Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:22 AM - Question: What would you do? (teamgrumman@aol.com)
2. 04:45 AM - Re: Question: What would you do? (phil)
3. 05:06 AM - Re: Question: What would you do? (linn Walters)
4. 06:51 AM - Re: Question: What would you do? (923te)
5. 07:39 AM - Re: Question: What would you do? (923te)
6. 12:24 PM - Re: Question: What would you do? (teamgrumman@aol.com)
7. 01:01 PM - Cowling Update: Really good news. (teamgrumman@aol.com)
8. 01:58 PM - Re: Cowling Update: Really good news. (James Courtney)
9. 02:33 PM - Re: Question: What would you do? (Brian Hausknecht)
10. 04:36 PM - Re: Cowling Update: Really good news. (923te)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Question: What would you do? |
A couple of months ago, I got a call from a former customer, on who's plane
I worked about 5 years ago, to replace the windshield. =C2-At the time, I
was 6 planes deep. =C2-By the time the customer (I'll refer to the custome
r as SC) brought the plane in for the windshield, I was 9 planes deep. =C2
-
I told SC that I'd get to the windshield in a couple of weeks. =C2-I wasn'
t able to pull the windshield, however, until the plane had been here two we
eks already. =C2-In case you don't know the process, when using RTV 732, t
hat sealant/adhesive needs to cure a minimum of 3 days before it can be inst
alled. =C2-By the time I got the windshield bonded to the frame (windshiel
d bow) it was two weeks and one day. =C2-I wanted to wait a week before in
stalling the windshield. =C2-
I put off finishing two very good customer's planes, both in ahead of SC, so
I could get SC's plane done.
Oh, yea, SC had told me, when the plane was brought in, that it 'would be ni
ce to have one of my fiberglass eyebrows.' =C2-SOOOO . . =C2-While the w
indshield was out, I rewired the plastic eyebrow and changed the rocker swit
ch on the left to two toggle switches to be used in conjunction with the fib
erglass eyebrow. =C2-In the process, I fixed the wiring to the compass, I
corrected the cabin lighting, I corrected the map light wiring, I replaced a
ll of the lights in the plastic eyebrow, and replaced the missing corner pan
el light (red) on the right side. =C2-This took about 3 1/2 hours. =C2-T
o make the necessary changes to install the eyebrow, with the windshield in,
would have taken about 5 or 6 hours. =C2-To my way of thinking, we'd both
save time. =C2-Now, a new eyebrow can simply be plugged in. =C2-
As you may recall, the windshield I took out was a 1/8 inch thick windshield
. =C2-Fitting the thicker windshield was a bit of a challenge. =C2-But,
I did get it in. =C2-And it fit fine. =C2-I use a business card to check
the drag on the canopy seals to make sure there is an even seal all the way
around the canopy/windshield bow. =C2-
When SC picked up the plane, I was told, "Oh, I don't have any money with me
. =C2-I'll send you a check." =C2-OK, well, then, "I'll keep the tag use
d for the logbook entry." =C2-When SC opened the canopy, SC remarked, the
latch seems too tight, "I can't close it very easily." =C2-So, I took out
a couple of the spacer shims. =C2-
The next day, before I got to the airport, SC took the plane. =C2-
I got a call later that day that from SC and was told, "The canopy doesn't c
lose all the way. =C2-There is a lot of wind noise and I can see light thr
ough the right upper corner." =C2-I suggested replacing the shims. =C2-
On Monday, I got a voice mail saying the shims were replaced and that the wi
ndshield was still not right and that it would have to be redone. =C2-SC s
ounded like this is the worst bit of workmanship SD'd ever seen. =C2-Trust
me, it's the best looking part on the plane.
OK, the only thing I can imagine is that the windshield has settled done int
o the forward coving and the top of the windshield is too far forward. =C2
-I suggested that SC bring the plane back and I'd fix it. =C2-
SC: =C2-"I think you should come down here and fix it." =C2-A 3 hour fli
ght one way. =C2-I offered to drop the charges for the windshield by two h
undred dollars and then SC would bring the plane to Auburn. =C2-I figured
it would take about 4 or 5 hours to remove the windshield and re-fit it.
=C2- I'd fix it for no-charge. =C2-
Then, the question of the eyebrow wiring came up. =C2-SC: =C2-"I can't a
fford your eyebrow. =C2-I never asked for you to change the wiring." =C2
-=C2-OK, fair enough. =C2-My interpretation was that SC wanted the eye
brow. =C2-I should have known from previous encounters 5 or 6 yeas ago.
