Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:06 AM - EI vs JPI (GOLDPILOT@aol.com)
2. 02:18 PM - Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 03/30/09 (airman@appledumplings.com)
3. 02:47 PM - Re: Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 03/30/09 (MIKE JEFFERSON)
4. 09:34 PM - Re: Re: reciting thread posts (923te)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=================================================
Today's complete TeamGrumman-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the TeamGrumman-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter=2
009-03-30&Archive=TeamGrumman
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter
09-03-30&Archive=TeamGrumman
===============================================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
===============================================
----------------------------------------------------------
TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Mon 03/30/09: 10
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:49 AM - Re: Re: EI vs JPI (flyv35b)
2. 07:21 AM - EI vs JPI (Thomas Campbell)
3. 07:48 AM - Re: EI vs JPI (flyv35b)
4. 09:42 AM - Re: reciting thread posts (923te)
5. 10:27 AM - Re: Re: EI vs JPI (teamgrumman@aol.com)
6. 10:46 AM - Re: Re: EI vs JPI (teamgrumman@aol.com)
7. 11:32 AM - Re: Re: EI vs JPI (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
8. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: EI vs JPI (Gil Alexander)
9. 01:39 PM - Re: reciting thread posts (grumpyparts)
10. 07:02 PM - Re: EI vs JPI (az_gila)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 06:49:50 AM PST US
From: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
This has been my point, there is very little difference between the two
types of probes. If I recall this data from Steve was obtained on
different flights so the 3.5F is probably within the margin of error.
We don't have all the data or evidence yet and the jury is still out.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: 923te
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
Steve's conclusion "the EI longer P-101 probe does indeed read hotter
than the short P-100 probe by about 3.5 degrees F"
----- Original Message -----
From: flyv35b
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two different
styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard P-100, that he tested and
found very little difference between the two. The large differences in
temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with the
fixed probe. And all the accusations, or implications at least, are
that the fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature. There is
a real possibility that it could be due to something completely
different.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Gil Alexander
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
Ned... I believe the GG post you refer to still references Gary's
EI/JPI measurements....:^)
He just says below that the EI non-bayonet probes read lower -
which does not seem to be in dispute....:^)
And do you really think Lycoming used a non-MIL-Spec probe,
especially in the 60's, for certification? I vote for probes that touch
the cylinder.
gil A
At 07:05 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
I started this thread because of similar thread that was started
on the GG. I understood one poster to say that he too had experienced
higher readings with JPI type probes that actually touch the thermowell.
He had both in his Cheetah and found that the probes that touch the head
actually give a higher reading.
So in answer to Gil's post it appears that others have noted the
diffenece in temp readings besides Gary.
Someone at Lycoming needs to answer this question, at least the
question of the type of probe they used. Right now we are just
speculating on what type of probe they used.
Ned
Here is the post I refer to:
----- Original Message -----
From: John Horton
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:19 PM
Subject: RE: Tiger outlet ramps - More Info Req.
Dave,
I would direct you to look at
http://www.bondline.org/wiki/Lower_Cowling_Split
for info about reworking the exit ramps. That link will only
provide info
about
the metal exit ramps but that's half the options.
When you mention that your temps are "warm" be sure to review
the GG archives
about JPI instrumentation vs EI instrumentation. There are
differences in
probe
design that make JPI read higher that EI in what should be the
same cylinder.
So if you have JP CHT and think your running "warm" you might be
just fine if
you had EI CHT. Theres a good bit of reading in the archives on
that topic.
My
consensus after reviewing (and I might still have it wrong) is
that JP CHT
reads
hotter than EI due to the fact that the JP CHT probe actually is
spring
loaded
to touch the cyl head. The EI CHT probe screws into a space in
the cyl head.
I
have had both in my plane (Cheetah) and can verify that fact.
The probes are
different and the JP touches the head and reads hotter.
So if you have JP CHT gauge and it reads 420 in climb your most
likely fine.
(Assuming the temp goes down when you level out) The same plane
may well read
385 with a EI CHT and it is fine also. Be sure to know your temp
source (EI
or
JP) and read the archives to get a feel for the differences
before you go and
rework your exit ramps. They might be fine.
I recently reworked my exit ramps on my Cheetah due to a
"warmer" than I'd
like
#4 cyl, cracks in my metal exit ramps and a newly minted A&P
ticket that
allowed
me to do it. I have only flown it once and the results looked
promising.
Tommorrow I hope to gather more flight data. I currently have a
JP CHT/EGT
and
in climb prior to the ramp work could occasionally hit 450 (my
and Lycomings
redline). I could easily get into the 430's in climb and have
to nose over
and
or throttle back to arrest the CHT rise. When I had the EI CHT
gauge I never
saw anything above 390.
After reworking the ramps I do expect to go faster, climb higher
and do it
all
with 1/3 flaps deployed for less gallons per hour. I just had to
throw that
in
in case there aren't enough emotionally loaded topics to write
about.
John Horton
HC Cheetah
Sensenich Prop
----- Original Message -----
From: Gil Alexander
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
Gary,
How many STCs have you installed with poor/bad/wrong
instructions? And the CHT/EGT monitor STCs are quite "generic" not
really airframe specific.
My latest one was my Plane Power voltage regulator. Works
fine, but needed spacers to clear the "bumps" on the fire wall - hardly
a drop-in exact replacement for the non flat bottom mechanical regulator
- and no mention in the STC instructions.
Your plane seems to be the only test case reporting the
problem. I'm happy with the Insight GEM in mine with it's probes that
touch the thermowell bottom like I believe the Lycoming test bayonet
probes did during their certification.
As an electronics engineer, I know I would not design
sensitive millivolts equipment using grounded sensors.... but that's
just me.... and my stuff is (or has been) working in military aircraft
and space vehicles....:^)
gil A
PS ...I like the GEM unit, but I have the "bars only" version
- I would prefer the version with numbers - a probable future upgrade.
PPS Sorry about the formatting of the mV chart in my previous
e-mail
Here is an alternate link to another table of National
Institute of Standards and Technology output voltages from a Type J
thermocouple -
http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf
This shows how small the DC voltages are that we are
measuring.
At 05:40 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
There is something else going on here in your plane - and
since we are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would personally
vote for grounding issues.=C2
MY PLANE? =C2 Ok, maybe your right. =C2 The grounds in
installed according to the STC were done wrong. =C2 Maybe the probes
grounding against brand new cylinders had corrosion built up in them.
=C2
Maybe planes experiencing CHT readings higher on a JPI than
on an EI also followed the installation instructions.
How about you doing your own testing and report your own
results?
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:03 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
This is only true if, and it's a big IF, the temperatures
displayed on todays instrumentation "WOULD" have displayed the same
temperatures as those recorded by Lycoming technicians=C3, on the
instrumentation used by Lycoming. =C3,=C2
Gary... I don't belief that is a big "IF"...
The electrical characteristics of a type J thermocouple have
been well known from long before WWII.
The electrical instrumentation bit has not changed over the
years as far as the basic thermocouple, especially when used in an
engine test cell.=C2 I bet Lycoming had individual CHT meters directly
connected to the probes, none of this fancy digital switching, scanning
stuff....:^)
Today the probes and the interconnect may be different, but
the a type J thermocouple has always created the same amount of voltage
due to physics.
There is something else going on here in your plane - and
since we are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would personally
vote for grounding issues.=C2 You can see from the table below that 10
degrees Centigrade is about a 1/2 milliVolt change.=C2 Try a direct
wire from GND on your EI gauge to the engine.
This is from Sandia labs...=C2 gil A
=C2 ITS-90 Table for type J=C2 thermocouple
=C2 =C2=B0C=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 0=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
1=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 2=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
3=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 4=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
5=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 6=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
7=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 8=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
9=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 10
=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
Thermoelectric Voltage in mV
=C2
=C2 =C2 0=C2 0.000=C2 0.050=C2 0.101=C2 0.151=C2
0.202=C2 0.253=C2 0.303=C2 0.354=C2 0.405=C2
0.456=C2
0.507
=C2 10=C2 0.507=C2 0.558=C2 0.609=C2 0.660=C2
0.711=C2 0.762=C2 0.814=C2 0.865=C2 0.916=C2
0.968=C2
1.019
=C2 20=C2 1.019=C2 1.071
1.122=C2 1.174=C2
1.226=C2 1.277=C2 1.329=C2 1.381=C2 1.433=C2
1.485=C2
1.537
=C2 30=C2 1.537=C2 1.589=C2 1.641=C2 1.693=C2
1.745=C2 1.797=C2 1.849=C2 1.902=C2 1.954=C2
2.006=C2
2.059
=C2 40=C2 2.059=C2 2.111=C2 2.164=C2 2.216=C2
2.269=C2 2.322=C2 2.374=C2 2.427=C2 2.480=C2
2.532=C2
2.585
=C2
=C2 50=C2 2.585=C2 2.638=C2 2.691=C2 2.744=C2
2.797=C2 2.850=C2 2.903=C2 2.956=C2 3.009=C2
3.062=C2
3.116
=C2 60=C2 3.116=C2 3.169=C2 3.222=C2 3.275=C2
3.329=C2 3.382=C2 3.436=C2 3.489=C2 3.543=C2
3.596=C2
3.650
=C2 70=C2 3.650=C2 3.703=C2 3.757=C2 3.810=C2
3.864=C2 3.918=C2 3.971=C2 4.025=C2 4.079=C2
4.133=C2
4.187
=C2 80=C2 4.187=C2 4.240=C2 4.294=C2 4.348=C2
4.402=C2 4.456=C2 4.510=C2 4.564=C2 4.618=C2
4.672=C2
4.726
=C2 90=C2 4.726=C2 4.781=C2 4.835=C2 4.889=C2
4.943=C2 4.997=C2 5.052=C2 5.106=C2 5.160=C2
5.215=C2
5.269
=C2
=C2 100=C2 5.269=C2 5.323=C2 5.378=C2 5.432=C2
5.487=C2 5.541=C2 5.595=C2 5.650=C2 5.705=C2
5.759=C2
5.814
=C2 110=C2 5.814=C2 5.868=C2 5.923=C2 5.977=C2
6.032=C2 6.087=C2 6.141=C2 6.196=C2 6.251=C2
6.306=C2
6.360
=C2 120=C2 6.360=C2 6.415=C2 6.470=C2 6.525=C2
6.579=C2 6.634=C2 6.689=C2 6.744=C2 6.799=C2
6.854=C2
6.909
=C2 130=C2 6.909=C2 6.964=C2 7.019=C2 7.074=C2
7.129=C2 7.184=C2 7.239=C2 7.294=C2 7.349=C2
7.404=C2
7.459
=C2 140=C2 7.4590 7.514=C2 7.569=C2 7.624=C2
7.679=C2 7.734=C2 7.789=C2 7.844=C2 7.900=C2
7.955=C2
8.010
=C2
=C2 150=C2 8.010=C2 8.065=C2 8.120=C2 8.175=C2
8.231=C2 8.286=C2 8.341=C2 8.396=C2 8.452=C2
8.507=C2
8.562
=C2 160=C2 8.562=C2 8.618=C2 8.673=C2 8.728=C2
8.783=C2 8.839=C2 8.894=C2 8.949=C2 9.005=C2
9.060=C2
9.115
=C2 170=C2 9.115=C2 9.171=C2 9.226=C2 9.282=C2
9.337=C2 9.392=C2 9.448=C2 9.503=C2 9.559=C2
9.614=C2
9.669
=C2 180=C2 9.669=C2 9.725=C2 9.780=C2 9.836=C2
9.891=C2 9.947 10.002 10.057 10.113 10.168 10.224
=C2 190 10.224 10.279 10.335 10.390 10.446 10.501 10.557 10.612 10.668
10.723 10.779
=C2
=C2 200 10.779 10.834 10.890 10.945 11.001 11.056 11.112 11.167 11.223
11.278 11.334
=C2 210 11.334 11.389 11.445 11.501 11.556 11.612 11.667 11.723 11.778
11.834 11.889
=C2 220 11.889 11.945 12.000 12.056 12.111 12.167 12.222 12.278 12.334
12.389 12.445
=C2 230 12.445 12.500 12.556 12.611 12.667 12.722 12.778 12.833 12.889
12.944 13.000
=C2 240 13.000 13.056 13.111 13.167 13.222 13.278 13.333 13.389 13.444
13.500 13.555
=C2
=C2 250 13.555 13.611 13.666 13.722 13.777 13.833 13.888 13.944 13.999
14.055 14.110
=C2 260 14.110 14.166 14.221 14.277 14.332 14.388 14.443 14.499 14.554
14.609 14.665
=C2 270 14.665 14.720 14.776 14.831 14.887 14.942 14.998 15.053 15.109
15.164 15.219
=C2 280 15.219 15.275 15.330 15.386 15.441 15.496 15.552 15.607 15.663
15.718 15.773
=C2 290 15.773 15.829 15.884 15.940 15.995 16.050 16.106 16.161 16.
