---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/20/05: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:52 PM - EDM Fuel Flow Installation in Tiger (Dave) 2. 05:51 PM - Re: EDM Fuel Flow Installation in Tiger (flyv35b) 3. 06:15 PM - Re: EDM Fuel Flow Installation in Tiger (Dave) 4. 09:17 PM - Re: EDM Fuel Flow Installation in Tiger (TeamGrumman@AOL.COM) 5. 09:28 PM - Re: EDM Fuel Flow Installation in Tiger (Gil Alexander) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:54 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: TeamGrumman-List: EDM Fuel Flow Installation in Tiger --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Dave" I've just installed an EDM 700 with fuel flow during annual on my Tiger, I also rebuilt the fuel selector valve and removed and cleaned the aux pump filter. At run up time, I was unable to pressurize the fuel system with the aux pump, thinking that having the lines open at the selector valve may be the problem, I opened the top fitting on the aux pump and poured fuel in to "prime" the line. The aux pump then pressurized the system but during run up I only saw 0-2 psi and it was erratic.When idled back, the pressure dropped to 0 and the engine quit. The aux pump sounds like it is operating normally and there are no apparent leaks or other problems. To install the EDM fuel flow transmitter, I turned the fitting at the outlet of the engine pump pointing up, added an elbow pointed outboard to an 18" flex line that loops back around to the transmitter, then another flex line about 6" long from the transmitter to the carb inlet. Before I take everything back apart and install the original hard line from the pump to the carb to see if this corrects the problem , does anyone have any experience with the EDM installation and how to best route the lines?? Any thoughts on what may be causing the low/ no pressure will be appreciated. Dave McKnight Tiger N880DM ----- Original Message ----- From: "TeamGrumman-List Digest Server" Subject: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 11/19/05 > * > > ================================================== > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================== > > Today's complete TeamGrumman-List Digest can also be found in either of > the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the TeamGrumman-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text > editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list/Digest.TeamGrumman-List.2005-11-19.html > > Text Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list/Digest.TeamGrumman-List.2005-11-19.txt > > > ================================================ > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================ > > > TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Sat 11/19/05: 0 > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:56 PM PST US From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: EDM Fuel Flow Installation in Tiger --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" If your electric fuel pump only puts out 2 psi pressure I would say that either there is air in the line or there is something wrong with the pump as normal pressure is close to 5 psi. Even without the electric pump running the engine driven pump should have been able to supply plenty of fuel to keep the engine running. Something sounds amiss. What does JPI say about transducer installation and hose routing? I believe that turning the fitting at the pump upwards is the wrong thing to do as it may be possible to trap air in a high part of the line. The line should probably be routed downhill to the transducer and then upward to the carburetor. While I have located the transducer in the line between the electric pump outlet and the mechanical pump inlet in the past I believe the recommended location is between the mechanical pump and the carburetor. More recently I have located it below the lower engine crossmember tube on a Tiger and looped a hose from the mechanical pump to the transducer and then up to the carburetor on the opposite side (RH side). This requires swapping the plug and fitting at the carb from one side to the other. Two Adel clamps were used to hold the transducer securely to the lower crossmember tube. Locating the transducer near the electric fuel pump and in the outlet line from it seems to result in 2-3 gph higher fuel flow when the electric pump is turned on. I had a recent discussion with EI about reverse flow pulsations due to the check valves in the mechanical pump opening and closing causing minor pulsing reverse rotation of the turbine wheel in the transducer. We also talked about the possibility of RF interference from the electric pump cycling on and off. I then relocated the transducer from this location to the mechanical pump outlet line and further away from the electric pump and solved the problem with flow increase when the electric pump was turned on. I'm not sure which of the two theories was responsible for the change but I suspect it was the former. Cliff A&P/IA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave" Subject: TeamGrumman-List: EDM Fuel Flow Installation in Tiger > --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Dave" > > I've just installed an EDM 700 with fuel flow during annual on my Tiger, I > also rebuilt the fuel