---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/18/08: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:22 AM - Question: What would you do? (teamgrumman@aol.com) 2. 04:45 AM - Re: Question: What would you do? (phil) 3. 05:06 AM - Re: Question: What would you do? (linn Walters) 4. 06:51 AM - Re: Question: What would you do? (923te) 5. 07:39 AM - Re: Question: What would you do? (923te) 6. 12:24 PM - Re: Question: What would you do? (teamgrumman@aol.com) 7. 01:01 PM - Cowling Update: Really good news. (teamgrumman@aol.com) 8. 01:58 PM - Re: Cowling Update: Really good news. (James Courtney) 9. 02:33 PM - Re: Question: What would you do? (Brian Hausknecht) 10. 04:36 PM - Re: Cowling Update: Really good news. (923te) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:22:17 AM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do? From: teamgrumman@aol.com A couple of months ago, I got a call from a former customer, on who's plane I worked about 5 years ago, to replace the windshield. =C2-At the time, I was 6 planes deep. =C2-By the time the customer (I'll refer to the custome r as SC) brought the plane in for the windshield, I was 9 planes deep. =C2 - I told SC that I'd get to the windshield in a couple of weeks. =C2-I wasn' t able to pull the windshield, however, until the plane had been here two we eks already. =C2-In case you don't know the process, when using RTV 732, t hat sealant/adhesive needs to cure a minimum of 3 days before it can be inst alled. =C2-By the time I got the windshield bonded to the frame (windshiel d bow) it was two weeks and one day. =C2-I wanted to wait a week before in stalling the windshield. =C2- I put off finishing two very good customer's planes, both in ahead of SC, so I could get SC's plane done. Oh, yea, SC had told me, when the plane was brought in, that it 'would be ni ce to have one of my fiberglass eyebrows.' =C2-SOOOO . . =C2-While the w indshield was out, I rewired the plastic eyebrow and changed the rocker swit ch on the left to two toggle switches to be used in conjunction with the fib erglass eyebrow. =C2-In the process, I fixed the wiring to the compass, I corrected the cabin lighting, I corrected the map light wiring, I replaced a ll of the lights in the plastic eyebrow, and replaced the missing corner pan el light (red) on the right side. =C2-This took about 3 1/2 hours. =C2-T o make the necessary changes to install the eyebrow, with the windshield in, would have taken about 5 or 6 hours. =C2-To my way of thinking, we'd both save time. =C2-Now, a new eyebrow can simply be plugged in. =C2- As you may recall, the windshield I took out was a 1/8 inch thick windshield . =C2-Fitting the thicker windshield was a bit of a challenge. =C2-But, I did get it in. =C2-And it fit fine. =C2-I use a business card to check the drag on the canopy seals to make sure there is an even seal all the way around the canopy/windshield bow. =C2- When SC picked up the plane, I was told, "Oh, I don't have any money with me . =C2-I'll send you a check." =C2-OK, well, then, "I'll keep the tag use d for the logbook entry." =C2-When SC opened the canopy, SC remarked, the latch seems too tight, "I can't close it very easily." =C2-So, I took out a couple of the spacer shims. =C2- The next day, before I got to the airport, SC took the plane. =C2- I got a call later that day that from SC and was told, "The canopy doesn't c lose all the way. =C2-There is a lot of wind noise and I can see light thr ough the right upper corner." =C2-I suggested replacing the shims. =C2- On Monday, I got a voice mail saying the shims were replaced and that the wi ndshield was still not right and that it would have to be redone. =C2-SC s ounded like this is the worst bit of workmanship SD'd ever seen. =C2-Trust me, it's the best looking part on the plane. OK, the only thing I can imagine is that the windshield has settled done int o the forward coving and the top of the windshield is too far forward. =C2 -I suggested that SC bring the plane back and I'd fix it. =C2- SC: =C2-"I think you should come down here and fix it." =C2-A 3 hour fli ght one way. =C2-I offered to drop the charges for the windshield by two h undred dollars and then SC would bring the plane to Auburn. =C2-I figured it would take about 4 or 5 hours to remove the windshield and re-fit it. =C2- I'd fix it for no-charge. =C2- Then, the question of the eyebrow wiring came up. =C2-SC: =C2-"I can't a fford your eyebrow. =C2-I never asked for you to change the wiring." =C2 -=C2-OK, fair enough. =C2-My interpretation was that SC wanted the eye brow. =C2-I should have known from previous encounters 5 or 6 yeas ago. =C2-Mind fart. =C2-I told SC that I'd eat the charges on the wiring also . =C2- So, I'm offering to eat about 5 hours in current charges plus 5 hours in pro jected charges to re-fit the windshield. =C2-I'm not 100% convinced SC eve r planned to pay for the windshield installation (SC brought the windshield with the plane when the plane was brought to Auburn). =C2- At this point, I have three choices:=C2- (1) follow through with correcting the installation of the windshield here i n Auburn and hold the plane hostage until the invoice is paid;=C2- (2) Fly to SC's home base and fix the windshield there, outside, in the sun, and pay for the fuel down and back myself and gamble on SC paying me the fu ll amount after it's finished; or=C2- (3) Cut my losses and just let SC find someone else to fix the windshield. The total invoice right now is around $1600. =C2-I've got about 12 hours i n the removal, prep, bonding, and installing the windshield, plus, 3 hours f or the wiring. What would you do? ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:45:12 AM PST US From: "phil" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do? ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:46 AM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do? For starters, #1. I doubt that he'll bring the airplane to you, though. Then, I'd sue the sucker for the whole bill (and legal expenses, if you can), making sure the airplane couldn't leave if it did show up. Now I know that you don't really need to hear this ...... the shoe's on the other foot (AKA the annual from hell) ...... where things weren't written down. When I was a slave (OK, consultant), I had to create a huge document that described what my customer wanted and how I was going to provide it. It was part of my contract. And you know, even with that, I still got 'well, you said' ....... and a nasty letter from a lawyer (who was usually on retainer anyway). I always won, but it took time away from my customers, not to mention my money. The legal crap was a big reason why I weaned myself off of being a consultant. Linn ..... I really hate paperwork too! teamgrumman@aol.com wrote: > A couple of months ago, I got a call from a former customer, on who's > plane I worked about 5 years ago, to replace the windshield. At the > time, I was 6 planes deep. By the time the customer (I'll refer to > the customer as SC) brought the plane in for the windshield, I was 9 > planes deep. > > I told SC that I'd get to the windshield in a couple of weeks. I > wasn't able to pull the windshield, however, until the plane had been > here two weeks already. In case you don't know the process, when > using RTV 732, that sealant/adhesive needs to cure a minimum of 3 days > before it can be installed. By the time I got the windshield bonded > to the frame (windshield bow) it was two weeks and one day. I wanted > to wait a week before installing the windshield. > > I put off finishing two very good customer's planes, both in ahead of > SC, so I could get SC's plane done. > > Oh, yea, SC had told me, when the plane was brought in, that it 'would > be nice to have one of my fiberglass eyebrows.' SOOOO . . While the > windshield was out, I rewired the plastic eyebrow and changed the > rocker switch on the left to two toggle switches to be used in > conjunction with the fiberglass eyebrow. In the process, I fixed the > wiring to the compass, I corrected the cabin lighting, I corrected the > map light wiring, I replaced all of the lights in the plastic eyebrow, > and replaced the missing corner panel light (red) on the right side. > This took about 3 1/2 hours. To make the necessary changes to > install the eyebrow, with the windshield in, would have taken about 5 > or 6 hours. To my way of thinking, we'd both save time. Now, a new > eyebrow can simply be plugged in. > > As you may recall, the windshield I took out was a 1/8 inch thick > windshield. Fitting the thicker windshield was a bit of a challenge. > But, I did get it in. And it fit fine. I use a business card to > check the drag on the canopy seals to make sure there is an even seal > all the way around the canopy/windshield bow. > > When SC picked up the plane, I was told, "Oh, I don't have any money > with me. I'll send you a check." OK, well, then, "I'll keep the tag > used for the logbook entry." When SC opened the canopy, SC remarked, > the latch seems too tight, "I can't close it very easily." So, I took > out a couple of the spacer shims. > > The next day, before I got to the airport, SC took the plane. > > I got a call later that day that from SC and was told, "The canopy > doesn't close all the way. There is a lot of wind noise and I can see > light through the right upper corner." I suggested replacing the shims. > > On Monday, I got a voice mail saying the shims were replaced and that > the windshield was still not right and that it would have to be > redone. SC sounded like this is the worst bit of workmanship SD'd > ever seen. Trust me, it's the best looking part on the plane. > > OK, the only thing I can imagine is that the windshield has settled > done into the forward coving and the top of the windshield is too far > forward. I suggested that SC bring the plane back and I'd fix it. > > SC: "I think you should come down here and fix it." A 3 hour flight > one way. I offered to drop the charges for the windshield by two > hundred dollars and then SC would bring the plane to Auburn. I > figured it would take about 4 or 5 hours to remove the windshield and > re-fit it. I'd fix it for no-charge. > > Then, the question of the eyebrow wiring came up. SC: "I can't > afford your eyebrow. I never asked for you to change the wiring." > OK, fair enough. My interpretation was that SC wanted the eyebrow. > I should have known from previous encounters 5 or 6 yeas ago. Mind > fart. I told SC that I'd eat the charges on the wiring also. > > So, I'm offering to eat about 5 hours in current charges plus 5 hours > in projected