Today's Message Index:
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1. 01:04 PM - Re: 78 Tiger for sale, I have pics now (teamgrumman@aol.com)
2. 01:25 PM - '73 AA1B for sale (teamgrumman@aol.com)
3. 02:08 PM - Re: 78 Tiger for sale, I have pics now (SkyMachines)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 78 Tiger for sale, I have pics now |
This is an interesting thread. =C2-
In some ways, I agree with the Banks decision to treat a top overhaul with a
grain of salt. =C2-I mean, look what's happened to the housing market and
all the bad loans. =C2-They are just covering their asses. =C2-(I can s
ay that on TeamGrumman-List and I won't get censured.)
But, the reality is, the bottom end of our engines, the O320/O360/O540 serie
s, is bullet proof. =C2-It'll easily go 3000 hours. =C2-The top end, how
ever, is only good for about 1000 hours. =C2-Oh, go ahead, tell me the sto
ry of the guy who's engine went to TBO with the original cylinders. =C2-I'
ve seen crates full of junk cylinders with 1000 to 1500 hours on them. =C2
-By the time your cylinders get to 1000 hrs, they are full of cracks, the
guides are worn, the exhaust valves are worn, and they starting to fail.
=C2-You can replace them all once, or all of them one at a time for the ne
xt 1000 hours. =C2-A top end overhaul at 1000, by someone who knows what t
hey are doing is, in my opinion, all I need to make it past TBO.
With that being said, I replaced all four cylinders on Suann's plane two yea
rs ago. =C2-The compressions remain at 79/80. =C2-It's a sweet running p
lane. =C2-The prop was overhauled two years ago. =C2-This plane is only
about 4 to 6 knots slower than mine. =C2-Trust me, it WILL outrun most any
other Tiger. =C2-All of the hoses have been replaced. =C2-I installed a
JPI 700 with the new cylinders too. =C2-And, it's not the hack job I've s
een on so many. =C2-All of the wires are hidden. =C2-
True, the paint and interior are original. =C2-She'll take a hit on those.
=C2-Other than being orange (it was the 70's), the paint is in pretty goo
d shape. =C2-And, the interior is clean and well maintained. =C2-It even
has the good seats (not the ones from the pre-78 Grummans). =C2-
So, would new paint and interior make the plane worth $80,000? =C2-No, not
by any Blue-Book/Vref criteria. . =C2-
I disagree completely with the assumption that no one wants a project. =C2
-How much would you be willing to pay for a 'creampuff?' =C2-$120,000?
=C2-$100,000? =C2-$80,000? =C2-What is your definition of a creampuff?
=C2-
A customer of mine bought a very nice Cheetah/Tiger. =C2-It was a Cheetah,
converted to a Tiger. =C2-New paint. =C2-New interior. =C2-Panel need
s some work. =C2-He paid $80,000 for it. =C2-BUT. =C2-It isn't a paint
job I'd want. =C2-And the interior is leather, with padding so thick, not
hing fits very well. =C2-To the previous owner, it's a creampuff. =C2-To
the new owner, well, he got a plane that looks pretty good. =C2-Not exact
ly what he wanted, but close.
I'm currently doing two complete restorations. =C2-In a down market, buyin
g a plane they can 'build' the way they want it, means a lot to them. =C2
-When the planes are done, they'll have planes that fit their definitions
of 'creampuff.'
I'd rather have a clean low-time airframe and KNOW what is under the paint a
nd KNOW that the interior is done so that it looks like it was meant to be t
hat way. =C2-
With respect to the 78 TIger for sale, the asking price was $75,000 OBO.
=C2-No one made a counter offer. =C2-Yes, the plane needs paint and inte
rior. =C2-Yes, it has just basic avionics, nothing special. =C2-But, the
plane itself is very clean and is a good starting base for a really sweet p
lane. =C2-With the exception of mags and a vacuum pump, firewall forward w
on't have to be touch for another 1000 hours. =C2-
So, tell me, what would be a fair price?
