---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/21/05: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:10 AM - Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists... (Matt Dralle) 2. 12:17 AM - Re: EDM Fuel Flow Installation in Tiger (TeamGrumman@AOL.COM) 3. 12:28 AM - I must be spoiled (TeamGrumman@AOL.COM) 4. 05:39 AM - Re: I must be spoiled (923te) 5. 06:02 AM - Re: EDM Fuel Flow Installation in Tiger (linn walters) 6. 06:23 AM - Re: I must be spoiled (flyv35b) 7. 08:11 AM - Re: EDM Fuel Flow Installation in Tiger (cole@san.rr.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:10:37 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists... --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, Just a reminder that November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Please make a Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade of these great services!! The Contribution Site is fast and easy: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:17:28 AM PST US From: TeamGrumman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: EDM Fuel Flow Installation in Tiger --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com In a message dated 11/20/05 9:28:43 PM, gilalex@earthlink.net writes: > In the pressure sense line - which has no flow - doesn't the pressure > equalize out? > yes, it matters, for the same reason you bleed the brakes. Air is compressible. True, 7 psi isn't a lot, thus, it isn't as critical. BUT, if you get an air bubble in the line, it will block the pressure. Remember vapor locking a carburetor in your 57 Studebaker???? No? I do. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:28:09 AM PST US From: TeamGrumman@AOL.COM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: I must be spoiled --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com A customer has brought in an EI fuel flow set-up for me to install. When I opened the box, I found the indicator, the transducer, the harness (with something like 9 wires!), and 3 pieces of paper that talk about the specs, the warranty, etc. What I didn't get was installation instructions, a wiring diagram, STC paperwork, or the fittings. No wiring diagram. With a cannon plug with 9 wires (I'm guessing at the number of wires, it looks like a lot of wires.) and no wiring diagram, and no installation instructions. Now, with a JPI 450 Fuel Flow (the equivalent), I get all the STC paperwork, the Applicability listing, Installation instructions, the wiring diagram (which, by the way, is power and ground and 3 wires for the transducer), and the proper fittings, PLUS, some fire sleeve to put over the transducer. True, the fire sleeve probably isn't necessary, but it sure makes the package from JPI look a lot more complete and professional. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:53 AM PST US From: "923te" <923te@cox.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: I must be spoiled --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net> Gary, Electronics International (EI) has very detailed instructions. Strange that your customer does not have them. However, they are easily downloaded here: EI has much, much better customer service. Give them a call and compare, (541) 318-6060 Installation Instructions: http://www.buy-ei.com/Manuals/EI%20Fuel%20Flow%20&%20Pressure%20FP-5(L)%20II.pdf Operational; Instructions: http://www.buy-ei.com/Manuals/EI%20Fuel%20Flow%20&%20Pressure%20FP-5(L)%20OI.pdf I would be happy to sell you a JPI 450 in the same condition as your customer provided EI FP-5L. Then you will be comparing apples to apples. Except the quality of the EI far surpasses the JPI and the EI can be equipped with fuel pressure that I beileve is STC'd as primary allowing you to replace the factory fuel psi gauge. EI has STC'd all the gauges required to replace the grumman factory gauges. > A customer has brought in an EI fuel flow set-up for me to install. When I > opened the box, I found the indicator, the transducer, the harness (with > something like 9 wires!), and 3 pieces of paper that talk about the specs, the > warranty, etc. > > What I didn't get was installation instructions, a wiring diagram, STC > paperwork, or the fittings. No wiring diagram. With a cannon plug with 9 wires > (I'm guessing at the number of wires, it looks like a lot of wires.) and no > wiring diagram, and no installation instructions. > > Now, with a JPI 450 Fuel Flow (the equivalent), I get all the STC paperwork, > the Applicability listing, Installation instructions, the wiring diagram > (which, by the way, is power and ground and 3 wires for the transducer), and the > proper fittings, PLUS, some fire sleeve to put over the transducer. True, the > fire sleeve probably isn't necessary, but it sure makes the package from JPI > look a lot more complete and professional. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:56 AM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: EDM Fuel Flow Installation in Tiger --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: linn walters TeamGrumman@AOL.COM wrote: >--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com > > >In a message dated 11/20/05 9:28:43 PM, gilalex@earthlink.net writes: > > > > >>In the pressure sense line - which has no flow - doesn't the pressure >>equalize out? >> >> >> > >yes, it matters, for the same reason you bleed the brakes. Air is >compressible. True, 7 psi isn't a lot, thus, it isn't as critical. BUT, if you get >an air bubble in the line, it will block the pressure. > I tend to disagree. > Remember vapor >locking a carburetor in your 57 Studebaker???? No? I do. > I think this is apples and oranges. In one case we're talking of compressing a bubble in a closed