Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:12 AM - Instrument panel overlays (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
2. 02:42 AM - Re: overheating Tiger (Jason Bowman)
3. 04:58 AM - Re: Instrument panel overlays (linn Walters)
4. 05:35 AM - Re: Instrument panel overlays (Steve Roberts)
5. 06:54 AM - Re: Instrument panel overlays (n26390@aol.com)
6. 09:17 AM - Re: overheating TIger (Lawrence Massaro)
7. 01:14 PM - Re: overheating TIger (teamgrumman@aol.com)
8. 01:55 PM - Re: overheating TIger (Hosler, John)
9. 02:13 PM - Re: overheating TIger (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
10. 03:37 PM - Re: overheating TIger (flyv35b)
11. 04:41 PM - Re: overheating TIger (923te)
12. 07:02 PM - Re: Instrument panel overlays (n32romeo@aol.com)
13. 09:52 PM - Re: Overheating in climb (brian sandberg)
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| Subject: | Instrument panel overlays |
I have pics. =C2-Rather than going back through all of the emails I've rec
eived, send me another and I'll forward the email with the pics to you. =C2
-
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| Subject: | Re: overheating Tiger |
There was a guy here in Ohio with a similar problem. After a lot of exploration,
it finally took testing the differential pressure across the cylinders to determine
that there was a baffling problem somewhere.
Not that I'm an expert, but I'm told that the baffling on Grummans can look Ok
but not be - there can be some less than obvious gaps. Might there be something
on Bondline about checking the baffling for Grumman-specific problems? If
it's not the baffling, at least you have some peace of mind and did some preventative
maintenance, which is never bad!
Jason
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| Subject: | Re: Instrument panel overlays |
I don't know if our list qualifies, but some of the Matronics lists I'm
on allow photo attachments ....... but they're stripped off when it goes
into the archives. You might try!!!
Linn
teamgrumman@aol.com wrote:
> I have pics. Rather than going back through all of the emails I've
> received, send me another and I'll forward the email with the pics to
> you.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
>
> *
>
>
> *
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| Subject: | Instrument panel overlays |
The AYA forum allows pics. Nothing gets stripped away. No list Nazi... The
photos there are actually stored on the user's site and linked to the forum
. I keep mine at photobucket.com/aa1bflyboy
Steve Roberts AA1B - 641HY @ ILG AYA Region 2 Director/Forum Admin We shall
not cease from exploration. And at the end of all our exploring Will be to
arrive were we started And know the place for the first time - T. S. Eliot
> Date: Fri=2C 23 Jan 2009 07:56:57 -0500> From: pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Instrum
<pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>> > I don't know if our list qualifies=2C but so
me of the Matronics lists I'm > on allow photo attachments ....... but they
're stripped off when it goes > into the archives. You might try!!!> Linn>
> teamgrumman@aol.com wrote:> > I have pics. Rather than going back through
all of the emails I've > > received=2C send me another and I'll forward th
e email with the pics to > > you. > >> > ----------------------------------
--------------------------------------> > *A Good Credit Score is 700 or Ab
=============> > >
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| Subject: | Re: Instrument panel overlays |
Please send pics.? Thanks!
Roger Rucker
AA5A '78 HWO
-----Original Message-----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 4:11 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Instrument panel overlays
I have pics. ?Rather than going back through all of the emails I've received, send
me another and I'll forward the email with the pics to you. ?
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
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| Subject: | Re: overheating TIger |
No answers, but some additional info to digest...
I have just "upgraded" to a short stack from the standard DD
powerflow and have noticed the following:
1) Increased climb rate (Id estimate 20% better based on various
weight configs)
2) Higher CHTs (about 30 deg) on climbout. I also climb at 80kts
rule of thumb.
Perhaps the short stack is better matched than my previous Classic PF
or whatever, but higher climb rates to me translate tell me Im
generating more HP, which translates into more heat? No? I haven't
noticed any significant differences at cruise power settings.
My standard departure profile is to climb out at 80 until 1000AGL
(~1000 ft/min), then reduce pitch for a 500-750 ft/min climb which
increases my a/s and keeps things cool.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: overheating TIger |
Vy at sea level is 90 knots. =C2-I typically climb out at 105 to 110 knots
. =C2-THere really isn't anything to be gained by power climbing. =C2-Al
l you are doing is lifting weight and wasting fuel. =C2-
With the new cowling, #1 will run hottest during a climb.