=C2-Mind fart. =C2-I told SC that I'd eat the charges on the wiring also
. =C2-
So, I'm offering to eat about 5 hours in current charges plus 5 hours in pro
jected charges to re-fit the windshield. =C2-I'm not 100% convinced SC eve
r planned to pay for the windshield installation (SC brought the windshield
with the plane when the plane was brought to Auburn). =C2-
At this point, I have three choices:=C2-
(1) follow through with correcting the installation of the windshield here i
n Auburn and hold the plane hostage until the invoice is paid;=C2-
(2) Fly to SC's home base and fix the windshield there, outside, in the sun,
and pay for the fuel down and back myself and gamble on SC paying me the fu
ll amount after it's finished; or=C2-
(3) Cut my losses and just let SC find someone else to fix the windshield.
The total invoice right now is around $1600. =C2-I've got about 12 hours i
n the removal, prep, bonding, and installing the windshield, plus, 3 hours f
or the wiring.
What would you do?
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Question: What would you do? |
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Question: What would you do? |
For starters, #1. I doubt that he'll bring the airplane to you,
though. Then, I'd sue the sucker for the whole bill (and legal
expenses, if you can), making sure the airplane couldn't leave if it did
show up.
Now I know that you don't really need to hear this ...... the shoe's on
the other foot (AKA the annual from hell) ...... where things weren't
written down. When I was a slave (OK, consultant), I had to create a
huge document that described what my customer wanted and how I was going
to provide it. It was part of my contract. And you know, even with
that, I still got 'well, you said' ....... and a nasty letter from a
lawyer (who was usually on retainer anyway). I always won, but it took
time away from my customers, not to mention my money. The legal crap
was a big reason why I weaned myself off of being a consultant.
Linn ..... I really hate paperwork too!
teamgrumman@aol.com wrote:
> A couple of months ago, I got a call from a former customer, on who's
> plane I worked about 5 years ago, to replace the windshield. At the
> time, I was 6 planes deep. By the time the customer (I'll refer to
> the customer as SC) brought the plane in for the windshield, I was 9
> planes deep.
>
> I told SC that I'd get to the windshield in a couple of weeks. I
> wasn't able to pull the windshield, however, until the plane had been
> here two weeks already. In case you don't know the process, when
> using RTV 732, that sealant/adhesive needs to cure a minimum of 3 days
> before it can be installed. By the time I got the windshield bonded
> to the frame (windshield bow) it was two weeks and one day. I wanted
> to wait a week before installing the windshield.
>
> I put off finishing two very good customer's planes, both in ahead of
> SC, so I could get SC's plane done.
>
> Oh, yea, SC had told me, when the plane was brought in, that it 'would
> be nice to have one of my fiberglass eyebrows.' SOOOO . . While the
> windshield was out, I rewired the plastic eyebrow and changed the
> rocker switch on the left to two toggle switches to be used in
> conjunction with the fiberglass eyebrow. In the process, I fixed the
> wiring to the compass, I corrected the cabin lighting, I corrected the
> map light wiring, I replaced all of the lights in the plastic eyebrow,
> and replaced the missing corner panel light (red) on the right side.
> This took about 3 1/2 hours. To make the necessary changes to
> install the eyebrow, with the windshield in, would have taken about 5
> or 6 hours. To my way of thinking, we'd both save time. Now, a new
> eyebrow can simply be plugged in.
>
> As you may recall, the windshield I took out was a 1/8 inch thick
> windshield. Fitting the thicker windshield was a bit of a challenge.
> But, I did get it in. And it fit fine. I use a business card to
> check the drag on the canopy seals to make sure there is an even seal
> all the way around the canopy/windshield bow.
>
> When SC picked up the plane, I was told, "Oh, I don't have any money
> with me. I'll send you a check." OK, well, then, "I'll keep the tag
> used for the logbook entry." When SC opened the canopy, SC remarked,
> the latch seems too tight, "I can't close it very easily." So, I took
> out a couple of the spacer shims.
>
> The next day, before I got to the airport, SC took the plane.
>
> I got a call later that day that from SC and was told, "The canopy
> doesn't close all the way. There is a lot of wind noise and I can see
> light through the right upper corner." I suggested replacing the shims.
>
> On Monday, I got a voice mail saying the shims were replaced and that
> the windshield was still not right and that it would have to be
> redone. SC sounded like this is the worst bit of workmanship SD'd
> ever seen. Trust me, it's the best looking part on the plane.