-----Original Message-----
From: SkyMachines <marc@skymachines.com>
Sent: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 2:23 pm
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: 78 Tiger for sale, I have pics now
Cliff is correct...a top overhaul is considered maintenance and doesn't add
value to a plane. Just as no other repairs add value, and STC's add 1/2 of
their uninstalled value. In the eyes of a lender, it is a GIVEN that the
plane is airworthy, has had good maintenance by a reputable shop (Gary or
Cliff), and that the cylinders have 80% of new compression. Any of those
factors which are not true detracts from the value, but the fact that they
are true does not add to value.
These are rules practiced by aircraft loan officers and appraisers for 50+
years. The problem with over-valued aircraft is that the deal falls apart
when the loan officer looks up the book value: Most lenders will finance
80-90% of the book value; anything over that, and the buyer has to put in
that much more cash. Most buyers refuse.
Not trying to offend this owner, and just using his airplane as an example,
but, I'm looking, and I see an airplane that needs paint and interior.
That's $15,000 I will have to incur because the seller never did. Any buyer
is going to want to be compensated for at least some of that.
The asking price might have been closer to its real value in mid-2003 or
2004, but Tigers have declined plenty since. Now, there are better deals out
there that don't need P&I. As I have written elsewhere, Grumman or no, the
few buyers out there (in a recessionary economy with $5 fuel) who are
looking for 30-year-old light airplanes are seeking "creampuffs", meaning
those which have low-time, an IFR GPS, 2-axis autopilot, and less than
10-year-old P&I; the others just sit there. Hardly anyone is looking to buy
a project unless they hold an A&P license and like projects.
It's okay to list it at $75,000 and see what happens. But, in this market,
you need to be spending $300/mo. to advertise it everywhere. And, if the
phone doesn't ring, you need to drop it by $5,000/mo. until it sells.
I'm looking for a personal Tiger, but I also do this for a living, so I know
what I'm talking about.
MC
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of flyv35b
> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 2:16 PM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: 78 Tiger for sale, I have pics now
>
> --> <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
>
> This plane has about 1400 hr SMOH even though it has a recent
> TOH with new cylinders. None of the appraisal services will
> give you a nickel for a TOH, and the time SMOH is a big hit
> on this plane. Also, it has old original paint and interior
> and old avionics, so you have to evaluate all of these
> things. It may be worth more than $56K, but it certainly
> isn't worth $75K.
>
> Cliff
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <923te@cox.net>
> To: <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 6:53 AM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: 78 Tiger for sale, I have pics now
>
>
> >
> > You got to be kidding, for $56k I'd buy it on speculation...
> > that would be way below actual market for a Gary Vogt
> maintained plane
> > with newly broke in Lycon port & flowed cylinders
> >
> > I'd say actual sales are around the 69500 bottom dollar
> mark for this
> > plane
> >
> > ---- SkyMachines USA <marc@skymachines.com> wrote:
> > Well, I'm in the market for a Tiger, but Vref and NAAA say
> this one is
> > worth $56,000...that's a long way from the $75,000 asking price.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: teamgrumman@aol.com
> > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:57 PM
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: 78 Tiger for sale, I have pics now
> >
> >
> > here they are
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: SkyMachines <marc@skymachines.com>
> > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> > Sent: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:01 pm
> > Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: 78 Tiger for sale, I have pics now
> >
> >
> > Please send photos: marc@marccoan.com or marc@skymachines.com
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Marc Coan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> > From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> > teamgrumman@aol.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 12:22 PM
> > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: TeamGrumman-List: 78 Tiger for sale, I have pics now
> >
> >
> > For Sale: 1978 Grumman Tiger AA5B., N28911, 2875 TT,
> 1399 TTSMO, 207
> > TSTOH.
> > Sensenich prop dynamically balanced. Lycoming 0-360-A4K. 180 HP.
