Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:51 AM - Re: Grumman strength (David Feinstein)
2. 08:23 AM - 76 Tiger For Sale (flyv35b)
3. 09:29 AM - Re: Re: Grumman strength (flyv35b)
4. 10:27 AM - Re: Re: Grumman strength (Gil Alexander)
5. 10:53 AM - Re: Re: Grumman strength (FLYaDIVE@AOL.COM)
6. 11:23 AM - Re: 76 Tiger For Sale (TeamGrumman@AOL.COM)
7. 11:25 AM - Re: Re: Grumman strength (TeamGrumman@AOL.COM)
8. 12:46 PM - Re: 76 Tiger For Sale (flyv35b)
9. 06:44 PM - Re: 76 Tiger For Sale (James Courtney)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Grumman strength |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "David Feinstein" <david@carneyaviation.com>
I said:
# In outer space, you could go VERY fast (TAS). IAS (or EAS) would
# be zero, and there wouldn't be any structural damage out there.
You said:
# Sure there would be structural damage "out there". Why do you
# think there would not be?
Well, it wouldn't come from any aerodynamic force at zero IAS, which is what
we were talking about (the thread concerns Vne). Where do you think the
damage would come from?
Message 2
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| Subject: | 76 Tiger For Sale |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com>
A good friend of mine (Bill Marvel) is selling his 1976 Tiger after 29 years of
ownership to build an
RV-10 (he previously built and owns an RV-8A). The details are shown on his website
along with contact information. I have flown in the plane several times
(IFR) and it is a good solid plane that is flown IFR regularly and has been well
maintained. It has a high time engine and is priced accordingly. This will
allow the new owner to do exactly what he or she wants with the engine.
http://members.cox.net/bmarvel/tigerforsale
Cliff A&P/IA
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Grumman strength |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com>
Actually, design dive speed (Vd) is based on design cruise speed (Vc) and is
arrived at first and then Vne is typically 0.9Vd. It's Vd that establishes
the upper end of the flight envelope. The aircraft has to be able to
withstand the limit load of 3.8 g's (standard category) at Vd! How
comfortable would you feel flying a Tiger at 222mph and pulling 3.8 g's?
I have not found anyone else or anything written (yet) that substantiates
Ken Krueger's (Van's engineer) theory about limiting Vne to TAS to preclude
the possibility of flutter. The FAA certainly doesn't buy into this theory.
Cliff A&P/IA
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Feinstein" <david@carneyaviation.com>
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 2:39 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Grumman strength
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "David Feinstein"
> <david@carneyaviation.com>
>
> # Certified aircraft are required (FAR Part 23) to be dive tested
> # (design dive speed) to 10% above what the manufacture sets as
> # Vne. For the Tiger that would amount to about 220 mph. As far
> # as I can determine this is and has always been based on IAS.
>
> It's based on Equivalent Airspeed (23.335), which is essentially the same
> thing as IAS for a Tiger (almost no calibration error).
>
> # But read the article by Van's chief engineer about their "theory"
> # that Vne is and should be based on TAS.
>
> Wonder why. In outer space, you could go VERY fast (TAS). IAS (or EAS)
> would
> be zero, and there wouldn't be any structural damage out there.
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Grumman strength |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
>
>I have not found anyone else or anything written (yet) that substantiates
>Ken Krueger's (Van's engineer) theory about limiting Vne to TAS to preclude
>the possibility of flutter. The FAA certainly doesn't buy into this theory.
>
>Cliff A&P/IA
Cliff... when my German sailplane was certified after being in the country
10 years (a Mini-Nimbus), one of the modifications required was a marking
of different redlines (Vne) on the ASI depending on altitude.
Isn't this the FAA requiring TAS to be accounted for, rather than IAS?
... and with long, flexible wings, flutter is usually the failure mode at
high speed.
gil in Tucson
PS Found the manual figures... New red marks required on the ASI for
Certification
Alt. (ft.) Vne (kts)
10,000 135
20,000 120
33,000 96
http://www.schempp-hirth.com/tmdocs/328-6-1427.pdf
PPS I left the sailplane "Experimental - Exhibition and Racing" - no
advantage to Standard airworthiness for a sailplane - only 1 US owner
changed his AW certificate,and that Mini-Nimbus is for rent at Minden, NV.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Grumman strength |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 4/7/06 11:55:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 923te@cox.net
writes:
> Just put the spacecraft in a spin/tumble that generates 100G's and see
what
> happens....that is after you scrape the pilots blood and other body parts
> off of the inside walls of the craft......
===============================
Sorry ... You NEED GRAVITY to generate G's!
Remember everything in and on a space craft is moving at the same speed. The
ONLY way to stop the spacecraft movement is with use of retro rockets. Or
have another spacecraft push or pull it in the opposite direction. "A body in
motion tends to remain in motion unless acted upon by an equal and opposite
force."
Matter of fact ... Since there is NO AIR in space how do you expect the
control services to work? They are just along for the ride. Replace control
surfaces with retro rockets.
Remember how Buzz moved around in space? He used compressed air. I think it
was Buzz?
See what happens when you watch too much Star Trek ... Science become
fleeting.
