Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:40 AM - Re: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can? (linn walters)
2. 06:10 AM - Re: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can? (Steven Jackson)
3. 06:27 AM - Re: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can? (Steven Jackson)
4. 06:57 AM - Re: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can? (linn walters)
5. 07:51 AM - FW: Cowling Update 6.9 (Denham, Bobby D.)
6. 08:38 AM - Re: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can? (flyv35b)
7. 08:41 AM - Re: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can? (flyv35b)
8. 09:43 AM - Re: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can? (linn walters)
9. 12:42 PM - Re: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can? (flyv35b)
10. 12:49 PM - Re: Re: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can? (Charles Adams)
11. 05:27 PM - Main seal missing? ()
12. 08:25 PM - Re: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can? (Steven Jackson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Since I haven't rebuilt an engine for a certificated aircraft I can't
answer your last question, but having rebuilt some engines for
experimentals, I have some questions.
Steven Jackson wrote:
>--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Steven Jackson" <steven.jackson14@adelphia.net>
>
>TG,
>
>Second, an update on the overhaul. During teardown, there were a couple of
>relatively major parts deficiencies that were discovered. 1st, the
>crankshaft oil seal was missing (which I'm told probably contributed to all
>my oil leaks).
>
Man, a missing seal will dump a lot of oil, as in all the oil, leading
to engine failure. I just can't believe that it was missing ...... or
maybe I'm missing something????
> 2nd, the oil cooler bypass spring and plunger was missing
>from under the plug (I alluded to this last week in another email with vague
>parts references).
>
Is this the oil FILTER bypass spring??? There was some confusion about
this part, which most (me too) thought you were talking about the
vernitherm. The hardware you describe is the oil filter bypass and the
vernitherm is the oil cooler control. They are definitely different.
Without an oil filter installed, the hardware under the nut is missing
(don't need it) so I suspect that this is normal. This is from my
limited knowledge, which may not be entirely correct so if anyone REALLY
knows for sure ..... I hope they'll set the record straight. This
discrepancy (if there really is one) makes me wonder about the person
doing the overhaul. HE should really know.
> There were lesser errors in incorrect hardware use
>connecting the case halves (lots of external teeth lock washers vice the
>internal teeth called for).
>
Mechanically the same, but I agree that it's disconcerting.
> As for damage--it broke down like this: the
>intake valve key was smashed flat (rivet style) on the end of the intake
>valve of the #4 cylinder,
>
This part I don't understand. The valve assemblys only have a few
parts: The valve, two springs (one inside the other). a large 'washer'
atop the springs ..... not really a washer but you get the idea) and two
tapered valve keepers. Like I say, my knowledge is limited so someone
educate me here.
> with extensive spalling on both #4 cam followers
>with resulting cam lobe damage. The cam is shot as a result.
>
There are a lot of things between the cam and the valve. I don't see
how something on the head can affect the cam follower unless it's
hammering caused by severe backlash caused by misadjustment of the
rocker arm. Most cam follower spalling is caused by not using the
engines often enough. Acids collect in the oil due to their operation,
and will collect in the top of theengine where the cam is due to
condensation. The cam followers rust a little and will develop worm
tracks (my definition) which looks like a small worm ate a little steel
in a random pattern. The normally really smooth cam follower is now
rough, and will wear the cam lobe down.
> There was
>minor fretting of the case halves,
>
This, I think, is normal. I've had my case halves modified to put in a
steel collar that locks the case halves together. The other mod I do is
to add the piston oil sprayers if they're not there. Those two mods
should extend the life of the engine and don't cost much extra over a
normal case overhaul.
> but no abnormal wear to any of the crank
>bearings, although the front journal of the crank has some wear that is
>minutely hour glass shaped. And, lastly, as stated before, all the cylinder
>base nuts were severely under torqued, with two broken cyl base studs, held
>down by internal hex base nuts not called for by the parts manual.
>
Again, they may be mechanically the same, but disconcerting, nonetheless.
