---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/25/03: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:32 AM - Re: Gas Tank Leak #2 (Aucountry@aol.com) 2. 01:34 AM - Re: Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 08/20/03 (Aucountry@aol.com) 3. 04:33 AM - Re: Gas Tank Leak #3 (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 4. 06:25 AM - Re: Gas Tank Leak #2 (flyv35b) 5. 06:30 AM - Re: Gas Tank Leak #3 (flyv35b) 6. 06:32 AM - Re: Gas Tank Leak #2 (linn walters) 7. 10:16 AM - Re: Gas Tank Leak #2 (ThomasTholmes512@aol.com) 8. 10:28 AM - While on the thread of fuel tanks. (ThomasTholmes512@aol.com) 9. 10:54 AM - Shameless Ad: TeamGrumman Listers get 15% off all merchandise at Bad Cat Aviation (Rob Miller) 10. 11:05 AM - Shameless Ad: Coupon code "Grumman" (Rob Miller) 11. 11:30 AM - Re: While on the thread of fuel tanks. (Charles Adams) 12. 11:51 AM - Re: While on the thread of fuel tanks. (ThomasTholmes512@aol.com) 13. 12:19 PM - Re: Re: While on the thread of fuel tanks. (Charles Adams) 14. 12:31 PM - Re: While on the thread of fuel tanks. (ThomasTholmes512@aol.com) 15. 01:11 PM - Re: Re: While on the thread of fuel tanks. (Charles Adams) 16. 02:35 PM - Re: Re: While on the thread of fuel tanks. (flyv35b) 17. 03:05 PM - Re: Re: While on the thread of fuel tanks. (Charles Adams) 18. 04:24 PM - Re: While on the thread of fuel tanks. (ThomasTholmes512@aol.com) 19. 04:25 PM - Re: While on the thread of fuel tanks. (ThomasTholmes512@aol.com) 20. 04:44 PM - Re: Re: While on the thread of fuel tanks. (Charles Adams) 21. 04:50 PM - Re: While on the thread of fuel tanks. (ThomasTholmes512@aol.com) 22. 05:34 PM - Re: Gas Tank Leak #3 (Aucountry@aol.com) 23. 05:40 PM - Re: While on the thread of fuel tanks. (Aucountry@aol.com) 24. 06:21 PM - Re: While on the thread of fuel tanks. (ThomasTholmes512@aol.com) 25. 06:46 PM - Re: Gas Tank Leak #3-ANSWER (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 26. 07:24 PM - Re: Re: While on the thread of fuel tanks. (Charles Adams) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:36 AM PST US From: Aucountry@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Gas Tank Leak #2 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com In a message dated 08/24/03 04:33:36 PM, FLYaDIVE@aol.com writes: > WELL ... On my system there is NO rubber line.=A0 The 1/4" Aluminum breather > line is fitted at both ends (Sump & Wing Tank) with aluminum flair > fittings.=A0 > I don't think I've ever seen a plane with no vent lines in or to the tank. =20 Check again. The metal fittings are fuel lines. Gary ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:34:27 AM PST US From: Aucountry@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 08/20/03 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com In a message dated 08/24/03 06:46:08 AM, flyv35b@juno.com writes: > I think this was previously answered.=A0 All of the engines use the same > vernatherm valve to my knowledge.=A0=A0 And yes the nust is crimped or staked on > to prevent it from loosening and backing off.=A0 Security of the nut can be > checked by compressing the spring and trying to move the nut to see if it=20is > tight. > Are you talking about the nut on the vernatherm seat itself? yes, it must be staked to prevcent it from coming off. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:41 AM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Gas Tank Leak #3 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 8/25/03 4:32:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Aucountry@aol.com writes: > > WELL ... On my system there is NO rubber line.=A0 The 1/4" Aluminum > breather > > line is fitted at both ends (Sump & Wing Tank) with aluminum flair > > fittings.=A0 > > > > I don't think I've ever seen a plane with no vent lines in or to the tank. = > 20 > Check again. The metal fittings are fuel lines. > > Gary ====================== Gary: To better describe what I have ... wish I had a digital camera ... but here goes: ~ Grumman AA-5, built at the end of 1973 BUT Licensed in 1974 with a Baggage Door, S/N: 0436. I don't know if that info makes any difference ~ From the SUMP there are 4 Aluminum lines that ALL have Flair Fittings on the SUMP. ~ 2 Lines (inside area of sump, large diameter about 1/2") go to the wing tank. ~ 1 Line goes from the rear aft of the sump to the fuselage ( fuel selector valve) ~ 1 Line 1/4" diameter on the forward TOP of the sump goes to the TOP of the wing tank, it is the breather line. YES, it does have a Flair Fitting going INTO the Wing Tank. Double and triple checked that. The rubber line, that we are discussing??? Is that the one INSIDE the wing tank that drains water from the filler cap area? If NOT... I do not have a rubber line on the breather coming from the sump. NONE at all. Maybe that is a good thing? Barry ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:44 AM PST US From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Gas Tank Leak #2 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" I think he's saying the rubber hose in the vent line was replaced with flared tubing and a tube union. I don't know how you'd get a flaring tool up in there to do that. There isn't enough room. Cliff A&P/IA ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Gas Tank Leak #2 > --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com > > > In a message dated 08/24/03 04:33:36 PM, FLYaDIVE@aol.com writes: > > > > WELL ... On my system there is NO rubber line.=A0 The 1/4" Aluminum breather > > line is fitted at both ends (Sump & Wing Tank) with aluminum flair > > fittings.