charges to re-fit the windshield. I'm not 100% convinced > SC ever planned to pay for the windshield installation (SC brought the > windshield with the plane when the plane was brought to Auburn). > > At this point, I have three choices: > (1) follow through with correcting the installation of the windshield > here in Auburn and hold the plane hostage until the invoice is paid; > (2) Fly to SC's home base and fix the windshield there, outside, in > the sun, and pay for the fuel down and back myself and gamble on SC > paying me the full amount after it's finished; or > (3) Cut my losses and just let SC find someone else to fix the windshield. > > The total invoice right now is around $1600. I've got about 12 hours > in the removal, prep, bonding, and installing the windshield, plus, 3 > hours for the wiring. > > What would you do? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get the Moviefone Toolbar > . > Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:16 AM PST US From: "923te" <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do? A. 1) File a Claim of Lien with the FAA for the total amount due. http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_ registry/record_aircraft_lien/ 2) Be sure to include telephone consultation charges of at least $2 per minute and do not discount your bill. If you have not given a written bill yet, be sure to increase the verbal bill with a wtirtten one that includes rush order charges and any other legitimate charges one would recieve from a Jet repair center. 3) Also include interest on the unpaid balance...at least 18% 4) File FAA Form 8010-4 reporting the owners own words that the windshield is not installed correctly and improper logbook. This will help protect you in event of owner crash and it will record and enforce the fact that the aircraft is unairworthy in the owners own opinion http://forms.faa.gov/forms/faa8010-4.pdf or B. Go to customer location remove winshield and all other work with most expediant method and leave it that way... or C. Call Guido "the break a you legs collector";) or D. Install your cowl on my Tiger so I can win race. I'll do what ever it takes to get resolution to problem,,, ----- Original Message ----- From: teamgrumman@aol.com To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:19 AM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do? A couple of months ago, I got a call from a former customer, on who's plane I worked about 5 years ago, to replace the windshield. At the time, I was 6 planes deep. By the time the customer (I'll refer to the customer as SC) brought the plane in for the windshield, I was 9 planes deep. I told SC that I'd get to the windshield in a couple of weeks. I wasn't able to pull the windshield, however, until the plane had been here two weeks already. In case you don't know the process, when using RTV 732, that sealant/adhesive needs to cure a minimum of 3 days before it can be installed. By the time I got the windshield bonded to the frame (windshield bow) it was two weeks and one day. I wanted to wait a week before installing the windshield. I put off finishing two very good customer's planes, both in ahead of SC, so I could get SC's plane done. Oh, yea, SC had told me, when the plane was brought in, that it 'would be nice to have one of my fiberglass eyebrows.' SOOOO . . While the windshield was out, I rewired the plastic eyebrow and changed the rocker switch on the left to two toggle switches to be used in conjunction with the fiberglass eyebrow. In the process, I fixed the wiring to the compass, I corrected the cabin lighting, I corrected the map light wiring, I replaced all of the lights in the plastic eyebrow, and replaced the missing corner panel light (red) on the right side. This took about 3 1/2 hours. To make the necessary changes to install the eyebrow, with the windshield in, would have taken about 5 or 6 hours. To my way of thinking, we'd both save time. Now, a new eyebrow can simply be plugged in. As you may recall, the windshield I took out was a 1/8 inch thick windshield. Fitting the thicker windshield was a bit of a challenge. But, I did get it in. And it fit fine. I use a business card to check the drag on the canopy seals to make sure there is an even seal all the way around the canopy/windshield bow. When SC picked up the plane, I was told, "Oh, I don't have any money with me. I'll send you a check." OK, well, then, "I'll keep the tag used for the logbook entry." When SC opened the canopy, SC remarked, the latch seems too tight, "I can't close it very easily." So, I took out a couple of the spacer shims. The next day, before I got to the airport, SC took the plane. I got a call later that day that from SC and was told, "The canopy doesn't close all the way. There is a lot of wind noise and I can see light through the right upper corner." I suggested replacing the shims. On Monday, I got a voice mail saying the shims were replaced and that the windshield was still not right and that it would have to be redone. SC sounded like this is the worst bit of workmanship SD'd ever seen. Trust me, it's the best looking part on the plane. OK, the only thing I can imagine is that the windshield has settled done into the forward coving and the top of the windshield is too far forward. I suggested that SC