selector valve and removed and cleaned the aux pump > filter. > > At run up time, I was unable to pressurize the fuel system with the aux > pump, thinking that having the lines open at the selector valve may be the > problem, I opened the top fitting on the aux pump and poured fuel in to > "prime" the line. The aux pump then pressurized the system but during run > up I only saw 0-2 psi and it was erratic.When idled back, the pressure > dropped to 0 and the engine quit. The aux pump sounds like it is > operating > normally and there are no apparent leaks or other problems. > > To install the EDM fuel flow transmitter, I turned the fitting at the > outlet > of the engine pump pointing up, added an elbow pointed outboard to an 18" > flex line that loops back around to the transmitter, then another flex > line > about 6" long from the transmitter to the carb inlet. > > Before I take everything back apart and install the original hard line > from > the pump to the carb to see if this corrects the problem , does anyone > have > any experience with the EDM installation and how to best route the lines?? > Any thoughts on what may be causing the low/ no pressure will be > appreciated. > > Dave McKnight > Tiger N880DM > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "TeamGrumman-List Digest Server" > > To: "TeamGrumman-List Digest List" > Subject: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 11/19/05 > > >> * >> >> ================================================== >> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive >> ================================================== >> >> Today's complete TeamGrumman-List Digest can also be found in either of >> the >> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted >> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes >> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version >> of the TeamGrumman-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text >> editor >> such as Notepad or with a web browser. >> >> HTML Version: >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list/Digest.TeamGrumman-List.2005-11-19.html >> >> Text Version: >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list/Digest.TeamGrumman-List.2005-11-19.txt >> >> >> ================================================ >> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive >> ================================================ >> >> >> TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive >> --- >> Total Messages Posted Sat 11/19/05: 0 >> >> >> Today's Message Index: >> ---------------------- >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:39 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: EDM Fuel Flow Installation in Tiger --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Dave" Cliff, Thanks for your input. I was on the phone with another mech when your note came. We also were coming to the same conclusion about air in the line downstream of the engine pump due to the fitting turned upwards. I just can't believe that the aux and engine pump both went bad at the same time. I'm also convince the selector valve is not at fault and I've never had to prime the lines before. I'll be re routing the lines to the transducer tomorrow, keeping the lines going down, we'll see how it goes........ Dave McKnight ----- Original Message ----- From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: EDM Fuel Flow Installation in Tiger > --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" > > > If your electric fuel pump only puts out 2 psi pressure I would say that > either there is air in the line or there is something wrong with the pump > as > normal pressure is close to 5 psi. Even without the electric pump running > the engine driven pump should have been able to supply plenty of fuel to > keep the engine running. Something sounds amiss. What does JPI say about > transducer installation and hose routing? I believe that turning the > fitting at the pump upwards is the wrong thing to do as it may be possible > to trap air in a high part of the line. The line should probably be > routed > downhill to the transducer and then upward to the carburetor. > > While I have located the transducer in the line between the electric pump > outlet and the mechanical pump inlet in the past I believe the recommended > location is between the mechanical pump and the carburetor. More recently > I > have located it below the lower engine crossmember tube on a Tiger and > looped a hose from the mechanical pump to the transducer and then up to > the > carburetor on the opposite side (RH side). This requires swapping the > plug > and fitting at the carb from one side to the other. Two Adel clamps were > used to hold the transducer securely to the lower crossmember tube. > > Locating the transducer near the electric fuel pump and in the outlet line > from it seems to result in 2-3 gph higher fuel flow when the electric pump > is turned on. I had a recent discussion with EI about reverse flow > pulsations due to the check valves in the mechanical pump opening and > closing causing minor pulsing reverse rotation of the turbine wheel in the > transducer. We also talked about the possibility of RF interference from > the electric pump cycling on and off. I then relocated the transducer > from > this location to the mechanical pump outlet