Today's Message Index:
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1. 11:04 AM - Intake runner length and balancing intake charge (923te)
2. 12:35 PM - Re: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
3. 12:38 PM - Re: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge (923te)
4. 12:47 PM - Re: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge (923te)
5. 05:35 PM - Re: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge (Andy Thomas)
6. 09:39 PM - Re: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge (teamgrumman@aol.com)
7. 10:26 PM - Re: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge (teamgrumman@aol.com)
8. 11:26 PM - Re: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge (James Courtney)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Intake runner length and balancing intake charge |
Anyone here ever experiment with trying to balance power output between
cylinders by adjusting the intake runners on an A4K Lycoiming? Any
thoughts?
I'm wondering if the aft tubes were effectively lengthened would that
make a difference? Lengthened so that the distance from the carb to the
cylinder head would be the same for all 4 cylinders.
Or would a change in the shape of the pathways in the sump be more
effective? Or both required to get a good balance of power?
Does the tuned induction on the Continentals work to balance power? If
so why?
Thanks,
Ned
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge |
The IO360M1B is the engine to get for perfect intakes. =C2-It just won't f
it in a Tiger
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 7:20 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge
Anyone here ever experiment with trying to balance power output
between cylinders by adjusting the intake runners on an A4K=C2-Lycoiming?
Any
thoughts?
I'm wondering if the aft tubes were effectively lengthened would
that make a difference? Lengthened so that the distance from the carb to the
cylinder head would be the same for all 4 cylinders.
Or=C2-would a change in the shape of the pathways in the sump
be more effective? Or both required to get a good balance of power?
Does the tuned induction on the Continentals work to balance
power? If so why?
Thanks,
Ned
==
=======
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge |
So do you think lengthening the aft intakes would help balance?
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing
intake charge
The IO360M1B is the engine to get for perfect intakes. It just won't
fit in a Tiger
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 7:20 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake
charge
Anyone here ever experiment with trying to balance power output
between cylinders by adjusting the intake runners on an A4K Lycoiming?
Any thoughts?
I'm wondering if the aft tubes were effectively lengthened would that
make a difference? Lengthened so that the distance from the carb to the
cylinder head would be the same for all 4 cylinders.
Or would a change in the shape of the pathways in the sump be more
effective? Or both required to get a good balance of power?
Does the tuned induction on the Continentals work to balance power? If
so why?
Thanks,
Ned
or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
p://forums.matronics.com
ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge |
>From SSP204
IO-360-M1A 180/ 2700/ 100/100LL 8.50:1 Same as =93B1E except has a
front mounted propeller -51
160 2400 governor pad and a front mounted fuel injector
IO-360-M1B 180 2700 100/100LL 8.50:1 Same as =93M1A except
propeller governor located in -51
the rear, relocated flow divider and impulse Magneto
So the M1B has a front facing fuel injector....why couldn't it fit on a
Tiger? Put a ram air induction on it and have the filtered air come in
from elsewhere. Have an intake like a Cheetah but instead of a NACA put
a round pipe extending to the prop...
I'm thining of doing the Sabertooth that way...
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing
intake charge
The IO360M1B is the engine to get for perfect intakes. It just won't
fit in a Tiger
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 7:20 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake
charge
Anyone here ever experiment with trying to balance power output
between cylinders by adjusting the intake runners on an A4K Lycoiming?
Any thoughts?
I'm wondering if the aft tubes were effectively lengthened would that
make a difference? Lengthened so that the distance from the carb to the
cylinder head would be the same for all 4 cylinders.
Or would a change in the shape of the pathways in the sump be more
effective? Or both required to get a good balance of power?
Does the tuned induction on the Continentals work to balance power? If
so why?
Thanks,
Ned
or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
p://forums.matronics.com
ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge |
why couldn't you take a plain old O360 and put restrictors in the rich
cylinder intakes to balance all cylinders at say 2500 rpm. Maybe a
restrictor like the aperture of a camera with an adjustment screw that
could be mounted in the rubber boot that connects the intake pieces.
The amount of air coming in should be the same so you are just
redistributing it (and fuel) so power should stay the same, but
balanced. No?
seems like it should work....