> > 207 hrs on four new Lycoming cylinders - ported and
> polished by LyCon.
> > Excellent compression. This Tiger purrs! It is a proven winner!
> > Complete logs, all ADs. Maintained by Gary Vogt of
> AuCountry in Auburn,
> > CA. Two owners. Hangered for the past 18 years by present
> owner. IFR
> > certificated. Original paint and interior - all in good
> condition. Panel
> > mount Garmin GPS 150XL -- data base current. JPI Engine
> Analyzer with
> > Fuel Flow. King NAV/COM Radios: KX 155 TSO and KX 170B.
> Audio panel w/
> > marker beacons. Electric flaps, electric trim tab,
> transponder/encoder,
> > clock/timer, wheel pants. Annual due in May 2008.
> Maintenance and parts
> > manuals. Canvas cover. Asking $75,000 OBO.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> >
> >
> >
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">htt
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> >
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matron
> ics.com/c
> >
> >
> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGr
> umman-List
> > p://forums.matronics.com
> > ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > 11:55 AM
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
aol.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | '73 AA1B for sale |
There is a 73 AA1B for sale here in Auburn for sale. =C2-He's asking $20,0
00 OBO. =C2-
OBO means he knows $20,000 is too much. =C2-make an offer.
I have one pic. =C2-
________________________________________________________________________
aol.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | 78 Tiger for sale, I have pics now |
Well, only speaking only for myself: I've decided this airplane wouldn't
meet my needs as I want something I can fly tomorrow. Even if money was no
object, I don't want the hassle and downtime of doing the paint, interior,
and avionics. (The engine, however, doesn't scare me one bit, as I will get
several years out of it and doubt I will ever keep any plane 2000 hours.)
Most buyers I typically talk to these days feel likewise.
I'm prepared to pay $75-80K for a Tiger or Cardinal RG that has P&I < 10
years old, an IFR GPS, and a 2-axis autopilot. But, I finance my airplanes
through my local bank. They require an NAAA appraisal, and they'll loan me
80% of the appraised value. Anything over that, and I have to put it up in
cash. So, the value shown on the NAAA E-valuator on Trade-a-Plane is pretty
close to what I'll pay for any airplane. Sometimes that value is higher than
Vref and Bluebook, sometimes it is lower. It's almost always 20-30% less
than the prices asked by private sellers, and 10-15% below that asked by
broker/dealers. But the fact is, book values are based on the selling prices
of actual airplanes SOLD, not on asking prices, so I don't see paying more
than book values.
I help a lot of people buy airplanes every year, and I never recommend they
pay much over book value...there are just too many airplanes on the market.
I tell them to be patient and wait for the right airplane. Usually, what
happens is we soften up the seller with the book value. The seller is
insulted because he thinks his airplane is "special" when it is actually
average. Then, because book values really are based on selling prices, the
plane doesn't sell. We then go back to them with the same book value in a
couple months and they are more realistic and will be more accepting of our
offers.
I read recently that we lose over 100 pilots a day off the rolls. Avgas
sales were down 10% in 2007 vs. 2006. (Think about the last safety seminar
you attended: Add 20 years to everyone's age and you have hardly anyone left
who will be able to hold a medical certificate.)
The number of airplanes I see parked on ramps that obviously haven't moved
in a long time seem to be increasing. This is a declining industry, and the
days of old aircraft appreciating in value are over forever. Too many
aircraft for the number of buyers...and now we're in a recession.
Just my two cents, but I'm in the trenches every day.
Marc Coan
-----------------------------------------------------------------
President
SkyMachines USA
Tel: 1-505-741-1205
Fax: 1-866-896-5551
Email: marc@skymachines.com
Web: www.SkyMachines.com <http://www.skymachines.com/>
_____
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: 78 Tiger for sale, I have pics now
This is an interesting thread.