216
16.272 16.327
or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
p://forums.matronics.com
ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--------------------------------------------------------------------
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.
?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D6
68072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62"> See yours in just 2
easy steps!
href="
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="
http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
3/28/2009 7:16 AM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG.
3/28/2009 7:16 AM
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 07:21:51 AM PST US
From: Thomas Campbell <airman@appledumplings.com>
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: EI vs JPI
#1 you guys really need to learn how to cut the uneeded part of the
original message when you reply. It takes 10 seconds. I know at least one
of you guys is stubborn because of old GG issues. But man I have tried to
read this forum for some time and it is quite annoying. But on a day like
today where many do it .. it is not just annoying it is unbearable and
unreadable.
With that said. I recently installed a JPI EDM 700 I previously had an
alcor EGT only. I am seeing 450 on the back cylinders and
380-400 on the front sometimes in cruise if I lean
aggresively.(I have not seen it get higher in climb) Even with keeping it
a bit rich I run 430 on the back.
My history. Atlanta,Ga AA5b 1976 10 years 450 SMOH. Good compressions
all 74 or higher last 3 annuals with one exception of a 72. Had high oil
temps(1-2 needle widths below redline in summer) and put new baffle seal
and sealed some seams in the side baffles. I still
wonder about the baffle sheets on the bottom. It doesnt fit well next to
the case in the back bottom. Anyway we checked the gauge and vernatherm
and I gave up and got a bigger cooler. Which helped, now 200-210.
After all this I put in the JPI and get the above temps. I have not gone
back and had someone check to see if the ground was installed correctly. I
will do this soon. My current A&P also made a comment about the JPI.
Saying he has had a few people install them and get so distraught that
they seel theri airplanes or do overhaul early. He seems less concerned.
And he has looked for any overheat indicators.
I personly have been running it a bit rich because until I am assured it
is instrumentation It just makes me nervous.
Thomas
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 07:48:50 AM PST US
From: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: EI vs JPI
> #1 you guys really need to learn how to cut the uneeded part of the
> original message when you reply.
You are so right. I do it on the GG but have been guilty of not doing it
here.
Cliff
--
We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
The Professional version does not have this message
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 09:42:54 AM PST US
From: "923te" <923te@att.net>
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: reciting thread posts
I began leaving in all the reference posts because it made it easy for
me to forward the thread to someone interested but not on the list. One
copy in one post and he has the whole thread to date.
I don't understand why you would be annoyed. The newest post is the
first at the top. If you aren't interested in the older post don't read
further.
Why be annoyed. I don't get why it annoyes??
ned
----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Campbell
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:12 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: EI vs JPI
<airman@appledumplings.com>
#1 you guys really need to learn how to cut the uneeded part of the
original message when you reply. It takes 10 seconds. I know at least
one
of you guys is stubborn because of old GG issues. But man I have tried
to
read this forum for some time and it is quite annoying. But on a day
like
today where many do it .. it is not just annoying it is unbearable and
unreadable.
With that said. I recently installed a JPI EDM 700 I previously had
an
alcor EGT only. I am seeing 450 on the back cylinders and
380-400 on the front sometimes in cruise if I lean
aggresively.(I have not seen it get higher in climb) Even with keeping
it
a bit rich I run 430 on the back.
My history. Atlanta,Ga AA5b 1976 10 years 450 SMOH. Good compressions
all 74 or higher last 3 annuals with one exception of a 72. Had high
oil
temps(1-2 needle widths below redline in summer) and put new baffle
seal
and sealed some seams in the side baffles. I still
wonder about the baffle sheets on the bottom. It doesnt fit well next
to
the case in the back bottom. Anyway we checked the gauge and
vernatherm
and I gave up and got a bigger cooler. Which helped, now 200-210.
After all this I put in the JPI and get the above temps. I have not
gone
back and had someone check to see if the ground was installed
correctly. I
will do this soon. My current A&P also made a comment about the JPI.
Saying he has had a few people install them and get so distraught that
they seel theri airplanes or do overhaul early. He seems less
concerned.
And he has looked for any overheat indicators.
I personly have been running it a bit rich because until I am assured
it
is instrumentation It just makes me nervous.
Thomas
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 10:27:18 AM PST US
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two
different styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard P-100, that he tested an
d
found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large differences in
temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with the fixed
probe.=C2- And all the accusations, or implications at least, are that the
fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a real
possibility that it could be due to something completely
different.
=C2-
Cliff
Finally, Cliff, you hit the nail on the head. =C2-I agree. =C2-There is
a real possibility there is something going on that could account for the di
fferences in temperatures. =C2-I doubt, seriously, that it is just the pro
bes.
And. =C2-It has nothing to do with a recent change in vendors. =C2-I fir
st noticed this difference around 1995 when I installed my first JPI 700.
=C2-
And. =C2-It isn't just my plane. =C2-I installed a JPI 700 in one Comanc
he and a JPI 800 in another Comanche in place of previously installed EI uni
ts. =C2-Both owners came back saying their engines were running hot. =C2
-One owner, the 700, bought another EI and had me put it in instead. =C2
-The other owner was willing to accept the higher readings.
Gil. =C2-Just how many grounds is enough? =C2-Are you concerned about gr
ound loops? =C2-I've run the ground to a common avionics ground AND to the
ground on the engine from the avionics ground. A
0No change. =C2-I've tried just the avionics ground. =C2-I've tried just
the engine ground. =C2-No change. =C2-
Like I wrote in the STAR, the temps start out the same before start-up. =C2
-The JPI temps rise faster and to a higher reading than the EI temps.
And. =C2-There is no way to know the actual test set up used by Lycoming.
=C2-
I have an old Gem in a box somewhere. =C2-It has no digital readout. =C2
-Gil, if yours has no digital readout, with 25 degree per bar accuracy, ho
w do you know what the temperature is? =C2-
And. Speculation: =C2-I would expect that the makers of these analyzers to
ok into consideration various millivolt differences. =C2-If they saw diffe
rences of 3 degrees, I doubt they cared.
And. =C2-If this had only happened to one installation, then I would look
at the installation. =C2-It is a universal experience that the JPI reads h
igher. =C2-
-----Original Message-----
From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 7:35 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two
different styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard P-100, that he tested an
d
found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large differences in
temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with the fixed
probe.=C2- And all the accusations, or implications at least, are that the
=0
Afixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a real
possibility that it could be due to something completely
different.
=C2-
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From:
Gil
Alexander
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:13
PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs
JPI
Ned... I believe the GG post you refer to still references
Gary's EI/JPI measurements....:^)
He just says below that the EI
non-bayonet probes read lower - which does not seem to be in
dispute....:^)
And do you really think Lycoming used a non-MIL-Spec
probe, especially in the 60's, for certification?=C2- I vote for probes
that
touch the cylinder.
gil A
At 07:05 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
I started this thread because of similar
thread that was started on the GG. I understood one poster to say that h
e
too had experienced higher readings with JPI type probes that actually t
ouch
the thermowell. He had both in his Cheetah and found that the probes tha
t
touch the head actually give a higher reading.
=C2-
So in answer to Gil's post it appears that
others have noted the diffenece in temp readings besides
Gary.
=C2-
Someone at
Lycoming needs to answer this question, at least the question of the typ
e of
probe they used. Right now we are just sp
eculating on what type of probe
they used.
=C2-
Ned
=C2-
Here is the post I refer
to:
=C2-
=C2-
-----
Original Message -----
From: John Horton
Sent: Tuesday,
March 24, 2009 9:19 PM
Subject: RE: Tiger outlet ramps - More Info
Req.
Dave,
I would direct you to look at
http://www.bondline.org/wiki/Lower_Cowling_Split
for
info about reworking the exit ramps.=C2- That link will only provide
info
about
the metal exit ramps but that's half the
options.
When you mention that your temps are "warm" be sure to
review the GG archives
about JPI instrumentation vs EI instrumentation.
There are differences in
probe
design that make JPI read higher that
EI in what should be the same cylinder.
So if you have JP CHT and think
your running "warm" you might be just fine if
you had EI CHT.=C2-
Theres a good bit of reading in the archives on that
topic.
My
consensus after reviewing (and I might still have it wrong)
is that JP CHT
reads
hotter than EI due to the fact that the JP CHT
probe actually is spring
loaded
to touch the cyl head. The EI CHT
probe screws into a space in the cyl head.
I
have had both in my plane
(Cheetah) and can verify that fact. The probes are
different and the JP
touches the head and reads hotter.
So if you have=C2- J
P CHT gauge
and it reads 420 in climb your most likely fine.
(Assuming the temp goes
down when you level out) The same plane may well read
385 with a EI CHT
and it is fine also. Be sure to know your temp source (EI
or
JP) and
read the archives to get a feel for the differences before you go
and
rework your exit ramps. They might be fine.
I recently
reworked my exit ramps on my Cheetah due to a "warmer" than
I'd
like
#4 cyl, cracks in my metal exit ramps and a newly minted
A&P ticket that
allowed
me to do it. I have only flown it once and
the results looked promising.
Tommorrow I hope to gather more flight
data. I currently have a JP CHT/EGT
and
in climb prior to the ramp
work could occasionally hit 450 (my and Lycomings
redline).=C2- I could
easily get into the 430's in climb and have to nose over
and
or
throttle back to arrest the CHT rise.=C2- When I had the EI CHT gauge
I
never
saw anything above 390.
