Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:10 AM - Re: oil cooler issues (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
2. 04:15 AM - Re: prop pitch question (FLYaDIVE@AOL.COM)
3. 04:38 AM - Re: prop pitch question (Bruce Smith)
4. 06:20 AM - Re: prop pitch question (flyv35b)
5. 06:56 AM - Re: prop pitch question (flyv35b)
6. 07:58 AM - Re: Aft fuselage cracks (flyv35b)
7. 09:20 AM - Re: prop pitch question (Steve Roberts)
8. 11:16 AM - Re: prop pitch question (TeamGrumman@aol.com)
9. 06:06 PM - Re: oil cooler issues (Stephen Stinis)
10. 07:12 PM - Re: prop pitch question (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
11. 10:06 PM - Re: oil cooler issues (TeamGrumman@aol.com)
12. 10:31 PM - Re: prop pitch question (TeamGrumman@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: oil cooler issues |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 4/20/06 12:54:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, stinis@cox.net
writes:
> Climbing out at 70kts, 85 degrees outside
> through 8500 ft. the oil temp reached 230 degrees at maximum. Upon level
> flight, it would cruise around 215 degrees. Upon landing it was around
190
> degrees. Does this seem normal?
>
> Thanks again for your help.
>
> Stephen
========================
Stephen:
The oil temps do seem just a slight bit high. I don't care for the 230 on
climb or the 215 in cruise or even the 190 on decent.
You mentioned an EI gage, it sounded like the gage was for Cylinder Temps not
oil, does it also do Oil Temps?
What color is your oil?
How long does it take to turn BLACK?
What are the compression's on the cylinders?
Playing Doctor over the Internet is difficult. Ya loose out on all the
touch'y - feel'y stuff. At this point I t would really be helpfull to examine
the
baffeling and associated air flow.
You said you looked at the Vernatherm, but you did not mention anything about
the ware marks. They are a huge giveaway to problems.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: prop pitch question |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
Steve:
ALL PROPS have different pitches at different stations along their length.
This is not a speed mod or a magic dust trick.
The only trick in picking a pitch is to go has high as you can without
failing the ground static check.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
============================
In a message dated 4/20/06 12:54:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aa1bflyboy@msn.com writes:
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Steve Roberts" <aa1bflyboy@msn.com>
>
> Has anyone evr done this with a prop for an AA1x model?
>
> Steve Roberts - AA-1B N9664L @ ILG
>
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com
>
>
> In a message dated 4/19/06 5:08:00 AM, bruce.smith@york.com writes:
>
>
> > 64 (first third, near the hub) - 62 (middle) - 60 (tip).
> And, I should have said you'll get back about 150 rpm for climb.
>
> A certain someone I know had one of the new Cheetah Sensenich props
pitched 63-62-61, gained 200 fpm rate of climb AND gained 2 knots. But, he was
> able to run WAY over redline at 7500 feet. Now, he can turn redline at
9000
> feet.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: prop pitch question |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Bruce Smith <bruce.smith@york.com>
Barry,
I thought this was the case, but had never heard it expressed in this
manner. It was always that this Tiger has X pitch or this Cessna has Y
pitch.
Thanks.
Bruce
FLYaDIVE@aol.com said the following on 4/20/2006 7:15 AM:
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
>
> Steve:
>
> ALL PROPS have different pitches at different stations along their length.
> This is not a speed mod or a magic dust trick.
>
> The only trick in picking a pitch is to go has high as you can without
> failing the ground static check.
>
> Barry
> "Chop'd Liver"
> ============================
>
> In a message dated 4/20/06 12:54:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> aa1bflyboy@msn.com writes:
>
>
>> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Steve Roberts" <aa1bflyboy@msn.com>
>>
>> Has anyone evr done this with a prop for an AA1x model?
>>
>> Steve Roberts - AA-1B N9664L @ ILG
>>
>> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 4/19/06 5:08:00 AM, bruce.smith@york.com writes:
>>
>>
>> > 64 (first third, near the hub) - 62 (middle) - 60 (tip).
>> And, I should have said you'll get back about 150 rpm for climb.
>>
>> A certain someone I know had one of the new Cheetah Sensenich props
>>
> pitched 63-62-61, gained 200 fpm rate of climb AND gained 2 knots. But, he
was
>
>> able to run WAY over redline at 7500 feet. Now, he can turn redline at
>>
> 9000
>
>> feet.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: prop pitch question |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com>
Yes there are different blade ANGLES specified for a PARTICULAR pitch at
ever station. What Gary is saying that these specific angles are deviated
from to essentially achieve what would be the angle for a 64" pitch at the
inner third and changing to what would be a 60" pitch angle at the tip.
This is not common and some prop shops simply won't do it, saying they can
legally deviate from the specified angles for a particular pitch.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Smith" <bruce.smith@york.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 4:37 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: prop pitch question
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Bruce Smith <bruce.smith@york.com>
>
> Barry,
>
> I thought this was the case, but had never heard it expressed in this
> manner. It was always that this Tiger has X pitch or this Cessna has Y
> pitch.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bruce
>
> FLYaDIVE@aol.com said the following on 4/20/2006 7:15 AM:
>> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
>>
>> Steve:
>>
>> ALL PROPS have different pitches at different stations along their
>> length.