In some ways, I agree with the Banks decision to treat a top overhaul with a
grain of salt. I mean, look what's happened to the housing market and all
the bad loans. They are just covering their asses. (I can say that on
TeamGrumman-List and I won't get censured.)
But, the reality is, the bottom end of our engines, the O320/O360/O540
series, is bullet proof. It'll easily go 3000 hours. The top end, however,
is only good for about 1000 hours. Oh, go ahead, tell me the story of the
guy who's engine went to TBO with the original cylinders. I've seen crates
full of junk cylinders with 1000 to 1500 hours on them. By the time your
cylinders get to 1000 hrs, they are full of cracks, the guides are worn, the
exhaust valves are worn, and they starting to fail. You can replace them
all once, or all of them one at a time for the next 1000 hours. A top end
overhaul at 1000, by someone who knows what they are doing is, in my
opinion, all I need to make it past TBO.
With that being said, I replaced all four cylinders on Suann's plane two
years ago. The compressions remain at 79/80. It's a sweet running plane.
The prop was overhauled two years ago. This plane is only about 4 to 6
knots slower than mine. Trust me, it WILL outrun most any other Tiger. All
of the hoses have been replaced. I installed a JPI 700 with the new
cylinders too. And, it's not the hack job I've seen on so many. All of the
wires are hidden.
True, the paint and interior are original. She'll take a hit on those.
Other than being orange (it was the 70's), the paint is in pretty good
shape. And, the interior is clean and well maintained. It even has the
good seats (not the ones from the pre-78 Grummans).
So, would new paint and interior make the plane worth $80,000? No, not by
any Blue-Book/Vref criteria. .
I disagree completely with the assumption that no one wants a project. How
much would you be willing to pay for a 'creampuff?' $120,000? $100,000?
$80,000? What is your definition of a creampuff?
A customer of mine bought a very nice Cheetah/Tiger. It was a Cheetah,
converted to a Tiger. New paint. New interior. Panel needs some work. He
paid $80,000 for it. BUT. It isn't a paint job I'd want. And the interior
is leather, with padding so thick, nothing fits very well. To the previous
owner, it's a creampuff. To the new owner, well, he got a plane that looks
pretty good. Not exactly what he wanted, but close.
I'm currently doing two complete restorations. In a down market, buying a
plane they can 'build' the way they want it, means a lot to them. When the
planes are done, they'll have planes that fit their definitions of
'creampuff.'
I'd rather have a clean low-time airframe and KNOW what is under the paint
and KNOW that the interior is done so that it looks like it was meant to be
that way.
With respect to the 78 TIger for sale, the asking price was $75,000 OBO. No
one made a counter offer. Yes, the plane needs paint and interior. Yes, it
has just basic avionics, nothing special. But, the plane itself is very
clean and is a good starting base for a really sweet plane. With the
exception of mags and a vacuum pump, firewall forward won't have to be touch
for another 1000 hours.
So, tell me, what would be a fair price?
-----Original Message-----
From: SkyMachines <marc@skymachines.com>
Sent: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 2:23 pm
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: 78 Tiger for sale, I have pics now
Cliff is correct...a top overhaul is considered maintenance and doesn't add
value to a plane. Just as no other repairs add value, and STC's add 1/2 of
their uninstalled value. In the eyes of a lender, it is a GIVEN that the
plane is airworthy, has had good maintenance by a reputable shop (Gary or
Cliff), and that the cylinders have 80% of new compression. Any of those
factors which are not true detracts from the value, but the fact that they
are true does not add to value.
These are rules practiced by aircraft loan officers and appraisers for 50+
years. The problem with over-valued aircraft is that the deal falls apart
when the loan officer looks up the book value: Most lenders will finance
80-90% of the book value; anything over that, and the buyer has to put in
that much more cash. Most buyers refuse.
Not trying to offend this owner, and just using his airplane as an example,
but, I'm looking, and I see an airplane that needs paint and interior.