Barry
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 76 Tiger For Sale |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com
In a message dated 4/8/06 8:24:08 AM, flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com writes:
> A good friend of mine (Bill Marvel) is selling his 1976 Tiger after 29
>
It's about $15 to $20K too much for it's current condition. High time
airframe, High time engine, outdated/obsolete avionics. For 35 to 40K it would
be
a good first plane for someone. The interior looks original. A 76 has no
corrosion proofing in the wings and it probably has purple glue.
FWF alone would cost about 20K for Bill's plane. With a new engine, it
still isn't worth 80K with over 4000 TT on the airframe and basic avionics.
I bought my Tiger 18 months ago for 60K. 1115 TTAF/E, painted in '97, basic
avionics, autopilot. prices haven't gone up that much, if at all.
Jamey is asking $97,000 for his '79 Tiger with 1000 TTAF, new Lycoming
cylinders prepared by LyCon, new paint, leather interior, full Garmin avionics
stack.
Gary
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Grumman strength |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com
In a message dated 4/8/06 9:30:29 AM, flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com writes:
> I have not found anyone else or anything written (yet) that substantiates
> Ken Krueger's (Van's engineer) theory about limiting Vne to TAS to preclude
> the possibility of flutter.=A0 The FAA certainly doesn't buy into this theory.
>
The flight test engineering books from the Air Force don't do it using TAS
either. But, what do they know.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 76 Tiger For Sale |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com>
Hey, I didn't set the price and I'm not trying to sell it at that price of
justify the price. Personally, I think it is to high also, but not $20K to
high, more like $10K.
While we are throwing numbers around, you could do a good engine overhaul
for $20K firewall forward - the hoses don't need to be replaced and the
baffling doesn't need much work. The plane was repainted in 97 and $5000
would do a pretty decent interior. The KX-155/GS is useable as a 2nd
Nav/Com as well as the GX55 GPS, so another $10K would buy a used Garmin 530
and result in pretty nice avionics. That's $35K on top of $50K say for a
total of $85K. How does that compare to Jamey's Tiger at $97K with 1000
SMOH on the engine, albeit new cylinders? Obviously, the 76 model year and
4000 TT is a factor, but most of that time has been cross country flying.
Probably no more landings than a 1000 hr plane that is used for instruction
and rental.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: <TeamGrumman@aol.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: 76 Tiger For Sale
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com
>
>
> In a message dated 4/8/06 8:24:08 AM, flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com writes:
>
>
>> A good friend of mine (Bill Marvel) is selling his 1976 Tiger after 29
>>
>
> It's about $15 to $20K too much for it's current condition. High time
> airframe, High time engine, outdated/obsolete avionics. For 35 to 40K it
> would be
> a good first plane for someone. The interior looks original. A 76 has
> no
> corrosion proofing in the wings and it probably has purple glue.
>
> FWF alone would cost about 20K for Bill's plane. With a new engine, it
> still isn't worth 80K with over 4000 TT on the airframe and basic
> avionics.
>
> I bought my Tiger 18 months ago for 60K. 1115 TTAF/E, painted in '97,
> basic
> avionics, autopilot. prices haven't gone up that much, if at all.
>
> Jamey is asking $97,000 for his '79 Tiger with 1000 TTAF, new Lycoming
> cylinders prepared by LyCon, new paint, leather interior, full Garmin
> avionics
> stack.
>
> Gary
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | 76 Tiger For Sale |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "James Courtney" <jamey@jamescourtney.net>
Can't we all just get along and someone buy my plane;)
Jamey
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of flyv35b
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: 76 Tiger For Sale
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b"
--> <flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com>
Hey, I didn't set the price and I'm not trying to sell it at that price of
justify the price. Personally, I think it is to high also, but not $20K to
high, more like $10K.
While we are throwing numbers around, you could do a good engine overhaul
for $20K firewall forward - the hoses don't need to be replaced and the
baffling doesn't need much work. The plane was repainted in 97 and $5000
would do a pretty decent interior. The KX-155/GS is useable as a 2nd
Nav/Com as well as the GX55 GPS, so another $10K would buy a used Garmin 530
and result in pretty nice avionics. That's $35K on top of $50K say for a
total of $85K. How does that compare to Jamey's Tiger at $97K with 1000
SMOH on the engine, albeit new cylinders? Obviously, the 76 model year and
4000 TT is a factor, but most of that time has been cross country flying.
Probably no more landings than a 1000 hr plane that is used for instruction
and rental.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: <TeamGrumman@aol.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: 76 Tiger For Sale
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com
>
>
> In a message dated 4/8/06 8:24:08 AM, flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com
> writes:
>
>
>> A good friend of mine (Bill Marvel) is selling his 1976 Tiger after
>> 29
>>
>
> It's about $15 to $20K too much for it's current condition. High time
> airframe, High time engine, outdated/obsolete avionics. For 35 to 40K it
> would be
> a good first plane for someone. The interior looks original. A 76 has
> no
> corrosion proofing in the wings and it probably has purple glue.
>
> FWF alone would cost about 20K for Bill's plane. With a new engine, it
> still isn't worth 80K with over 4000 TT on the airframe and basic
> avionics.
>
> I bought my Tiger 18 months ago for 60K. 1115 TTAF/E, painted in '97,
> basic
> avionics, autopilot. prices haven't gone up that much, if at all.
>
> Jamey is asking $97,000 for his '79 Tiger with 1000 TTAF, new Lycoming
> cylinders prepared by LyCon, new paint, leather interior, full Garmin
> avionics
> stack.
>
> Gary
>
>
>
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