---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 02/24/09: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 11:04 AM - Intake runner length and balancing intake charge (923te) 2. 12:35 PM - Re: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge (teamgrumman@AOL.COM) 3. 12:38 PM - Re: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge (923te) 4. 12:47 PM - Re: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge (923te) 5. 05:35 PM - Re: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge (Andy Thomas) 6. 09:39 PM - Re: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge (teamgrumman@aol.com) 7. 10:26 PM - Re: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge (teamgrumman@aol.com) 8. 11:26 PM - Re: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge (James Courtney) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 11:04:59 AM PST US From: "923te" <923te@att.net> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge Anyone here ever experiment with trying to balance power output between cylinders by adjusting the intake runners on an A4K Lycoiming? Any thoughts? I'm wondering if the aft tubes were effectively lengthened would that make a difference? Lengthened so that the distance from the carb to the cylinder head would be the same for all 4 cylinders. Or would a change in the shape of the pathways in the sump be more effective? Or both required to get a good balance of power? Does the tuned induction on the Continentals work to balance power? If so why? Thanks, Ned ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:35:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge From: teamgrumman@AOL.COM The IO360M1B is the engine to get for perfect intakes. =C2-It just won't f it in a Tiger -----Original Message----- From: 923te <923te@att.net> Sent: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 7:20 am Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge Anyone here ever experiment with trying to balance power output between cylinders by adjusting the intake runners on an A4K=C2-Lycoiming? Any thoughts? I'm wondering if the aft tubes were effectively lengthened would that make a difference? Lengthened so that the distance from the carb to the cylinder head would be the same for all 4 cylinders. Or=C2-would a change in the shape of the pathways in the sump be more effective? Or both required to get a good balance of power? Does the tuned induction on the Continentals work to balance power? If so why? Thanks, Ned == ======= ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:38:53 PM PST US From: "923te" <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge So do you think lengthening the aft intakes would help balance? ----- Original Message ----- From: teamgrumman@aol.com To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 2:34 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge The IO360M1B is the engine to get for perfect intakes. It just won't fit in a Tiger -----Original Message----- From: 923te <923te@att.net> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 7:20 am Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge Anyone here ever experiment with trying to balance power output between cylinders by adjusting the intake runners on an A4K Lycoiming? Any thoughts? I'm wondering if the aft tubes were effectively lengthened would that make a difference? Lengthened so that the distance from the carb to the cylinder head would be the same for all 4 cylinders. Or would a change in the shape of the pathways in the sump be more effective? Or both required to get a good balance of power? Does the tuned induction on the Continentals work to balance power? If so why? Thanks, Ned or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List p://forums.matronics.com ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:47:34 PM PST US From: "923te" <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge >From SSP204 IO-360-M1A 180/ 2700/ 100/100LL 8.50:1 Same as =93B1E except has a front mounted propeller -51 160 2400 governor pad and a front mounted fuel injector IO-360-M1B 180 2700 100/100LL 8.50:1 Same as =93M1A except propeller governor located in -51 the rear, relocated flow divider and impulse Magneto So the M1B has a front facing fuel injector....why couldn't it fit on a Tiger? Put a ram air induction on it and have the filtered air come in from elsewhere. Have an intake like a Cheetah but instead of a NACA put a round pipe extending to the prop... I'm thining of doing the Sabertooth that way... ----- Original Message ----- From: teamgrumman@aol.com To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 2:34 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge The IO360M1B is the engine to get for perfect intakes. It just won't fit in a Tiger -----Original Message----- From: 923te <923te@att.net> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 7:20 am Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge Anyone here ever experiment with trying to balance power output between cylinders by adjusting the intake runners on an A4K Lycoiming? Any thoughts? I'm wondering if the aft tubes were effectively lengthened would that make a difference? Lengthened so that the distance from the carb to the cylinder head would be the same for all 4 cylinders. Or would a change in the shape of the pathways in the sump be more effective? Or both required to get a good balance of power? Does the tuned induction on the Continentals work to balance power? If so why? Thanks, Ned or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List p://forums.matronics.com ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:17 PM PST US From: "Andy Thomas" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge why couldn't you take a plain old O360 and put restrictors in the rich cylinder intakes to balance all cylinders at say 2500 rpm. Maybe a restrictor like the aperture of a camera with an adjustment screw that could be mounted in the rubber