That's $15,000 I will have to incur because the seller never did. Any buyer
is going to want to be compensated for at least some of that.
The asking price might have been closer to its real value in mid-2003 or
2004, but Tigers have declined plenty since. Now, there are better deals out
there that don't need P&I. As I have written elsewhere, Grumman or no, the
few buyers out there (in a recessionary economy with $5 fuel) who are
looking for 30-year-old light airplanes are seeking "creampuffs", meaning
those which have low-time, an IFR GPS, 2-axis autopilot, and less than
10-year-old P&I; the others just sit there. Hardly anyone is looking to buy
a project unless they hold an A&P license and like projects.
It's okay to list it at $75,000 and see what happens. But, in this market,
you need to be spending $300/mo. to advertise it everywhere. And, if the
phone doesn't ring, you need to drop it by $5,000/mo. until it sells.
I'm looking for a personal Tiger, but I also do this for a living, so I know
what I'm talking about.
MC
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On
> Behalf Of flyv35b
> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 2:16 PM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: 78 Tiger for sale, I have pics now
>
> --> <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
>
> This plane has about 1400 hr SMOH even though it has a recent
> TOH with new cylinders. None of the appraisal services will
> give you a nickel for a TOH, and the time SMOH is a big hit
> on this plane. Also, it has old original paint and interior
> and old avionics, so you have to evaluate all of these
> things. It may be worth more than $56K, but it certainly
> isn't worth $75K.
>
> Cliff
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <923te@cox.net>
> To: <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 6:53 AM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: 78 Tiger for sale, I have pics now
>
>
> >
> > You got to be kidding, for $56k I'd buy it on speculation...
> > that would be way below actual market for a Gary Vogt
> maintained plane
> > with newly broke in Lycon port & flowed cylinders
> >
> > I'd say actual sales are around the 69500 bottom dollar
> mark for this
> > plane
> >
> > ---- SkyMachines USA <marc@skymachines.com> wrote:
> > Well, I'm in the market for a Tiger, but Vref and NAAA say
> this one is
> > worth $56,000...that's a long way from the $75,000 asking price.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: teamgrumman@aol.com
> > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 10:57 PM
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: 78 Tiger for sale, I have pics now
> >
> >
> > here they are
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: SkyMachines <marc@skymachines.com>
> > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> > Sent: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:01 pm
> > Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: 78 Tiger for sale, I have pics now
> >
> >
> > Please send photos: marc@marccoan.com or marc@skymachines.com
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Marc Coan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> > From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of
> > teamgrumman@aol.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 12:22 PM
> > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: TeamGrumman-List: 78 Tiger for sale, I have pics now
> >
> >
> > For Sale: 1978 Grumman Tiger AA5B., N28911, 2875 TT,
> 1399 TTSMO, 207
> > TSTOH.
> > Sensenich prop dynamically balanced. Lycoming 0-360-A4K. 180 HP.
> > 207 hrs on four new Lycoming cylinders - ported and
> polished by LyCon.
> > Excellent compression. This Tiger purrs! It is a proven winner!
> > Complete logs, all ADs. Maintained by Gary Vogt of
> AuCountry in Auburn,
> > CA. Two owners. Hangered for the past 18 years by present
> owner. IFR
> > certificated. Original paint and interior - all in good
> condition. Panel
> > mount Garmin GPS 150XL -- data base current. JPI Engine
> Analyzer with
> > Fuel Flow. King NAV/COM Radios: KX 155 TSO and KX 170B.
> Audio panel w/
> > marker beacons. Electric flaps, electric trim tab,
> transponder/encoder,
> > clock/timer, wheel pants. Annual due in May 2008.
> Maintenance and parts
> > manuals. Canvas cover. Asking $75,000 OBO.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> >
> >
> >
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">htt
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> >
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matron
> ics.com/c
> >
> >
> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGr
> umman-List
> > p://forums.matronics.com
> > ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > 11:55 AM
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
t" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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