>Although I have yet been able to locate the previous overhauler on this
>engine,
>
Should be listed in the logs, but folks doing things on the cheap may
not care whether the information is there when they sell the plane.
Especially if it appears that the engine is now at TBO anyway.
> in the event that I do find him, is there any sort of punitive
>action the FAA can take regarding this kind of fly-by-night engine building?
>I know I can't recoup anything from this guy, but maybe the FAA can stop him
>from doing this to another engine?
>
I was faced with a similar dilemma just last year. I was a victim of an
A&P who rebuilt the carb in my Tomahawk, just before I bought it. The
'axle' that the float rides on has a swaged end and a hole in the other
end. For a cotter pin. That was MIA. The pin vibrated out of the
holes on one side allowing the float to drop down on that side. The
float could no longer shut off the flow of fuel, and the engine flooded
in flight causing an off-field landing. No damage to people, property,
or the airplane, but it could just as easily been fatal to two pilots.
We were extremely lucky, to say the least. So, armed with the carb data
I went to the FAA who didn't give a tinker's damn about creating a
'problem' for the A&P since time had passed and the A&P wasn't in his
district .... yada yada. I also wanted toprevent the same scenario as
you ..... this A&P said "I never put a cotter pin in there .... the case
keeps the pin from coming out." Well most of the time anyway! So my
advice here is that you document the 'errors' by the rebuilder with
photo's, and only if you can find the 'rebuilder', forward them to the
FAA ..... but don't hold your breath. You've done all you could.
Linn Walters
>
>Thanks,
>
>Steven Jackson
>N1434R
>L22
>Yucca Valley, CA
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Steven Jackson" <steven.jackson14@adelphia.net>
Sorry Gary,
I had gotten some recommendations from others, but not you. But, I've got
everything I need to run with now--Thanks.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Aucountry@aol.com
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can?
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com
In a message dated 08/26/03 10:31:42 PM, steven.jackson14@adelphia.net
writes:
> This may be a dumb question seeing how its called "two part" primer, but
is
> there such a thing as a two-part epoxy primer in a spray can.=A0 I went to
the
> Randolph Finishes website and checked Spruce and I can't find it at
either.
> My problem is this, with the engine off, I'm planning on redoing the
> firewall, engine mount, etc. and am looking for recommendations for
> finishes.=A0 There is not a paint shop at my field, nor is there anyone
with
> the gear to shoot paint, so I'm limited to doing this with what's
available.
> David Fletcher recommended the epoxy primer and enamel paint for the
engine
> mount, or Rustoleum and enamel in a spray can if the epoxy primer can't
> work.=A0
>
Steve, did you not get the posting on recommendations for engine mount and
firewall restoration? Save yourslef the agrivation, time and cost and have
the
engine mount bead blasted and powder coated. You'll be glad you did. It
will cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $100 total. You can't do that
yourself for less. (and have it last to the next annual)
Use VariPrime as a pimer on your firewall. It's a two part self etching
primer. It's very forgiving. You can paint it yourself with a gun from
Harbor
Freight. Same with the color coat.
Gary
www.AuCountry.com
Home of "Team Grumman"
TeamGrumman-List@matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Message 3
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| Subject: | Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Steven Jackson" <steven.jackson14@adelphia.net>
Linn Walters wrote:
Since I haven't rebuilt an engine for a certificated aircraft I can't
answer your last question, but having rebuilt some engines for
experimentals, I have some questions.
Yeah, the seal was just gone. There was some rubber scoring on the crank
journal that showed there was a seal at one time, but there wasn't a seal
taken off the crank during teardown. My oil consumption has always been
high, with several leaks in obscure places. The prior overhaul would have
been the first overhaul on the engine, and I'm of the opinion that it wasn't
ever there. Can't prove it of course--just a gut feeling given the
condition of the rest of the engine.
The parts that were missing from the accessory case was the oil filter
bypass spring and plunger.
The "washer" is the seat--and the key is the "valve keeper" you describe.