>
> OK, the only thing I can imagine is that the windshield has settled
> done into the forward coving and the top of the windshield is too far
> forward. I suggested that SC bring the plane back and I'd fix it.
>
> SC: "I think you should come down here and fix it." A 3 hour flight
> one way. I offered to drop the charges for the windshield by two
> hundred dollars and then SC would bring the plane to Auburn. I
> figured it would take about 4 or 5 hours to remove the windshield and
> re-fit it. I'd fix it for no-charge.
>
> Then, the question of the eyebrow wiring came up. SC: "I can't
> afford your eyebrow. I never asked for you to change the wiring."
> OK, fair enough. My interpretation was that SC wanted the eyebrow.
> I should have known from previous encounters 5 or 6 yeas ago. Mind
> fart. I told SC that I'd eat the charges on the wiring also.
>
> So, I'm offering to eat about 5 hours in current charges plus 5 hours
> in projected charges to re-fit the windshield. I'm not 100% convinced
> SC ever planned to pay for the windshield installation (SC brought the
> windshield with the plane when the plane was brought to Auburn).
>
> At this point, I have three choices:
> (1) follow through with correcting the installation of the windshield
> here in Auburn and hold the plane hostage until the invoice is paid;
> (2) Fly to SC's home base and fix the windshield there, outside, in
> the sun, and pay for the fuel down and back myself and gamble on SC
> paying me the full amount after it's finished; or
> (3) Cut my losses and just let SC find someone else to fix the windshield.
>
> The total invoice right now is around $1600. I've got about 12 hours
> in the removal, prep, bonding, and installing the windshield, plus, 3
> hours for the wiring.
>
> What would you do?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get the Moviefone Toolbar
> <http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=aolcmp00050000000011>.
> Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more!
> *
>
>
> *
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Question: What would you do? |
A. 1) File a Claim of Lien with the FAA for the total amount due.
http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_
registry/record_aircraft_lien/
2) Be sure to include telephone consultation charges of at least
$2 per minute and do not discount your bill. If you have not given a
written bill yet, be sure to
increase the verbal bill with a wtirtten one that includes rush
order charges and any other legitimate charges one would recieve from a
Jet repair center.
3) Also include interest on the unpaid balance...at least 18%
4) File FAA Form 8010-4 reporting the owners own words that the
windshield is not installed correctly and improper logbook. This will
help protect you
in event of owner crash and it will record and enforce the fact
that the aircraft is unairworthy in the owners own opinion
http://forms.faa.gov/forms/faa8010-4.pdf
or
B. Go to customer location remove winshield and all other work with most
expediant method and leave it that way...
or
C. Call Guido "the break a you legs collector";)
or
D. Install your cowl on my Tiger so I can win race. I'll do what ever it
takes to get resolution to problem,,,
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:19 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do?
A couple of months ago, I got a call from a former customer, on who's
plane I worked about 5 years ago, to replace the windshield. At the
time, I was 6 planes deep. By the time the customer (I'll refer to the
customer as SC) brought the plane in for the windshield, I was 9 planes
deep.
I told SC that I'd get to the windshield in a couple of weeks. I
wasn't able to pull the windshield, however, until the plane had been
here two weeks already. In case you don't know the process, when using
RTV 732, that sealant/adhesive needs to cure a minimum of 3 days before
it can be installed. By the time I got the windshield bonded to the
frame (windshield bow) it was two weeks and one day. I wanted to wait a
week before installing the windshield.
I put off finishing two very good customer's planes, both in ahead of
SC, so I could get SC's plane done.
Oh, yea, SC had told me, when the plane was brought in, that it 'would
be nice to have one of my fiberglass eyebrows.' SOOOO . . While the
windshield was out, I rewired the plastic eyebrow and changed the rocker
switch on the left to two toggle switches to be used in conjunction with
the fiberglass eyebrow. In the process, I fixed the wiring to the
compass, I corrected the cabin lighting, I corrected the map light
wiring, I replaced all of the lights in the plastic eyebrow, and
replaced the missing corner panel light (red) on the right side. This
took about 3 1/2 hours. To make the necessary changes to install the
eyebrow, with the windshield in, would have taken about 5 or 6 hours.
To my way of thinking, we'd both save time. Now, a new eyebrow can
simply be plugged in.
As you may recall, the windshield I took out was a 1/8 inch thick
windshield. Fitting the thicker windshield was a bit of a challenge.