boot that connects the intake pieces. The amount of air coming in should be the same so you are just redistributing it (and fuel) so power should stay the same, but balanced. No? seems like it should work.... Andy Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: 923te To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 2:48 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge From SSP204 IO-360-M1A 180/ 2700/ 100/100LL 8.50:1 Same as =93B1E except has a front mounted propeller -51 160 2400 governor pad and a front mounted fuel injector IO-360-M1B 180 2700 100/100LL 8.50:1 Same as =93M1A except propeller governor located in -51 the rear, relocated flow divider and impulse Magneto So the M1B has a front facing fuel injector....why couldn't it fit on a Tiger? Put a ram air induction on it and have the filtered air come in from elsewhere. Have an intake like a Cheetah but instead of a NACA put a round pipe extending to the prop... I'm thining of doing the Sabertooth that way... ----- Original Message ----- From: teamgrumman@aol.com To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 2:34 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge The IO360M1B is the engine to get for perfect intakes. It just won't fit in a Tiger -----Original Message----- From: 923te <923te@att.net> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 7:20 am Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge Anyone here ever experiment with trying to balance power output between cylinders by adjusting the intake runners on an A4K Lycoiming? Any thoughts? I'm wondering if the aft tubes were effectively lengthened would that make a difference? Lengthened so that the distance from the carb to the cylinder head would be the same for all 4 cylinders. Or would a change in the shape of the pathways in the sump be more effective? Or both required to get a good balance of power? Does the tuned induction on the Continentals work to balance power? If so why? Thanks, Ned or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List p://forums.matronics.com ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG. 2/23/2009 6:22 PM ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:37 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge From: teamgrumman@aol.com OK, so, then, let me see, for the next 10 years you're going to be getting a n exhaust system certified to work with an engine also not certified for the plane. -----Original Message----- From: 923te <923te@att.net> Sent: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:48 pm Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake cha rge >From SSP204 IO-360-M1A 180/ 2700/ 100/100LL 8.50:1 Same as =93B1E except has a front mounted propeller -51 160 2400 governor pad and a front mounted fuel injector IO-360-M1B 180 2700 100/100LL 8.50:1 Same as =93M1A except propeller governor located in -51 the rear, relocated flow divider and impulse Magneto So the M1B has a front=C2-facing fuel injector....why couldn't it fit on a Tiger? Put a ram air induction on it an d have the filtered air come in from elsewhere. Have an intake like a Cheetah but instead of a NACA put a round pipe extending to the prop... I'm thining of doing the Sabertooth that way... ----- Original Message ----- From: teamgrumman@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 2:34 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge The IO360M1B is the engine to get for perfect intakes. =C2-It just won't fit in a Tiger -----Original Message----- From: 923te <923te@att.net> To:20teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 7:20 am Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge Anyone here ever experiment with trying to balance power output between cylinders by adjusting the intake runners on an A4K=C2-Lycoiming? Any thoughts? I'm wondering if the aft tubes were effectively lengthened would that make a difference? Lengthened so that the distance from the car b to the cylinder head would be the same for all 4 cylinders. Or=C2-would a change in the shape of the pathways in the sump be more effective? Or both required to get a good balance of power? Does the tuned induction on the Continentals work to balance power? If so why? Thanks, Ned or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List p://forums.matronics.com ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List"http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List href="http://forums.matronics.com "http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" http://www.matronics.com/c ===================== ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:26:20 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge From: teamgrumman@aol.com Wouldn't it be nice if air flow was one-dimensional? =C2-Then, a simple re strictor would have no effect on turbulence in the intake, the fuel wouldn't separate (i.e., fall out of the air flow) due to the pressure change, and t he flow velocity profile wouldn't be affected. =C2- For what it's worth, the length of the intake affects the amount of kinetic energy in the intake charge. =C2-Short runners are good for high rpm horse power. =C2-Long ones for low rpm torque. =C2-A difference of a few centi meters can be corrected by porting and polishing, taking the entire assembly into consideration. =C2- Here is something to ponder, regarding flow in a port: =C2-consider a soli d propellent rocket motor. =C2-The solid propellent is a cylindrical cross section, let's say, with a cross-section thickness of 1 inch, an outside di ameter of 3 inches and internal diameter of 1 inch. =C2-One end is closed. =C2-The other end has a converging/diverging nozzle. =C2-Now, uniformly light the propellent surface. =C2-Question(s): =C2-(1) What do you expe ct the velocity profile to look like going down the port? =C2-(2) What wou ld you expect the profile to look like going through the nozzle? =C2-(pict ure the booster engines on the space shuttle) =C2- If your