=A0 > > > > I don't think I've ever seen a plane with no vent lines in or to the tank. > Check again. The metal fittings are fuel lines. > > Gary > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:30:02 AM PST US From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Gas Tank Leak #3 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" > The rubber line, that we are discussing??? Is that the one INSIDE the wing > tank that drains water from the filler cap area? That's called the scupper drain line and there is a short rubber hose inside the tank connecting the two aluminum tuges. > If NOT... I do not have a rubber line on the breather coming from the sump. > NONE at all. Maybe that is a good thing? > > Barry This would be the first I have heard of this. I guess the factory made it this way when they install the breather line. It is a better arrangement in some respects in that there is not hose to deteriorate. Cliff A&P/IA ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Gas Tank Leak #3 > --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com > > In a message dated 8/25/03 4:32:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Aucountry@aol.com writes: > > > > WELL ... On my system there is NO rubber line.=A0 The 1/4" Aluminum > > breather > > > line is fitted at both ends (Sump & Wing Tank) with aluminum flair > > > fittings.=A0 > > > > > > > I don't think I've ever seen a plane with no vent lines in or to the tank. > > > 20 > > Check again. The metal fittings are fuel lines. > > > > Gary > ====================== > Gary: > > To better describe what I have ... wish I had a digital camera ... but here > goes: > ~ Grumman AA-5, built at the end of 1973 BUT Licensed in 1974 with a Baggage > Door, S/N: 0436. I don't know if that info makes any difference > ~ From the SUMP there are 4 Aluminum lines that ALL have Flair Fittings on > the SUMP. > ~ 2 Lines (inside area of sump, large diameter about 1/2") go to the wing > tank. > ~ 1 Line goes from the rear aft of the sump to the fuselage ( fuel selector > valve) > ~ 1 Line 1/4" diameter on the forward TOP of the sump goes to the TOP of the > wing tank, it is the breather line. YES, it does have a Flair Fitting going > INTO the Wing Tank. Double and triple checked that. > > The rubber line, that we are discussing??? Is that the one INSIDE the wing > tank that drains water from the filler cap area? > If NOT... I do not have a rubber line on the breather coming from the sump. > NONE at all. Maybe that is a good thing? > > Barry > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:01 AM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Gas Tank Leak #2 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: linn walters flyv35b wrote: >--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" > >I think he's saying the rubber hose in the vent line was replaced with >flared tubing and a tube union. I don't know how you'd get a flaring tool >up in there to do that. There isn't enough room. > And I think the 'sump' is the gear fairing. But then that's what I get for thinking!!! :-! Linn > >Cliff A&P/IA >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Gas Tank Leak #2 > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:16:38 AM PST US From: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Gas Tank Leak #2 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com You could not get a flaring tool in my wing. Could it have been done when the aux tanks were installed?? Tom ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:28:01 AM PST US From: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com Subject: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com I have the aux tank STC in my AA1. One filler cap per side. It is a major pain in the patoot to fill it up. The cross feed tubes between the two tanks are just too small for efficient filling. Can I add another line/bigger line / another filler cap?? 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Thanks. www.badcataviation.com ===== Rob Miller RV-8 N262RM 135 hours Bad Cat Aviation--Toy Airplanes and Unique Pilot Gifts www.badcataviation.com __________________________________ http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:26 AM PST US From: Rob Miller Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Shameless Ad: Coupon code "Grumman" --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Rob Miller Use Coupon Code "Grumman" during check-out at Bad Cat Aviation and receive 15% off all merchandise. www.badcataviation.com ===== Rob Miller RV-8 N262RM 135 hours Bad Cat Aviation--Toy Airplanes and Unique Pilot Gifts www.badcataviation.com __________________________________ http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:32 AM PST US From: Charles Adams Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Charles Adams Tom, If you have the Blackman tanks you will have to call him. This sounds like a major design change. Are you trying to bring it more in line with the DMA tanks? Charlie Adams > > From: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com > Date: 2003/08/25 Mon AM 10:27:00 PDT > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > Subject: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:52 AM PST US From: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com Charlie, I'll check my paperwork to be sure, but I think this is the DMA stc. I've never heard anyone else whining about the length of time it takes to refuel tho', so I'm not sure what I'm trying to solve just yet! ;-) It is really hot here in the summers, so I could just be feeling that?? I fill one side to the brim and a little bit, then fill the other side to the brim and a little bit, go back to the first side and top again, then back to the second side and top again, plus trickling in whatever will go in (it is still not full) and go back and trickle the first side until it is up to the brim (it still isn't full either), then run out of patience and put it all away. I am very careful about fuel burn vs time, just in case. Tom ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:40 PM PST US From: Charles Adams Subject: Re: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Charles Adams Tom, Its easy to check. DMA tanks have a fuel cap for eack tank total 4. Charlie > > From: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com > Date: 2003/08/25 Mon AM 11:51:03 PDT > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:31:17 PM PST US From: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com I definitely have just two fuel caps. I'm headed out to the airport now and will dig thru the paperwork to see what I've actually got. There is an article re the process and some fotos of this airplane getting the work done in Madera, CA, but I do not recall