>> This is not a speed mod or a magic dust trick.
>>
>> The only trick in picking a pitch is to go has high as you can without
>> failing the ground static check.
>>
>> Barry
>> "Chop'd Liver"
>> ============================
>>
>> In a message dated 4/20/06 12:54:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>> aa1bflyboy@msn.com writes:
>>
>>
>>> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Steve Roberts"
>>> <aa1bflyboy@msn.com>
>>>
>>> Has anyone evr done this with a prop for an AA1x model?
>>>
>>> Steve Roberts - AA-1B N9664L @ ILG
>>>
>>> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 4/19/06 5:08:00 AM, bruce.smith@york.com writes:
>>>
>>>
>>> > 64 (first third, near the hub) - 62 (middle) - 60 (tip).
>>> And, I should have said you'll get back about 150 rpm for climb.
>>>
>>> A certain someone I know had one of the new Cheetah Sensenich props
>>>
>> pitched 63-62-61, gained 200 fpm rate of climb AND gained 2 knots.
>> But, he was
>>
>>> able to run WAY over redline at 7500 feet. Now, he can turn redline
>>> at
>>>
>> 9000
>>
>>> feet.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: prop pitch question |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com>
Should have said "they can't legally deviated"
----- Original Message -----
From: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 6:21 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: prop pitch question
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b"
> <flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com>
>
> Yes there are different blade ANGLES specified for a PARTICULAR pitch at
> ever station. What Gary is saying that these specific angles are deviated
> from to essentially achieve what would be the angle for a 64" pitch at the
> inner third and changing to what would be a 60" pitch angle at the tip.
> This is not common and some prop shops simply won't do it, saying they can
> legally deviate from the specified angles for a particular pitch.
>
> Cliff
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce Smith" <bruce.smith@york.com>
> To: <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 4:37 AM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: prop pitch question
>
>
>> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Bruce Smith
>> <bruce.smith@york.com>
>>
>> Barry,
>>
>> I thought this was the case, but had never heard it expressed in this
>> manner. It was always that this Tiger has X pitch or this Cessna has Y
>> pitch.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> FLYaDIVE@aol.com said the following on 4/20/2006 7:15 AM:
>>> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
>>>
>>> Steve:
>>>
>>> ALL PROPS have different pitches at different stations along their
>>> length.
>>> This is not a speed mod or a magic dust trick.
>>>
>>> The only trick in picking a pitch is to go has high as you can without
>>> failing the ground static check.
>>>
>>> Barry
>>> "Chop'd Liver"
>>> ============================
>>>
>>> In a message dated 4/20/06 12:54:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>>> aa1bflyboy@msn.com writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Steve Roberts"
>>>> <aa1bflyboy@msn.com>
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone evr done this with a prop for an AA1x model?
>>>>
>>>> Steve Roberts - AA-1B N9664L @ ILG
>>>>
>>>> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 4/19/06 5:08:00 AM, bruce.smith@york.com writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > 64 (first third, near the hub) - 62 (middle) - 60 (tip).
>>>> And, I should have said you'll get back about 150 rpm for climb.
>>>>
>>>> A certain someone I know had one of the new Cheetah Sensenich props
>>>>
>>> pitched 63-62-61, gained 200 fpm rate of climb AND gained 2 knots.
>>> But, he was
>>>
>>>> able to run WAY over redline at 7500 feet. Now, he can turn
>>>> redline
>>>> at
>>>>
>>> 9000
>>>
>>>> feet.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Aft fuselage cracks |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com>
Gil, what's your phone number?
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gil Alexander" <gilalex@earthlink.net>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Aft fuselage cracks
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Gil Alexander
> <gilalex@earthlink.net>
>
> At 05:06 AM 4/17/2006, you wrote:
>>--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: James Grieco
>><jamesgrieco@yahoo.com>
>>
>>Gary, I can't quite picture where the doublers would go. Are you
>>saying doublers on the skin, internal or external, or gusseting
>>the corners of the stiffeners together?
>>
>>My favorite change would be to make the stiffeners into a frame
>>by either outright replacement, or riveting on angles to form an
>>inner flange. Just about any flange would stop the buckling
>>shown in a recent post.
>
>
> If you look at the frame just ahead of the one in question, you can see it
> has a small (1/4 inch) bent flange on the inside - making the stiffeners
> more U-shaped than L-shaped.
>
> It seems to me that this would stop the buckling seen on my plane, and
> only
> cost 0.01 of a pound...:
> )
>
> gil in Tucson
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: prop pitch question |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Steve Roberts" <aa1bflyboy@msn.com>
Yeah that's what I though too..
Do a lot, get a little;
Do a little, get a lot;
Do nothing, get it all.
Steve Roberts - AA-1B N9664L @ ILG
----Original Message Follows----
From: Bruce Smith <bruce.smith@york.com>
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: prop pitch question
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Bruce Smith <bruce.smith@york.com>
Barry,
I thought this was the case, but had never heard it expressed in this
manner. It was always that this Tiger has X pitch or this Cessna has Y
pitch.