Maybe none of you know this, but, the climb cooling certification portion of
the flight testing is NOT done from the take off roll. =C2-Climb cooling
is done from stabilized flight at 1000 feet at 75% power with the CHTs stabi
lized for 5 minutes. =C2-Then climb at Vy is established. =C2-
If you want to climb at high angles of attack, get a Maule.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Massaro <lmassaro@tac-eng.com>
Sent: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 9:14 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: overheating TIger
om>=C2-
=C2-
No answers, but some additional info to digest...=C2-
=C2-
I have just "upgraded" to a short stack from the standard DD
powerflow and have noticed the following:=C2-
1) Increased climb rate (Id estimate 20% better based on various
weight configs)=C2-
2) Higher CHTs (about 30 deg) on climbout. I also climb at 80kts
rule of thumb.=C2-
=C2-
Perhaps the short stack is better matched than my previous Classic PF
or whatever, but higher climb rates to me translate tell me Im
generating more HP, which translates into more heat? No? I haven't
noticed any
significant differences at cruise power settings.=C2-
My standard departure profile is to climb out at 80 until 1000AGL
(~1000 ft/min), then reduce pitch for a 500-750 ft/min climb which
increases my a/s and keeps things cool.=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
============C2-
============C2-
============C2-
http://www.matronics.com/contribution=C2-
============C2-
=C2-
=C2-
Message 8
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| Subject: | overheating TIger |
Is the high CHT the result of the new cowling or the power flow exhaust?
Does the new cowling require installation of the power flow exhaust?
80 knots till you clear the trees is pretty normal, then 90-110.
________________________________
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: overheating TIger
Vy at sea level is 90 knots. I typically climb out at 105 to 110 knots.
THere really isn't anything to be gained by power climbing. All you are
doing is lifting weight and wasting fuel.
With the new cowling, #1 will run hottest during a climb.
Maybe none of you know this, but, the climb cooling certification
portion of the flight testing is NOT done from the take off roll. Climb
cooling is done from stabilized flight at 1000 feet at 75% power with
the CHTs stabilized for 5 minutes. Then climb at Vy is established.
If you want to climb at high angles of attack, get a Maule.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Massaro <lmassaro@tac-eng.com>
Sent: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 9:14 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: overheating TIger
<lmassaro@tac-eng.com>
No answers, but some additional info to digest...
I have just "upgraded" to a short stack from the standard DD powerflow
and have noticed the following:
1) Increased climb rate (Id estimate 20% better based on various weight
configs)
2) Higher CHTs (about 30 deg) on cl imbout. I also climb at 80kts rule
of thumb.
Perhaps the short stack is better matched than my previous Classic PF or
whatever, but higher climb rates to me translate tell me Im generating
more HP, which translates into more heat? No? I haven't noticed any
significant differences at cruise power settings.
My standard departure profile is to climb out at 80 until 1000AGL (~1000
ft/min), then reduce pitch for a 500-750 ft/min climb which increases my
a/s and keeps things cool.
===========
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| Subject: | Re: overheating TIger |
and if there are no trees?
this was a stock 2005 Tiger onto which In installed a Power Flow.
Yes, my cowling requires the Power Flow.
-----Original Message-----
From: Hosler, John <JHOSLER@epri.com>
Sent: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 1:53 pm
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: overheating TIger
Is the high CHT the result of the new cowling or=C2-the power
flow exhaust?
=C2-
Does the new cowling require installation of the power flow
exhaust?
=C2-
80 knots till you clear the trees is pretty normal, then
90-110.
From:
owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 4:11
PM
Subject: Re:
TeamGrumman-List: overheating TIger
Vy at sea level is 90 knots. =C2-I typically climb out at 105 to
110 knots. =C2-THere really isn't anything to be gained by power climbing.
=C2-All you are doing is lifting weight and wasting fuel. =C2-
With the new cowling, #1 will run hottest during a climb.
Maybe none of you know this, but, the climb cooling certification portion
of the flight testing is NOT done from the take off roll. =C2-Climb coolin
g is
done from stabilized flight at 1000 feet at 75% power with the CHTs stabiliz
ed
for 5 minutes. =C2-Then climb at Vy is established. =C2-
If you want to climb at high angles of20attack, get a
Maule.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Massaro
<lmassaro@tac-eng.com>
Sent: Fri,
23 Jan 2009 9:14 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: overheating TIger
-->
TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Lawrence Massaro <lmassaro@tac-eng.com>
=C2-
=C2-
No
answers, but some additional info to digest...=C2-
=C2-
I have just
"upgraded" to a short stack from the standard DD powerflow and have noticed
the
following:=C2-
1) Increased climb rate (Id estimate 20% better based on
various weight configs)=C2-
2) Higher CHTs (about 30 deg) on cl imbout. I
also climb at 80kts rule of thumb.=C2-
=C2-
Perhaps the short stack is
better matched than my previous Classic PF or whatever, but higher climb rat
es
to me translate tell me Im generating more HP, which translates into more he
at?
