---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 11/10/06: 3 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 10:13 PM - Wiki... (Matt Dralle) 1. 10:23 AM - Re: cowling update (teamgrumman@aol.com) 2. 11:00 AM - Cowling Update (teamgrumman@AOL.COM) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 10:13:18 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Wiki... Dear Listers, I added a new Wiki web site to the Matronics Email List features earlier this year. What's a Wiki, you ask? Well, here's the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki) definition: A wiki (IPA: [ w .ki ] or [ wi .ki ] ) is a type of Web site that allows the visitors themselves to easily add, remove, and otherwise edit and change some available content, sometimes without the need for registration. This ease of interaction and operation makes a wiki an effective tool for collaborative authoring. The term wiki also can refer to the collaborative software itself (wiki engine) that facilitates the operation of such a Web site, or to certain specific wiki sites, including the computer science site (an original wiki), WikiWikiWeb, and on-line encyclopedias such as Wikipedia. Under the Matronics Email List Moniker, there is now a very nice List-specific Wiki available! It a place for Listers to put articles about any aviation topic that suits them. The purpose is to provide what the mailing lists do not: structure and persistence. The mailing lists are a fantastic resource to ask a question and get good (and bad and funny and annoying) answers. But once the question is asked and answered it is not in front of the List anymore. If a new person subscribes the next day, he/she does not see that information unless he/she goes to the trouble to search the archives, a hit or miss proposition. The result is that the same thread of conversation gets created and/or revisited. There are several things that happen as a result: 1. The person gets his or her question answered; 2. The information gets better as more people think about and answer the question; 3. The people who have seen the same question asked and answered get annoyed at seeing the same things over and over and over and ... So this is where the Wiki comes in. You know what questions you wanted answered. You may have asked or answered the question. You know the information is useful. So you put the information here, in the Matronics Email List Wiki! It doesn't matter that this information is 100% complete or correct. Just writing something creates a placeholder and makes useful information available immediately. It has the same immediacy as the mailing list but it has persistence and structure. But what if the information is incomplete or incorrect? No problem! Anyone else coming along can edit the article! If I write something and you discover something I have left out or stated incorrectly, you can fix it right then! So let's begin and make this the place for information about building, flying, maintaining, and understanding our airplanes. But what about whether something is "appropriate" or not? Don't worry. Write it down. Let the reader determine whether or not it is appropriate. If it is, he/she will read it. If it isn't, he/she won't. It's as simple as that. And when you do write that article you won't have to worry about whether some editor is going to decide whether or not to print it in a newsletter or whether the webmaster will have time to put it up on the web page. The last question I hear brewing out there is: if anyone can post anything, won't this just become a mass of garbage? Surprisingly, the answer is a resounding no. If you want proof, go visit the Wikipedia, a free-to-everyone encyclopedia written by whoever wants to write articles. The articles there are as good as anything I have read anywhere and anyone can add anything anytime they want to. So don't hesitate. Write it down. Put it here. It will never hurt anyone. The more information we get here, the more useful it will become to other people and the more information they will put here for YOU to use. Here's the URL to start (there are lots more bured under this starting place): http://www.matronics.com/wiki/index.php/Matronics:Community_Portal But please don't forget that this Wiki and all of the other Matronics Email List features are supported solely by YOUR Contributions!! November is List Fund Raiser month and there are lots of Free Gifts to be had with your qualifying Contribution. Please make a Contribution to support the continued operation and upgrade of these great services!!! Thank you! http://www.matronics.com/contribution Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:23 AM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: cowling update From: teamgrumman@aol.com Mycowling wouldn't fit any engine put on an AA1. I said it would physically fit the AA1. It's way too long for the AA1. What are you fighting on the PF installation? I have a customer who just brought in an AA5 and wants the short stack PF put on it. It seems to me that it's pretty straight forward. I'll be installing it in a few days. As soon as I get the cowling approved for the Tiger, I want to start on the Traveler. Let's see, how long will it take??? My guess is, fitting the cowling, making the baffles, and getting the drawings done will take about a year .... IF I have a plane to work with. Keep in mind, I also need to run a business and make enough money to pay bills as well as push several projects forward ... such as: new wheel pants, new wing tips, fiberglass horizontal root fillets, fiberglass tips for Traveler, Cheetah, and Tiger horizontal tips, Fiberglass rudder tips, and a redesigned fiberglass tail cone. Are you installing the short stack? Gary -----Original Message----- From: aa5_driver@yahoo.com Sent: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 7:19 AM Subject: Re: cowling update Gary, I bet that cowling on an aa1 with an 0320 would be rather quick. What would they require you to do make it legal for the aa5? Since the aa5 does not have the tall front baffle like the cheetah, would it be easier to adapt to the aa5? I have not studied the differences in the 3 front baffles of the series, but know what you are talking about on the cheetah. I think that your air inlets are still smaller