But, I did get it in. And it fit fine. I use a business card to check
the drag on the canopy seals to make sure there is an even seal all the
way around the canopy/windshield bow.
When SC picked up the plane, I was told, "Oh, I don't have any money
with me. I'll send you a check." OK, well, then, "I'll keep the tag
used for the logbook entry." When SC opened the canopy, SC remarked,
the latch seems too tight, "I can't close it very easily." So, I took
out a couple of the spacer shims.
The next day, before I got to the airport, SC took the plane.
I got a call later that day that from SC and was told, "The canopy
doesn't close all the way. There is a lot of wind noise and I can see
light through the right upper corner." I suggested replacing the shims.
On Monday, I got a voice mail saying the shims were replaced and that
the windshield was still not right and that it would have to be redone.
SC sounded like this is the worst bit of workmanship SD'd ever seen.
Trust me, it's the best looking part on the plane.
OK, the only thing I can imagine is that the windshield has settled
done into the forward coving and the top of the windshield is too far
forward. I suggested that SC bring the plane back and I'd fix it.
SC: "I think you should come down here and fix it." A 3 hour flight
one way. I offered to drop the charges for the windshield by two
hundred dollars and then SC would bring the plane to Auburn. I figured
it would take about 4 or 5 hours to remove the windshield and re-fit it.
I'd fix it for no-charge.
Then, the question of the eyebrow wiring came up. SC: "I can't
afford your eyebrow. I never asked for you to change the wiring." OK,
fair enough. My interpretation was that SC wanted the eyebrow. I
should have known from previous encounters 5 or 6 yeas ago. Mind fart.
I told SC that I'd eat the charges on the wiring also.
So, I'm offering to eat about 5 hours in current charges plus 5 hours
in projected charges to re-fit the windshield. I'm not 100% convinced
SC ever planned to pay for the windshield installation (SC brought the
windshield with the plane when the plane was brought to Auburn).
At this point, I have three choices:
(1) follow through with correcting the installation of the windshield
here in Auburn and hold the plane hostage until the invoice is paid;
(2) Fly to SC's home base and fix the windshield there, outside, in
the sun, and pay for the fuel down and back myself and gamble on SC
paying me the full amount after it's finished; or
(3) Cut my losses and just let SC find someone else to fix the
windshield.
The total invoice right now is around $1600. I've got about 12 hours
in the removal, prep, bonding, and installing the windshield, plus, 3
hours for the wiring.
What would you do?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Question: What would you do? |
I would think that just the threat of doing A.would get the thief to pay
his bill....I'd tell him that after his check cleared then you would be
willing to discuss not doing A and perhaps consider doing repairs......
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Question: What would you do? |
what about posting the real name, n-number, and location of the plane and owner?
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 7:37 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do?
I would think that just the threat of doing
A.would get the thief to pay his bill....I'd tell him that after his check
cleared then you would be willing to discuss not doing A and perhaps consider
doing repairs......
Message 7
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| Subject: | Cowling Update: Really good news. |
I just got news that the Installation Instructions and all 76 drawings have
been approved by the FAA. =C2-Now the next step is to get the FAA to appro
ve the flight test, get all the test instruments certified, get a chase plan
e lined up, and then go test. =C2-
In theory, the cowling should be approved within 30 to 60 days. =C2-
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 6:48 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do?
A. 1) File a Claim of Lien with the FAA for
the total amount due. http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_cert
ification/aircraft_registry/record_aircraft_lien/
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- 2)=C2-Be sure
to=C2- include telephone consultation charges of at least $2=C2- per min
ute
and do not discount your bill. If you have not given a written bill yet, be
sure
to
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-increase
the verbal bill with a wtirtten one that includes rush order charges and any
other legitimate charges one would recieve from a Jet repair
center.
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- 3)=C2-Also include
interest on the unpaid balance...at least 18%
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- 4) File FAA Form
8010-4 reporting the owners own words that the windshield is not installed
correctly and improper logbook. This will help protect=C2-you
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
in=C2-event of owner crash and it will=C2-record and enforce the fact th
at
the=C2-aircraft is=C2-unairworthy in the owners own opinion
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-http://forms.faa.gov/forms/faa8010-4.pdf
=C2-
or
=C2-
B. Go to customer location remove winshield
and all other work with most expediant method and leave=C2-it that
way...
=C2-
or
=C2-
C. Call Guido "the break a you legs
collector";)
=C2-
or
=C2-
D. Install your cowl on my Tiger so I can win
race. I'll do what ever it takes to get resolution to problem,,,
=C2-
----- Original Message -----
From:
teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:19
AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What
would you do?