After reworking the ramps I do
expect to go faster, climb higher and do it
all
with 1/3 flaps
deployed for less gallons per hour. I just had to throw that
in
in
case there aren't enough emotionally loaded topics to write
about.
John Horton
HC Cheetah
Sensenich Prop
=C2------ Original Message -----
=0
AFrom: Gil Alexander
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
Gary,
How many STCs have you installed with poor/bad/wrong
instructions?=C2- And the CHT/EGT monitor STCs are quite "generic" n
ot
really airframe specific.
My latest one was my Plane Power voltage regulator.=C2- Works fine,
but needed spacers to clear the "bumps" on the fire wall - hardly a
drop-in exact replacement for the non flat bottom mechanical regulator
-
and no mention in the STC instructions.
Your plane seems to be the only test case reporting the problem.=C2-
I'm happy with the Insight GEM in mine with it's probes that touch the
thermowell bottom like I believe the Lycoming test bayonet probes did
during their certification.
As an electronics engineer, I know I would not design sensitive
millivolts equipment using grounded sensors.... but that's just me....
and
my stuff is (or has been) working in military aircraft and space
vehicles....:^)
gil A
PS ...I like the GEM unit, but I have the "bars only" version - I
would prefer the version with numbe
rs - a probable future upgrade.
PPS=C2- Sorry about the formatting of the mV chart in my previous
e-mail
Here is an alternate link to another table of National Institute of
Standards and Technology output voltages from a Type J thermocouple
-
http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf
This shows how small the DC voltages are that we are
measuring.
At 05:40 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we
are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would personally vote
for
grounding issues.=C3=82
MY PLANE? =C3=82 Ok, maybe your right. =C3=82 The grounds in installed
according to the STC were done wrong. =C3=82 Maybe the probes ground
ing
against brand new cylinders had corrosion built up in them. =C3=82
=C2-
Maybe planes experiencing CHT readings higher on a JPI than on an EI
also followed the installation instructions.
How about you doing your own testing and report your own
results?
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
=2
0
Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:03 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
This is only true if, and it's a big IF, the temperatures
displayed on todays instrumentation "WOULD" have displayed the sam
e
temperatures as those recorded by Lycoming technicians=C3=83
=9A on the
instrumentation used by Lycoming. =C3=83=9A=C3=82=C2-
Gary... I don't belief that is a big "IF"...
The electrical characteristics of a type J thermocouple have been
well known from long before WWII.
The electrical instrumentation bit has not changed over the years as
far as the basic thermocouple, especially when used in an engine tes
t
cell.=C3=82=C2- I bet Lycoming had individual CHT meters directly
connected
to the probes, none of this fancy digital switching, scanning
stuff....:^)
Today the probes and the interconnect may be different, but the a
type J thermocouple has always created the same amount of voltage du
e to
physics.
There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we
are dealing with fractions of mil
liVolts, I would personally vote for
grounding issues.=C3=82=C2- You can see from the table below that
10
degrees Centigrade is about a 1/2 milliVolt change.=C3=82=C2- Try
a direct
wire from GND on your EI gauge to the engine.
This is from Sandia labs...=C3=82=C2- gil A
=C3=82 ITS-90 Table for type J=C3=82=C2- thermocouple
=C3=82 =C3=82=C2=B0C=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82 =C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
1=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 2=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82
3=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 4=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82
5=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 6=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82
7=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 8=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82
9=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 10
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
Thermoelectric Voltage in mV
=C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82=C2- 0.000=C3=82=C2- 0.050=C3=82=C2- 0.101
=C3=82=C2- 0.151=C3=82
0.202=C3=82=C2- 0.253=C3=82=C2- 0.303=C3=82=C2- 0.354=C3=82=C2- 0.40
5=C3=82=C2-
0.456=C3=82
0.507
=C3=82=C2- 10=C3=82=C2- 0.507=C3=82=C2- 0.558=C3=82=C2- 0.609=C3=82
=C2- 0.660=C3=82
0.711=C3=82=C2- 0.762=C3=82=C2- 0.814=C3=82=C2- 0.8652=C2- 0.916=C3
=82=C2-
0.968=C3=82
1.019
=C3=82=C2- 20=C3=82=C2- 1.019=C3=82=C2- 1.071
=C2-1.122=C3=82=C2- 1.174=C3=82
1.226=C3=82=C2- 1.277=C3=82=C2- 1.329=C3=82=C2- 1.381=C3=82=C2- 1.43
3=C3=82=C2-
1.485=C3=82
1.537
=C3=82=C2- 30=C3=82=C2- 1.537=C3=82=C2- 1.589=C3=82=C2- 1.641=C3=82
=C2- 1.693=C3=82
1.745=C3=82=C2- 1.797=C3=82=C2- 1.849=C3=82=C2- 1.902=C3=82=C2- 1.95
4=C3=82=C2-
2.006=C3=82
2.059
=C3=82=C2- 40=C3=82=C2- 2.059=C3=82=C2- 2.111=C3=82=C2- 2.164=C3=82
=C2- 2.216=C3=82
2.269=C3=82=C2- 2.322=C3=82=C2- 2.374=C3=82=C2- 2.427=C3=82=C2- 2.48
0=C3=82=C2-
2.532=C3=82
2.585
=C3=82=C2-
=C3=82=C2- 50=C3=82=C2- 2.585=C3=82=C2- 2.638=C3=82=C2- 2.691=C3=82
=C2- 2.744=C3=82
2.797=C3=82=C2- 2.850=C3=82=C2- 2.903=C3=82=C2- 2.956=C3=82=C2- 3.00
9=C3=82=C2-
3.062=C3=82
3.116
=C3=82=C2- 60=C3=82=C2- 3.116=C3=82=C2- 3.169=C3=82=C2- 3.222=C3=82
=C2- 3.275=C3=82
3.329=C3=82=C2- 3.382=C3=82=C2- 3.436=C3=82=C2- 3.489=C3=82=C2- 3.54
3=C3=82=C2-
3.596=C3=82
3.650
=C3=82=C2- 70=C3=82=C2- 3.650=C3=82=C2- 3.703=C3=82=C2- 3.757=C3=82
=C2- 3.810=C3=82
3.864=C3=82=C2- 3.918=C3=82=C2- 3.971=C3=82=C2- 4.025=C3=82=C2- 4.07
9=C3=82=C2-
4.133=C3=82
4.187
=C3=82=C2- 80=C3=82=C2- 4.187=C3=82=C2- 4.240=C3=82=C2- 4.294=C3=82
=C2- 4.348=C3=82
4.402=C3=82=C2- 4.456=C3=82=C2- 4.510=C3=82=C2- 4.564=C3=82=C2- 4.61
8=C3=82=C2-
4.672=C3=82
4.726
=C3=82=C2- 90=C3=82=C2- 4.726=C3=82=C2- 4.781=C3=82=C2- 4.835=C3=82
=C2- 4.8
89=C3=82
4.943=C3=82=C2- 4.997=C3=82=C2- 5.052=C3=82=C2- 5.106=C3=82=C2- 5.16
0=C3=82=C2-
5.215=C3=82
5.269
=C3=82=C2-
=C3=82 100=C3=82=C2- 5.269=C3=82=C2- 5.323=C3=82=C2- 5.378=C3=82=C2
- 5.432=C3=82
5.487=C3=82=C2- 5.541=C3=82=C2- 5.595=C3=82=C2- 5.650=C3=82=C2- 5.70
5=C3=82=C2-
5.759=C3=82
5.814
=C3=82 110=C3=82=C2- 5.814=C3=82=C2- 5.868=C3=82=C2- 5.923=C3=82=C2
- 5.977=C3=82
6.032=C3=82=C2- 6.087=C3=82=C2- 6.141=C3=82=C2- 6.196=C3=82=C2- 6.25
1=C3=82=C2-
6.306=C3=82
6.360
=C3=82 120=C3=82=C2- 6.360=C3=82=C2- 6.415=C3=82=C2- 6.470=C3=82=C2
- 6.525=C3=82
6.579=C3=82=C2- 6.634=C3=82=C2- 6.689=C3=82=C2- 6.744=C3=82=C2- 6.79
9=C3=82=C2-
6.854=C3=82
6.909
=C3=82 130=C3=82=C2- 6.909=C3=82=C2- 6.964=C3=82=C2- 7.019=C3=82=C2
- 7.074=C3=82
7.129=C3=82=C2- 7.184=C3=82=C2- 7.239=C3=82=C2- 7.294=C3=82=C2- 7.34
9=C3=82=C2-
7.404=C3=82
7.459
=C3=82 140=C3=82=C2- 7.4590 7.514=C3=82=C2- 7.569=C3=82=C2- 7.624=C3
=82
7.679=C3=82=C2- 7.734=C3=82=C2- 7.789=C3=82=C2- 7.844=C3=82=C2- 7.90
0=C3=82=C2-
7.955=C3=82
8.010
=C3=82=C2-
=C3=82 150=C3=82=C2- 8.010=C3=82=C2- 8.065=C3=82=C2- 8.120=C3=82=C2
- 8.175=C3=82
8.231=C3=82=C2- 8.286=C3=82=C2- 8.341=C3=82=C2- 8.396=C3=82=C2- 8.45
2=C3=82=C2-
8.507=C3=82
8.562
=C3=82 160=C3=82=C2- 8.562=C3=82=C2- 8.618=C3=82=C2- 8.673=C3=82=C2
- 8.728=C3=82
8.783=C3=82=C2- 8.839=C3=82=C2- 8.894=C3=82=C2- 8.949=C3=82=C2- 9.00
5=C3=82=C2-
9.060=C3=82
9.115
=C3=82 170=C3=82=C2- 9
..115=C3=82=C2- 9.171=C3=82=C2- 9.226=C3=82=C2- 9.282=C3=82
9.337=C3=82=C2- 9.392=C3=82=C2- 9.448=C3=82=C2- 9.503=C3=82=C2- 9.55
9=C3=82=C2-
9.614=C3=82
9.669
=C3=82 180=C3=82=C2- 9.669=C3=82=C2- 9.725=C3=82=C2- 9.780=C3=82=C2
- 9.836=C3=82
9.891=C3=82=C2- 9.947 10.002 10.057 10.113 10.168 10.224
=C3=82 190 10.224 10.279 10.335 10.390 10.446 10.501 10.557 10.612 10.668
10.723 10.779
=C3=82=C2-
=C3=82 200 10.779 10.834 10.890 10.945 11.001 11.056 11.112 11.167 11.223
11.278 11.334
=C3=82 210 11.334 11.389 11.445 11.501 11.556 11.612 11.667 11.723 11.778
11.834 11.889
=C3=82 220 11.889 11.945 12.000 12.056 12.111 12.167 12.222 12.278 12.334
12.389 12.445
=C3=82 230 12.445 12.500 12.556 12.611 12.667 12.722 12.778 12.833 12.889
12.944 13.000
=C3=82 240 13.000 13.056 13.111 13.167 13.222 13.278 13.333 13.389 13.444
13.500 13.555
=C3=82=C2-
=C3=82 250 13.555 13.611 13.666 13.722 13.777 13.833 13.888 13.944 13.999
14.055 14.110
=C3=82 260 14.110 14.166 14.221 14.277 14.332 14.388 14.443 14.499 14.554
14.609 14.665
=C3=82 270 14.665 14.720 14.776 14.831 14.887 14.942 14.998 15.053 15.109
15.164 15.219
=C3=82 280 15.219 15.275 15.330 15.386 15.441 15.496 15.552 15.607 15.663
15.718 15.773
=C3=82 290 15.773 15.829 15.884 15.940 15.995 16.050 16.106 16.161 16.