Andy Thomas
----- Original Message -----
From: 923te
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing
intake charge
From SSP204
IO-360-M1A 180/ 2700/ 100/100LL 8.50:1 Same as =93B1E except has
a front mounted propeller -51
160 2400 governor pad and a front mounted fuel injector
IO-360-M1B 180 2700 100/100LL 8.50:1 Same as =93M1A except
propeller governor located in -51
the rear, relocated flow divider and impulse Magneto
So the M1B has a front facing fuel injector....why couldn't it fit on
a Tiger? Put a ram air induction on it and have the filtered air come in
from elsewhere. Have an intake like a Cheetah but instead of a NACA put
a round pipe extending to the prop...
I'm thining of doing the Sabertooth that way...
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing
intake charge
The IO360M1B is the engine to get for perfect intakes. It just
won't fit in a Tiger
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 7:20 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake
charge
Anyone here ever experiment with trying to balance power output
between cylinders by adjusting the intake runners on an A4K Lycoiming?
Any thoughts?
I'm wondering if the aft tubes were effectively lengthened would
that make a difference? Lengthened so that the distance from the carb to
the cylinder head would be the same for all 4 cylinders.
Or would a change in the shape of the pathways in the sump be more
effective? Or both required to get a good balance of power?
Does the tuned induction on the Continentals work to balance power?
If so why?
Thanks,
Ned
or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
p://forums.matronics.com
ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Checked by AVG.
2/23/2009 6:22 PM
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge |
OK, so, then, let me see, for the next 10 years you're going to be getting a
n exhaust system certified to work with an engine also not certified for the
plane.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:48 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake cha
rge
>From SSP204
IO-360-M1A 180/ 2700/
100/100LL
8.50:1 Same
as =93B1E except has a front mounted propeller -51
160 2400 governor pad and a front
mounted fuel injector
IO-360-M1B 180 2700 100/100LL
8.50:1 Same as =93M1A except propeller governor located
in -51
the rear, relocated flow divider and impulse
Magneto
So the M1B has a front=C2-facing fuel
injector....why couldn't it fit on a Tiger? Put a ram air induction on it an
d
have the filtered air come in from elsewhere. Have an intake like a Cheetah
but
instead of a NACA put a round pipe extending to the prop...
I'm thining of doing the Sabertooth that
way...
----- Original Message -----
From:
teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 2:34
PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake
runner length and balancing intake charge
The IO360M1B is the engine to get for perfect intakes. =C2-It
just won't fit in a Tiger
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te
<923te@att.net>
To:20teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent:
Tue, 24 Feb 2009 7:20 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length
and balancing intake charge
Anyone here ever experiment with trying to balance power
output between cylinders by adjusting the intake runners on an
A4K=C2-Lycoiming? Any thoughts?
I'm wondering if the aft tubes were effectively lengthened
would that make a difference? Lengthened so that the distance from the car
b to
the cylinder head would be the same for all 4 cylinders.
Or=C2-would a change in the shape of the pathways in the
sump be more effective? Or both required to get a good balance of
power?
Does the tuned induction on the Continentals work to balance
power? If so why?
Thanks,
Ned
or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
p://forums.matronics.com
ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List"http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List href="http://forums.matronics.com
"http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"
http://www.matronics.com/c
=====================
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge |
Wouldn't it be nice if air flow was one-dimensional? =C2-Then, a simple re
strictor would have no effect on turbulence in the intake, the fuel wouldn't
separate (i.e., fall out of the air flow) due to the pressure change, and t
he flow velocity profile wouldn't be affected. =C2-
For what it's worth, the length of the intake affects the amount of kinetic
energy in the intake charge. =C2-Short runners are good for high rpm horse
power. =C2-Long ones for low rpm torque. =C2-A difference of a few centi
meters can be corrected by porting and polishing, taking the entire assembly
into consideration. =C2-
Here is something to ponder, regarding flow in a port: =C2-consider a soli
d propellent rocket motor. =C2-The solid propellent is a cylindrical cross
section, let's say, with a cross-section thickness of 1 inch, an outside di
ameter of 3 inches and internal diameter of 1 inch. =C2-One end is closed.
=C2-The other end has a converging/diverging nozzle. =C2-Now, uniformly
light the propellent surface. =C2-Question(s): =C2-(1) What do you expe
ct the velocity profile to look like going down the port? =C2-(2) What wou
ld you expect the profile to look like going through the nozzle? =C2-(pict
ure the booster engines on the space shuttle) =C2-
If your answer to (1) was uniform flow going down the port, what would you t
hink if I told you there are, at times, 4 to to 7 highly rotational flows, r
otating as a mass clockwise, then counter-clockwise, then clockwise, etc.