No? I haven't noticed any significant differences at cruise power
settings.=C2-
My standard departure profile is to climb out at 80 until
1000AGL (~1000 ft/min), then reduce pitch for a 500-750 ft/min climb which
increases my a/s and keeps things
cool.=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
============C2-
t"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=C2-
============C2-
ttp://forums.matronics.com=C2-
============C2-
blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=C2-
============C2-
=C2-
=C2-
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
href="http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?TeamGrumman-List"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Li
st href="http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com href="h
ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/c
=========================
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: overheating TIger |
Sounds like the biggest problem is the PROLONGED climb to 1500-2000 ft at 8
0 kts. There is no reason to climb at that slow a speed for more than a co
uple hundred feet. Climbing at 100 kts will provide just about the same RO
C as at 90 kts because of the higher engine RPM and horsepower and the cool
ing is better.
I've heard the factory CHT instrument on the AG-5B is not all that accurate
and I'm not sure what cylinder it is located on, but AG-5Bs had a reputati
on of the #2 cyl running hot at Embry-Riddle in Prescott, AZ. And the baff
ling below #1 is very restrictive because of the alternator mounting and di
fferent baffle design from the AA-5B. Bill Scott modifies the stock baffli
ng to provide more air flow on #1.
Allowing the CHT to reach 500F will shorten the life of the exhaust valves,
guides and result in cracks in the exhaust port probably. The PF exhaust
probably aggravates the problem as it puts more heat into the cylinder. Do
n't climb at partial throttle as the carburetor has an enrichment valve tha
t will result in a leaner mixture than if you reduce the throttle even a ha
lf inch.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:57 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: overheating TIger
I have a customer with a 2005 Tiger. I put a power Flow on it about a mo
nth ago. To the best of my knowledge, he was instructed to take-off and cl
imb, every time, at 80 knots to practice in case he needed to climb over a
50 foot obstacle.
Here is his posting to me. Please give me some feedback as to what the g
eneral consensus is.
------
Hi Gary. I need some feedback. Today was the second time that I have tak
en
off and climbed out at 80 knots, and by the time I am at 1500 to 2000 feet
I have a cylinder head temp of 500 degrees and a climb rate of 1400 to 1500
feet/min. The outside air temp was 21 C on both days. This was with ful
l throttle and full rich. I was just beginning to
start a cruise climb both times when I noticed it. I was looking for it to
day,
but I got cutoff in the downwind turn by two planes coming in and obviously
did
not hear my takeoff call out. By the time I dodged both those guys the tem
p was
already at 500. I think the Tach was around 2400. As soon as I saw it I
lowered the nose20and the increase in speed cooled it back to 375 or 385 af
ter
what seemed like a minute or two. I was too busy worrying about it to time
the
temp drop. I definitely do not remember seeing those temps when I took it
home
or the next couple of flights. The oil is 61/4 qts.
Does this mean that I need to climb out at a 100 or more because even at th
ose
speeds I have at least 500'/min climb rate or more, or do I have to not us
e
full throttle on take off=3F Is this related to the baffling and/or the open
hole, or have I just mucked it up somehow. What cylinder is the probe on a
nd
could this be related to heat from the Powerflow near the probe and cylinde
r
head=3F
If I am getting this kind of response at these temps, I am definitely conce
rned
about when it really gets hot outside, and what if I really need that Vx cl
imb
rate=3F
Any suggestions.
As an aside, the first refueling showed a fuel flow of 7.3 gal/hr and today
after refueling it was 9.3. I assume that it is somewhat artificially low
due
to runnup and taxi etc time. This is just feedback.
Thanks
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: overheating TIger |
Hi Gary's Customer,
Just back from being stranded in Cowboy country. The Starter went out in
my '02 Tiger. Les Staples overnighted a new one and it works great! I'd
like to respond to this query as I had overheating problems with my '02
Tiger and found severall things to help it cool better. I always climb
at 80kts and never have cooling issues but...when I first had my Tiger
it would overheat.
First, I'd confirm measurement instrumentation
Second, I'd look at look at ways to make the engine cool better.