Those were bent down flat against the seat, looking like the head of a
rivet.
Steven Jackson
N1434R
L22
Yucca Valley, CA
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Steven Jackson wrote:
>--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Steven Jackson" <steven.jackson14@adelphia.net>
>
>Linn Walters wrote:
>
>Since I haven't rebuilt an engine for a certificated aircraft I can't
>answer your last question, but having rebuilt some engines for
>experimentals, I have some questions.
>
>Yeah, the seal was just gone. There was some rubber scoring on the crank
>journal that showed there was a seal at one time, but there wasn't a seal
>taken off the crank during teardown. My oil consumption has always been
>high, with several leaks in obscure places. The prior overhaul would have
>been the first overhaul on the engine, and I'm of the opinion that it wasn't
>ever there. Can't prove it of course--just a gut feeling given the
>condition of the rest of the engine.
>
I find that utterly amazing!!! That means that the front bearing was
still very tight. .... A good thing!!!
>The parts that were missing from the accessory case was the oil filter
>bypass spring and plunger.
>
Glad we got that out of the way! Unless there's a filter, that's normal.
>The "washer" is the seat--and the key is the "valve keeper" you describe.
>Those were bent down flat against the seat, looking like the head of a
>rivet.
>
Ah, I think I see. The keepers weren't fully seated and the rocker arm
bent the 'tops' of the keepers over. Disgusting. I vote we hang the
perpetrator by his gonads. None of the things were (in my mind) safety
issues (except the crank seal) but are not the signs of a concientous
assembler. The problem is that they may still be out there screwing
folks left and right with impunity. I guess it takes someone getting
killed before a solution is found ...... but then it's too late for the
killee.
We all know that trying to make a living as an A&P is tough, and there
probably isn't a deep pocket anywhere that the survivors can sue so the
problem just stays. Sad. I really have to admire those A&Ps that are
scratching out a living (and do good work) ..... they have to bust butt
to do it ..... and all the while fearing getting sued for something that
wasn't really their (or anyone else's) fault. Hell of a way to make a
living!!! I'm fortunate that I can play A&P legally for my own benefit
.... because I enjoy working with my hands, and aviation is just a hobby
..... but cringe at the thought of having to do it for a living.
Be safe out there!!!
Linn
>Steven Jackson
>N1434R
>L22
>Yucca Valley, CA
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Cowling Update 6.9 |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Denham, Bobby D." <BDDenham@lasd.org>
I have seen Gary's Cowl up close. I have to tell you it is a piece of art.
Not only is it aerodynamically superior to anything I have seen in the past,
it looks great!
Bob
74' Traveler
-----Original Message-----
From: Aucountry@aol.com [mailto:Aucountry@aol.com]
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling Update 6.9
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com
The first phase of cowling development is complete. I am pretty happy with
all but one small area on the left inlet. The next step is to examine the
effect on drag different exit ramp configurations. Sadly, I have to give
back
the Tiger being used for research. So, if you know of anyone who wants to
donate a Tiger for a few months ( a year??? ). I suppose I could use a
Cheetah
as well. That would be a good bit of research.
I have many many pics of dye (oil) flow testing (this testing allows
visualization of the airflow paterns on the surface of the part being
investigated) on
both my cowling and a stock Tiger cowling. The differences are pretty
dramatic. I hope I can (soon) get these pictures all together and on the
net to
show everyone.
So, any Tiger Cheetah owners willing to donate their planes?????
Gary
www.AuCountry.com
Home of "Team Grumman"
TeamGrumman-List@matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@juno.com>
The best primers to use are either DuPont Vari-prime or an epoxy primer that
Boeing uses (I can't remember the name offhand). The "Boeing" primer is
more impervious to solvents than Vari-prime if not topcoated and even MEK
will not attack it. You must get the surface very clean before applying
either. I would then topcoat the firewall with Imron since it is about the
most durable paint you will find. There are other polyurethane paints that
would be similar.