216
16.272 16.327
or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
p://forums.matronics.com
ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.
?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fs
c%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62">
See yours in just 2 easy steps!
href="
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="
http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
">http://www.matronics.com/c
========
3/28/2009 7:16 AM
We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
0 - List Contribution Web Site -
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 10:46:44 AM PST US
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
Just to add to the mix. =C2-
On the flight tests, we also measured Oil Temp and OAT with the EI. =C2-Oi
l temp was measured at the oil filter adaptor and OAT was a probe stuck out
the canopy at the top. =C2-
Oil temp on the EI was within 5 degrees of the oil temp measured by the JPI
in the front right galley plug.
Oat on the JPI was slightly colder, 1 to 4 degrees, with the JPI probed loca
ted under the left wing at the most forward inspection cover.
-----Original Message-----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:23 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two
different styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard P-100, that he tested an
d
found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large differences in
temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with the fixed
probe.=C2- And all the accusations, or implications at least, are that the
fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a real
possibility that it could be due to something completely
different.
=C2-
Cliff
Finally, Cliff, you hit the nail on the head. =C2-I agree. =C2-There is
a real possibility there is something going on that could account for the di
fferences in temperatures. =C2-I doubt, seriously, that it is just the pro
bes.
And. =C2-It has nothing to do with
a recent change in vendors. =C2-I first noticed this difference around 19
95 when I installed my first JPI 700. =C2-
And. =C2-It isn't just my plane. =C2-I installed a JPI 700 in one Comanc
he and a JPI 800 in another Comanche in place of previously installed EI uni
ts. =C2-Both owners came back saying their engines were running hot. =C2
-One owner, the 700, bought another EI and had me put it in instead. =C2
-The other owner was willing to accept th
e higher readings.
Gil. =C2-Just how many grounds is enough? =C2-Are you concerned about gr
ound loops? =C2-I've run the ground to a common avionics ground AND to the
ground on the engine from the avionics ground. =C2-No change. =C2-I've
tried just the avionics ground. =C2-I've tried just the engine ground.
=C2-No change. =C2-
Like I wrote in the STAR, the temps start out the same before start-up. =C2
-The JPI temps rise faster and to a higher reading than the EI temps.
And. =C2-There is no way to know the actual test set up used by Lycoming.
=C2-
I have an old Gem in a box somewhere. =C2-It has no digital readout. =C2
-Gil, if yours has no digital readout, with 25 degree per bar accuracy, ho
w do you know what the temperature is? =C2-
And. Speculation: =C2-I would expect that the makers of these analyzers to
ok into consideration various millivolt differences. =C2-If they saw diffe
rences of 3 degrees, I
doubt they cared.
And. =C2-If this had only happened to one installation, then I would look
at the installation. =C2-It is a universal experience that the JPI reads h
igher. =C2-
-----Original Message-----
From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 7:35 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two
different styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard P-100, that he tested an
d
found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large differences in
temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with the fixed
probe.=C2- And all the accusations, or implications at least, are that the
fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a real
possibility that it could be due to something completely
different.
=C2-
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From:
Gil
Alexander
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:13
PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs
JPI
Ned... I believe the GG post you refer to still references
Gary's EI/JPI measurements....:^)
He just says below that the EI
non-bayonet probes read lower - which does not seem to be in
dispute....:^)
And do yo
u really think Lycoming used a non-MIL-Spec
probe, especially in the 60's, for certification?=C2- I vote for probes
that
touch the cylinder.
gil A
At 07:05 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
I started this thread because of similar
thread that was started on the GG. I understood one poster to say that h
e
too had experienced higher readings with JPI type probes that actually t
ouch
the thermowell. He had both in his Cheetah and found that the probes tha
t
touch the head actually give a higher reading.
=C2-
So in answer to Gil's post it appears that
others have noted the diffenece in temp readings besides
Gary.
=C2-
Someone at
Lycoming needs to answer this question, at least the question of the typ
e of
probe they used. Right now we are just speculating on what type of probe
they used.
=C2-
Ned
=C2-
Here is the post I refer
to:
=C2-
=C2-
-----
Original Message -----
From: John Horton
Sent: Tuesday,
March 24, 2009 9:19 PM
Subject: RE: Tiger outlet ramps - More Info
Req.
Dave,
I would direct you to look at
http://www.bondline.org/wiki/Lower_Cowling_Split
for
info about reworking the exit ramps.=C2- That link will only provide
info
about
the metal exit ramps but that's half the
options.
When you mention
that your temps are "warm" be sure to
review the GG archives
about JPI instrumentation vs EI instrumentation.
There are differences in
probe
design that make JPI read higher that
EI in what should be the same cylinder.
So if you have JP CHT and think
your running "warm" you might be just fine if
you had EI CHT.=C2-
Theres a good bit of reading in the archives on that
topic.
My
consensus after reviewing (and I might still have it wrong)
is that JP CHT
reads
hotter than EI due to the fact that the JP CHT
probe actually is spring
loaded
to touch the cyl head. The EI CHT
probe screws into a space in the cyl head.
I
have had both in my plane
(Cheetah) and can verify that fact. The pro
bes are
different and the JP
touches the head and reads hotter.
So if you have=C2- JP CHT gauge
and it reads 420 in climb your most likely fine.
(Assuming the temp goes
down when you level out) The same plane may well read
385 with a EI CHT
and it is fine also. Be sure to know your temp source (EI
or
JP) and
read the archives to get a feel for the differences before you go
and
rework your exit ramps. They might be fine.
I recently
reworked my exit ramps on my Cheetah due to a "warmer" than
I'd
like
#4 cyl, cracks=2
0in my metal exit ramps and a newly minted
A&P ticket that
allowed
me to do it. I have only flown it once and
the results looked promising.
Tommorrow I hope to gather more flight
data. I currently have a JP CHT/EGT
and
in climb prior to the ramp
work could occasionally hit 450 (my and Lycomings
redline).=C2- I could
easily get into the 430's in climb and have to nose over
and
or
throttle back to arrest the CHT rise.=C2- When I had the EI CHT gauge
I
never
saw anything above 390.
After reworking the ramps I do
expect to go faster, climb higher and do it
all
with 1/3 flaps
deployed for less gallons per hour. I just had to throw that
in
in
case there aren't
enough emotionally loaded topics to write
about.
John Horton
HC Cheetah
Sensenich Prop
=C2------ Original Message -----
From: Gil Alexander
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
Gary,
How many STCs have you installed with poor/bad/wrong
instructions?=C2- And the CHT/EGT monitor STCs are quite "generic" n
ot
really airframe specific.
My lat
est one was my Plane Power voltage regulator.=C2- Works fine,
but needed spacers to clear the "bumps" on the fire wall - hardly a
drop-in exact replacement for the non flat bottom mechanical regulator
-
and no mention in the STC instructions.
Your plane seems to be the only test case reporting the problem.=C2-
I'm happy with the Insight GEM in mine with it's probes that touch the
thermowell bottom like I believe the Lycoming test bayonet probes did
during their certification.
As an electronics engineer, I know I would not design sensitive
millivolts
equipment using grounded sensors.... but that's just me.... and
my stuff is (or has been) working in military aircraft and space
vehicles....:^)
gil A
PS ...I like the GEM unit, but I have the "bars only" version - I
would prefer the version with numbers - a probable future upgrade.
PPS=C2- Sorry about the formatting of the mV chart in my previous
e-mail
Here is an alternate link to another table of National Institute of
Standards and Technology output voltages from a Type J thermocouple
-
http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf
This shows h
ow small the DC voltages are that we are
measuring.
At 05:40 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we
are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would personally vote
for
grounding issues.=C3=82
MY PLANE? =C3=82 Ok, maybe your right. =C3=82 The grounds in installed
according to the STC were done wrong. =C3=82 Maybe the probes ground
ing
20 against brand new cylinders had corrosion built up in them. =C3=82
=C2-
Maybe planes experiencing CHT readings higher on a JPI than on an EI
also followed the installation instructions.
How about you doing your own testing and report your own
results?
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:03 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
This is only true if, and it's a big IF, the temperatures
displayed on todays instrumentation "WOULD" have displayed the sam
e
=2
0 temperatures as those recorded by Lycoming technicians=C3=83=9A on
the
instrumentation used by Lycoming. =C3=83=9A=C3=82=C2-
Gary... I don't belief that is a big "IF"...
The electrical characteristics of a type J thermocouple have been
well known from long before WWII.
The electrical instrument
ation bit has not changed over the years as
far as the basic thermocouple, especially when used in an engine tes
t
cell.=C3=82=C2- I bet Lycoming had individual CHT meters directly
connected
to the probes, none of this fancy digital switching, scanning
stuff....:^)
Today the probes and the interconnect may be different, but the a
type J thermocouple has always created the same amount of voltage du
e to
physics.
There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we
are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would personally vote fo
r
grounding issues.=C3=82=C2- You can see from the table below that
10
degrees Centigrade is about a 1/2 milliVolt change.=C3=82=C2- Try
a direct
wire from GND on your EI gauge to the engine.