end pipe and the other is the inability of a pump to expel fuel vapor .... that just compresses and expands within the pump. The bubble in the gauge line will also react to pressure pulses in the line, but will still transmit the average fuel pressure that is present at the measuring port. I believe that ALL the bourden tube gauges will have trapped air in them from being installed when new. At least that's how I see it. I also see the trapped air as being beneficial since it dampens the pulses from the fuel pump. If you really want an exercise, place a gauge (with no restrictor) in the line going to the carb and see if you can follow the needle!!! So. I'm still sceptical of the original satement that a bubble in the gauge line would cause erroneous readings. Linn do not archive. > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:28 AM PST US From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: I must be spoiled --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" This may not be the fault of EI. I have installed lots of EI FP-5L fuel flow systems and they come with complete installation and operating instructions, which include a wiring diagram, pin-out diagram for the connector and recommendations on where and how to install the flow transducer. The STC and the FAA approved model list (AML) is also included. Sounds like your customer lost or misplaced 8-1/2x11 blue cover instructions, probably 15 pages or so. If this is not so then EI screwed up and forgot to put it in the box. Give them a call and you'll get the instructions. Cliff A&P/IA ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: TeamGrumman-List: I must be spoiled > --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com > > A customer has brought in an EI fuel flow set-up for me to install. When > I > opened the box, I found the indicator, the transducer, the harness (with > something like 9 wires!), and 3 pieces of paper that talk about the specs, > the > warranty, etc. > > What I didn't get was installation instructions, a wiring diagram, STC > paperwork, or the fittings. No wiring diagram. With a cannon plug with > 9 wires > (I'm guessing at the number of wires, it looks like a lot of wires.) and > no > wiring diagram, and no installation instructions. > > Now, with a JPI 450 Fuel Flow (the equivalent), I get all the STC > paperwork, > the Applicability listing, Installation instructions, the wiring diagram > (which, by the way, is power and ground and 3 wires for the transducer), > and the > proper fittings, PLUS, some fire sleeve to put over the transducer. > True, the > fire sleeve probably isn't necessary, but it sure makes the package from > JPI > look a lot more complete and professional. > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:22 AM PST US From: cole@san.rr.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: EDM Fuel Flow Installation in Tiger --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: cole@san.rr.com I can vouch for what Cliff said about getting readings 2-3 gph higher when the electric pump is on and the transducer is just downstream from the electric pump. Thats where mine was installed for some reason. One of these days Ill have it corrected, but for now its just an annoyance (as far as I know, unless there is some other reason to have it moved sooner than later), since the totalizer shows Ive burned a bit more fuel than I really have since the boost pump is only used for brief periods each flight. Steve K ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:56 PM PST US From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: EDM Fuel Flow Installation in Tiger --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" If your electric fuel pump only puts out 2 psi pressure I would say that either there is air in the line or there is something wrong with the pump as normal pressure is close to 5 psi. Even without the electric pump running the engine driven pump should have been able to supply plenty of fuel to keep the engine running. Something sounds amiss. What does JPI say about transducer installation and hose routing? I believe that turning the fitting at the pump upwards is the wrong thing to do as it may be possible to trap air in a high part of the line. The line should probably be routed downhill to the transducer and then upward to the carburetor. While I have located the transducer in the line between the electric pump outlet and the mechanical pump inlet in the past I believe the recommended location is between the mechanical pump and the carburetor. More recently I have located it below the lower engine crossmember tube on a Tiger and looped a hose from the mechanical pump to the transducer and then up to the carburetor on the opposite side (RH side). This requires swapping the plug and fitting at the carb from one side to the other. Two Adel clamps were used to hold the transducer securely to the lower crossmember tube. Locating the transducer near the electric fuel pump and in the outlet line from it seems to result in 2-3 gph higher fuel flow when the electric pump is turned on. I had a recent discussion with EI about reverse flow pulsations due to the check valves in the mechanical pump opening and closing causing minor pulsing reverse rotation of the turbine wheel in the transducer. We also talked about the possibility of RF interference from the electric pump cycling on and off. I then relocated the transducer from this location to the mechanical pump outlet line and further away from the electric pump and solved the problem with flow increase when the electric pump was turned on. I'm not sure which of the two theories was responsible for the change but I suspect it was the former. Cliff A&P/IA