Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:13 AM - Re: Re:High Oil Temps (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
2. 11:52 AM - Re: High Oil Temps (TeamGrumman@aol.com)
3. 12:18 PM - Re: High Oil Temps (Bruce Smith)
4. 12:19 PM - Re: High Oil Temps (flyv35b)
5. 12:19 PM - Re: High Oil Temps (Bruce Smith)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RE:High Oil Temps |
In a message dated 6/12/2006 9:47:38 AM Eastern Standard Time,
airman@appledumplings.com writes:
The temps were around 86F outside.
I have had the airplane for 2 months and have flown about 12
hours ... the problem seems to have come up in the last few hours.
in those 12 hours i have burned 1.5 quarts of oil. So this may be a
contributer that has uncovered the problem. It now has 6.25 quarts.
I have had a few different CFI's in the plane as well as a grumman
pfp cfi. And none of them noticed the higher temps so I dont think
that i just didnt notice it earlier on(although the days were a bit
cooler then).
Thanks Much for inputs
Thomas 74225 D73
=============================================
Thomas:
The oil usage is quite within the operating range. If I add 6.25 + 1.5 =
7.75 Quarts ... That is a FULL load ... You should let the oil try to stabilize,
let it get down to 5.5 to 6.5 quarts and see what the oil consumption is.
Many times when the oil is above 6 quarts and especially around 8 quarts the
engine just pumps the excess oil over board. Check your breather tube it should
NOT be sticking out of the cowl more than 1.25". I find 1" works well.
Look at ALL your baffling or have someone with experience look at it. As an
owner you will become very familiar with what good baffling should look like
since it is the major concern for cooling. Have you flown the plane since the
last time and have you noticed the oil temps?
I once noticed a plane that sat for a few months. It was started, taxied and
had a run-up. The oil temps jumped up to the high 200's during climb out and
for a short time in S&L. Then just as quickly dropped back down to the
normal range of 180 - 190 F.
I attributed this to maybe two things:
1 - Dry metal inside the engine (the oil did not work its way to ALL the
metal to metal contact areas) and
2 - Maybe a stuck Vernatherm.
So lets hear what the latest findings are.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: High Oil Temps |
In a message dated 6/13/06 7:10:51 AM, flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com writes:
> > If you do need to go with new baffles-you might enjoy seeing what a grea
t
> > start the RV-- aircarft baffle can afford!
>
> Absolutely.- But they are very labor intensive to modify and install the
> front baffle ramps/seals and the seal behind the flywheel on a 2 place
> aircraft.- I must have about 60 hr of labor (or more) to install the
> complete set!- But the result is the best baffling I have ever seen on a
ny
> Grumman.- It might even be possible to tailor or custom fit this type of
> baffling to a Cheetah and Tiger and eliminate the entire forward baffling!
> Wouldn't that be nice!
>
>
I recently had the pleasure (sic) of spending an afternoon with the FAA and
a
DER.- The subject was my favorite topic, engine cooling.- Here is what I
was
asked and what I was told.
Question:- Did you change the airflow in the lower cowling?
Answer: (note: I tried to dodge the real question as long as possible)- No
, I
still have approximately the same pressure drop across the cylinders.
Question:- Approximately.- So, the airflow in the lower cowling WAS chan
ged?
Answer: Honestly, I don't know.- (actually, this dialog went on for an hou
r
or so with questions pointed toward the fact that it cools better.)
the next round of Q&A went like this.
Question: If you are cooling better, then that means the air in the lower
cowling is warmer, is that correct.
Answer:- I guess.
Response:- Then we'll need a complete searies of tests with ALL of the
accessories instrumented to determine that they are not overheating.
Comment (me):- Am I to understand that if I do anything to improve the
cooling over what was done at the factory, then I've changed the airflow thr
ough the
cowling, and that requires complete testing of the temps in the lower
cowling?
Answer (FAA):- Yes.
Comment (me):- Even on a stock cowling?- What if I trim a baffle and it
makes
the CHTs more even (lower differential between cylinders) and better cooling
,
then, that is a major modification to the cooling which affects temps in the
lower cowling and that requires complete testing by the FAA?
Answer (FAA):- Yes.
Question (me):- What if the original baffles are no longer available, can
I
make new baffles?
Answer (FAA):- Yes.- But, they must be exact duplicates.- And, you can
't make
them to sell to anyone else without an STC?-
Question (me):- STC?- Why can't I get a PMA to reproduce the parts.
Answer (FAA):- Because the drawings are not owned by you.
This went on for 4 hours.- They (the FAA) are not concerned with improving
anything.- They are only concerned with keeping everything exactly as it w
as
when the plane was made; even if it was never designed correctly in the firs
t
place, the installation was done poorly and there is a better way to do it 3
0
years later.- Unless someone issues an AD.