bring the plane back and I'd fix it. SC: "I think you should come down here and fix it." A 3 hour flight one way. I offered to drop the charges for the windshield by two hundred dollars and then SC would bring the plane to Auburn. I figured it would take about 4 or 5 hours to remove the windshield and re-fit it. I'd fix it for no-charge. Then, the question of the eyebrow wiring came up. SC: "I can't afford your eyebrow. I never asked for you to change the wiring." OK, fair enough. My interpretation was that SC wanted the eyebrow. I should have known from previous encounters 5 or 6 yeas ago. Mind fart. I told SC that I'd eat the charges on the wiring also. So, I'm offering to eat about 5 hours in current charges plus 5 hours in projected charges to re-fit the windshield. I'm not 100% convinced SC ever planned to pay for the windshield installation (SC brought the windshield with the plane when the plane was brought to Auburn). At this point, I have three choices: (1) follow through with correcting the installation of the windshield here in Auburn and hold the plane hostage until the invoice is paid; (2) Fly to SC's home base and fix the windshield there, outside, in the sun, and pay for the fuel down and back myself and gamble on SC paying me the full amount after it's finished; or (3) Cut my losses and just let SC find someone else to fix the windshield. The total invoice right now is around $1600. I've got about 12 hours in the removal, prep, bonding, and installing the windshield, plus, 3 hours for the wiring. What would you do? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:28 AM PST US From: "923te" <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do? I would think that just the threat of doing A.would get the thief to pay his bill....I'd tell him that after his check cleared then you would be willing to discuss not doing A and perhaps consider doing repairs...... ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:24:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do? From: teamgrumman@aol.com what about posting the real name, n-number, and location of the plane and owner? -----Original Message----- From: 923te <923te@att.net> Sent: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 7:37 am Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do? I would think that just the threat of doing A.would get the thief to pay his bill....I'd tell him that after his check cleared then you would be willing to discuss not doing A and perhaps consider doing repairs...... ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:01:39 PM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling Update: Really good news. From: teamgrumman@aol.com I just got news that the Installation Instructions and all 76 drawings have been approved by the FAA. =C2-Now the next step is to get the FAA to appro ve the flight test, get all the test instruments certified, get a chase plan e lined up, and then go test. =C2- In theory, the cowling should be approved within 30 to 60 days. =C2- -----Original Message----- From: 923te <923te@att.net> Sent: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 6:48 am Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do? A. 1) File a Claim of Lien with the FAA for the total amount due. http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_cert ification/aircraft_registry/record_aircraft_lien/ =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- 2)=C2-Be sure to=C2- include telephone consultation charges of at least $2=C2- per min ute and do not discount your bill. If you have not given a written bill yet, be sure to =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-increase the verbal bill with a wtirtten one that includes rush order charges and any other legitimate charges one would recieve from a Jet repair center. =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- 3)=C2-Also include interest on the unpaid balance...at least 18% =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- 4) File FAA Form 8010-4 reporting the owners own words that the windshield is not installed correctly and improper logbook. This will help protect=C2-you =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- in=C2-event of owner crash and it will=C2-record and enforce the fact th at the=C2-aircraft is=C2-unairworthy in the owners own opinion =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-http://forms.faa.gov/forms/faa8010-4.pdf =C2- or =C2- B. Go to customer location remove winshield and all other work with most expediant method and leave=C2-it that way... =C2- or =C2- C. Call Guido "the break a you legs collector";) =C2- or =C2- D. Install your cowl on my Tiger so I can win race. I'll do what ever it takes to get resolution to problem,,, =C2- ----- Original Message ----- From: teamgrumman@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:19 AM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do? A couple of months ago, I got a call from a former customer, on who's plane I worked about 5 years ago, to replace the windshield. =C2-At the time, I was 6 planes deep. =C2-By the time the customer (I'll refer to the customer as SC) brought the plane in for the windshield, I was 9 planes deep. =C2- I told SC that I'd get to the windshield in a couple of weeks. =C2-I wasn't able to pull the