---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/13/08: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:55 AM - Re: Any interesting annuals lately? (Andy Thomas) 2. 07:04 AM - Re: Any interesting annuals lately? (SkyMachines) 3. 07:04 AM - Re: JPI vs EI Probes (SkyMachines) 4. 11:29 AM - Re: Any interesting annuals lately? (teamgrumman@aol.com) 5. 11:40 AM - Re: JPI vs EI Probes (teamgrumman@aol.com) 6. 11:54 AM - Re: Any interesting annuals lately? (teamgrumman@aol.com) 7. 12:02 PM - Re: JPI vs EI Probes (SkyMachines) 8. 01:51 PM - Re: JPI vs EI Probes (teamgrumman@aol.com) 9. 02:14 PM - Re: JPI vs EI Probes (SkyMachines) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:30 AM PST US From: "Andy Thomas" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Any interesting annuals lately? Gary, Can you supply some details on the 79 Cheetah or put me in touch with the seller. thanks, Andy Thomas ----- Original Message ----- To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 12:23 AM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Any interesting annuals lately? just out of curiosty, what do you charge for an annual for 1978 grumman aa1c i would fly to you and assist? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Any interesting annuals lately? Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 01:11:39 -0400 From: teamgrumman@aol.com Well, yes I have. I did an annual on a 75 Tiger in which the entire instrument panel had been cut open at the avionics stack. Picture if you will, the panel being cut 6 1/4 inches wide, the width of the avionics stack, from the top to the bottom, and then braces and avionics trays installed to replace the strength removed by the removing the panel. The wings were leaking at bond lines. I referred him to Fletcher but he said it was too far to go. Every surface had been riveted together. Obviously, major debonding. The fuel tanks are the last sections to be riveted. I had another customer deliver his plane saying, "I need it in a week to fly to Southern California." I finished the plane and called one of the three partners; the one who wanted the plane in a week. He couldn't fly over because his life insurance wasn't paid off. The second owner had lost his medical and couldn't fly. The third partner just bought a Bonanza and was busy. After going back and forth, I got paid. Two months passed. The first partner finally got his life insurance paid off and was working with the third owner to get a ride over. A day was arranged. I waited. and waited. No owner. I called. Apparently the third partner was not IFR current, and, even though the sky was blue from the bay area to Auburn, could not fly over the cloud cover in the central valley because, God forbid, what if the engine in his Bonanza quits and he has to land in the fog. I finally moved the plane to transient parking, called the first partner and told him it would cost $10 a day in transient. He was there the next day to pick up the plane. I finished another annual, the owner paid 1/3 of the annual, and, since she lost her medical, has decided to leave the plane in Auburn. Any interest in a good deal on a 79 Cheetah? -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 1:46 pm Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Any interesting annuals lately? Gary, Have you had any interesting/odd annuals recently? Thanks. Bruce Smith =========== t" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List =========== p://forums.matronics.com =========== blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =========== ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Supercharge your AIM. Get the AIM toolbar for your browser. st" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail=AE-get your "fix". Check it out. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG. 3/12/2008 1:27 PM ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:14 AM PST US From: "SkyMachines" Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Any interesting annuals lately? It never ceases to amaze me what owners and sellers of airplanes expect for their money. And the cheapskatedness of aircraft owners in general is amazing, considering many have a lot more money than the shops they do business with. But there seems to be more cheapskatedness by the owners of Mooneys and Grumans than Bonanza and 210 drivers. Makes sense, I suppose, as the efficiency of the former would naturally attract those who want to skimp. I'm old-fashioned I guess. I believe 1.) You get what you pay for 2.) Either you can afford an airplane or you can't...if you can, then you pay the your bills on time, every time. If you can't, you sell it and become a renter. 3.) If you make a deal or a promise, you stick to it, even if you lose your medical, your car's transmission goes out, it's IFR, or whatever...no excuses. 