A
couple of months ago, I got a call from a former customer, on who's plane
I
worked about 5 years ago, to replace the windshield. =C2-At the time, I
was
6 planes deep. =C2-By the time the customer (I'll refer to the customer
as
SC) brought the plane in for the windshield, I was 9 planes deep. =C2-
I told SC that I'd get to the windshield in a couple of weeks. =C2-I
wasn't able to pull the windshield, however, until the plane had been here
two
weeks already. =C2-In case you don't know the process, when using RTV 73
2,
that sealant/adhesive needs to cure a minimum of 3 days before it can be
installed. =C2-By the time I got the windshield bonded to the frame
(windshield bow) it was two weeks and one day. =C2-I wanted to wait a we
ek
before installing the windshield. =C2-
I put off finishing two very good customer's planes, both in ahead of SC,
so I could get SC's plane done.
Oh, yea, SC had told me, when the plane was brought in, that it 'would be
nice to have one of my fiberglass eyebrows.' =C2-SOOOO . . =C2-While t
he
windshield was out, I rewired the plastic eyebrow and changed the rocker
switch on the left to two toggle switches to be used in conjunction with t
he
fiberglass eyebrow. =C2-In the process, I fixed the wiring to the compas
s, I
corrected the cabin lighting, I corrected the map light wiring, I replaced
all
of the lights in the plastic eyebrow, and replaced the missing corner pane
l
light (red) on the right side. =C2-This took about 3 1/2 hours. =C2-To
make the necessary changes to install the eyebrow, with the windshield in,
would have taken about 5 or 6 hours. =C2-To my way of thinking, we'd bot
h
save time. =C2-Now, a new eyebrow can simply be plugged in. =C2-
As you may recall, the windshield I took out was a 1/8 inch thick
windshield. =C2-Fitting the thicker windshield was a bit of a challenge.
=C2-But, I did get it in. =C2-And it fit fine. =C2-I use a business
card
to check the drag on the canopy seals to make sure there is an even seal a
ll
the way around the canopy/windshield bow. =C2-
When SC picked up the plane, I was told, "Oh, I don't have any money with
me. =C2-I'll send you a check." =C2-OK, well, then, "I'll keep the tag
used for the logbook entry." =C2-When SC opened the canopy, SC remarked,
the
latch seems too tight, "I can't close it very easily." =C2-So, I took ou
t a
couple of the spacer shims. =C2-
The next day, before I got to the airport, SC took the plane.
=C2-
I got a call later that day that from SC and was told, "The canopy
doesn't close all the way. =C2-There is a lot of wind noise and I can se
e
light through the right upper corner." =C2-I suggested replacing the shi
ms.
=C2-
On Monday, I got a voice mail saying the shims were replaced and that the
windshield was still not right and that it would have to be redone. =C2
-SC
sounded like this is the worst bit of workmanship SD'd ever seen. =C2-Tr
ust
me, it's the best looking part on the plane.
OK, the only thing I can imagine is that the windshield has settled done
into the forward coving and the top of the windshield is too far forward.
=C2-I suggested that SC bring the plane back and I'd fix it. =C2-
SC: =C2-"I think you should come down here and fix it." =C2-A 3 hour
flight one way. =C2-I offered to drop the charges for the windshield by
two
hundred dollars and then SC would bring the plane to Auburn. =C2-I figur
ed
it would take about 4 or 5 hours to remove the windshield and re-fit it.
=C2- I'd fix it for no-charge. =C2-
Then, the question of the eyebrow wiring came up. =C2-SC: =C2-"I
can't afford your eyebrow. =C2-I never asked for you to change the wirin
g."
=C2-=C2-OK, fair enough. =C2-My interpretation was that SC wanted th
e
eyebrow. =C2-I should have known from previous encounters 5 or 6 yeas ag
o.
=C2-Mind fart. =C2-I told SC that I'd eat the charges on the wiring al
so.
=C2-
So, I'm offering to eat about 5 hours in current charges plus 5 hours in
projected charges to re-fit the windshield. =C2-I'm not 100% convinced S
C
ever planned to pay for the windshield installation (SC brought the windsh
ield
with the plane when the plane was brought to Auburn). =C2-
At this point, I have three choices:=C2-
(1) follow through with correcting the installation of the windshield
here in Auburn and hold the plane hostage until the invoice is
paid;=C2-
(2) Fly to SC's home base and fix the windshield there, outside, in the
sun, and pay for the fuel down and back myself and gamble on SC paying me
the
full amount after it's finished; or=C2-
(3) Cut my losses and just let SC find someone else to fix the
windshield.