windshield, however, until the plane had been here two weeks already. =C2-In case you don't know the process, when using RTV 73 2, that sealant/adhesive needs to cure a minimum of 3 days before it can be installed. =C2-By the time I got the windshield bonded to the frame (windshield bow) it was two weeks and one day. =C2-I wanted to wait a we ek before installing the windshield. =C2- I put off finishing two very good customer's planes, both in ahead of SC, so I could get SC's plane done. Oh, yea, SC had told me, when the plane was brought in, that it 'would be nice to have one of my fiberglass eyebrows.' =C2-SOOOO . . =C2-While t he windshield was out, I rewired the plastic eyebrow and changed the rocker switch on the left to two toggle switches to be used in conjunction with t he fiberglass eyebrow. =C2-In the process, I fixed the wiring to the compas s, I corrected the cabin lighting, I corrected the map light wiring, I replaced all of the lights in the plastic eyebrow, and replaced the missing corner pane l light (red) on the right side. =C2-This took about 3 1/2 hours. =C2-To make the necessary changes to install the eyebrow, with the windshield in, would have taken about 5 or 6 hours. =C2-To my way of thinking, we'd bot h save time. =C2-Now, a new eyebrow can simply be plugged in. =C2- As you may recall, the windshield I took out was a 1/8 inch thick windshield. =C2-Fitting the thicker windshield was a bit of a challenge. =C2-But, I did get it in. =C2-And it fit fine. =C2-I use a business card to check the drag on the canopy seals to make sure there is an even seal a ll the way around the canopy/windshield bow. =C2- When SC picked up the plane, I was told, "Oh, I don't have any money with me. =C2-I'll send you a check." =C2-OK, well, then, "I'll keep the tag used for the logbook entry." =C2-When SC opened the canopy, SC remarked, the latch seems too tight, "I can't close it very easily." =C2-So, I took ou t a couple of the spacer shims. =C2- The next day, before I got to the airport, SC took the plane. =C2- I got a call later that day that from SC and was told, "The canopy doesn't close all the way. =C2-There is a lot of wind noise and I can se e light through the right upper corner." =C2-I suggested replacing the shi ms. =C2- On Monday, I got a voice mail saying the shims were replaced and that the windshield was still not right and that it would have to be redone. =C2 -SC sounded like this is the worst bit of workmanship SD'd ever seen. =C2-Tr ust me, it's the best looking part on the plane. OK, the only thing I can imagine is that the windshield has settled done into the forward coving and the top of the windshield is too far forward. =C2-I suggested that SC bring the plane back and I'd fix it. =C2- SC: =C2-"I think you should come down here and fix it." =C2-A 3 hour flight one way. =C2-I offered to drop the charges for the windshield by two hundred dollars and then SC would bring the plane to Auburn. =C2-I figur ed it would take about 4 or 5 hours to remove the windshield and re-fit it. =C2- I'd fix it for no-charge. =C2- Then, the question of the eyebrow wiring came up. =C2-SC: =C2-"I can't afford your eyebrow. =C2-I never asked for you to change the wirin g." =C2-=C2-OK, fair enough. =C2-My interpretation was that SC wanted th e eyebrow. =C2-I should have known from previous encounters 5 or 6 yeas ag o. =C2-Mind fart. =C2-I told SC that I'd eat the charges on the wiring al so. =C2- So, I'm offering to eat about 5 hours in current charges plus 5 hours in projected charges to re-fit the windshield. =C2-I'm not 100% convinced S C ever planned to pay for the windshield installation (SC brought the windsh ield with the plane when the plane was brought to Auburn). =C2- At this point, I have three choices:=C2- (1) follow through with correcting the installation of the windshield here in Auburn and hold the plane hostage until the invoice is paid;=C2- (2) Fly to SC's home base and fix the windshield there, outside, in the sun, and pay for the fuel down and back myself and gamble on SC paying me the full amount after it's finished; or=C2- (3) Cut my losses and just let SC find someone else to fix the windshield. The total invoice right now is around $1600. =C2-I've got about 12 hours in the removal, prep, bonding, and installing the windshield, plus, 3 hours for the wiring. What would you do? Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:58:33 PM PST US From: "James Courtney" Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling Update: Really good news. Great news Gary, congratulations on this milestone! Jamey From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of teamgrumman@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 12:57 PM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling Update: Really good news. I just got news that the Installation Instructions and all 76 drawings have been approved by the FAA. Now the next step is to get the FAA to approve the flight test, get all the test instruments certified, get a chase plane lined up, and then go test. In theory, the cowling should be approved within 30 to 60 days. -----Original Message----- From: 923te <923te@att.net> Sent: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 6:48 am Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do? A. 1) File a Claim of Lien with the FAA for the total amount due. HYPERLINK "http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft _registry/record_aircraft_lien/" \nhttp://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraf t_registry/record_aircraft_lien/ 2) Be sure to include telephone consultation charges of at least $2 per minute and do not discount your bill. If you have not given a written bill yet, be sure to increase the verbal bill with a wtirtten one that includes rush order charges and any other legitimate charges one would recieve from a Jet repair center. 