I'm guessing this plane has JPI and not EI engine scanner? As the chief
GGG (that's Grumman Guru Gary) has said the JPI indicates....70deg hgher
than the EI and Lycoming Factory instrumentation indicates....So your
500 was really only 430....
Yep, GGG's cowl will make the cylinders run really cold, under Lyc's
recommendations and I can't wait to get that cowl on mine..my EI 325deg
heads may be in the high 200's then:)
Ways to make it run cooler....lots of secrets there that lots of
mechanics did not want to let me know about...took long time to find out
some of them.... dinner bell just rang.... so here is just a short list
of some:
1) Whatever hole you are talking about patch it up. In fact go out at
night and put a light in the cowl and find all the holes and patch them
up with silicone
2) Ensure that the baffles are open "enough" ...that is on the bottom of
the cylinders. The distance between the rear wrap around baffle and the
intercylinder baffle is often too small especially on the 2000 vintage
AG5B's
3) Look for cylinder cast flashing between the spark plugs blocking
cooling air near the exhaust valve.
4) Make sure all the silicone baffles lay flat against the cowling. Pay
attention to the front baffle cowl because my '02 silicone was too short
and did not even reach the cowl.
I'll try and get more details later gota run but GGG knows all this so
just take her back to him and have him get it done...
ned
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 2:57 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: overheating TIger
I have a customer with a 2005 Tiger. I put a power Flow on it about a
month ago. To the best of my knowledge, he was instructed to take-off
and climb, every time, at 80 knots to practice in case he needed to
climb over a 50 foot obstacle.
Here is his posting to me. Please give me some feedback as to what
the general consensus is.
------
Hi Gary. I need some feedback. Today was the second time that I have
taken
off and climbed out at 80 knots, and by the time I am at 1500 to 2000
feet I have a cylinder head temp of 500 degrees and a climb rate of 1400
to 1500 feet/min. The outside air temp was 21 C on both days. This
was with full throttle and full rich. I was just beginning to
start a cruise climb both times when I noticed it. I was looking for it
today,
but I got cutoff in the downwind turn by two planes coming in and
obviously did
not hear my takeoff call out. By the time I dodged both those guys the
temp was
already at 500. I think the Tach was around 2400. As soon as I saw it
I
lowered the nose20and the increase in speed cooled it back to 375 or 385
after
what seemed like a minute or two. I was too busy worrying about it to
time the
temp drop. I definitely do not remember seeing those temps when I took
it home
or the next couple of flights. The oil is 61/4 qts.
Does this mean that I need to climb out at a 100 or more because even at
those
speeds I have at least 500'/min climb rate or more, or do I have to not
use
full throttle on take off? Is this related to the baffling and/or the
open
hole, or have I just mucked it up somehow. What cylinder is the probe
on and
could this be related to heat from the Powerflow near the probe and
cylinder
head?
If I am getting this kind of response at these temps, I am definitely
concerned
about when it really gets hot outside, and what if I really need that Vx
climb
rate?
Any suggestions.
As an aside, the first refueling showed a fuel flow of 7.3 gal/hr and
today
after refueling it was 9.3. I assume that it is somewhat artificially
low due
to runnup and taxi etc time. This is just feedback.
Thanks
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Instrument panel overlays |
Looking forward to the pictures.
Thanks,
Rich Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 1:11 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Instrument panel overlays
I have pics. ?Rather than going back through all of the emails I've received, send
me another and I'll forward the email with the pics to you. ?
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
Message 13
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| Subject: | RE: Overheating in climb |
I always shoot for a 90 kt climb and with the Power Flow I can usually get
much faster (and cooler) while maintaining at least 500fpm=2C which is an I
FR concern=2C but nothing but a round number to shoot for VFR. 90-110 kt c
limbs also increase forward field of view which is already excellent over t
he nose of a Tiger.
During a full throttle=2C full rich 90 kt climb on a hot day I might see 45
0 deg F CHT (EDM-70) until right around 5=2C000' DA. I never patched the e
xhaust hole in my stock cowl=2C and I have Vogt baffles. Interestingly=2C
after installing the Power Flow short stack my oil temps went up a consiste
nt 15 deg on the EDM-700 which other people have reported too.
-Brian
N119ST @ SDM
> Hi Gary. I need some feedback. Today was the second time that I have take
> n > off and climbed out at 80 knots=2C and by the time I am at 1500 to 20
00 feet I> have a cylinder head temp of 500 degrees=C2-and a climb rate o
f 1400 to 1> 500 feet/min. The outside air temp was 21 C on=C2-
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