line and further away from the > electric pump and solved the problem with flow increase when the electric > pump was turned on. I'm not sure which of the two theories was > responsible > for the change but I suspect it was the former. > > Cliff A&P/IA > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave" > To: > Subject: TeamGrumman-List: EDM Fuel Flow Installation in Tiger > > >> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Dave" >> >> I've just installed an EDM 700 with fuel flow during annual on my Tiger, >> I >> also rebuilt the fuel selector valve and removed and cleaned the aux pump >> filter. >> >> At run up time, I was unable to pressurize the fuel system with the aux >> pump, thinking that having the lines open at the selector valve may be >> the >> problem, I opened the top fitting on the aux pump and poured fuel in to >> "prime" the line. The aux pump then pressurized the system but during >> run >> up I only saw 0-2 psi and it was erratic.When idled back, the pressure >> dropped to 0 and the engine quit. The aux pump sounds like it is >> operating >> normally and there are no apparent leaks or other problems. >> >> To install the EDM fuel flow transmitter, I turned the fitting at the >> outlet >> of the engine pump pointing up, added an elbow pointed outboard to an 18" >> flex line that loops back around to the transmitter, then another flex >> line >> about 6" long from the transmitter to the carb inlet. >> >> Before I take everything back apart and install the original hard line >> from >> the pump to the carb to see if this corrects the problem , does anyone >> have >> any experience with the EDM installation and how to best route the >> lines?? >> Any thoughts on what may be causing the low/ no pressure will be >> appreciated. >> >> Dave McKnight >> Tiger N880DM >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "TeamGrumman-List Digest Server" >> >> To: "TeamGrumman-List Digest List" >> >> Subject: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 11/19/05 >> >> >>> * >>> >>> ================================================== >>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive >>> ================================================== >>> >>> Today's complete TeamGrumman-List Digest can also be found in either of >>> the >>> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest >>> formatted >>> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes >>> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version >>> of the TeamGrumman-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text >>> editor >>> such as Notepad or with a web browser. >>> >>> HTML Version: >>> >>> >>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list/Digest.TeamGrumman-List.2005-11-19.html >>> >>> Text Version: >>> >>> >>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list/Digest.TeamGrumman-List.2005-11-19.txt >>> >>> >>> ================================================ >>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive >>> ================================================ >>> >>> >>> TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive >>> --- >>> Total Messages Posted Sat 11/19/05: 0 >>> >>> >>> Today's Message Index: >>> ---------------------- >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:17:21 PM PST US From: TeamGrumman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: EDM Fuel Flow Installation in Tiger --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com I should take some pictures of the installation I do. I use a 21 inch hose (I used the AE3663161G0210 hose from Herber Aircraft in El Segundo, CA) from the T fitting (which was a steel line going from the mechanical pump to the carb) toward the firewall, loop around with the hose resting between the top fitting on the electric pump and the electrical connection to the fuel flow transducer. Then, I use a 4 1/2 inch hose (AE3663161G0044) to the carb. I route the wire to the tranducer along the tach cable, down alondside the left mag, to the transducer. I also replace most of the wire to the electric pump and route it along with the 3 wires to the transducer to the fuel pump. This gets it out of the way for oil changes. As for checking the fuel pressure, run the 21 inch hose from the top fuel hose location on the electric pump directly to the transducer, by-passing the mechanical pump. Then try it. Also, you can use a piece of 1/2 inch clear tubing from a 1 gallon fuel can to the bottom electric fuel pump fitting, this by-passes the entire fuel system. Also, you may need to bleed the air out of the line to the fuel gauge. Air is compressible and you might be in a situation where the pump has an air lock. Which reminds me. Make sure all of the air is out of the fuel pressure line. Gary ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:28:01 PM PST US From: Gil Alexander Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: EDM Fuel Flow Installation in Tiger --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Gil Alexander Gary... why does this make a difference? In the pressure sense line - which has no flow - doesn't the pressure equalize out? Does it matter that air bubble is compressed a bit when the fuel gets 5 psi? ....just wondering ... gil in Tucson >Which reminds me. Make sure all of the air is out of the fuel pressure >line. > >Gary