Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:15 AM - Re: Re: : Metal or Alumi Prep (linn walters)
2. 06:38 AM - Re: Exhaust System Clean Up (flyv35b)
3. 07:19 AM - Re: Re: : Metal or Alumi Prep (Gkb5577@aol.com)
4. 07:56 AM - Chromed Nose gear Leg? ()
5. 08:11 AM - Re: Re: : DX330 (Gkb5577@aol.com)
6. 09:38 AM - Re: Chromed Nose gear Leg? (linn walters)
7. 09:57 AM - Re: Chromed Nose gear Leg? (Ron Levy)
8. 10:06 AM - Re: Chromed Nose gear Leg? (linn walters)
9. 11:24 AM - Re: Chromed Nose gear Leg? (Aucountry@aol.com)
10. 11:24 AM - Re: Chromed Nose gear Leg? (Aucountry@aol.com)
11. 11:30 AM - Re: Re: : DX330 (Aucountry@aol.com)
12. 01:16 PM - Re: Chromed Nose gear Leg? (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
13. 01:22 PM - Re: Exhaust System Clean Up (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
14. 02:28 PM - Re: Re: : Metal or Alumi Prep (Denham, Bobby D.)
15. 03:37 PM - Re: DEGASSING Chromed Nose gear Leg? (Gkb5577@aol.com)
16. 03:39 PM - Re: Re: : DX330 (Gkb5577@aol.com)
17. 03:43 PM - Re: Chromed Nose gear Leg? (Gkb5577@aol.com)
18. 04:54 PM - Re: Re: : DX330 (James Courtney)
19. 06:31 PM - Re: Re: : DX330 (Aucountry@aol.com)
20. 07:16 PM - Re: Re: Re: : DX330 (Charles Adams)
21. 08:56 PM - De-Solv-It (was DX330) (Steven Jackson)
22. 08:58 PM - Re: Sata Jet Plastic or Aluminum Cup? (Steven Jackson)
23. 09:57 PM - Re: Re: : DX330 (Aucountry@aol.com)
24. 10:00 PM - Re: Sata Jet Plastic or Aluminum Cup? (Aucountry@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: : Metal or Alumi Prep |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Aucountry@aol.com wrote:
>--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com
>
>
>In a message dated 09/23/03 05:07:22 PM, lwalters2@cfl.rr.com writes:
>
>
>
>
>>Gary, can you let us know why DX330?=A0 I've had excellent results with
>>MEK.=A0 Doesn't leave any residue.=A0 Acetone does, however.
>>Linn
>>
>>
>>
>
>MEK also leaves a residue,
>
I didn't think so, but will concede due to lack of data. It was better
than anything else I'd used.
> MEK also attacks any primers or fillers.
>
True ... I don't wipe the same area twice or stay there too long.
> DX330
>will clean without damaging the type of surface.
>
A good attribute. Who makes it??? I'll try it.
> I also use it to clean the
>inside of the fuel tank before resealing it.
>
That's a hell of an endorsement!!!
>AND... it won;t eat the hell out of your liver like MEK does.
>
Now, that alone is worth switching. Wearing my gloves (nitrile ones
from Harbor freight are better than latex .... especially old latex!!)
and respirator is a pain. Well, the respirator is!!!
Thanks, Gary!
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Exhaust System Clean Up |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@juno.com>
I use oven cleaner on the shroud. It takes most of the baked on oil off.
For the risers stacks, I usually glass bead blast them in my cabinet. You
could do this a little on the shroud but the metal is thin and it would end
up warping it if you are not carefull of do it to much.
Cliff A&P/IA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Jackson" <steven.jackson14@adelphia.net>
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Exhaust System Clean Up
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Steven Jackson"
<steven.jackson14@adelphia.net>
>
> TG,
>
> Need to clean my exhaust during my project. There's a ton of baked on oil
> from the engine on the exhaust shroud and tubing. Plus, there's the usual
> types of soot, etc. on it as well. I figure since its steel, I can use
just
> about anything, but looking for recommendations on the best way to do it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steven Jackson
> N1434R
> L22
> Yucca Valley, CA
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: : Metal or Alumi Prep |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Gkb5577@aol.com
OK Guys: I'm new to the forum but have some familiarity with chemicals.