any formal stc paperwork. Not a particular surprise, given the history of this airplane. thx, Tom ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:58 PM PST US From: Charles Adams Subject: Re: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Charles Adams Tom, If it was installed in Madera it is not Blackmans. Sounds like the type Bill Kelly already had on his AA1C that Gary just finished the upgrades. If so, it was installed on a field approval. My paperwork on this system is also at the hangar, but I won't be going out until tommorrow. Charlie Adams > > From: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com > Date: 2003/08/25 Mon PM 12:30:32 PDT > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:07 PM PST US From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" I think it's the other way around isn't it? Blackmans have separate caps and DMA do not. Cliff A&P/IA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Adams" Subject: Re: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. > --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Charles Adams > > Tom, > > Its easy to check. DMA tanks have a fuel cap for eack tank total 4. > > Charlie > > > > From: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com > > Date: 2003/08/25 Mon AM 11:51:03 PDT > > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:05:00 PM PST US From: Charles Adams Subject: Re: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Charles Adams Sorry Cliff, I have the DMA tanks and have installed them. There is a seperate cap for each tank. In the Blackman install I don't recall seeing more than one cap per side on his installations. I remarked that it was not Blackmans install because it was done in Madera. Ken is the only one who does his install. Charlie > > From: "flyv35b" > Date: 2003/08/25 Mon PM 02:34:26 PDT > To: > Subject: Re: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:10 PM PST US From: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com I just looked thru the paperwork. Nothing on an aux tank installation. My IA has the logbooks finishing off the paperwork from my annual, so I'll dig thru that later. Near as I can tell, there is a 3/8" line at the inboard end of the aux tank that T's into the outlet of the main tank. The aux tank is forward of the spar. The filler at the top is about 1" from what I can see by flashlight and mirror. It will be interesting to chase down. I have the CD from OKC. I'll thumb thru that this evening. A 337 should be there, but an STC will not. Tom ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:32 PM PST US From: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com Do you think that DMA or Blackman's would have a record of who they sold the STCs to? I can send them an email?? Tom ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:55 PM PST US From: Charles Adams Subject: Re: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Charles Adams This upgrade is from a guy in So Cal. Had very good paper work for the field approval. This is the same as is on Bill Kellys AA1C. Gary, do you have a copy of Bills aux tank install? If Gary doesn't, I can copy and send to you. Charlie > > From: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com > Date: 2003/08/25 Mon PM 04:23:25 PDT > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:29 PM PST US From: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com I would appreciate it. email or snail mail? Tom ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:42 PM PST US From: Aucountry@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Gas Tank Leak #3 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com It could be that you just have a plane that is different from anything I've seen. Maybe American Aircraft tried something different with that plane and then changed their minds. Gary ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:38 PM PST US From: Aucountry@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com In a message dated 08/25/03 04:45:19 PM, cradams2@adelphia.net writes: > Gary, do you have a copy of Bills aux tank install? > > If Gary doesn't, I can copy and send to you. > > Charlie > No, I didn't keep a copy of Bills paperwork. I like the single filler cap. Bills has a crossfeed at the top so that if the guy filling the tanks aims it toward the front, it fills the front tank. Filler neck to the aux tank is about 1 1/4 inch. Gary ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:13 PM PST US From: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: ThomasTholmes512@aol.com Charlie/Gary, this sure looks like what I have all right. I'll know more when I get a chance to dig thru the logs. thx, Tom ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:31 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Gas Tank Leak #3-ANSWER --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 8/25/03 9:31:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, flyv35b@juno.com writes: > This would be the first I have heard of this. I guess the factory made it > this way when they install the breather line. It is a better arrangement in > some respects in that there is not hose to deteriorate. > > Cliff A&P/IA ================ Cliff & TG: I got some information about the RUBBER breather hose. It is ONLY on AA-5A & B's it is NOT on the AA-5. The LONG RANGE (50 Gallon) tanks have the rubber breather hose. Maybe some AA-5 owners can verify that. Barry ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:24 PM PST US From: Charles Adams Subject: Re: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Charles Adams The type of tanks Tom has on his AA-1 are from a design by P. Lewis Design and Consultation . He was located in Cucamonga,CA. He was an FAA DER. The 337 was quite complete with all the necessary forms for installation and sign off along with his form 8110-3 DER sign off. The aux tank is located forward of the main tank. These are similar to Blackmans tanks except they don't use a pump to move the fuel. Charlie Adams > > From: Aucountry@aol.com > Date: 2003/08/25 Mon PM 05:39:55 PDT > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: While on the thread of fuel tanks. > >