=C2-The classical one-d
imensional profile you learned when creating a whistle by blowing across the
top of a pop bottle, doesn't exist in the real world. =C2-
If your answer to (2) is the type of flow you hope is happening in the ventu
ri=C2-of your carburetor, you'd be wrong again. =C2-There is, in the hig
hly rotational flow trying to exit the nozzle, a core which is not in the ce
nter of the flow, but which rotates around the nozzle like the core of a hur
ricane trying to get out.
Within the intake tubes, every bend and every shape change, changes the fuel
density distribution. =C2-Equal length tubes cannot prevent that. =C2-E
qual length tubes only affect the amount of energy being stored in the intak
e charge between each intake valve opening cycle. =C2-Clever manipulation
of the rocker arm geometry or cam profile can correct that. =C2-
-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Thomas <andy747@charter.net>
Sent: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 5:34 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake cha
rge
why couldn't you take a plain old O360 and put
restrictors in the rich cylinder intakes to balance all cylinders at say 250
0
rpm.=C2- Maybe a restrictor like the aperture of a camera with an adjustme
nt
screw that could be mounted in the rubber boot that connects the intake
pieces.=C2- The amount of air coming in should be the same so you are just
redistributing it (and fuel) so power should stay the same, but bala
nced.=C2-
No?
=C2-
seems like it should work....
=C2-
Andy Thomas
----- Original Message -----
=C2-
From:
923te
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 2:48
PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake
runner length and balancing intake charge
>From SSP204
IO-360-M1A 180/ 2700/
100/100LL 8.50:1 Same as =93B1E except has a front mounted
propeller -51
160 2400 governor pad and a front
mounted fuel injector
IO-360-M1B 180 2700 100/100LL
8.50:1 Same as =93M1A except propeller governor
located in -51
the rear, relocated flow divider and impulse
Magneto
So the M1B has a front=C2-facing fuel
injector....why couldn't it fit on a Tiger? Put a ram air induction on it
and
have the filtered air come in from elsewhere. Have an intake like a Cheeta
h
but instead of a NACA put a round pipe extending to the prop...
I'm thining of doing the Sabertooth
that way...
----- Original Message -----
From:
teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 2:34
PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake
runner length and balancing intake charge
The IO360M1B is the engine to get
for perfect intakes.
=C2-It just won't fit in a Tiger
-----Original
Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent:
Tue, 24 Feb 2009 7:20 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length
and balancing intake charge
Anyone here ever experiment with trying to balance power
output between cylinders by adjusting the intake runners on an
A4K=C2-Lycoiming? Any thoughts?
I'm wondering if the aft tubes were effectively lengthened
would that make a difference? Lengthened so that the distance from the c
arb
to the cylinder head would be the same for all 4 cylinders.
Or=C2-would a change in the shape of the pathways in the
sump be more effective? Or both required to get a good balance of
power?
Does the tuned induction on the Continentals work to
balance power? If so why?
Thanks,
Ned
or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
p://forums.matronics.com
ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy step
s!
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List href="http://forums.matronics.co
m">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n">http://www.matronics.com/c
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onics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronic
s.com/c
2/23/2009 6:22 PM
===========3D=============
========
Message 8
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| Subject: | Intake runner length and balancing intake charge |
The short answer is no and I don=99t know much about the
Continentals. The new IO-550Rs or whatever they are putting in the new
Cirrus and Cessna aircraft claim 10 more HP and a 2000 hr. TBO up from
1700. I suspect the TBO increase has more to do with the metallurgy and
manufacturing processes available during certification of this slightly
more modern line of engines than the tuned induction but that=99s
pure conjecture on my part. I=99m assuming most of the power
balancing still comes by regulating fuel flow to each cylinder using
balanced injectors. Once LOP where many folks run the big Continentals
you have a surplus of air so minor differences in the induction
shouldn=99t matter much. ROP maybe the tuned engines are a little
smoother?
Jamey
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 923te
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 7:20 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake
charge
Anyone here ever experiment with trying to balance power output between
cylinders by adjusting the intake runners on an A4K Lycoiming? Any
thoughts?
I'm wondering if the aft tubes were effectively lengthened would that
make a difference? Lengthened so that the distance from the carb to the
cylinder head would be the same for all 4 cylinders.
Or would a change in the shape of the pathways in the sump be more
effective? Or both required to get a good balance of power?
Does the tuned induction on the Continentals work to balance power? If
so why?
Thanks,
Ned
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
02/24/09 06:43:00
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