When cleaning aluminum or other metal surfaces for preparation for electroplating
there is a standardized test that is really quite simple to see if greases
and waxes(there are many in our day to day environment) have been successfully
removed--it involves spraying distilled water ocer the part. It would appear
that if you are finding that acetone has not cleared the part you cannot just
say that it was unsuccessful. You can't "wash" it once : it must be tested,
rewashed , tested, etc....The big difference between MEK and acetone is their
volatility--MEK is preferred because it doesn't evaporate away quite so
quickly. Don't forget that AlumiPrep and other aluminum desmutting agents have
a
surfactant added to improve/homogenize their action. Anyone with more
enlightenment on this I would appreciate hearing from. PS Why can't we all put
together
a book on these topics so everyone can start from the same page(s) so to
speak. Col. Geoff
Message 4
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| Subject: | Chromed Nose gear Leg? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: <315@cox.net>
Hi Gang,
There is a nose gear leg that has been chromed on a Tiger. Does anyone know
for sure if this is undesirable? I have heard that hydrogen embrittlement
is a problem. The shop that chromed the strut said the hydrogen should be
gone withing 3 days of the chroming and that they chrome a lot of gear
legs????
Ned
Message 5
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--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Gkb5577@aol.com
Hi, I'm new to the forum. What is DX330, where can I get it, how does it
work(I'm always curious as to what is actually in 'proprietary' agents. eg.
Carburetor cleaner- do a little research and come to find out that you can use
varnish remover- cheaper and less VOCs, not quite as good a decarbonizer but then
I'd prefer to mechanically clean that off vs. the really carcinogenic agents in
carb cleaner.) Col. Geoff
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Chromed Nose gear Leg? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
315@cox.net wrote:
>--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: <315@cox.net>
>
>Hi Gang,
>There is a nose gear leg that has been chromed on a Tiger. Does anyone know
>for sure if this is undesirable? I have heard that hydrogen embrittlement
>is a problem. The shop that chromed the strut said the hydrogen should be
>gone withing 3 days of the chroming and that they chrome a lot of gear
>legs????
>
>Ned
>
Oh, Great! The FAA is grounding planes with chrome props and now folks
will have to worry about chrome gear legs!
Actually, that's not bad at all because the ranks of homebuilt aircraft
will surely swell!!!
Linn
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Chromed Nose gear Leg? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Ron Levy <rblevy@mindspring.com>
From: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
>--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: <315@cox.net>
>>There is a nose gear leg that has been chromed on a Tiger. Does anyone know
>>for sure if this is undesirable? I have heard that hydrogen embrittlement
>>is a problem. The shop that chromed the strut said the hydrogen should be
>>gone withing 3 days of the chroming and that they chrome a lot of gear
>>legs????
>
>Oh, Great! The FAA is grounding planes with chrome props
The FAA is not to my knowledge grounding planes with chrome-plated props but they
are grounding those with polished unpainted aluminum props. If anyone knows
different, please speak up.
Ron
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Chromed Nose gear Leg? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Ron Levy wrote:
>--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Ron Levy <rblevy@mindspring.com>
>
>From: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
>
>
>
>>--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: <315@cox.net>
>>
>>
>>>There is a nose gear leg that has been chromed on a Tiger. Does anyone know
>>>for sure if this is undesirable? I have heard that hydrogen embrittlement
>>>is a problem. The shop that chromed the strut said the hydrogen should be
>>>gone withing 3 days of the chroming and that they chrome a lot of gear
>>>legs????
>>>
>>>
>>Oh, Great! The FAA is grounding planes with chrome props
>>
>>
>
>The FAA is not to my knowledge grounding planes with chrome-plated props but they
are grounding those with polished unpainted aluminum props. If anyone knows
different, please speak up.
>
>Ron
>
I do believe you're correct. I stand corrected. Brain fart.
L:inn
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Chromed Nose gear Leg? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com
In a message dated 09/24/03 07:57:55 AM, 315@cox.net writes:
> There is a nose gear leg that has been chromed on a Tiger.=A0 Does anyone
> know
> for sure if this is undesirable?=A0 I have heard that hydrogen embrittlement
> is a problem.=A0 The shop that chromed the strut said the hydrogen should=20be
> gone withing 3 days of the chroming and that they chrome a lot of gear
> legs????
>
I think it's nickel plated
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Chromed Nose gear Leg? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com
In a message dated 09/24/03 07:57:55 AM, 315@cox.net writes:
> There is a nose gear leg that has been chromed on a Tiger.=A0 Does anyone
> know
> for sure if this is undesirable?=A0 I have heard that hydrogen embrittlement
> is a problem.=A0 The shop that chromed the strut said the hydrogen should=20be
> gone withing 3 days of the chroming and that they chrome a lot of gear
> legs????