3) Also include interest on the unpaid balance...at least 18% 4) File FAA Form 8010-4 reporting the owners own words that the windshield is not installed correctly and improper logbook. This will help protect you in event of owner crash and it will record and enforce the fact that the aircraft is unairworthy in the owners own opinion HYPERLINK "http://forms.faa.gov/forms/faa8010-4.pdf" \nhttp://forms.faa.gov/forms/faa8010-4.pdf or B. Go to customer location remove winshield and all other work with most expediant method and leave it that way... or C. Call Guido "the break a you legs collector";) or D. Install your cowl on my Tiger so I can win race. I'll do what ever it takes to get resolution to problem,,, ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:teamgrumman@aol.com"teamgrumman@aol.com "mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com"teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:19 AM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do? A couple of months ago, I got a call from a former customer, on who's plane I worked about 5 years ago, to replace the windshield. At the time, I was 6 planes deep. By the time the customer (I'll refer to the customer as SC) brought the plane in for the windshield, I was 9 planes deep. I told SC that I'd get to the windshield in a couple of weeks. I wasn't able to pull the windshield, however, until the plane had been here two weeks already. In case you don't know the process, when using RTV 732, that sealant/adhesive needs to cure a minimum of 3 days before it can be installed. By the time I got the windshield bonded to the frame (windshield bow) it was two weeks and one day. I wanted to wait a week before installing the windshield. I put off finishing two very good customer's planes, both in ahead of SC, so I could get SC's plane done. Oh, yea, SC had told me, when the plane was brought in, that it 'would be nice to have one of my fiberglass eyebrows.' SOOOO . . While the windshield was out, I rewired the plastic eyebrow and changed the rocker switch on the left to two toggle switches to be used in conjunction with the fiberglass eyebrow. In the process, I fixed the wiring to the compass, I corrected the cabin lighting, I corrected the map light wiring, I replaced all of the lights in the plastic eyebrow, and replaced the missing corner panel light (red) on the right side. This took about 3 1/2 hours. To make the necessary changes to install the eyebrow, with the windshield in, would have taken about 5 or 6 hours. To my way of thinking, we'd both save time. Now, a new eyebrow can simply be plugged in. As you may recall, the windshield I took out was a 1/8 inch thick windshield. Fitting the thicker windshield was a bit of a challenge. But, I did get it in. And it fit fine. I use a business card to check the drag on the canopy seals to make sure there is an even seal all the way around the canopy/windshield bow. When SC picked up the plane, I was told, "Oh, I don't have any money with me. I'll send you a check." OK, well, then, "I'll keep the tag used for the logbook entry." When SC opened the canopy, SC remarked, the latch seems too tight, "I can't close it very easily." So, I took out a couple of the spacer shims. The next day, before I got to the airport, SC took the plane. I got a call later that day that from SC and was told, "The canopy doesn't close all the way. There is a lot of wind noise and I can see light through the right upper corner." I suggested replacing the shims. On Monday, I got a voice mail saying the shims were replaced and that the windshield was still not right and that it would have to be redone. SC sounded like this is the worst bit of workmanship SD'd ever seen. Trust me, it's the best looking part on the plane. OK, the only thing I can imagine is that the windshield has settled done into the forward coving and the top of the windshield is too far forward. I suggested that SC bring the plane back and I'd fix it. SC: "I think you should come down here and fix it." A 3 hour flight one way. I offered to drop the charges for the windshield by two hundred dollars and then SC would bring the plane to Auburn. I figured it would take about 4 or 5 hours to remove the windshield and re-fit it. I'd fix it for no-charge. Then, the question of the eyebrow wiring came up. SC: "I can't afford your eyebrow. I never asked for you to change the wiring." OK, fair enough. My interpretation was that SC wanted the eyebrow. I should have known from previous encounters 5 or 6 yeas ago. Mind fart. I told SC that I'd eat the charges on the wiring also. So, I'm offering to eat about 5 hours in current charges plus 5 hours in projected charges to re-fit the windshield. I'm not 100% convinced SC ever planned