Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:35 AM - Re: Re: flap flap again (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
2. 05:26 AM - AYA Convention (HalB)
3. 07:33 AM - Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 04/15/06 (Bigbajon@aol.com)
4. 07:58 AM - Re: Cracks in aft fuselage stiffeners (flyv35b)
5. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: flap flap again (James Courtney)
6. 12:09 PM - Re: AYA Convention (TeamGrumman@aol.com)
7. 12:12 PM - Re: Cracks in aft fuselage stiffeners (TeamGrumman@AOL.COM)
8. 12:15 PM - Re: Re: flap flap again (TeamGrumman@AOL.COM)
9. 12:32 PM - Re: Re: flap flap again (flyv35b)
10. 10:21 PM - Re: Re: flap flap again (James Courtney)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: flap flap again |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 4/15/06 2:54:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
TeamGrumman@aol.com writes:
> Ken (LyCon) Tunnel's daughter was killed in a C-150 trying to climb out with
> full flaps. She spun it into the ground from about 300 feet. Maybe a
> plane
> CAN climb with full flaps. But, WHY?
========================
About 7 years ago, there was an accident at Linden AP (KLDJ), NJ when an
instructor took up a professional photographer for a photo shoot, it was in a
C-150 or 152. During take off the photographer moved his camera bag onto his lap
... This pressed down the flap switch (which is panel located in front of the
copilot) to the full flap down position. The plane attained a few 100 feet
and then stalled and crashed on the departure end of the runway. There were
lucky things that day:
1 - No one was killed.
2 - The plane did not make it off the airport. A couple of 100 feet after
the end of the runway is a major road, Route 1. Right next to the road was a
gas station. Across the street is the Chrysler Assembly Plant.
RULE: Cockpit Clean - Manage your cockpit resources. And brief your
passengers and CoPilot!
To help me in my briefing I have a -
Placard for the CoPilot:
1 - Don't say anything
2 - Don't touch anything
And I rule I keep in mind:
CoPilot - Just another damn gage to watch!
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 2
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--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "HalB" <halb@adelphia.net>
For those on this list that do not watch the Grumman Gang List I just wanted to
let you now about our tour of ECI .
For those interested there will be tour of ECI Engine Components Inc.on Wed. 12
July, These are the folks that make parts for our Engines and especially good
cylinder kits (IMHO) :)
The tour will start at 1:30pm and last about 1.5 to 3.0 hours depending on how
many people sign up, the max number is 90 people.The tour is FREE, how ever you
may have to help out with transportation to San Antonio (about a 1hr and 20
min ride each way). The convention chair is in support of the trip and the details
on the transportation is pending.There will be some refreshments provided
by ECI upon arrival and some freebees may also show up. (hats etc) and no they
are not going to give us a set of cylinders and believe me I tried to get them
to.
SO if you think you might like a ECI factory tour please let me know so I can
get the numbers for ECI. They are looking forward to us visiting there factory
and are proud of what they produce.
Looking Forward to Seeing Yall at the AYA Convention and hoping for a good turnout
for the ECI Tour.
Remember : Let Me Know :}
Hal Beauchesne (Bo shane)
Tiger N920GT
(334) 347-7360 home (334)-301-9641 cell
Enterprise, AL.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 04/15/06 |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Bigbajon@aol.com
Had a Musketeer (160 horse) & only tried to climb once with full flaps.
Decided to go around on a ~ short turf strip with trees ona end when it became
clear that I was way long on the landing point.
It was my first attempt at climbing with full flaps on that model (didn't
have much choice..) & not much was happening. (remember thinking.. wtf).
There was no time to even consider reducing flaps to half as the trees were
looming.
Ended up ina box with no options but to pull back ona yoke, however amount
it took, at whatever the speed was..& ended up.. just cleared the trees.
POH sez nothing about climbing with full flaps, on that model; also no
speed #'s..IOW..you on you own.. Does mention the use of half flaps, to get off
(the ground) a turf strip quicker but then recommends no flaps for climbout.
Fella that owned the plane before me mentioned he favored yankin at the
flaps (johnson bar on this model) at a certain speed to 'jump' into the air
(forget the details)..but nothing in the POH about it but understand that others
use this method.
Imo, generally, more power for a given weight results in a better climb
capability, if using flaps & always good to see that info in a POH.
jon
In a message dated 4/16/2006 3:03:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
teamgrumman-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "David Feinstein"
> <david@carneyaviation.com>
>
> # I'd be pretty surprised to fly a plane that didn't climb with
> # flaps deployed.
>
> It's a certification requirement: 14 CFR 23.77-a-3
> Don't know what rules apply to experimentals.