Thanks.
Bruce
FLYaDIVE@aol.com said the following on 4/20/2006 7:15 AM:
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
>
> Steve:
>
> ALL PROPS have different pitches at different stations along their
length.
> This is not a speed mod or a magic dust trick.
>
> The only trick in picking a pitch is to go has high as you can without
> failing the ground static check.
>
> Barry
> "Chop'd Liver"
> ============================
>
> In a message dated 4/20/06 12:54:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> aa1bflyboy@msn.com writes:
>
>
>> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Steve Roberts"
<aa1bflyboy@msn.com>
>>
>> Has anyone evr done this with a prop for an AA1x model?
>>
>> Steve Roberts - AA-1B N9664L @ ILG
>>
>> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 4/19/06 5:08:00 AM, bruce.smith@york.com writes:
>>
>>
>> > 64 (first third, near the hub) - 62 (middle) - 60 (tip).
>> And, I should have said you'll get back about 150 rpm for climb.
>>
>> A certain someone I know had one of the new Cheetah Sensenich props
>>
> pitched 63-62-61, gained 200 fpm rate of climb AND gained 2 knots.
But, he was
>
>> able to run WAY over redline at 7500 feet. Now, he can turn redline
at
>>
> 9000
>
>> feet.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: prop pitch question |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com
In a message dated 4/20/06 4:16:30 AM, FLYaDIVE@AOL.COM writes:
> ALL PROPS have different pitches at different stations along their length.=A0
> This is not a speed mod or a magic dust trick.
>
>
true, and not true.
for a 64" pitch, there are specific angles, in degrees, for each station.
For a 62" pitch likewise. Making an airfoil that conforms to the different
primary pitches, really changes the way the prop performs.
It's used in racing at Reno all the time.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: oil cooler issues |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Stephen Stinis" <stinis@cox.net>
Gary,
What was your outside air temp where you operate. My information was at
full power at maximum climb....Trying to create a worse case scenario.
Sound like my temp is still too high. I don't know what else to do...maybe
your cowling might help?
Stephen
----- Original Message -----
From: <TeamGrumman@aol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: oil cooler issues
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com
>
>
> In a message dated 4/19/06 9:54:25 PM, stinis@cox.net writes:
>
>
>> Climbing out at 70kts, 85 degrees outside
>> through 8500 ft. the oil temp reached 230 degrees at maximum.=A0 Upon
>> level
>> flight, it would cruise around 215 degrees.=A0 Upon landing it was
>> around=20190
>> degrees.=A0 Does this seem normal?
>>
>> Thanks again for your help.
>>
>
> The oil temp, typically, never goes much over 180 to 190 degrees. I have
> a
> digital oil temp sensor and my temp is typlically 180 to 181 under most
> conditions.
>
> Gary
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: prop pitch question |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 4/20/06 2:17:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
TeamGrumman@aol.com writes:
>
>
> > ALL PROPS have different pitches at different stations along their
length.> A0
> > This is not a speed mod or a magic dust trick.
> >
> >
>
> true, and not true.
>
> for a 64" pitch, there are specific angles, in degrees, for each station.
> For a 62" pitch likewise. Making an airfoil that conforms to the
different
> primary pitches, really changes the way the prop performs.
>
> It's used in racing at Reno all the time.
===============================
So ... Isn't that what I said?
Chop'd Liver rides again!
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: oil cooler issues |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com
In a message dated 4/20/06 6:06:38 PM, stinis@cox.net writes:
>
> What was your outside air temp where you operate.=A0 My information was at
> full power at maximum climb....Trying to create a worse case scenario.
> Sound like my temp is still too high.=A0 I don't know what else to do...maybe
> your cowling might help?
>
>
With an OAT of 100+ I run about 190 to 195 oil temp. Climbing to cooler air
helps.
Baffles and larger cooling ramp exits help a lot with high oil temp.
Gary
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: prop pitch question |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com
In a message dated 4/20/06 7:12:51 PM, FLYaDIVE@aol.com writes:
> So ... Isn't that what I said?
>
Oh, hell, I guess. From your understanding of what I said, that is what you
said. Yes, "ALL PROPS have different pitches at different stations along
their length." I don't think you understand the concept of variable twist
along the blade as used by racers with fixed pitch props. That is what I was
talking about. And that is what Cliff was referring to. It really isn't worth
trying to explain.
Let's just say a stock Cheetah Sensenich prop Model 74DM7S10-1.5-61P (61 inch
pitch) on a Cheetah that trues at 128 knots (at 5500 feet and 2650 rpm) and
has trouble pulling over 2700 rpm at 10,000 feet, when given a custom twist
with an average 62 inch pitch across the blade, GAINED 200 fpm rate of climb at
an airport at 2000 AGL, Trues at 132 knots (at 5500 feet and 2650 rpm) and can
still turn 2700 rpm at 10,000 feet, well.....
Anytime something can be done to increase climb rate, increase true airspeed,
and not give up horsepower (RPM) at altitude by over loading the prop, I'd
say that's a magic dust trick.
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