This is from Sandia labs...=C3=82=C2- gil A
=0
A
=C3=82 ITS-90 Table for type J=C3=82=C2- thermocouple
=C3=82 =C3=82=C2=B0C=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82 =C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
1=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 2=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82
3=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 4=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82
5=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 6=C3=82 =C3=82=2
0=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
7=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 8=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82
9=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 10
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
Thermoelectric Voltage in mV
=C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82=C2- 0.000=C3=82=C2- 0.050=C3=82=C2- 0.101
=C3=82=C2- 0.151=C3=82
0.202=C3=82=C2- 0.253=C3=82=C2- 0.303=C3=82=C2- 0.354=C3=82=C2- 0.40
5=C3=82=C2-
0.456=C3=82
0.507
=C3=82=C2- 10=C3=82=C2- 0.507=C3=82=C2- 0.558=C3=82=C2- 0.609=C3=82
=C2- 0.660=C3=82
0.711=C3=82=C2- 0.762=C3=82=C2- 0.814=C3=82=C2- 0.865=C3=82=C2- 0.91
6=C3=82=C2-
0.968=C3=82
1.019
=C3=82=C2- 20=C3=82=C2- 1.019=C3=82=C2- 1.071
=C2-1.122=C3=82=C2- 1.174=C3=82
1.226=C3=82=C2- 1.277=C3=82=C2- 1.329=C3=82=C2- 1.381=C3=82=C2- 1.43
3=C3=82=C2-
1.485=C3=82
1.537
=C3=82=C2- 30=C3=82=C2- 1.537=C3=82=C2- 1.589=C3=82=C2- 1.641=C3=82
=C2- 1.693=C3=82
1.745=C
3=C2- 1.797=C3=82=C2- 1.849=C3=82=C2- 1.902=C3=82=C2- 1.954=C3=82
=C2-
2.006=C3=82
2.059
=C3=82=C2- 40=C3=82=C2- 2.059=C3=82=C2- 2.111=C3=82=C2- 2.164=C3=82
=C2- 2.216=C3=82
2.269=C3=82=C2- 2.322=C3=82=C2- 2.374=C3=82=C2- 2.427=C3=82=C2- 2.48
0=C3=82=C2-
2.532=C3=82
2.585
=C3=82=C2-
=C3=82=C2- 50=C3=82=C2- 2.585=C3=82=C2- 2.6382=C2- 2.691=C3=82=C2
- 2.744=C3=82
2.797=C3=82=C2- 2.850=C3=82=C2- 2.903=C3=82=C2- 2.956=C3=82=C2- 3.00
9=C3=82=C2-
3.062=C3=82
3.116
=C3=82=C2- 60=C3=82=C2- 3.116=C3=82=C2- 3.169=C3=82=C2- 3.222=C3=82
=C2- 3.275=C3=82
3.329=C3=82=C2- 3.382=C3=82=C2- 3.436=C3=82=C2- 3.489=C3=82=C2- 3.54
3=C3=82=C2-
3.596=C3=82
3.650
=C3=82=C2- 70=C3=82=C2- 3.650=C3=82=C2- 3.703=C3=82=C2- 3.757=C3=82
=C2- 3.810=C3=82
3.864=C3=82=C2- 3.918=C3=82=C2- 3.971=C3=82=C2- 4.025=C3=82=C2- 4.07
9=C3=82=C2-
4.133=C3=82
4.187
=C3=82=C2- 80=C3=82=C2- 4.187=C3=82=C2- 4.240=C3=82=C2- 4.294=C3=82
=C2- 4.348=C3=82
4.402=C3=82=C2- 4.456=C3=82=C2- 4.510=C3=82=C2- 4.564=C3=82=C2- 4.61
8=C3=82=C2-
4.672=C3=82
4.726
=C3=82=C2- 90=C3=82=C2- 4.726=C3=82=C2- 4.781=C3=82=C2- 4.835=C3=82
=C2- 4.889=C3=82
4.943=C3=82=C2- 4.997=C3=82=C2- 5.052=C3=82=C2- 5.106=C3=82=C2- 5.16
0=C3=82=C2-
5.215=C3=82
5.269
=C3=82=C2-
=C3=82 100=C3=82=C2- 5.269=C3=82=C2- 5.323=C3=82=C2- 5.378=C3=82=C2
- 5.432=C3=82
5.487=C3=82=C2- 5.541=C3=82=C2- 5.595=C3=82=C2- 5.650=C3=82=C2- 5.70
5=C3=82=C2-
5.759=C3=82
5.814
=C3=82 110=C3=820 5.814=C3=82=C2- 5.868=C3=82=C2- 5.923=C3=82=C2- 5.97
7=C3=82
6.032=C3=82=C2- 6.087=C3=82=C2- 6.141=C3=82=C2- 6.196=C3=82=C2- 6.25
1=C3=82=C2-
6.306=C3=82
6.360
=C3=82 120=C3=82=C2- 6.360=C3=82=C2- 6.415=C3=82=C2- 6.470=C3=82=C2
- 6.525=C3=82
6.579=C3=82=C2- 6.634=C3=82=C2- 6.689=C3=82=C2- 6.744=C
3=C2- 6.799=C3=82=C2-
6.854=C3=82
6.909
=C3=82 130=C3=82=C2- 6.909=C3=82=C2- 6.964=C3=82=C2- 7.019=C3=82=C2
- 7.074=C3=82
7.129=C3=82=C2- 7.184=C3=82=C2- 7.239=C3=82=C2- 7.294=C3=82=C2- 7.34
9=C3=82=C2-
7.404=C3=82
7.459
=C3=82 140=C3=82=C2- 7.4590 7.514=C3=82=C2- 7.569=C3=82=C2- 7.624=C3
=82
7.679=C3=82=C2- 7.734=C3=82=C2- 7.789=C3=82=C2- 7.844=C3=82=C2- 7.90
0=C3=82=C2-
7.955=C3=82
8.010
=C3=82=C2-
=C3=82 150=C3=82=C2- 8.010=C3=82=C2- 8.065=C3=82=C2- 8.120=C3=82=C2
- 8.175=C3=82
8.231=C3=82=C2- 8.286=C3=82=C2- 8.341=C3=82=C2- 8.396=C3=82=C2- 8.45
2=C3=82=C2-
8.507=C3=82
8.562
=C3=82 160=C3=82=C2- 8.562=C3=82=C2- 8.618=C3=82=C2- 8.673=C3=82=C2
- 8.728=C3=82
8.783=C3=82=C2- 8.839=C3=82=C2- 8.894=C3=82=C2- 8.949=C3=82=C2- 9.00
5=C3=82=C2-
9.060=C3=82
9.115
=C3=82 170=C3=82=C2- 9.115=C3=82=C2- 9.171=C3=82=C2- 9.226=C3=82=C2
- 9.282=C3=82
9.337=C3=82=C2- 9.392=C3=82=C2- 9.448=C3=82=C2- 9.503=C3=82=C2- 9.55
9=C3=82=C2-
9.614=C3=82
9.669
=C3=82 180=C3=82=C2- 9.669=C3=82=C2- 9.725=C3=82=C2- 9.780=C3=82=C2
- 9.836=C3=82
9.891=C3=82=C2- 9.947 10.002 10.057 10.113 10.168 10.224
=C3=82 190 10.224 10.279 10.335 1
0.390 10.446 10.501 10.557 10.612 10.668
10.723 10.779
=C3=82=C2-
=C3=82 200 10.779 10.834 10.890 10.945 11.001 11.056 11.112 11.167 11.223
11.278 11.334
=C3=82 210 11.334 11.389 11.445 11.501 11.556 11.612 11.667 11.723 11.778
11.834 11.889
=C3=82 220 11.889 11.945 12.000 12.056 12.111 12.167 12.222 12.278 12.334
12.389 12.445
=C3=82 230 12.445 12.500 12.556 12.611 12.667 12.722 12.778 12.833 12.889
12.944 13.000
=C3=82 240 13.000 13.056 13.111 13.167 13.222 13.278 13.333 13.389 13.444
13.500 13.555
=C3=82=C2-
=C3=82 250 13.555 13.611 13.666 13.722 13.777 13.833 13.888 13.944 13.999
14.055 14.110
=C3=82 260 14.110 14.166 14.221 14.277 14.332 14.388 14.443 14.499 14.554
14.609 14.665
=C3=82 270 14.665 14.720 14.776 14.831 14.887 14.942 14.998 15.053 15.109
15.164 15.219
=C3=82 280 15.219 15.275 15.330 15.386 15.441 15.496 15.552 15.607 15.663
15.718 15.773
=C3=82 290 15.773 15.829 15.884 15.940 15.995 16.050 16.106 16.161 16.
216
16.272 16.327
or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
p://forums.matronics.com
ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.
?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fs
c%3D668072%26hmp
gID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62">
See yours in just 2
easy steps!
href="
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="
http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
">http://www.matronics.com/c
or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
===============3
D===================
p://forums.matronics.com
ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
3/28/2009 7:16 AM
We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
ch as List Un/Subscription,
or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
p://forums.matronics.com
ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
=====
==
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
Time: 11:32:14 AM PST US
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
From: teamgrumman@AOL.COM
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/excerpt.pdf
------------------------------------------------
It sounds to me like this describes the basic=C2-EI=C2-circuit. =C2-I
know you can't change the length of the leads (on the unit I used). =C2-Th
e reference temperature is the back of the unit? =C2-Not sure if I would r
ely on that.
Except for a few cautions, the unpowered thermocouple gage
is quite attractive. It can be accurate and requires no wiring to
ship's DC power. Such an instrument is illustrated in View
-C-. Obviously, the reference-junction for this instrument
exists right where the thermocouple wires bolt to the back of
the instrument. Reference-junction compensation doesn't have
to look like a 0oC ice bath. The reference-junction compensator
just needs to know what the temperature is at the studs on the
back of the instrument case; no problem since the
compensation circuitry is right inside the case!
------------------------------------------------
This sounds more like a=C2-JPI=C2-unit.
While on the topic of high impedance instruments for
thermocouples, I'll call your attention to Figure 14-12.
In View -A- the hot-junction and reference-junction
setup is similar to Figure 14-10, View -A- except: an
electronic amplifier inserted between thermocouple
wires and indicator. Some interesting things happen
when you add an amplifier. (1) the indicator becomes a
simple, much less expensive, voltmeter and (2) the
current flo
wing in the thermocouple wires is for all
practical purposes, zero. Length of thermocouple wire
is no longer critical; insertion of a selector switch to
manage many thermocouples is feasible. The last
inconvenience to eliminate is the requirement for an ice
bath . . . .
------------------------------------------------
This sounds like what was done on the=C2-AG5B. =C2-No wonder their temp
gauges are so=C2-bazaar.=C2-
I try to avoid
bringing a thermocouple through any kind of connector
along with other wires. There's a lot of temptation on the
part of builders to bring all wires penetrating a firewall
through on some kind of connector. For cost, weight
and time savings, I recommend fabricating firewall
penetrations from ordinary grommets with sheet metal
fire shields.
------------------------------------------------
Figure 14-3: =C2-A: =C2-JPI installation. =C2- =C2-B: EI Installatio
n
------------------------------------------------
http://www.status.co.uk/data/handbook_sections_1_to_4.pdf
Thermocouples with grounded junctions display response times some 20 to 30%
faster than those with insulated junctions. Very good sensitivity is provide
d by fine
gauge unsheathed thermocouples. With conductor diameter in the range 0.025mm
to 0.81mm, response times in the region of 0.05 to 0.40 seconds can be reali
sed.
-----Original Message-----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Mon, 30 Mar
2009 10:43 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
Just to add to the mix. =C2-
On the flight tests, we also measured Oil Temp and OAT with the EI. =C2-Oi
l temp was measured at the oil filter adaptor and OAT was a probe stuck out
the canopy at the top. =C2-
Oil temp on the EI was within 5 degrees of the oil temp measured by the JPI
in the front right galley plug.
Oat on the JPI was slightly colder, 1 to 4 degrees, with the JPI probed loca
ted under the left wing at the most forward inspection cover.
-----Original Message-----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:23 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two
different styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard P-100, that he tested an
d
found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large differences in
temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with the fixed
probe.=C2- And all the accusations, or implications at least, are that the
fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a real
possibility that it could be due to something completely
different.
=C2-
Cliff
Finally, Cliff, you hit the nail on the head. =C2-I agree. =C2-There is
a real possibility there is something going on that could account20for the d
ifferences in temperatures. =C2-I doubt, seriously, that it is just the pr
obes.