>
ask Cliff, I think it was his at one time
Message 11
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--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com
In a message dated 09/24/03 08:13:07 AM, Gkb5577@aol.com writes:
>
> Hi, I'm new to the forum. What is DX330, where can I get it, how does it
> work(I'm always curious as to what is actually in 'proprietary' agents. eg.
> Carburetor cleaner- do a little research and come to find out that you can
> use
> varnish remover- cheaper and less VOCs, not quite as good a decarbonizer but
> then
> I'd prefer to mechanically clean that off vs. the really carcinogenic agents
> in
> carb cleaner.)=A0 Col. Geoff
>
Auto paint supply store. It's very clean distilled naptha. regular naptha
has stuff in it to reduce vaporization. that additive leaves steaks.
DX330 won't
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Chromed Nose gear Leg? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 9/24/03 10:57:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 315@cox.net
writes:
> Hi Gang,
> There is a nose gear leg that has been chromed on a Tiger. Does anyone
know
> for sure if this is undesirable? I have heard that hydrogen embrittlement
> is a problem. The shop that chromed the strut said the hydrogen should be
> gone withing 3 days of the chroming and that they chrome a lot of gear
> legs????
>
> Ned
==============================
Ned:
Hydrogen embrittlement is caused by the use of Nitric Acid during the
cleaning steps of the plating process. There is ONLY two ways to PREVENT hydrogen
embrittlement.
1 - After processing the item must be BAKED at 600 F for 1 hour or 350 F for
8 hours. As you can imagine this can be costly and can affect the Rockwell,
and Tensile strength of many materials.
2 - The easier method is just to eliminate the Nitric Acid cleaning step.
The only problem this causes it the quality of the bond of the plating.
Chrome Plating to be a good preventive coating against rust has two paths it
can go:
1 - A very thick coating usually in the range of .005 to .010" (5 thousands
to 10 thousands) thick.
2 - The second which is much better and can be done much thinner .003 to
.006" is know as Tri-Vailant Chrome. This is a bit more costly, because it has
three coating process Copper, Nickel and Chrome.
Now, three problems that should be considered with Chrome are:
1 - Thickness - Remember you have to get this tube back into the bracket
which is a tight fit.
2 - Chrome is BRITTLE and the nose gear flexes quite a bit. Chrome is not
know for Elongation or Compression abilities.
3 - Painting - Will you be painting the gear? Chrome does not take paint
well.
What I would recommend is Electroless Nickel. Electroless means that it does
not use electrodes as Chrome does. Electrodes cause High & Low current
density areas of planting. So thickness control can become an issue as in item
#1
above.
And here is how I would plate it with Electroless Nickel (EN)
NO Nitric Acid
LOW PHOS Electroless Nickel
Double Strike - That is:- Start the planting process and let it plate for
about 15 to 20 minutes. Remove the part and Start the process all over again
from the strike on. Let it plate for an additional 15 to 20 minutes. This
should yield a thickness of .002 to .004"
Now, you have a very high corrosion resistant coating and if you wish to
paint it Nickel will take paint much better than Chrome. Also the elongation and
compression of Nickel is better than that of Chrome.
BUT! What is your best and easiest bet? Sand blast it followed by a Bead
Blast of 220 or 320 grit and Paint it. The SMOOTHER a metal surface is the
harder it is for rust to get a foot hold.
Hope all this helps?
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Exhaust System Clean Up |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 9/24/03 12:19:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
steven.jackson14@adelphia.net writes:
> Need to clean my exhaust during my project. There's a ton of baked on oil
> from the engine on the exhaust shroud and tubing. Plus, there's the usual
> types of soot, etc. on it as well. I figure since its steel, I can use
just
> about anything, but looking for recommendations on the best way to do it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steven Jackson
> N1434R
> L22
> Yucca Valley, CA
=====================
Steven:
One way would be to GLASS BEAD BLAST it, use 220 or 320 grit, at 80 to 100
PSI.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: : Metal or Alumi Prep |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Denham, Bobby D." <BDDenham@lasd.org>
Where do you get it?
-----Original Message-----
From: Aucountry@aol.com [mailto:Aucountry@aol.com]
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: : Metal or Alumi Prep
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com
In a message dated 09/23/03 05:07:22 PM, lwalters2@cfl.rr.com writes:
> Gary, can you let us know why DX330?=A0 I've had excellent results with
> MEK.=A0 Doesn't leave any residue.=A0 Acetone does, however.