4.) If you're in business, you return calls within 24 hours and you check your email at least once daily. Example: A partner just picked up our airplane from some repairs done by a shop an hour away we hadn't used before. I pay the bills, so I called the shop and said, "Fax me the invoice." He did it within an hour. I called back. "The invoice is $2100. All we got today is $1500. My partner will bring a check down for that. We'll have the rest next week, then you can mail me the logbook stickers for the work." I didn't question any of the expenses on the invoice (if I wasn't happy with the invoice, I would have just not gone to him again). Come the following week, I mailed him a check for $600. I would have done that even if I had to borrow the money from my credit card at 21% interest BECAUSE I SAID I WOULD. Two days later, I had the logbook stickers in the mail from him. Again, this was a new shop for us. What do you think the chances we'll do business with him again is? Probably 100%. What are the chances he'll WANT to do business with us again? Probably 100%. All because he and I did what we said we would, when we said we would. _____ From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of teamgrumman@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:12 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Any interesting annuals lately? Well, yes I have. I did an annual on a 75 Tiger in which the entire instrument panel had been cut open at the avionics stack. Picture if you will, the panel being cut 6 1/4 inches wide, the width of the avionics stack, from the top to the bottom, and then braces and avionics trays installed to replace the strength removed by the removing the panel. The wings were leaking at bond lines. I referred him to Fletcher but he said it was too far to go. Every surface had been riveted together. Obviously, major debonding. The fuel tanks are the last sections to be riveted. I had another customer deliver his plane saying, "I need it in a week to fly to Southern California." I finished the plane and called one of the three partners; the one who wanted the plane in a week. He couldn't fly over because his life insurance wasn't paid off. The second owner had lost his medical and couldn't fly. The third partner just bought a Bonanza and was busy. After going back and forth, I got paid. Two months passed. The first partner finally got his life insurance paid off and was working with the third owner to get a ride over. A day was arranged. I waited. and waited. No owner. I called. Apparently the third partner was not IFR current, and, even though the sky was blue from the bay area to Auburn, could not fly over the cloud cover in the central valley because, God forbid, what if the engine in his Bonanza quits and he has to land in the fog. I finally moved the plane to transient parking, called the first partner and told him it would cost $10 a day in transient. He was there the next day to pick up the plane. I finished another annual, the owner paid 1/3 of the annual, and, since she lost her medical, has decided to leave the plane in Auburn. Any interest in a good deal on a 79 Cheetah? -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith Sent: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 1:46 pm Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Any interesting annuals lately? Gary, Have you had any interesting/odd annuals recently? Thanks. Bruce Smith =========== t" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List =========== p://forums.matronics.com =========== blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =========== _____ Supercharge your AIM. Get the AIM toolbar for your browser. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:57 AM PST US From: "SkyMachines" Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: JPI vs EI Probes > There is no cooling problem in the Grummans. If the air flow were insufficient for proper cooling, the 260 hp 6 cylinder engined Grummans would have a lot of cooling problems. They don't. It's a myth that the Grummans run hotter than any other plane. Ouch. My pocketbook would disagree. So, what's the solution to cylinders in the 450 range at cruise? Marc Coan, Taos, NM ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:29:03 AM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Any interesting annuals lately? From: teamgrumman@aol.com As a rule, I don't work on the 2 seater. =C2-There is a 2 seater owner her e, however, that I've mentored, and he does pretty good work (if "I" think h e does good, then he does good work). =C2-He has asked me to have those wi th 2 seaters, wanting annuals, to have them brought here and he'd work on th em. =C2-If you want to bring your plane up, I can find room for you. =C2 -The shop hours are generally between noon and 8pm. =C2-When I have an o wner assist, I've been known to start as early as 9am. =C2-Shop rate is cu rrently $80/hr. =C2-I'm trying to hold down prices during this economic bo om we are privy to. =C2- -----Original Message----- From: Michael Karatsonyi Sent: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:23 pm Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Any interesting annuals lately? just out of curiosty, what do you charge for an annual for 1978 grumman aa1c i would fly to you and assist? Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Any interesting annuals lately? From: teamgrumman@aol.com Well, yes I have. =C2-I did an annual on a 75 Tiger in which the entire in strument panel had been cut open at the avionics stack. =C2-Picture if you will, the panel being cut 6 1/4 inches wide, the width of the avionics stac k, from the top to the bottom, and then braces and avionics trays installed to replace the strength removed by the removing the panel. =C2- The wings were leaking at bond lines. =C2-I referred him to Fletcher but h e said it was too far to go. Every surface had been riveted together. =C2-Obviously, major debonding. =C2-The fuel tanks are the last sections to be riveted. I had another customer deliver his plane saying, "I need it in a week to fly to Southern California." =C2-I finished the plane and called one of the t hree partners; the one who wanted the plane in a week. =C2-He couldn't fly over because his life insurance wasn't paid off. =C2-The second owner had lost his medical and couldn't fly. =C2-The third partner just bought a Bo nanza and was busy. =C2-After going back and forth, I got paid. =C2-Two months passed. =C2-The first partner finally got his life insurance paid o ff and was working with the third owner to get a ride over. =C2-A day was arranged. =C2-I waited. =C2-and waited. =C2-No owner. =C2-I called. =C2-Apparently the third partner was not IFR current, and, even though the sky was blue from the bay area to Auburn, could not fly over the cloud cove r in the central valley because, God forbid, what if the engine in his Bonan za quits and he has to land in the fog. =C2-I finally moved the plane to t ransient parking, called the first partner and told him it would cost $10 a day in transient. =C2-He was there the next day to pick up the plane.=C2 - I finished another annual, the owner paid 1/3 of the annual, and, since she lost her medical, has decided to leave the plane in Auburn. =C2-Any intere st in a good deal on a 79 Cheetah? -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith Sent: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 1:46 pm Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Any interesting annuals lately? =C2- =C2- Gary,=C2- =C2- Have you had any interesting/odd annuals recently?=C2- =C2- Thanks.=C2- =C2- Bruce Smith=C2- =C2- ============C2- t" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=C2 - ============C2- p://forums.matronics.com=C2- ============C2- blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=C2- ============C2- =C2- =C2- Supercharge your AIM. Get the AIM toolbar for your browser. st" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail=C2=AE-get your "fix". Check it out. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:40:14 AM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: JPI vs EI Probes From: teamgrumman@aol.com If you are running 450 in cruise, then your baffles are not doing their job. =C2-send me some pics, detailed pics, of the top and bottom (where they a re tied to the bottom of the engine.) -----Original Message----- From: SkyMachines Sent: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 7:01 am Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: JPI vs EI Probes > There is no cooling problem in the Grummans. =C2-If the air flow were insufficient for proper cooling, the 26 0 hp 6 cylinder engined Grummans would have a lot of cooling problems. =C2-They don't. =C2-It's a myth that the Grummans run hotter than any other plane.=C2-=C2- Ouch.=C2-My pocketbook would disagree. So, what's the solution to cylinders in the 450 range at cruise? =C2- Marc Coan, Taos, NM ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:54:33 AM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Any interesting annuals lately? From: teamgrumman@aol.com Here is the skinny on the Cheetah. =C2- It's a 79 with 2878 TTSN. =C2-1029 SMOH. =C2-(I would put new cylinders on it.) =C2-Compressions in the 76 range. =C2-I installed a Garmin 430 a udio panel this annual. =C2-The 'thing' she had in there was scary. =C2 -505 hours on the vacuum pump (I would replace this too). =C2-260 on the alternator. =C2-390 on the carb. =C2-etc. =C2-It has had regular main tenance over the years. =C2-The horizontal braces were replaced two years ago by an outfit in Minden Nevada. =C2-The engine is fairly smooth. =C2 -The prop needs an overhaul. =C2-I put all new baffles in it last year. =C2- As for radios, it has a Garmin 300 xl, and a spot for a King KX 170. =C2-T he unit I took out was/is garbage. =C2-The transponder is, I think, a King 76. =C2-It has an old glide slope but I don't know if it works. =C2- The interior is average to poor. =C2-The paint is average to poor. =C2- This would be a great plane for someone wanting to buy cheap and fly cheap. =C2-Wow, that sounds like the entire Grumman community doesn't it. =C2- It isn't a plane I would fall in love with. =C2-The wings have had some da mage in the past and had sections (roughly 18 inches square) replaced (I thi nk Fletcher did one section). =C2-It needs wheel pants. =C2-It has them, they are plastic and in need of replacement. =C2-The glass is in very poo r shape. =C2-The