to pay for the windshield installation (SC brought the windshield with the plane when the plane was brought to Auburn). At this point, I have three choices: (1) follow through with correcting the installation of the windshield here in Auburn and hold the plane hostage until the invoice is paid; (2) Fly to SC's home base and fix the windshield there, outside, in the sun, and pay for the fuel down and back myself and gamble on SC paying me the full amount after it's finished; or (3) Cut my losses and just let SC find someone else to fix the windshield. The total invoice right now is around $1600. I've got about 12 hours in the removal, prep, bonding, and installing the windshield, plus, 3 hours for the wiring. What would you do? _____ HYPERLINK "http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=aolcmp000500000000 11" \nGet the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! href="HYPERLINK "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List" \nhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">HYPERLINK "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List" \nhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List href="HYPERLINK "http://forums.matronics.com" \nhttp://forums.matronics.com">HYPERLINK "http://forums.matronics.com" \nhttp://forums.matronics.com href="HYPERLINK "http://www.matronics.com/contribution" \nhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution">HYPERLINK "http://www.matronics.com/c" \nhttp://www.matronics.com/c or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List p://forums.matronics.com ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ HYPERLINK "http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=aolcmp000500000000 11" \nGet the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List"http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribut ion Checked by AVG. 6/18/2008 7:09 AM Checked by AVG. 6/18/2008 7:09 AM ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:33:41 PM PST US From: "Brian Hausknecht" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do? Let's not get too rash suggesting that he post real names and such. There are two sides to every story, and while Gary has emphasized his efforts to make good on the situation, there did seem to be some initial miscommunication regarding at least the eyebrow work. I'm not suggesting blame on anyone's part. There is just a "situation" that needs to be cleared up where each party probably feels justified in their positions and actions to date. Let's not escalate this. I'm not a lawyer, but it may be prudent for Gary to get an hour's worth of consultation (with all due respect to the learned members of this message list...!) Perhaps Gary should take measures to protect his interests, such as a written request for payment, then the liens that someone has suggested. Maybe he can negotiat with the customer for partial payment (at least 1/2 of the original windshield estimate) for now as a good faith measure before any additional travel or work is done on the plane. Take reasonable measures first, and keep it civil as long as you can. Because when it gets to litigation, it will likely get ugly and expensive. On 6/18/08, teamgrumman@aol.com wrote: > > what about posting the real name, n-number, and location of the plane and > owner? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: 923te <923te@att.net> > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 7:37 am > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do? > > I would think that just the threat of doing A.would get the thief to pay > his bill....I'd tell him that after his check cleared then you would be > willing to discuss not doing A and perhaps consider doing repairs...... > > * > * > > ------------------------------ > Get the Moviefone Toolbar. > Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:50 PM PST US From: "923te" <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling Update: Really good news. WAHOO! ----- Original Message ----- From: teamgrumman@aol.com To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:56 PM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling Update: Really good news. I just got news that the Installation Instructions and all 76 drawings have been approved by the FAA. Now the next step is to get the FAA to approve the flight test, get all the test instruments certified, get a chase plane lined up, and then go test. In theory, the cowling should be approved within 30 to 60 days. -----Original Message----- From: 923te <923te@att.net> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 6:48 am Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do? A. 1) File a Claim of Lien with the FAA for the total amount due. http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_ registry/record_aircraft_lien/ 2) Be sure to include telephone consultation charges of at least $2 per minute and do not discount your bill. If you have not given a written bill yet, be sure to increase the verbal bill with a wtirtten one that includes rush order charges and any other legitimate charges one would recieve from a Jet repair center. 