>
>
Are there common aircraft in anyone's experience that will
not climb under near standard conditions with flaps deployed?
Jamey
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Cracks in aft fuselage stiffeners |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com>
I don't really think the buckling is typical. Out of all the planes I have
looked at (maybe 20) I have only seen one that had any buckling and it was
less than what Gil has pictured. It also had some tail damage and was most
likely backed into a hangar wall, etc. This is what I think causes this
particular buckling, i.e., a horizontal load applied to the end or near the
end of the horizontal stabilizer.
If you put your hand inside the fuselage up in the corner near the top of
the vertical angle and the horizontal ELT mounting bulkhead you will feel
quite a bit of flexing and movement when someone pushes a little bit (20 lb.
at the most) on the end of the stabilizer in a horizontal direction.
What I have noticed in numerous planes is a small crack propagating out of
the radius for the small tab that is bent horizontally and riveted to the
ELT bulkhead at the top corner of the vertical angle. I think this crack is
due to the flexing and a stress concentration in this area. I cannot see
any real structural significance to this small crack and I doubt if it will
continue to propagate. If the vertical angle was not attached to the ELT
bulkhead with this small tab I don't think the crack would occur. The
vertical angles are bonded full length to the fuselage side skin and can
transfer vertical loads from the front spar of the stabilizer due normal
vertical loading but are not intended for the flange to be bent fore and
aft from a horizontal load resulting from the stabilizer hitting something
way out at the tip.
The other loading is a torsional load from a large rudder deflection, maybe
at high speed possibly, that is input at the rear bulkhead where the
vertical spar attaches and tends to twist the fuselage. This is possibly
what might cause cracking of the vertical and horizontal angles where they
overlap, although hitting the tail on something might cause this as well.
At any rate these are very thin angles and wouldn't seem to offer much
support for the "box" section compared to a real bulkhead with both OD and
ID flanges like you typically see on fuselage bulkheads.
I don't see that anything is really accomplished by removing the vertical
angles and bonding and riveting on new angles other than to just replace
parts that cannot be straightened. Adding another doubler angle to the
existing one and maybe a formed corner doubler would seem to strengthen the
corners and the box much better and be easier to accomplish. But what do I
know since I'm not an aeronautical or structural engineer (just a BSME and
A&P).
Cliff A&P/IA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gil Alexander" <gilalex@earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cracks in aft fuselage stiffeners
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Gil Alexander
> <gilalex@earthlink.net>
>
> Example can be seen here...
>
> I believe my buckling is typical and follows what Gary describes.
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~gilalex/Tiger/
>
> However, my horizontal showed some hangar rash and denting, and the tail
> tie down ring was bent back a bit.
>
> Excess loads could have come from other sources than the one Gary
> mentions...
>
> It was repaired (?) by replacement of the stiffeners per the SAIB, but
> since no-one really knows what did it, can it be called fixed?
>
> It will be interesting to see if any of the repaired ones buckle a second
> time.....
>
> gil in Tucson
>
>
>>I've seen a lot of the horizontal stiffeners buckled. I have only seen
>>one
>>with a crack in it. Do I think it's a big problem? No. Do I think
>>debonding, removing and then replacing the the same pieces is the right
>>approach?
>>No. Do I think adding a double that is radiused in the corner and
>>transmits
>>the load the the entire portion of the tail assembly is a better
>>idea? Well,
>>yes, that's why I want to do it. If the DER and structural engineer
>>agree,
>>I'll do it.
>>
>>Gary
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: flap flap again |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "James Courtney" <jamey@jamescourtney.net>
I'm certainly not advocating the practice but having gone around in a DA-20,
C172, AA5B, and BE36 as part of flight training now all at some point from a
full flap configuration all of these has offered a definite full-flap
positive rate of climb as power was applied and prior to retracting flaps
though nothing near the appropriate climb configuration. It just seemed odd
to me that a small light aircraft where people and particularly students
would predictably be transitioning from a full-flap landing configuration to
a full-power climb on a go around would lack the ability to climb with the
flaps out.
My problem now is that I got used to using flaps only when needed for
landing the Tiger (if I was high/fast or what not) but with the A36 I'm
seldom high/fast with the gear out and prop flattenend out so I totally
forget to deploy the flaps. I need to do that more as it lowers the nose,
particularly with stuff in the back seats and actually does improve
low-speed behavior. This and I had the nav-lights on yesterday in the 36
(cruddy weather so I flipped the strobes, landing, nav-lights on) but this
dims the 3-position gear lights to the point of being undetectable in
daylight which caused me to go around at Hollister before I thought to cup
my hand carefully over the lights and really take a close look. Now no nav
lights unless at night for me. Still learning:)
Jamey
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
TeamGrumman@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: flap flap again
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com
In a message dated 4/15/06 6:38:04 AM, flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com writes:
> To answer Jamey's question I would be surprised if a Cessan 150 can
> climb with it's big flaps fully lowered.=A0 If so, it's not much and
> probably won't meet the FAR 23 requirements, but then it was not
> certified under part 23. Also, there are a lot of planes that won't
> climb at higher density altitudes with the flaps lowered.