And. =C2-It has nothing to do with a recent change in vendors. =C2-I fir
st noticed this difference around 1995 when I installed my first JPI 700.
=C2-
And. =C2-It isn't just my plane. =C2-I installed a JPI 700 in one Comanc
he and a JPI 800 in another Comanche in place of previously installed EI uni
ts. =C2-Both owners came back saying their engines were running hot. =C2
-One owner, the 700, bought another EI and had me put it in instead. =C2
-The other owner was willing to accept th
e higher readings.
Gil. =C2-Just how many grounds is enough? =C2-Are you concerned about gr
ound loops? =C2-I've run the ground to a common avionics ground AND to the
ground on the engine from the avionics ground. =C2-No change. =C2-I've
tried just the avionics ground. =C2-I've tried just the engine ground.
=C2-No change. =C2-
Like I wrote in the STAR, the temps start out the same before start-up. =C2
-The JPI temps rise faster and to a higher reading than the EI temps.
And. =C2-There is no way to know the actual test set up used by Lycoming.
C2
I have an old Gem in a box somewhere. =C2-It has no digital readout. =C2
-Gil, if yours has no digital readout, with 25 degree per bar accuracy, ho
w do you know what th
e temperature is? =C2-
And. Speculation: =C2-I would expect that the makers of these analyzers to
ok into consideration various millivolt differences. =C2-If they saw diffe
rences of 3 degrees, I doubt they cared.
And. =C2-If this had only happened to one installation, then I would look
at the installation. =C2-It is a universal experience that the JPI reads h
igher. =C2-
-----Original Message-----
From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 7:35 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two
different styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard P-100, that he tested an
d
found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large differences in
temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with the fixed
probe.=C2- And all the accusations, or implications at least, are that the
fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a real
possibility that=2
0it could be due to something completely
different.
=C2-
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From:
Gil
Alexander
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:13
PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumm
an-List: RE: EI vs
JPI
Ned... I believe the GG post you refer to still references
Gary's EI/JPI measurements....:^)
He just says below that the EI
non-bayonet probes read lower - which does not seem to be in
dispute....:^)
And do you really think Lycoming used a non-MIL-Spec
probe, especially in the 60's, for certification?=C2- I vote for probes
that
touch the cylinder.
gil A
At 07:05 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
I started this thread b
ecause of similar
thread that was started on the GG. I understood one poster to say that h
e
too had experienced higher readings with JPI type probes that actually t
ouch
the thermowell. He had both in his Cheetah and found that the probes tha
t
touch the head actually give a higher reading.
=C2-
So in answer to Gil's post it appears that
others have noted the diffenece in temp readings besides
Gary.
=C2-
Someone at
Lycoming needs to answer this question, at least the question of the typ
e of
probe they used. Right now we are just speculating on what type of probe
they used.
=C2-
Ned
=C2-
Here is the post I refer
to:
=C2-
=C2-
-----
Original Message -----
From: John Horton
Sent: Tuesday,
March 24, 2009209:19 PM
Subject: RE: Tiger outlet ramps - More Info
Req.
Dave,
I would direct you to look at
http://www.bondline.org/wiki/Lower_Cowling_Split
for
info about reworking the exit ramps.=C2- That link will only provide
info
about
the metal exit ramps but that's half the
options.
When you mention that your temps are "warm" be sure to
review the GG archives
about JPI instrumentation vs EI instrumentation.
There are differences in
probe
design that make JPI read higher that
EI in what should be the same cylinder.
So if you have JP CHT and think
your running "warm" you might be just fine if
you had EI CHT.=C2-
Theres a good bit of reading in the archives on that
topic.
My
consensus after reviewing (and I might still have it wrong)
is that JP CHT
reads
hotter than EI due to the fact that the JP CHT
probe actually is spring
loaded
to touch the cyl head. The EI CHT
probe screws into a space in the cyl head.
I
have had both in my plane
(Cheetah) and can verify that fact. The pro
bes are
different and the JP
touches the head and reads hotter.
So if you have=C2- JP CHT gauge
and it reads 420 in climb your most likely fine.
(Assuming the temp goes
down when you level out)=2
0The same plane may well read
385 with a EI CHT
and it is fine also. Be sure to know your temp source (EI
or
JP) and
read the archives to get a feel for the differences before you go
and
rework your exit ramps. They might be fine.
I recently
reworked my exit ramps on my Cheetah due to a "warmer" than
I'd
like
#4 cyl, cracks in my metal exit ramps and a newly minted
A&P ticket that
allowed
me to do it. I have only flown it once and
the results looked promising.
Tommorrow I hope to gather more flight
data. I currently have a JP CHT/EGT
and
in climb prior to the ramp
work could occasionally hit 450 (my and Lycomings
redline).=C2- I could
easily get into the 430's in climb and have to nose over
and
or
throttle back to arrest the CHT rise.=C2- When I had the EI CHT gauge
I
never
saw anything above 390.
After reworking the ramps I do
expect to go faster, climb higher and do it
all
with 1/3 flaps
deployed for less gallons per hour. I just had to throw that
in
in
case there aren't
enough emotionally loaded topics to write
about.
John Horton
HC Cheetah
Sensenich Prop
=C2------ Original Message -----
Fr
om: Gil Alexander
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
Gary,
How many STCs have you installed with poor/bad/wrong
instructions?=C2- And the CHT/EGT monitor STCs are quite "generic" n
ot
really airframe specific.
My latest one was my Plane Power voltage regulator.=C2- Works fine,
but needed spacers to clear the "bumps" on the fire wall - hardly a
drop-in exact replacement for the non flat bottom mechanical regulator
-
and no mention in the STC instructions.
Your plane seems to be the only test case reporting the problem.=C2-
I'm happy with the Insight GEM in mine with it's probes that touch the
thermowell bottom like I believe the Lycoming test bayonet probes did
during their certification.
As an electronics engineer, I know I would not design sensitive
millivolts
equipment using grounded sensors.... but that's just me.... and
my stuff is (or has been) working in military aircraft and space
vehicles....:^)
gil A
PS ...I like the GEM unit, but I have the20"bars on
ly" version - I
would prefer the version with numbers - a probable future upgrade.
PPS=C2- Sorry about the formatting of the mV chart in my previous
e-mail
Here is an alternate link to another table of National Institute of
Standards and Technology output voltages from a Type J thermocouple
-
http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf
This shows how small the DC voltages are that we are
measuring.
At 05:40 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we
are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would personally vote
for
grounding issues.=C3=82
MY PLANE? =C3=82 Ok, maybe your right. =C3=82 The grounds in installed
according to the STC were done wrong. =C3=82 Maybe the probes ground
ing
20 against brand new cylinders had corrosion built up in them. =C3=82
=C2-
Maybe planes experiencing CHT readings higher on a JPI than on an EI
also followed the installation i
nstructions.
How about you doing your own testing and report your own
20 results?
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:03 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
This is only true if, and it's a big IF, the temperatures
displayed on todays instrumentation "WOULD" have displayed the sam
e
temperatures as those recorded by Lycoming technicians=C3=83
=9A on the
instrumentation used by Lycoming. =C3=83=9A=C3=82=C2-
Gary... I don't belief that is a big "IF"...
The electrical characteristics of a type J thermocouple have been
well known from long before WWII.
The electrical instrument
ation bit has not changed over the years as
far as the basic thermocouple, especially when used in an engine tes
t
cell.=C3=82=C2- I bet Lycoming had individual CHT meters directly
conn
ected
to the probes, none of this fancy digital switching, scanning
stuff....:^)
Today the probes and the interconnect may be different, but the a
type J thermocouple h
as always created the same amount of voltage due to
physics.
There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we
are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would personally vote fo
r
grounding issues.=C3=82=C2- You can see from the table below that
10
degrees Centigrade is about a 1/2 milliVolt change.=C3=82=C2- Try
a direct
wire from GND on your EI gauge to the engine.