> Linn
>
MEK also leaves a residue, MEK also attacks any primers or fillers.
DX330
will clean without damaging the type of surface. I also use it to clean
the
inside of the fuel tank before resealing it.
AND... it won;t eat the hell out of your liver like MEK does.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: DEGASSING Chromed Nose gear Leg? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Gkb5577@aol.com
Saw your note: Not addressed to me but you need the reference for Caswell
Plating Inc. Thier handbook (for home platers) clearly discusses the issue of
hydrogen embrittlement. Basics: The surface hydrogen is degassed PRIOR to the
plating (a simple process, by the way). The comment you say the plating
company made is not conducive to reassurance that the person making the comment
was
intimately familiar with either the chemistry, process or customer
management. Questions AO, please contact me. Col Geoff
Message 16
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--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Gkb5577@aol.com
Thanks DX330WHIZZ, much appreciated. Geoff
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Chromed Nose gear Leg? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Gkb5577@aol.com
WOW! This is a great precis of the plating process! He knows his stuff. Geoff
Message 18
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--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "James Courtney" <jamey@jamescourtney.net>
All this DX330 talk has got me remembering to try and clean up under my
brake pedals where someone spilled some now-dried-on brake fluid. It turns
out I can get DX330 locally for about $10/qt and $2x/gallon so I've got a
project for Saturday:)
Maybe I'll have time to try Linn's vacuum test of my primer while I'm at it
all...
Jamey
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Gkb5577@aol.com
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: : DX330
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Gkb5577@aol.com
Thanks DX330WHIZZ, much appreciated. Geoff
Message 19
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--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com
In a message dated 09/24/03 04:56:02 PM, jamey@jamescourtney.net writes:
> It turns
> out I can get DX330 locally for about $10/qt and $2x/gallon so I've got a
> project for Saturday:)
>
>
Rather than DX330, for under the pedals, use De-Solv-it. You can get it at
Walmart, Kmart, some Albertsons.... It cleans grease very well and will not
attack aluminum
Gary
www.AuCountry.com
Home of "Team Grumman"
TeamGrumman-List@matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Message 20
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--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Charles Adams <cradams2@adelphia.net>
Carb cleaner spray from the automotive aisle also works for built up grime. Use
with a scotch brite for the hard baked on stuff(muffler)
Charlie Adams
>
> From: Aucountry@aol.com
> Date: 2003/09/24 Wed PM 06:31:16 PDT
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: : DX330
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | De-Solv-It (was DX330) |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Steven Jackson" <steven.jackson14@adelphia.net>
I concur on the De-Solv-It. I get it at the grocery store. I've sprayed it
on the belly of the plane, wait 5-10 minutes and then spray it off with a
water hose--takes all the grease and oil off. Even gets some of the exhaust
soot off as well--without scrubbing. And, a little goes a long way. They
make it in Gilbert, AZ which is just outside of Phoenix. I've got my A&P
hooked on the stuff.
Steven Jackson
N1434R
L22
Yucca Valley, CA
Message 22
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| Subject: | Sata Jet Plastic or Aluminum Cup? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Steven Jackson" <steven.jackson14@adelphia.net>
Gary wrote:
As for the primer. if you are going to sand the surface after application,
it
desn't matter too much. If you are going to top coat right after the
primer, use a gun that atomizes the paint well and leaves a nice finish on
the
surface. Every flaw will show through. Even flaws you can't see or
feel=20in the
primer will be visible in the top coat.
Does that mean that you recommend to sand the primer before the topcoat?
Steven Jackson
N1434R
L22
Yucca Valley, CA
Message 23
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--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com
In a message dated 09/24/03 07:22:27 PM, cradams2@adelphia.net writes:
> Carb cleaner spray from the automotive aisle also works for built up grime.
> Use with a scotch=A0 brite for the hard baked on stuff(muffler)
>
will carb cleaner work on my BBQ grills? I've got a BBQ with 10 years of
residue on it. Easy-Off didn't touch it. I might try paint stripper next.
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Sata Jet Plastic or Aluminum Cup? |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com
In a message dated 09/24/03 08:59:29 PM, steven.jackson14@adelphia.net
writes:
> Does that mean that you recommend to sand the primer before the topcoat?
>
VariPrime shrinks pretty well. If, however, you get the tiniest of runs or
sags in the VariPrime, by all means, sand it (block it) out and touch up with
more VariPrime. If you go more than 24 hrs between Variprime and ready to
paint, scuff it with ScotchBright. Wipe down 2-3 times with DX330, then paint.
Gary
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