than the early aa5 openings. Making the cowling an inch narrower would be great, but I'd bet too costly. I'd agree the modified baffeling would be the way to go. We are fighting the PF install in that the exit is located on a tapered transition. The cheetah and tiger are easier to work with in this area due to the flat exit ramps. Your cowl would eliminate this problem and clean everything up. What kind of time frame would be needed to modify, fit, install, and flight test on an aa5? We'd be very interested to see this get approved for the aa5 sooner than later.... Kevin teamgrumman@aol.com wrote: There is very little difference between the exhaust systems used on the various AA5x applications. The carburetor inlets on the AA5 and AA5A are very different than the carburetor inlet on the AA5B. Even the LoPresti NOSEBOWL is different between the AA5A and AA5B. Physically, the cowling would fit on an AA1. The O320 is also an inch narrower than an O360. That means new baffles, and, of course, a new flight test. The DER suggested I buy an AA5 and spend the required time to trial fit and finalize the required changes to make it fit. For example, the cowling was specifically designed with the Tiger in mind, since that's what I had to work with. That means that the cooling air inlets are sized and shaped to fit the O360. Look at any Cheetah and you'll see a lot more of the front baffles normal (engineer speak for perpendicular to the incoming air flow) to the incoming inlet air than you'll see on a Tiger. This greatly f*cks up the incoming air flow profile. What that means, is that the effective area is a lot smaller than it would be if the flow were allowed to keep expanding upon entering the inlet. Ideally, I should completely redesign the front to narrow the cowling an additional inch at the inlet. What I will do, is minimize the pressure loss by reshaping the baffles to fit the narrower O320. The baffles and inlets are a small, solvable part, of the conversion to the AA5/AA5A. A bigger problem is getting inlet air into the carburetor. The space between the bottom of a stock cowling and the carburetor inlet is not very much. Ask Fred Kokaska. Or John Coze. Both had to fabricate special carb airboxes to fit into the available space. I think that is the primary reason why the Tiger was designed with a rear carb inlet: more room for a well designed inlet. The design of the stock Tiger airbox, from a pressure recovery and pressure distribution and uniform airflow into the carburetor is about as perfect as can be made on an airplane engine. The only other improvement would be a bell mouthed inlet from the carb to the freshair side (this would effectively increase the air flow volume by as much as 20%.) If possible, I'd like to find a circular airbox that allowed the inlet air to enter the carb peripherally that would fit into the available space (and between the cooling air exit ramps). If I can find such an airbox, it just might fit the AG5B and then two birds would be dead. (is that a bad analogy?) -----Original Message----- From: aa5_driver@yahoo.com Sent: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 4:07 PM Subject: cowling update Gary, Doesn't power flow use the same STC for the different aa5models? They are different applications, and I think they use the same STC, I'll have to look. If they do, they would have the same issues with the different engines. What does this mean for the AA5's?????? What changeswould be required to make it work with the aa5? I thought you already had the cowling onone.I'd try againto see if there is a way to do them all as it will make the overall cost lower. We'd be interested, when they are approved. Thanks, Kevin Well, there is good news and bad news. First, the good news: The DER has finally accepted my drawings and the stress analysis is done. It looks like the drawings and Project Plan and Test Plan and PMA paperwork and hell I forget what else, will be submitted within a few weeks. Finally. The bad news: I was going to just include all of the planes built under the AA5, AA5A, AA5B, and AG5B type certificate. Then, one of the three DERs working on the project said, "I was reading the TCDS (Type Certificate Data Sheet) and it says the AA5 and AA5A have an O320. Do you have to change anything to make your cowling work on these planes?" Ah, well, (dancing as best I could) . . . . Probably. "Then, you'll have to do those under a different STC, but, now it''l be easier because you already know what to do." Bad news continued. "Question." the DER says. "You were telling us that the AG5B has a carbon fiber cowling. Are there any other differences between the AA5B and the AG5B?" Ah, well, the inlet air induction is different. I went on to explain how American General screwed up the inlet and airbox design. "So, then, it doesn't use the same airbox as used on an AA5B Tiger?" I told them, "No. ... BUT.... I could use the AA5B airbox, but I'd have to get used ones or have them made." So, unless the AG5B drivers that want my cowling can find an AA5B airbox, they will have to wait until I get a NEW design approved with a carb air inlet that can use the AG5B airboxes (2, yes, they have two.) So, the bill to finish the project is a tad under $10,000. Any more takers on a PRE-certification sales price of $6,000? I would imagine the finished cowling will be around $8,000. I'm going to try and hold the price down. Gary -------- Sponsored Link Get an Online or Campus degree - Associate's, Bachelor's, or Master's - in less than one year. ________________________________________________________________________ across the web, free AOL Mail and more. -------- ________________________________________________________________________ across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:00:58 AM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling Update From: teamgrumman@AOL.COM OK, so, no one wants in on the early cowlings. Come on, Get the word out. Someone must want one of the early cowlings. Just $2,000 down buys an $8,000 cowling at 25% off. OK. Well, as soon as I can afford it, I'm going to tackle a parallel valve IO360 with a constant speed prop. Any takers on that???? ________________________________________________________________________ across the web, free AOL Mail and more.