This is from Sandia labs...=C3=82=C2- gil A
=C3=82 ITS-90 Table for type J=C3=82=C2- thermocouple
=C3=82 =C3=82=C2=B0C=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82 =C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
1=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 2=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82
3=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 4=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82
5=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 6=C3=82 =C3=82=2
0=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
7=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 8=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82
9=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 10
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=8220=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
Thermoelectric Voltage in mV
=C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82=C2- 0.000=C3=82=C2- 0.050=C3=82=C2- 0.101
=C
3=C2- 0.151=C3=82
0.202=C3=82=C2- 0.253=C3=82=C2- 0.303=C3=82=C2- 0.354=C3=82=C2- 0.40
5=C3=82=C2-
0.456=C3=82
0.507
=C3=82=C2- 10=C3=82=C2- 0.507=C3=82=C2- 0.558=C3=82=C2- 0.609=C3=82
=C2- 0.660=C3=82
0.711=C3=82=C2- 0.762=C3=82=C2- 0.814=C3=82=C2- 0.865=C3=82=C2- 0.91
6=C3=82=C2-
0.968=C3=82
1.019
=C3=82=C2- 20=C3=82=C2- 1.019=C3=82=C2- 1.071
=C2-1.122=C3=82=C2- 1.174=C3=82
1.226=C3=82=C2- 1.277=C3=82=C2- 1.329=C3=82=C2- 1.381=C3=82=C2- 1.43
3=C3=82=C2-
1.485=C3=82
1.537
=C3=82=C2- 30=C3=82=C2- 1.537=C3=82=C2- 1.589=C3=82=C2- 1.641=C3=82
=C2- 1.693=C3=82
1.745=C3=82=C2- 1.797=C3=82=C2- 1.849=C3=82=C2- 1.902=C3=82=C2- 1.95
4=C3=82=C2-
2.006=C3=82
2.059
=C3=82=C2- 40=C3=82=C2- 2.059=C3=82=C2- 2.111=C3=82=C2- 2.164=C3=82
=C2- 2.216=C3=82
2.269=C3=82=C2- 2.322=C3=82=C2- 2.374=C3=82=C2- 2.427=C3=82=C2- 2.48
0=C3=82=C2-
2.532=C3=82
2.585
=C3=82=C2-
=C3=82=C2- 50=C3=82=C2- 2.585=C3=82=C2- 2.6382=C2- 2.691=C3=82=C2
- 2.744=C3=82
2.797=C3=82=C2- 2.850=C3=82=C2- 2.903=C3=82=C2- 2.956=C3=82=C2- 3.00
9=C3=82=C2-
3.062=C3=82
3.116
=C3=82=C2- 60=C3=82=C2- 3.116=C3=82=C2- 3.169C3=C2- 3.222=C3=82=C2
- 3.275=C3=82
3.329=C3=82=C2- 3.382=C3=82=C2- 3.436=C3=82=C2- 3.489=C3=82=C2- 3.54
3=C3=82=C2-
3.596=C3=82
3.650
=C3=82=C2- 70=C3=82=C2- 3.650=C3=82=C2- 3.703=C3=82=C2- 3.757=C3=82
=C2- 3.810=C3=82
3.864=C3=82=C2- 3.918=C3=82=C2- 3.971=C3=82=C2- 4.025=C3=82=C2- 4.07
9=C3=82=C2-
4.133=C3=82
4.187
=0
A=C3=82=C2- 80=C3=82=C2- 4.187=C3=82=C2- 4.240=C3=82=C2- 4.294=C3
=82=C2- 4.348=C3=82
4.402=C3=82=C2- 4.456=C3=82=C2- 4.510=C3=82=C2- 4.564=C3=82=C2- 4.61
8=C3=82=C2-
4.672=C3=82
4.726
=C3=82=C2- 90=C3=82=C2- 4.726=C3=82=C2- 4.781=C3=82=C2- 4.835=C3=82
=C2- 4.889=C3=82
4.943=C3=82=C2- 4.997=C3=82=C2- 5.052=C3=82=C2- 5.106=C3=82=C2- 5.16
0=C3=82=C2-
5.215=C3=82
5.269
=C3=82=C2-
=C3=82 100=C3=82=C2- 5.269=C3=82=C2- 5.323=C3=82=C2- 5.378=C3=82=C2
- 5.432=C3=82
5.487=C3=82=C2- 5.541=C3=82=C2- 5.595=C3=82=C2- 5.650=C3=82=C2- 5.70
5=C3=82=C2-
5.759=C3=82
5.814
=C3=82 110=C3=82=C2- 5.814=C3=82=C2- 5.868=C3=82=C2- 5.923=C3=82=C2
- 5.977=C3=82
6.032=C3=82=C2- 6.087=C3=82=C2- 6.141=C3=82=C2- 6.196=C3=82=C2- 6.25
1=C3=82=C2-
6.306=C3=82
6.360
=C3=82 120=C3=82=C2- 6.360=C3=82=C2- 6.415=C3=82=C2- 6.470=C3=82=C2
- 6.525=C3=82
6.579=C3=82=C2- 6.634=C3=82=C2- 6.689=C3=82=C2- 6.744=C
3=C2- 6.799=C3=82=C2-
6.854=C3=82
6.909
=C3=82 130=C3=82=C2- 6.909=C3=82=C2- 6.964=C3=82=C2- 7.019=C3=82=C2
- 7.074=C3=82
7.129=C3=82=C2- 7.184=C3=82=C2- 7.239=C3=82=C2- 7.29
4=C3=82=C2- 7.349=C3=82=C2-
7.404=C3=82
7.459
=C3=82 140=C3=82=C2- 7.4590 7.514=C3=82=C2- 7.569=C3=82=C2- 7.624=C3
=82
7.679=C3=82=C2- 7.734=C3=82=C2- 7.789=C3=82=C2- 7.844=C3=82=C2- 7.90
0=C3=82=C2-
7.955=C3=82
8.010
=C3=82=C2-
=C3=82 150=C3=82=C2- 8.010=C3=82=C2- 8.065=C3=82=C2- 8.120=C3=82=C2
- 8.175=C3=82
8.231=C3=82=C2- 8.286=C3=82=C2- 8.341=C3=82=C2- 8.396
=C3=82=C2- 8.452=C3=82=C2-
8.507=C3=82
8.562
=C3=82 160=C3=82=C2- 8.562=C3=82=C2- 8.618=C3=82=C2- 8.673=C3=82=C2
- 8.728=C3=82
8.783=C3=82=C2- 8.839=C3=82=C2- 8.894=C3=82=C2- 8.949=C3=82=C2- 9.00
5=C3=82=C2-
9.060=C3=82
9.115
=C3=82 170=C3=82=C2- 9.115=C3=82=C2- 9.171=C3=82=C2- 9.226=C3=82=C2
- 9.282=C3=82
9.337=C3=82=C2- 9.392=C3=82=C2- 9.448=C3=82=C2- 9.503=C3=82=C2- 9.55
9=C3=82=C2-
9.614=C3=82
9.669
=C3=82 180=C3=82=C2- 9.669=C3=82=C2- 9.725=C3=82=C2- 9.780=C3=82=C2
- 9.836=C3=82
9.891=C3=82=C2- 9.947 10.002 10.057 10.113 10.168 10.224
=C3=82 190 10.224 10.279 10.335 10.390 10.446 10.501 10.557 10.612 10.668
10.723 10.779
=C3=82=C2-
=C3=82 200 10.779 10.834 10.890 10.945 11.001 11.056 11.112 11.167 11.223
11.278 11.334
=C3=82 210 11.334 11.389 11.445 11.501 11.556 11.612 11.667 11.723 11.778
11.834 11.889
=C3=82 220 11.889 11.945 12.000 12.056 12.111 12.167 12.222 12.278 12.334
12.389 12.445
=C3=82 230 12.445 12.500 12.556 12.611 12.667 12.722 12.7
78 12.833 12.889
12.944 13.000
=C3=82 240 13.000 13.056 13.111 13.167 13.222 13.278 13.333 13.389 13.444
13.500 13.555
=C3=82=C2-
=C3=82 250 13.555 13.611 13.666 13.722 13.777 13.833 13.888 13.944 13.999
14.055 14.110
=C3=82 260 14.110 14.166 14.221 14.277 14.332 14.388 14.443 14.499 14.554
14.609 14.665
=C3=82 270 14.665 14.720 14.776 14.831 14.887 14.942 14.998 15.053 15.109
15.164 15.21
9
=C3=82 280 15.219 15.275 15.330 15.386 15.441 15.496 15.552 15.607 15.663
15.718 15.773
=C3=82 290 15.773 15.829 15.884 15.940 15.995 16.050 16.106 16.161 16.
216
16.272 16.327
or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
p://forums.matronics.com
ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.
?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fs
c%3D668072%26hmp
gID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62">
See yours in just 2 easy steps!
href="
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="
http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
">http://www.matronics.com/c
or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
===============3
D===================
p://forums.matronics.com
ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
3/28/2009 7:16 AM
We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
ch as List Un/Subscription,
or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
p://forums.matronics.com
ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Abo
ve. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
_-3D
p://forums.matronics.com
ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
===========
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 12:34:58 PM PST US
From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
Into the mix but a completely different type of sensor.
No thermocouples here - it's either a resistive
sensor, or a semiconductor junction type sensor.
Apples and Oranges.... gilA
At 10:43 AM 3/30/2009, you wrote:
>Just to add to the mix. =C2
>
>On the flight tests, we also measured Oil Temp
>and OAT with the EI. =C2 Oil temp was measured at
>the oil filter adaptor and OAT was a probe stuck out the canopy at the top.
=C2
>
>Oil temp on the EI was within 5 degrees of the
>oil temp measured by the JPI in the front right galley plug.
>
>Oat on the JPI was slightly colder, 1 to 4
>degrees, with the JPI probed located under the
>left wing at the most forward inspection cover.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: teamgrumman@aol.com
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:23 am
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
>Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the
>two different styles of EI probes, bayonet and
>standard P-100, that he tested and found very
>little difference between the two.=C2 The large
>differences in temperature mentioned are between
>JPI with the bayonet and EI with the fixed
>probe.=C2 And all the accusations, or
>implications at least, are that the fixed EI
>probe does not measure the true
>temperature.=C2 There is a real possibility that
>it could be due to something completely different.
>=C2
>Cliff
>
>Finally, Cliff, you hit the nail on the head. =C2
>I agree. =C2 There is a real possibility there is
>something going on that could account for the
>differences in temperatures. =C2 I doubt, seriously, that it is just the
probes.
>
>And. =C2 It has nothing to do with a recent change
>in vendors. =C2 I first noticed this difference
>around 1995 when I installed my first JPI 700. =C2
>
>And. =C2 It isn't just my plane. =C2 I installed a
>JPI 700 in one Comanche and a JPI 800 in another
>Comanche in place of previously installed EI
>units. =C2 Both owners came back saying their
>engines were running hot. =C2 One owner, the 700,
>bought another EI and had me put it in instead.
>=C2 The other owner was willing to accept th e higher readings.
>
>Gil. =C2 Just how many grounds is enough? =C2 Are
>you concerned about ground loops? =C2 I've run the
>ground to a common avionics ground AND to the
>ground on the engine from the avionics ground. =C2
>No change. =C2 I've tried just the avionics
>ground. =C2 I've tried just the engine ground. =C2 No change. =C2
>
>Like I wrote in the STAR, the temps start out
>the same before start-up. =C2 The JPI temps rise
>faster and to a higher reading than the EI temps.
>
>And. =C2 There is no way to know the actual test set up used by Lycoming.
C2
>
>I have an old Gem in a box somewhere. =C2 It has
>no digital readout. =C2 Gil, if yours has no
>digital readout, with 25 degree per bar
>accuracy, how do you know what the temperature is? =C2
>
>And. Speculation: =C2 I would expect that the
>makers of these analyzers took into
>consideration various millivolt differences. =C2
>If they saw differences of 3 degrees, I doubt they cared.
>
>And. =C2 If this had only happened to one
>installation, then I would look at the
>installation. =C2 It is a universal experience that the JPI reads higher.
=C2
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: flyv35b <<mailto:flyv35b@minetfiber.com>flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
>To: <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 7:35 pm
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
>Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the
>two different styles of EI probes, bayonet and
>standard P-100, that he tested and found very
>little difference between the two.=C2 The large
>differences in temperature mentioned are between
>JPI with the bayonet and EI with the fixed
>probe.=C2 And all the accusations, or
>implications at least, are that the fixed EI
>probe does not measure the true
>temperature.=C2 There is a real possibility
>that=2 0it could be due to something completely different.
>=C2
>Cliff
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:gilalex@earthlink.net>Gil Alexander
>To: <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:13 PM
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
>Ned... I believe the GG post you refer to still
>references Gary's EI/JPI measurements....:^)
>
>He just says below that the EI non-bayonet
>probes read lower - which does not seem to be in dispute....:^)
>
>And do you really think Lycoming used a
>non-MIL-Spec probe, especially in the 60's, for
>certification?=C2 I vote for probes that touch the cylinder.
>
>gil A
>
>At 07:05 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
>>I started this thread b ecause of similar
>>thread that was started on the GG. I understood
>>one poster to say that he too had experienced
>>higher readings with JPI type probes that
>>actually touch the thermowell. He had both in
>>his Cheetah and found that the probes that
>>touch the head actually give a higher reading.
>>=C2
>>So in answer to Gil's post it appears that
>>others have noted the diffenece in temp readings besides Gary.
>>=C2
>>Someone at Lycoming needs to answer this
>>question, at least the question of the type of
>>probe they used. Right now we are just
>>speculating on what type of probe they used.
>>=C2
>>Ned
>>=C2
>>Here is the post I refer to:
>>=C2
>>=C2
>>----- Original Message ----- From: <mailto:hortonjf@comcast.net>John
Horton
>>To: <mailto:3d.flyguy@abszero.com>'Dave
>>Kalwick' ; <mailto:grumman-gang@xmission.com>'GG'
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:19 PM
>>Subject: RE: Tiger outlet ramps - More Info Req.
>>
>>Dave,
>>I would direct you to look at
>>http://www.bondline.org/wiki/Lower_Cowling_Split< /a>
>>for info about reworking the exit ramps.=C2 That link will only provide
info
>>about
>>the metal exit ramps but that's half the options.