The bottom line is, the labor intensive installation of the RV baffle kit is
only a fraction of the agony points required to improve the cooling on a
Grumman.
What's wrong with this picture?
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: High Oil Temps |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Bruce Smith <bruce.smith@york.com>
Gary,
This would be funny, if it weren't real life with the FAA. The thing I
take from this is that the FAA isn't interested in safer either. Just
the same.
A kit plane is starting to look really good.
Bruce Smith
TeamGrumman@aol.com said the following on 6/13/2006 2:49 PM:
> In a message dated 6/13/06 7:10:51 AM, flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com
> writes:
>
>> > If you do need to go with new baffles-you might enjoy seeing what a
>> great
>> > start the RV aircarft baffle can afford!
>>
>> Absolutely. But they are very labor intensive to modify and install the
>> front baffle ramps/seals and the seal behind the flywheel on a 2 place
>> aircraft. I must have about 60 hr of labor (or more) to install the
>> complete set! But the result is the best baffling I have ever seen
>> on any
>> Grumman. It might even be possible to tailor or custom fit this type of
>> baffling to a Cheetah and Tiger and eliminate the entire forward
>> baffling!
>> Wouldn't that be nice!
>>
>
>
> I recently had the pleasure (sic) of spending an afternoon with the
> FAA and a DER. The subject was my favorite topic, engine cooling.
> Here is what I was asked and what I was told.
>
> Question: Did you change the airflow in the lower cowling?
> Answer: (note: I tried to dodge the real question as long as
> possible) No, I still have approximately the same pressure drop
> across the cylinders.
> Question: Approximately. So, the airflow in the lower cowling WAS
> changed?
> Answer: Honestly, I don't know. (actually, this dialog went on for an
> hour or so with questions pointed toward the fact that it cools better.)
>
> the next round of Q&A went like this.
>
> Question: If you are cooling better, then that means the air in the
> lower cowling is warmer, is that correct.
> Answer: I guess.
> Response: Then we'll need a complete searies of tests with ALL of the
> accessories instrumented to determine that they are not overheating.
>
> Comment (me): Am I to understand that if I do anything to improve the
> cooling over what was done at the factory, then I've changed the
> airflow through the cowling, and that requires complete testing of the
> temps in the lower cowling?
> Answer (FAA): Yes.
> Comment (me): Even on a stock cowling? What if I trim a baffle and
> it makes the CHTs more even (lower differential between cylinders) and
> better cooling, then, that is a major modification to the cooling
> which affects temps in the lower cowling and that requires complete
> testing by the FAA?
> Answer (FAA): Yes.
>
> Question (me): What if the original baffles are no longer available,
> can I make new baffles?
> Answer (FAA): Yes. But, they must be exact duplicates. And, you
> can't make them to sell to anyone else without an STC?
> Question (me): STC? Why can't I get a PMA to reproduce the parts.
> Answer (FAA): Because the drawings are not owned by you.
>
> This went on for 4 hours. They (the FAA) are not concerned with
> improving anything. They are only concerned with keeping everything
> exactly as it was when the plane was made; even if it was never
> designed correctly in the first place, the installation was done
> poorly and there is a better way to do it 30 years later. Unless
> someone issues an AD.
>
> The bottom line is, the labor intensive installation of the RV baffle
> kit is only a fraction of the agony points required to improve the
> cooling on a Grumman.
>
> What's wrong with this picture?
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: High Oil Temps |
All I have to say is this is very sad! And your conversation with the
FAA shows how inflexible they are and how little common sense there is
and why so many people are gravitating to experimental aircraft. Not to
mention that they are just better in many ways, even though they don't
have the FAA's blessing and haven't been tested as extensively.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: TeamGrumman@aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: High Oil Temps
In a message dated 6/13/06 7:10:51 AM, flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com
writes:
> If you do need to go with new baffles-you might enjoy seeing what
a great
> start the RV aircarft baffle can afford!
Absolutely. But they are very labor intensive to modify and install
the
front baffle ramps/seals and the seal behind the flywheel on a 2
place
aircraft. I must have about 60 hr of labor (or more) to install the
complete set! But the result is the best baffling I have ever seen
on any
Grumman. It might even be possible to tailor or custom fit this
type of
baffling to a Cheetah and Tiger and eliminate the entire forward
baffling!
Wouldn't that be nice!
I recently had the pleasure (sic) of spending an afternoon with the
FAA and a DER. The subject was my favorite topic, engine cooling. Here
is what I was asked and what I was told.
Question: Did you change the airflow in the lower cowling?
Answer: (note: I tried to dodge the real question as long as possible)
No, I still have approximately the same pressure drop across the
cylinders.
Question: Approximately. So, the airflow in the lower cowling WAS
changed?