3) Also include interest on the unpaid balance...at least 18% 4) File FAA Form 8010-4 reporting the owners own words that the windshield is not installed correctly and improper logbook. This will help protect you in event of owner crash and it will record and enforce the fact that the aircraft is unairworthy in the owners own opinion http://forms.faa.gov/forms/faa8010-4.pdf or B. Go to customer location remove winshield and all other work with most expediant method and leave it that way... or C. Call Guido "the break a you legs collector";) or D. Install your cowl on my Tiger so I can win race. I'll do what ever it takes to get resolution to problem,,, ----- Original Message ----- From: teamgrumman@aol.com To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 3:19 AM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Question: What would you do? A couple of months ago, I got a call from a former customer, on who's plane I worked about 5 years ago, to replace the windshield. At the time, I was 6 planes deep. By the time the customer (I'll refer to the customer as SC) brought the plane in for the windshield, I was 9 planes deep. I told SC that I'd get to the windshield in a couple of weeks. I wasn't able to pull the windshield, however, until the plane had been here two weeks already. In case you don't know the process, when using RTV 732, that sealant/adhesive needs to cure a minimum of 3 days before it can be installed. By the time I got the windshield bonded to the frame (windshield bow) it was two weeks and one day. I wanted to wait a week before installing the windshield. I put off finishing two very good customer's planes, both in ahead of SC, so I could get SC's plane done. Oh, yea, SC had told me, when the plane was brought in, that it 'would be nice to have one of my fiberglass eyebrows.' SOOOO . . While the windshield was out, I rewired the plastic eyebrow and changed the rocker switch on the left to two toggle switches to be used in conjunction with the fiberglass eyebrow. In the process, I fixed the wiring to the compass, I corrected the cabin lighting, I corrected the map light wiring, I replaced all of the lights in the plastic eyebrow, and replaced the missing corner panel light (red) on the right side. This took about 3 1/2 hours. To make the necessary changes to install the eyebrow, with the windshield in, would have taken about 5 or 6 hours. To my way of thinking, we'd both save time. Now, a new eyebrow can simply be plugged in. As you may recall, the windshield I took out was a 1/8 inch thick windshield. Fitting the thicker windshield was a bit of a challenge. But, I did get it in. And it fit fine. I use a business card to check the drag on the canopy seals to make sure there is an even seal all the way around the canopy/windshield bow. When SC picked up the plane, I was told, "Oh, I don't have any money with me. I'll send you a check." OK, well, then, "I'll keep the tag used for the logbook entry." When SC opened the canopy, SC remarked, the latch seems too tight, "I can't close it very easily." So, I took out a couple of the spacer shims. The next day, before I got to the airport, SC took the plane. I got a call later that day that from SC and was told, "The canopy doesn't close all the way. There is a lot of wind noise and I can see light through the right upper corner." I suggested replacing the shims. On Monday, I got a voice mail saying the shims were replaced and that the windshield was still not right and that it would have to be redone. SC sounded like this is the worst bit of workmanship SD'd ever seen. Trust me, it's the best looking part on the plane. OK, the only thing I can imagine is that the windshield has settled done into the forward coving and the top of the windshield is too far forward. I suggested that SC bring the plane back and I'd fix it. SC: "I think you should come down here and fix it." A 3 hour flight one way. I offered to drop the charges for the windshield by two hundred dollars and then SC would bring the plane to Auburn. I figured it would take about 4 or 5 hours to remove the windshield and re-fit it. I'd fix it for no-charge. Then, the question of the eyebrow wiring came up. SC: "I can't afford your eyebrow. I never asked for you to change the wiring." OK, fair enough. My interpretation was that SC wanted the eyebrow. I should have known from previous encounters 5 or 6 yeas ago. Mind fart. I told SC that I'd eat the charges on the wiring also. So, I'm offering to eat about 5 hours in current charges plus 5 hours in projected charges to re-fit the windshield. I'm not 100% convinced SC ever planned to pay for the windshield installation (SC brought the windshield with the plane when the plane was brought to Auburn). At this point, I have three choices: (1) follow through with correcting the installation of the windshield here in Auburn and hold the plane hostage until the invoice is paid; (2) Fly to SC's home base and fix the windshield there, outside, in the sun, and pay for the fuel down and back myself and gamble on SC paying me the full amount after it's finished; or (3) Cut my losses and just let SC find someone else to fix the windshield. The total invoice right now is around $1600. I've got about 12 hours in the removal, prep, bonding, and installing the windshield, plus, 3 hours for the wiring. What would you do? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Get the Moviefone Toolbar. 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