answer to (1) was uniform flow going down the port, what would you t hink if I told you there are, at times, 4 to to 7 highly rotational flows, r otating as a mass clockwise, then counter-clockwise, then clockwise, etc. =C2-The classical one-d imensional profile you learned when creating a whistle by blowing across the top of a pop bottle, doesn't exist in the real world. =C2- If your answer to (2) is the type of flow you hope is happening in the ventu ri=C2-of your carburetor, you'd be wrong again. =C2-There is, in the hig hly rotational flow trying to exit the nozzle, a core which is not in the ce nter of the flow, but which rotates around the nozzle like the core of a hur ricane trying to get out. Within the intake tubes, every bend and every shape change, changes the fuel density distribution. =C2-Equal length tubes cannot prevent that. =C2-E qual length tubes only affect the amount of energy being stored in the intak e charge between each intake valve opening cycle. =C2-Clever manipulation of the rocker arm geometry or cam profile can correct that. =C2- -----Original Message----- From: Andy Thomas Sent: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 5:34 pm Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake cha rge why couldn't you take a plain old O360 and put restrictors in the rich cylinder intakes to balance all cylinders at say 250 0 rpm.=C2- Maybe a restrictor like the aperture of a camera with an adjustme nt screw that could be mounted in the rubber boot that connects the intake pieces.=C2- The amount of air coming in should be the same so you are just redistributing it (and fuel) so power should stay the same, but bala nced.=C2- No? =C2- seems like it should work.... =C2- Andy Thomas ----- Original Message ----- =C2- From: 923te Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 2:48 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge >From SSP204 IO-360-M1A 180/ 2700/ 100/100LL 8.50:1 Same as =93B1E except has a front mounted propeller -51 160 2400 governor pad and a front mounted fuel injector IO-360-M1B 180 2700 100/100LL 8.50:1 Same as =93M1A except propeller governor located in -51 the rear, relocated flow divider and impulse Magneto So the M1B has a front=C2-facing fuel injector....why couldn't it fit on a Tiger? Put a ram air induction on it and have the filtered air come in from elsewhere. Have an intake like a Cheeta h but instead of a NACA put a round pipe extending to the prop... I'm thining of doing the Sabertooth that way... ----- Original Message ----- From: teamgrumman@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 2:34 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge The IO360M1B is the engine to get for perfect intakes. =C2-It just won't fit in a Tiger -----Original Message----- From: 923te <923te@att.net> Sent: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 7:20 am Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge Anyone here ever experiment with trying to balance power output between cylinders by adjusting the intake runners on an A4K=C2-Lycoiming? Any thoughts? I'm wondering if the aft tubes were effectively lengthened would that make a difference? Lengthened so that the distance from the c arb to the cylinder head would be the same for all 4 cylinders. Or=C2-would a change in the shape of the pathways in the sump be more effective? Or both required to get a good balance of power? Does the tuned induction on the Continentals work to balance power? If so why? Thanks, Ned or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List p://forums.matronics.com ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy step s! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List href="http://forums.matronics.co m">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contributio n">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http:// www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List"http://www.matronics.com/Naviga tor?TeamGrumman-List href="http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matr onics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronic s.com/c 2/23/2009 6:22 PM ===========3D============= ======== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:26:57 PM PST US From: "James Courtney" Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge The short answer is no and I don=99t know much about the Continentals. The new IO-550Rs or whatever they are putting in the new Cirrus and Cessna aircraft claim 10 more HP and a 2000 hr. TBO up from 1700. I suspect the TBO increase has more to do with the metallurgy and manufacturing processes available during certification of this slightly more modern line of engines than the tuned induction but that=99s pure conjecture on my part. I=99m assuming most of the power balancing still comes by regulating fuel flow to each cylinder using balanced injectors. Once LOP where many folks run the big Continentals you have a surplus of air so minor differences in the induction shouldn=99t matter much. ROP maybe the tuned engines are a little smoother? Jamey From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 923te Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 7:20 AM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Intake runner length and balancing intake charge Anyone here ever experiment with trying to balance power output between cylinders by adjusting the intake runners on an A4K Lycoiming? Any thoughts? I'm wondering if the aft tubes were effectively lengthened would that make a difference? Lengthened so that the distance from the carb to the cylinder head would be the same for all 4 cylinders. Or would a change in the shape of the pathways in the sump be more effective? Or both required to get a good balance of power? Does the tuned induction on the Continentals work to balance power? If so why? Thanks, Ned Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 02/24/09 06:43:00 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.