windshield is so foggy it would make IFR training very ea sy. =C2- For $35,000 it would make someone a plane owner on which they could do a lit tle work and have a decent plane. =C2-I haven't take any pictures of it. =C2- -----Original Message----- From: Andy Thomas Sent: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 5:53 am Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Any interesting annuals lately? Gary, =C2- Can you supply some details on the 79 Cheetah or put me in touch with the seller. =C2- thanks, =C2- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:02:22 PM PST US From: "SkyMachines" Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: JPI vs EI Probes No, I sold the airplane. But man did we play with baffling a lot. _____ From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of teamgrumman@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 12:37 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: JPI vs EI Probes If you are running 450 in cruise, then your baffles are not doing their job. send me some pics, detailed pics, of the top and bottom (where they are tied to the bottom of the engine.) -----Original Message----- From: SkyMachines Sent: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 7:01 am Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: JPI vs EI Probes > There is no cooling problem in the Grummans. If the air flow were insufficient for proper cooling, the 260 hp 6 cylinder engined Grummans would have a lot of cooling problems. They don't. It's a myth that the Grummans run hotter than any other plane. Ouch. My pocketbook would disagree. So, what's the solution to cylinders in the 450 range at cruise? Marc Coan, Taos, NM or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List p://forums.matronics.com ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Supercharge your AIM. Get the AIM toolbar for your browser. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:51:10 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: JPI vs EI Probes From: teamgrumman@aol.com how many hours did you have on the cylinders you think failed do to improper cooling? -----Original Message----- From: teamgrumman@aol.com Sent: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 11:36 am Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: JPI vs EI Probes If you are running 450 in cruise, then your baffles are not doing their job. =C2-send me some pics, detailed pics, of the top and bottom (where they a re tied to the bottom of the engine.) -----Original Message----- From: SkyMachines Sent: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 7:01 am Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: JPI vs EI Probes > There is no cooling problem in the Grummans. =C2-If the air flow were insufficient for proper cooling, the 26 0 hp 6 cylinder engined Grummans would have a lot of cooling problems. =C2-They don't. =C2-It's a myth that the Grummans run hotter than any other plane.=C2-=C2- Ouch.=C2-My pocketbook would disagree. So, what's the solution to cylinders in the 450 range at cruise? =C2- Marc Coan, Taos, NM or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List p://forums.matronics.com ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution Supercharge your AIM. Get the AIM toolbar for your browser. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:14:40 PM PST US From: "SkyMachines" Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: JPI vs EI Probes I think there was 750. _____ From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of teamgrumman@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 2:49 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: JPI vs EI Probes how many hours did you have on the cylinders you think failed do to improper cooling? -----Original Message----- From: teamgrumman@aol.com Sent: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 11:36 am Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: JPI vs EI Probes If you are running 450 in cruise, then your baffles are not doing their job. send me some pics, detailed pics, of the top and bottom (where they are tied to the bottom of the engine.) -----Original Message----- From: SkyMachines Sent: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 7:01 am Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: JPI vs EI Probes > There is no cooling problem in the Grummans. If the air flow were insufficient for proper cooling, the 260 hp 6 cylinder engined Grummans would have a lot of cooling problems. They don't. It's a myth that the Grummans run hotter than any other plane. Ouch. My pocketbook would disagree. So, what's the solution to cylinders in the 450 range at cruise? Marc Coan, Taos, NM or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List p://forums.matronics.com ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Supercharge your AIM. Get the AIM toolbar for your browser. or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List p://forums.matronics.com ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Supercharge your AIM. 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