I would suggest powdercoating the engine mount. It's more durable than
paint and will look better for much longer.
As far as your engine is concerned it sounds like someome did some really
sloppy work.
How could the crank seal be missing unless it was never installed? Or did
it just come out of the bore?
The case likely fretter because of the loose through bolts. It will need to
be lapped and line bored to the tune of nearly $1000. Send the case to a
good engine overhaul machine shop that specializes in this. If fact send
all the steel parts to be inspected and magnafluxed, especially the rods.
Cam wear is common. Cams can be ground if not worn to much (very little).
Replace both the cam and followers. I've never heard of a smashed intake
valve key. Was it not installed correctly in the first place and got wedged
incorretly in the spring retainer? Pretty bizzare.
Lycoming publishes a list of parts that they recommend replacing with new in
order to call the engine work an overhaul. I suggest you get a copy of that
and adhere to it. Don' forget the engine oil/fuel hoses if they are over 10
years old (maximum) and the engine mounts.
Cliff A&P/IA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Jackson" <steven.jackson14@adelphia.net>
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can?
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Steven Jackson"
<steven.jackson14@adelphia.net>
>
> TG,
>
> This may be a dumb question seeing how its called "two part" primer, but
is
> there such a thing as a two-part epoxy primer in a spray can. I went to
the
> Randolph Finishes website and checked Spruce and I can't find it at
either.
> My problem is this, with the engine off, I'm planning on redoing the
> firewall, engine mount, etc. and am looking for recommendations for
> finishes. There is not a paint shop at my field, nor is there anyone with
> the gear to shoot paint, so I'm limited to doing this with what's
available.
> David Fletcher recommended the epoxy primer and enamel paint for the
engine
> mount, or Rustoleum and enamel in a spray can if the epoxy primer can't
> work. Also, should I just go with Zinc Chromate for the fire wall or the
> same epoxy primer? I have the aluminumized steel firewall in my plane.
If
> the stuff is available, I think I can do a pretty good job with spraying
it
> myself, but I need to figure out the best way to go on paint products. My
> A&P said polyurethane paint is the most durable--just fishing for ideas.
>
> Second, an update on the overhaul. During teardown, there were a couple
of
> relatively major parts deficiencies that were discovered. 1st, the
> crankshaft oil seal was missing (which I'm told probably contributed to
all
> my oil leaks). 2nd, the oil cooler bypass spring and plunger was missing
> from under the plug (I alluded to this last week in another email with
vague
> parts references). There were lesser errors in incorrect hardware use
> connecting the case halves (lots of external teeth lock washers vice the
> internal teeth called for). As for damage--it broke down like this: the
> intake valve key was smashed flat (rivet style) on the end of the intake
> valve of the #4 cylinder, with extensive spalling on both #4 cam followers
> with resulting cam lobe damage. The cam is shot as a result. There was
> minor fretting of the case halves, but no abnormal wear to any of the
crank
> bearings, although the front journal of the crank has some wear that is
> minutely hour glass shaped. And, lastly, as stated before, all the
cylinder
> base nuts were severely under torqued, with two broken cyl base studs,
held
> down by internal hex base nuts not called for by the parts manual.
>
> Although I have yet been able to locate the previous overhauler on this
> engine, in the event that I do find him, is there any sort of punitive
> action the FAA can take regarding this kind of fly-by-night engine
building?
> I know I can't recoup anything from this guy, but maybe the FAA can stop
him
> from doing this to another engine?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steven Jackson
> N1434R
> L22
> Yucca Valley, CA
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@juno.com>
My theory about the seal is they installed a split seal and it worked out of
the crankcase bore and then was able to drop off from around the crankshaft.
They is no way a solid seal could come off.
Cliff A&P/IA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Jackson" <steven.jackson14@adelphia.net>
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can?
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Steven Jackson"
<steven.jackson14@adelphia.net>
>
> Linn Walters wrote:
>
> Since I haven't rebuilt an engine for a certificated aircraft I can't
> answer your last question, but having rebuilt some engines for
> experimentals, I have some questions.