The total invoice right now is around $1600. =C2-I've got about 12
hours in the removal, prep, bonding, and installing the windshield, plus,
3
hours for the wiring.
What would you do?
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Cowling Update: Really good news. |
Great news Gary, congratulations on this milestone!
Jamey
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:57 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling Update: Really good news.
I just got news that the Installation Instructions and all 76 drawings
have been approved by the FAA. Now the next step is to get the FAA to
approve the flight test, get all the test instruments certified, get a
chase plane lined up, and then go test.
In theory, the cowling should be approved within 30 to 60 days.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 6:48 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do?
A. 1) File a Claim of Lien with the FAA for the total amount due.
HYPERLINK
"http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft
_registry/record_aircraft_lien/"
\nhttp://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraf
t_registry/record_aircraft_lien/
2) Be sure to include telephone consultation charges of at least
$2 per minute and do not discount your bill. If you have not given a
written bill yet, be sure to
increase the verbal bill with a wtirtten one that includes rush
order charges and any other legitimate charges one would recieve from a
Jet repair center.
3) Also include interest on the unpaid balance...at least 18%
4) File FAA Form 8010-4 reporting the owners own words that the
windshield is not installed correctly and improper logbook. This will
help protect you
in event of owner crash and it will record and enforce the fact
that the aircraft is unairworthy in the owners own opinion
HYPERLINK "http://forms.faa.gov/forms/faa8010-4.pdf"
\nhttp://forms.faa.gov/forms/faa8010-4.pdf
or
B. Go to customer location remove winshield and all other work with most
expediant method and leave it that way...
or
C. Call Guido "the break a you legs collector";)
or
D. Install your cowl on my Tiger so I can win race. I'll do what ever it
takes to get resolution to problem,,,
----- Original Message -----
From: HYPERLINK "mailto:teamgrumman@aol.com"teamgrumman@aol.com
"mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com"teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:19 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do?
A couple of months ago, I got a call from a former customer, on who's
plane I worked about 5 years ago, to replace the windshield. At the
time, I was 6 planes deep. By the time the customer (I'll refer to the
customer as SC) brought the plane in for the windshield, I was 9 planes
deep.
I told SC that I'd get to the windshield in a couple of weeks. I wasn't
able to pull the windshield, however, until the plane had been here two
weeks already. In case you don't know the process, when using RTV 732,
that sealant/adhesive needs to cure a minimum of 3 days before it can be
installed. By the time I got the windshield bonded to the frame
(windshield bow) it was two weeks and one day. I wanted to wait a week
before installing the windshield.
I put off finishing two very good customer's planes, both in ahead of
SC, so I could get SC's plane done.
Oh, yea, SC had told me, when the plane was brought in, that it 'would
be nice to have one of my fiberglass eyebrows.' SOOOO . . While the
windshield was out, I rewired the plastic eyebrow and changed the rocker
switch on the left to two toggle switches to be used in conjunction with
the fiberglass eyebrow. In the process, I fixed the wiring to the
compass, I corrected the cabin lighting, I corrected the map light
wiring, I replaced all of the lights in the plastic eyebrow, and
replaced the missing corner panel light (red) on the right side. This
took about 3 1/2 hours. To make the necessary changes to install the
eyebrow, with the windshield in, would have taken about 5 or 6 hours.
To my way of thinking, we'd both save time. Now, a new eyebrow can
simply be plugged in.
As you may recall, the windshield I took out was a 1/8 inch thick
windshield. Fitting the thicker windshield was a bit of a challenge.
But, I did get it in. And it fit fine. I use a business card to check
the drag on the canopy seals to make sure there is an even seal all the
way around the canopy/windshield bow.
When SC picked up the plane, I was told, "Oh, I don't have any money
with me. I'll send you a check." OK, well, then, "I'll keep the tag
used for the logbook entry." When SC opened the canopy, SC remarked,
the latch seems too tight, "I can't close it very easily." So, I took
out a couple of the spacer shims.
The next day, before I got to the airport, SC took the plane.
I got a call later that day that from SC and was told, "The canopy
doesn't close all the way. There is a lot of wind noise and I can see
light through the right upper corner." I suggested replacing the shims.
On Monday, I got a voice mail saying the shims were replaced and that
the windshield was still not right and that it would have to be redone.
SC sounded like this is the worst bit of workmanship SD'd ever seen.
