Gary, > > Is the vernatherm crimped nut business on the Tiger engine also? > > Jan > Not sure what you're referring to. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:30:49 PM PST US From: Aucountry@aol.com Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: That engine sure is cool!!!!!!!!! --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com In a message dated 08/18/03 12:38:08 PM, brettsd@yahoo.com writes: > Gary, > That engine sure is cool!!!!!!!!! > 420CHT on the climb with OAT 100+.=A0 I would have hit > close to 450 before with such an OAT. > When I got back over to habitable temperatures. > I cruised low 370's when I used to cruise high 390's. > I hope to climb out here under with temps under 400. > We'll see.=A0 > Mike should send the pics of the aerodynamic tests > soon...Some interesting data.=A0 There is noticable data > that our cowling is less sleak than yours.=A0 Also, it > doesn't appear that that transition at mid fuselage > was interupted much.=A0 You can be the judge. > Thanks again. > Talk to you soon. > Brett > I installed the larger exit ramps and performed a partial bafflectomy on Cyls #3 & #4. Brett, thanks for the feedback and I'll start getting pics of the airflow on a stock Tiger cowling on the net as soon as I get them. Should be interesting. Gary www.AuCountry.com Home of "Team Grumman" TeamGrumman-List@matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/subscribe ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:48 PM PST US From: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: That engine sure is cool!!!!!!!!! --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com Gary, I'm still confused somewhat by the vocabulary associated w/cooling issues. We just completely replaced the left side baffles on my AA1 150hp during the annual (and rebuild of #4 cyl, broken exhaust valve guide). Very carefully fitted the new pieces and got a good seal on the upper box w/new materials and a skilled IA. Now that side runs 40 degrees cooler than the right side in every regime. Neither side over heated before either, but the baffles were really ugly. Tom PS Went to RHV prop balancing today. Had a great time. The guy really knew his stuff. I started at .5 ips of vibration (.2 is max). Finished flat line, but he put .02 on the log entry. Put about 2 oz on the front spinner bulkhead. Tom ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:34 PM PST US From: Aucountry@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: That engine sure is cool!!!!!!!!! --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com In a message dated 08/23/03 11:40:06 PM, ThomasTholmes512@aol.com writes: > Gary, > I'm still confused somewhat by the vocabulary associated w/cooling issues. > We just completely replaced the left side baffles on my AA1 150hp during the > annual (and rebuild of #4 cyl, broken exhaust valve guide).=A0 Very carefully > fitted the new pieces and got a good seal on the upper box w/new materials > and a > skilled IA.=A0 Now that side runs 40 degrees cooler than the right side in > every regime.=A0 Neither side over heated before either, but the baffles were > really > ugly. > Tom > Baffles and good baffle seals and what some think as sealed are all very subjective. If you can, get a closed hanger or at night put a light in the cowling and look through the cooling air inlets near the spinner. When you don't see any light coming in (except for that which goes through the fins)=20then you have it sealed. Holes the size if a pencil (quarter inch) dump a lot of air. It's all in the details. Gary www.AuCountry.com Home of "Team Grumman" TeamGrumman-List@matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/subscribe