>
> Yeah, the seal was just gone. There was some rubber scoring on the crank
> journal that showed there was a seal at one time, but there wasn't a seal
> taken off the crank during teardown. My oil consumption has always been
> high, with several leaks in obscure places. The prior overhaul would have
> been the first overhaul on the engine, and I'm of the opinion that it
wasn't
> ever there. Can't prove it of course--just a gut feeling given the
> condition of the rest of the engine.
>
> The parts that were missing from the accessory case was the oil filter
> bypass spring and plunger.
>
> The "washer" is the seat--and the key is the "valve keeper" you describe.
> Those were bent down flat against the seat, looking like the head of a
> rivet.
>
>
> Steven Jackson
> N1434R
> L22
> Yucca Valley, CA
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
flyv35b wrote:
>--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@juno.com>
>
>My theory about the seal is they installed a split seal and it worked out of
>the crankcase bore and then was able to drop off from around the crankshaft.
>They is no way a solid seal could come off.
>
>Cliff A&P/IA
>
I agree. But I would expect that the spring in the seal should keep it
around the crank. Wierd, to say the least! I still don't see how the
seal can be missing and not blow out all the oil. 'Tis a puzzlement!
Linn
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@juno.com>
Yes, if the spring were hooked on the ends it should keep it there. Maybe
it never was installed! Should have blown oil all over the windshield
without a seal.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: "linn walters" <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can?
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: linn walters
<lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
>
> flyv35b wrote:
>
> >--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@juno.com>
> >
> >My theory about the seal is they installed a split seal and it worked out
of
> >the crankcase bore and then was able to drop off from around the
crankshaft.
> >They is no way a solid seal could come off.
> >
> >Cliff A&P/IA
> >
> I agree. But I would expect that the spring in the seal should keep it
> around the crank. Wierd, to say the least! I still don't see how the
> seal can be missing and not blow out all the oil. 'Tis a puzzlement!
> Linn
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Charles Adams <cradams2@adelphia.net>
Yep,
Oil will go all over. Lost one on take off. Thought I was flying a radial.
Hard to miss the missing seal at annual.
>
> From: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@juno.com>
> Date: 2003/08/27 Wed PM 12:41:56 PDT
> To: <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can?
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Main seal missing? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: <315@cox.net>
Just another point for reference.
I have been doing the HC STC on my O320 E2G from my Cheetah. The IA found
the main seal was stuck on the crank and spinning. I was quite fortunate
that the 5.5 hour flight previous to pulling the engine exhibited only a
very little oil leak in the cowls.
This engine had the seal replaced during OH at 14 hours and 5 years previous
to the flight:) Guess there may be something to the old saying that seals
dry out with time and no use???
----- Original Message -----
From: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@juno.com>
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can?
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@juno.com>
>
> Yes, if the spring were hooked on the ends it should keep it there. Maybe
> it never was installed! Should have blown oil all over the windshield
> without a seal.
>
> Cliff
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "linn walters" <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
> To: <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can?
>
>
> > --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: linn walters
> <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
> >
> > flyv35b wrote:
> >
> > >--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@juno.com>
> > >
> > >My theory about the seal is they installed a split seal and it worked
out
> of
> > >the crankcase bore and then was able to drop off from around the
> crankshaft.
> > >They is no way a solid seal could come off.
> > >
> > >Cliff A&P/IA
> > >
> > I agree. But I would expect that the spring in the seal should keep it
> > around the crank. Wierd, to say the least! I still don't see how the
> > seal can be missing and not blow out all the oil. 'Tis a puzzlement!
> > Linn
> >
> >
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Two Part Epoxy Primer in a can? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Steven Jackson" <steven.jackson14@adelphia.net>
Yeah, my A&P is still scratching his head about the oil seal.
Steven Jackson
N1434R
L22
Yucca Valley, CA
Cliff wrote:
How could the crank seal be missing unless it was never installed? Or did
it just come out of the bore?
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