Trust me, it's the best looking part on the plane.
OK, the only thing I can imagine is that the windshield has settled done
into the forward coving and the top of the windshield is too far
forward. I suggested that SC bring the plane back and I'd fix it.
SC: "I think you should come down here and fix it." A 3 hour flight
one way. I offered to drop the charges for the windshield by two
hundred dollars and then SC would bring the plane to Auburn. I figured
it would take about 4 or 5 hours to remove the windshield and re-fit it.
I'd fix it for no-charge.
Then, the question of the eyebrow wiring came up. SC: "I can't afford
your eyebrow. I never asked for you to change the wiring." OK, fair
enough. My interpretation was that SC wanted the eyebrow. I should
have known from previous encounters 5 or 6 yeas ago. Mind fart. I told
SC that I'd eat the charges on the wiring also.
So, I'm offering to eat about 5 hours in current charges plus 5 hours in
projected charges to re-fit the windshield. I'm not 100% convinced SC
ever planned to pay for the windshield installation (SC brought the
windshield with the plane when the plane was brought to Auburn).
At this point, I have three choices:
(1) follow through with correcting the installation of the windshield
here in Auburn and hold the plane hostage until the invoice is paid;
(2) Fly to SC's home base and fix the windshield there, outside, in the
sun, and pay for the fuel down and back myself and gamble on SC paying
me the full amount after it's finished; or
(3) Cut my losses and just let SC find someone else to fix the
windshield.
The total invoice right now is around $1600. I've got about 12 hours in
the removal, prep, bonding, and installing the windshield, plus, 3 hours
for the wiring.
What would you do?
_____
HYPERLINK
"http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=aolcmp000500000000
11" \nGet the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, &
more!
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"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List"
\nhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="HYPERLINK "http://forums.matronics.com"
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\nhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution">HYPERLINK
"http://www.matronics.com/c" \nhttp://www.matronics.com/c
or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
p://forums.matronics.com
ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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11" \nGet the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, &
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ion
Checked by AVG.
6/18/2008 7:09 AM
Checked by AVG.
6/18/2008 7:09 AM
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Question: What would you do? |
Let's not get too rash suggesting that he post real names and such. There
are two sides to every story, and while Gary has emphasized his efforts to
make good on the situation, there did seem to be some initial
miscommunication regarding at least the eyebrow work. I'm not suggesting
blame on anyone's part. There is just a "situation" that needs to be
cleared up where each party probably feels justified in their positions and
actions to date. Let's not escalate this.
I'm not a lawyer, but it may be prudent for Gary to get an hour's worth of
consultation (with all due respect to the learned members of this message
list...!) Perhaps Gary should take measures to protect his interests, such
as a written request for payment, then the liens that someone has suggested.
Maybe he can negotiat with the customer for partial payment (at least 1/2 of
the original windshield estimate) for now as a good faith measure before any
additional travel or work is done on the plane. Take reasonable measures
first, and keep it civil as long as you can. Because when it gets to
litigation, it will likely get ugly and expensive.
On 6/18/08, teamgrumman@aol.com <teamgrumman@aol.com> wrote:
>
> what about posting the real name, n-number, and location of the plane and
> owner?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 923te <923te@att.net>
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 7:37 am
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do?
>
> I would think that just the threat of doing A.would get the thief to pay
> his bill....I'd tell him that after his check cleared then you would be
> willing to discuss not doing A and perhaps consider doing repairs......
>
> *
> *
>
> ------------------------------
> Get the Moviefone Toolbar<http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=aolcmp00050000000011>.
> Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more!
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Cowling Update: Really good news. |
WAHOO!
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:56 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling Update: Really good news.
I just got news that the Installation Instructions and all 76 drawings
have been approved by the FAA. Now the next step is to get the FAA to
approve the flight test, get all the test instruments certified, get a
chase plane lined up, and then go test.
In theory, the cowling should be approved within 30 to 60 days.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 6:48 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do?
A. 1) File a Claim of Lien with the FAA for the total amount due.
http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_
registry/record_aircraft_lien/
2) Be sure to include telephone consultation charges of at least
$2 per minute and do not discount your bill. If you have not given a
written bill yet, be sure to
increase the verbal bill with a wtirtten one that includes
rush order charges and any other legitimate charges one would recieve
from a Jet repair center.