>
Ken (LyCon) Tunnel's daughter was killed in a C-150 trying to climb out with
full flaps. She spun it into the ground from about 300 feet. Maybe a
plane
CAN climb with full flaps. But, WHY?
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: AYA Convention |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com
I toured ECI sometime in the early 90's. Very impressive setup.
Gary
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Cracks in aft fuselage stiffeners |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com
In a message dated 4/16/06 7:58:46 AM, flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com writes:
> f the vertical angle was not attached to the ELT
> bulkhead with this small tab I don't think the crack would occur.=A0
>
You are absolutely right. The stupid little tab is TOO small. That entire
ELT plate should be attached to the vertical angles. The corners should be
radiused. The DER and I came up with a radius of 3 inches for the corner
doublers.
Gary
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: flap flap again |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com
In a message dated 4/16/06 8:40:42 AM, jamey@jamescourtney.net writes:
> My problem now is that I got used to using flaps only when needed for
> landing the Tiger (if I was high/fast or what not) but with the A36 I'm
> seldom high/fast with the gear out and prop flattenend out so I totally
> forget to deploy the flaps.=A0
>
I always land with full flaps, in any wind. Flying into Lancaster one must
learn how to fly with a lot of nasty cross winds. I found full flaps were
nice for shortening the landing roll. I could exit off Bravo taxiway most=20of
the time in winds over 30 mph.
Gary
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: flap flap again |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com>
> My problem now is that I got used to using flaps only when needed for
> landing the Tiger (if I was high/fast or what not) but with the A36 I'm
> seldom high/fast with the gear out and prop flattenend out so I totally
> forget to deploy the flaps. I need to do that more as it lowers the nose,
> particularly with stuff in the back seats and actually does improve
> low-speed behavior. This and I had the nav-lights on yesterday in the 36
> (cruddy weather so I flipped the strobes, landing, nav-lights on) but this
> dims the 3-position gear lights to the point of being undetectable in
> daylight which caused me to go around at Hollister before I thought to cup
> my hand carefully over the lights and really take a close look. Now no
> nav
> lights unless at night for me. Still learning:)
Not to mention the significant reduction in stall speed with flaps down in
the Bonanza. If you ever go into a short field, say 1800 ft, you definitely
are going to want the flaps down, probably all the way. I almost always
land with full flaps in the Bonanza as I do in any of the Grummans. Turning
on the nav lights does dim the gear warning lights and I have also had to
look twice to see if they are on even at dusk with the nav lights on. Under
normal circumstances I think it is a good idea to land with flaps in all
airplanes, unless their is some overriding reason not to.
Cliff
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: flap flap again |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "James Courtney" <jamey@jamescourtney.net>
We get a lot of x-wind at KSQL and so I frequently don't use flaps in the
Grumman but as you say, may as well use them in whatever plane if conditions
are favorable and save the brakes:)
Jamey
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of flyv35b
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: flap flap again
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b"
--> <flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com>
> My problem now is that I got used to using flaps only when needed for
> landing the Tiger (if I was high/fast or what not) but with the A36
> I'm seldom high/fast with the gear out and prop flattenend out so I
> totally forget to deploy the flaps. I need to do that more as it
> lowers the nose, particularly with stuff in the back seats and
> actually does improve low-speed behavior. This and I had the
> nav-lights on yesterday in the 36 (cruddy weather so I flipped the
> strobes, landing, nav-lights on) but this dims the 3-position gear
> lights to the point of being undetectable in daylight which caused me
> to go around at Hollister before I thought to cup my hand carefully
> over the lights and really take a close look. Now no nav lights
> unless at night for me. Still learning:)
Not to mention the significant reduction in stall speed with flaps down in
the Bonanza. If you ever go into a short field, say 1800 ft, you definitely
are going to want the flaps down, probably all the way. I almost always
land with full flaps in the Bonanza as I do in any of the Grummans. Turning
on the nav lights does dim the gear warning lights and I have also had to
look twice to see if they are on even at dusk with the nav lights on. Under
normal circumstances I think it is a good idea to land with flaps in all
airplanes, unless their is some overriding reason not to.
Cliff
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