Answer: Honestly, I don't know. (actually, this dialog went on for an
hour or so with questions pointed toward the fact that it cools better.)
the next round of Q&A went like this.
Question: If you are cooling better, then that means the air in the
lower cowling is warmer, is that correct.
Answer: I guess.
Response: Then we'll need a complete searies of tests with ALL of the
accessories instrumented to determine that they are not overheating.
Comment (me): Am I to understand that if I do anything to improve the
cooling over what was done at the factory, then I've changed the airflow
through the cowling, and that requires complete testing of the temps in
the lower cowling?
Answer (FAA): Yes.
Comment (me): Even on a stock cowling? What if I trim a baffle and
it makes the CHTs more even (lower differential between cylinders) and
better cooling, then, that is a major modification to the cooling which
affects temps in the lower cowling and that requires complete testing by
the FAA?
Answer (FAA): Yes.
Question (me): What if the original baffles are no longer available,
can I make new baffles?
Answer (FAA): Yes. But, they must be exact duplicates. And, you
can't make them to sell to anyone else without an STC?
Question (me): STC? Why can't I get a PMA to reproduce the parts.
Answer (FAA): Because the drawings are not owned by you.
This went on for 4 hours. They (the FAA) are not concerned with
improving anything. They are only concerned with keeping everything
exactly as it was when the plane was made; even if it was never designed
correctly in the first place, the installation was done poorly and there
is a better way to do it 30 years later. Unless someone issues an AD.
The bottom line is, the labor intensive installation of the RV baffle
kit is only a fraction of the agony points required to improve the
cooling on a Grumman.
What's wrong with this picture?
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: High Oil Temps |
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Bruce Smith <bruce.smith@york.com>
Gary,
One other thing. Let me surmise that the FAA types said this with
serious looks on their faces. Right?
Bruce
TeamGrumman@aol.com said the following on 6/13/2006 2:49 PM:
> In a message dated 6/13/06 7:10:51 AM, flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com
> writes:
>
>> > If you do need to go with new baffles-you might enjoy seeing what a
>> great
>> > start the RV aircarft baffle can afford!
>>
>> Absolutely. But they are very labor intensive to modify and install the
>> front baffle ramps/seals and the seal behind the flywheel on a 2 place
>> aircraft. I must have about 60 hr of labor (or more) to install the
>> complete set! But the result is the best baffling I have ever seen
>> on any
>> Grumman. It might even be possible to tailor or custom fit this type of
>> baffling to a Cheetah and Tiger and eliminate the entire forward
>> baffling!
>> Wouldn't that be nice!
>>
>
>
> I recently had the pleasure (sic) of spending an afternoon with the
> FAA and a DER. The subject was my favorite topic, engine cooling.
> Here is what I was asked and what I was told.
>
> Question: Did you change the airflow in the lower cowling?
> Answer: (note: I tried to dodge the real question as long as
> possible) No, I still have approximately the same pressure drop
> across the cylinders.
> Question: Approximately. So, the airflow in the lower cowling WAS
> changed?
> Answer: Honestly, I don't know. (actually, this dialog went on for an
> hour or so with questions pointed toward the fact that it cools better.)
>
> the next round of Q&A went like this.
>
> Question: If you are cooling better, then that means the air in the
> lower cowling is warmer, is that correct.
> Answer: I guess.
> Response: Then we'll need a complete searies of tests with ALL of the
> accessories instrumented to determine that they are not overheating.
>
> Comment (me): Am I to understand that if I do anything to improve the
> cooling over what was done at the factory, then I've changed the
> airflow through the cowling, and that requires complete testing of the
> temps in the lower cowling?
> Answer (FAA): Yes.
> Comment (me): Even on a stock cowling? What if I trim a baffle and
> it makes the CHTs more even (lower differential between cylinders) and
> better cooling, then, that is a major modification to the cooling
> which affects temps in the lower cowling and that requires complete
> testing by the FAA?
> Answer (FAA): Yes.
>
> Question (me): What if the original baffles are no longer available,
> can I make new baffles?
> Answer (FAA): Yes. But, they must be exact duplicates. And, you
> can't make them to sell to anyone else without an STC?
> Question (me): STC? Why can't I get a PMA to reproduce the parts.
> Answer (FAA): Because the drawings are not owned by you.
>
> This went on for 4 hours. They (the FAA) are not concerned with
> improving anything. They are only concerned with keeping everything
> exactly as it was when the plane was made; even if it was never
> designed correctly in the first place, the installation was done
> poorly and there is a better way to do it 30 years later. Unless
> someone issues an AD.
>
> The bottom line is, the labor intensive installation of the RV baffle
> kit is only a fraction of the agony points required to improve the
> cooling on a Grumman.
>
> What's wrong with this picture?
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