3) Also include interest on the unpaid balance...at least 18%
4) File FAA Form 8010-4 reporting the owners own words that the
windshield is not installed correctly and improper logbook. This will
help protect you
in event of owner crash and it will record and enforce the
fact that the aircraft is unairworthy in the owners own opinion
http://forms.faa.gov/forms/faa8010-4.pdf
or
B. Go to customer location remove winshield and all other work with
most expediant method and leave it that way...
or
C. Call Guido "the break a you legs collector";)
or
D. Install your cowl on my Tiger so I can win race. I'll do what ever
it takes to get resolution to problem,,,
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:19 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do?
A couple of months ago, I got a call from a former customer, on
who's plane I worked about 5 years ago, to replace the windshield. At
the time, I was 6 planes deep. By the time the customer (I'll refer to
the customer as SC) brought the plane in for the windshield, I was 9
planes deep.
I told SC that I'd get to the windshield in a couple of weeks. I
wasn't able to pull the windshield, however, until the plane had been
here two weeks already. In case you don't know the process, when using
RTV 732, that sealant/adhesive needs to cure a minimum of 3 days before
it can be installed. By the time I got the windshield bonded to the
frame (windshield bow) it was two weeks and one day. I wanted to wait a
week before installing the windshield.
I put off finishing two very good customer's planes, both in ahead
of SC, so I could get SC's plane done.
Oh, yea, SC had told me, when the plane was brought in, that it
'would be nice to have one of my fiberglass eyebrows.' SOOOO . . While
the windshield was out, I rewired the plastic eyebrow and changed the
rocker switch on the left to two toggle switches to be used in
conjunction with the fiberglass eyebrow. In the process, I fixed the
wiring to the compass, I corrected the cabin lighting, I corrected the
map light wiring, I replaced all of the lights in the plastic eyebrow,
and replaced the missing corner panel light (red) on the right side.
This took about 3 1/2 hours. To make the necessary changes to install
the eyebrow, with the windshield in, would have taken about 5 or 6
hours. To my way of thinking, we'd both save time. Now, a new eyebrow
can simply be plugged in.
As you may recall, the windshield I took out was a 1/8 inch thick
windshield. Fitting the thicker windshield was a bit of a challenge.
But, I did get it in. And it fit fine. I use a business card to check
the drag on the canopy seals to make sure there is an even seal all the
way around the canopy/windshield bow.
When SC picked up the plane, I was told, "Oh, I don't have any money
with me. I'll send you a check." OK, well, then, "I'll keep the tag
used for the logbook entry." When SC opened the canopy, SC remarked,
the latch seems too tight, "I can't close it very easily." So, I took
out a couple of the spacer shims.
The next day, before I got to the airport, SC took the plane.
I got a call later that day that from SC and was told, "The canopy
doesn't close all the way. There is a lot of wind noise and I can see
light through the right upper corner." I suggested replacing the shims.
On Monday, I got a voice mail saying the shims were replaced and
that the windshield was still not right and that it would have to be
redone. SC sounded like this is the worst bit of workmanship SD'd ever
seen. Trust me, it's the best looking part on the plane.
OK, the only thing I can imagine is that the windshield has settled
done into the forward coving and the top of the windshield is too far
forward. I suggested that SC bring the plane back and I'd fix it.
SC: "I think you should come down here and fix it." A 3 hour
flight one way. I offered to drop the charges for the windshield by two
hundred dollars and then SC would bring the plane to Auburn. I figured
it would take about 4 or 5 hours to remove the windshield and re-fit it.
I'd fix it for no-charge.
Then, the question of the eyebrow wiring came up. SC: "I can't
afford your eyebrow. I never asked for you to change the wiring." OK,
fair enough. My interpretation was that SC wanted the eyebrow. I
should have known from previous encounters 5 or 6 yeas ago. Mind fart.
I told SC that I'd eat the charges on the wiring also.
So, I'm offering to eat about 5 hours in current charges plus 5
hours in projected charges to re-fit the windshield. I'm not 100%
convinced SC ever planned to pay for the windshield installation (SC
brought the windshield with the plane when the plane was brought to
Auburn).
At this point, I have three choices:
(1) follow through with correcting the installation of the
windshield here in Auburn and hold the plane hostage until the invoice
is paid;
(2) Fly to SC's home base and fix the windshield there, outside, in
the sun, and pay for the fuel down and back myself and gamble on SC
paying me the full amount after it's finished; or
(3) Cut my losses and just let SC find someone else to fix the
windshield.
The total invoice right now is around $1600. I've got about 12
hours in the removal, prep, bonding, and installing the windshield,
plus, 3 hours for the wiring.
What would you do?
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