>>
>>When you mention that your temps are "warm" be sure to review the GG
archives
>>about JPI instrumentation vs EI instrumentation. There are differences in
>>probe
>>design that make JPI read higher that EI in what should be the same
cylinder.
>>So if you have JP CHT and think your running "warm" you might be just fine
if
>>you had EI CHT.=C2 Theres a good bit of reading in the archives on that
topic.
>>My
>>consensus after reviewing (and I might still have it wrong) is that JP CHT
>>reads
>>hotter than EI due to the fact that the JP CHT probe actually is spring
>>loaded
>>to touch the cyl head. The EI CHT probe screws into a space in the cyl
head.
>>I
>>have had both in my plane (Cheetah) and can verify that fact. The pro bes
are
>>different and the JP touches the head and reads hotter.
>>
>>So if you have=C2 JP CHT gauge and it reads 420
>>in climb your most likely fine.
>>(Assuming the temp goes down when you level out) The same plane may well
read
>>385 with a EI CHT and it is fine also. Be sure to know your temp source
(EI
>>or
>>JP) and read the archives to get a feel for the differences before you go
and
>>rework your exit ramps. They might be fine.
>>
>>I recently reworked my exit ramps on my Cheetah due to a "warmer" than I'd
>>like
>>#4 cyl, cracks in my metal exit ramps and a newly minted A&P ticket that
>>allowed
>>me to do it. I have only flown it once and the results looked promising.
>>Tommorrow I hope to gather more flight data. I currently have a JP CHT/EGT
>>and
>>in climb prior to the ramp work could occasionally hit 450 (my and
Lycomings
>>redline).=C2 I could easily get into the 430's in climb and have to nose
over
>>and
>>or throttle back to arrest the CHT rise.=C2 When
>>I had the EI CHT gauge I never
>>saw anything above 390.
>>
>>After reworking the ramps I do expect to go faster, climb higher and do it
>>all
>>with 1/3 flaps deployed for less gallons per hour. I just had to throw
that
>>in
>>in case there aren't enough emotionally loaded topics to write about.
>>
>>John Horton
>>HC Cheetah
>>Sensenich Prop
>>=C2 ----- Original Message -----
>>From: <mailto:gilalex@earthlink.net>Gil Alexander
>>To: <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matro nics.com>teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>>Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 8:41 PM
>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>>Gary,
>>How many STCs have you installed with
>>poor/bad/wrong instructions?=C2 And the CHT/EGT
>>monitor STCs are quite "generic" not really airframe specific.
>>My latest one was my Plane Power voltage
>>regulator.=C2 Works fine, but needed spacers to
>>clear the "bumps" on the fire wall - hardly a
>>drop-in exact replacement for the non flat
>>bottom mechanical regulator - and no mention in the STC instructions.
>>Your plane seems to be the only test case
>>reporting the problem.=C2 I'm happy with the
>>Insight GEM in mine with it's probes that touch
>>the thermowell bottom like I believe the
>>Lycoming test bayonet probes did during their certification.
>>As an electronics engineer, I know I would not
>>design sensitive millivolts equipment using
>>grounded sensors.... but that's just me.... and
>>my stuff is (or has been) working in military
>>aircraft and space vehicles....:^)
>>gil A
>>PS ...I like the GEM unit, but I have the "bars
>>on ly" version - I would prefer the version
>>with numbers - a probable future upgrade.
>>PPS=C2 Sorry about the formatting of the mV chart in my previous e-mail
>>Here is an alternate link to another table of
>>National Institute of Standards and Technology
>>output voltages from a Type J thermocouple -
>>
>><http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf>http://www.omega.com/temp
erature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf
>>This shows how small the DC voltages are that we are measuring.
>>At 05:40 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
>>>There is something else going on here in your
>>>plane - and since we are dealing with
>>>fractions of milliVolts, I would personally vote for grounding issues.=C3
=82
>>>
>>>MY PLANE? =C3=82 Ok, maybe your right. =C3=82 The
>>>grounds in installed according to the STC were
>>>done wrong. =C3=82 Maybe the probes grounding 20
>>>against brand new cylinders had corrosion built up in them. =C3=82=C2
>>>Maybe planes experiencing CHT readings higher
>>>on a JPI than on an EI also followed the installation i nstructions.
>>>How about you doing your own testing and report your own results?
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Gil Alexander <<mailto:gilalex@earthlink.net>gilalex@earthlink.net>
>>>To: <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>>>Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:03 pm
>>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>>>
>>>
>>>>This is only true if, and it's a big IF, the
>>>>temperatures displayed on todays
>>>>instrumentation "WOULD" have displayed the
>>>>same temperatures as those recorded by
>>>>Lycoming technicians=C3=83=9A on the instrumentation used by
Lycoming. =C3=83=82=C3=82=C2
>>>Gary... I don't belief that is a big "IF"...
>>>The electrical characteristics of a type J
>>>thermocouple have been well known from long before WWII.
>>>The electrical instrument ation bit has not
>>>changed over the years as far as the basic
>>>thermocouple, especially when used in an
>>>engine test cell.=C3=82=C2 I bet Lycoming had
>>>individual CHT meters directly conn ected to
>>>the probes, none of this fancy digital switching, scanning stuff....:^)
>>>Today the probes and the interconnect may be
>>>different, but the a type J thermocouple has
>>>always created the same amount of voltage due to physics.
>>>There is something else going on here in your
>>>plane - and since we are dealing with
>>>fractions of milliVolts, I would personally
>>>vote for grounding issues.=C3=82=C2 You can see
>>>from the table below that 10 degrees
>>>Centigrade is about a 1/2 milliVolt
>>>change.=C3=82=C2 Try a direct wire from GND on your EI gauge to the
engine.
>>>This is from Sandia labs...=C3=82=C2 gil A
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 ITS-90 Table for type J=C3=82=C2 thermocouple
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 =C3=82=C2=B0C=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 0=C3=82 =C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>1=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 2=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82
>>>
>>>
>>>3=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 4=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82
>>>
>>>
>>>5=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 6=C3=82 =C3=82=2
>>>
>>>0=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>7=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 8=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82
>>>
>>>
>>>9=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 10
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=8220=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>>>=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>Thermoelectric Voltage in mV
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 =C3=82=C2 0=C3=82=C2 0.000=C3=82=C2 0.050=C3=82=C2 0.101=C3=82
=C2 0.151=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>0.202=C3=82=C2 0.253=C3=82=C2 0.303=C3=82=C2 0.354=C3=82=C2 0.405=C3
=82=C2
>>>
>>>0.456=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>0.507
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82=C2 10=C3=82=C2 0.507=C3=82=C2 0.558=C3=82=C2 0.609=C3=82=C2
0.660=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>0.711=C3=82=C2 0.762=C3=82=C2 0.814=C3=82=C2 0.865=C3=82=C2 0.916=C3
=82=C2
>>>
>>>0.968=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>1.019
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82=C2 20=C3=82=C2 1.019=C3=82=C2 1.071
>>>
>>>
>>>=C2 1.122=C3=82=C2 1.174=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>1.226=C3=82=C2 1.277=C3=82=C2 1.329=C3=82=C2 1.381=C3=82=C2 1.433=C3
=82=C2
>>>
>>>1.485=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>1.537
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82=C2 30=C3=82=C2 1.537=C3=82=C2 1.589=C3=82=C2 1.641=C3=82=C2
1.693=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>1.745=C3=82=C2 1.797=C3=82=C2 1.849=C3=82=C2 1.902=C3=82=C2 1.954=C3
=82=C2
>>>
>>>2.006=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>2.059
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82=C2 40=C3=82=C2 2.059=C3=82=C2 2.111=C3=82=C2 2.164=C3=82=C2
2.216=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>2.269=C3=82=C2 2.322=C3=82=C2 2.374=C3=82=C2 2.427=C3=82=C2 2.480=C3
=82=C2
>>>
>>>2.532=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>2.585
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82=C2
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82=C2 50=C3=82=C2 2.585=C3=82=C2 2.6382=C2 2.691=C3=82=C2
2.744=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>2.797=C3=82=C2 2.850=C3=82=C2 2.903=C3=82=C2 2.956=C3=82=C2 3.009=C3
=82=C2
>>>
>>>3.062=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>3.116
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82=C2 60=C3=82=C2 3.116=C3=82=C2 3.169C3=C2 3.222=C3=82=C2
3.275=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>3.329=C3=82=C2 3.382=C3=82=C2 3.436=C3=82=C2 3.489=C3=82=C2 3.543=C3
=82=C2
>>>
>>>3.596=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>3.650
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82=C2 70=C3=82=C2 3.650=C3=82=C2 3.703=C3=82=C2 3.757=C3=82=C2
3.810=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>3.864=C3=82=C2 3.918=C3=82=C2 3.971=C3=82=C2 4.025=C3=82=C2 4.079=C3
=82=C2
>>>
>>>4.133=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>4.187
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82=C2 80=C3=82=C2 4.187=C3=82=C2 4.240=C3=82=C2 4.294=C3=82=C2
4.348=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>4.402=C3=82=C2 4.456=C3=82=C2 4.510=C3=82=C2 4.564=C3=82=C2 4.618=C3
=82=C2
>>>
>>>4.672=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>4.726
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82=C2 90=C3=82=C2 4.726=C3=82=C2 4.781=C3=82=C2 4.835=C3=82=C2
4.889=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>4.943=C3=82=C2 4.997=C3=82=C2 5.052=C3=82=C2 5.106=C3=82=C2 5.160=C3
=82=C2
>>>
>>>5.215=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>5.269
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82=C2
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 100=C3=82=C2 5.269=C3=82=C2 5.323=C3=82=C2 5.378=C3=82=C2
5.432=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>5.487=C3=82=C2 5.541=C3=82=C2 5.595=C3=82=C2 5.650=C3=82=C2 5.705=C3
=82=C2
>>>
>>>5.759=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>5.814
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 110=C3=82=C2 5.814=C3=82=C2 5.868=C3=82=C2 5.923=C3=82=C2
5.977=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>6.032=C3=82=C2 6.087=C3=82=C2 6.141=C3=82=C2 6.196=C3=82=C2 6.251=C3
=82=C2
>>>
>>>6.306=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>6.360
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 120=C3=82=C2 6.360=C3=82=C2 6.415=C3=82=C2 6.470=C3=82=C2
6.525=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>6.579=C3=82=C2 6.634=C3=82=C2 6.689=C3=82=C2 6.744=C
>>>
>>>3=C2 6.799=C3=82=C2
>>>
>>>6.854=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>6.909
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 130=C3=82=C2 6.909=C3=82=C2 6.964=C3=82=C2 7.019=C3=82=C2
7.074=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>7.129=C3=82=C2 7.184=C3=82=C2 7.239=C3=82=C2 7.29
>>>
>>>4=C3=82=C2 7.349=C3=82=C2
>>>
>>>7.404=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>7.459
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 140=C3=82=C2 7.4590 7.514=C3=82=C2 7.569=C3=82=C2 7.624=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>7.679=C3=82=C2 7.734=C3=82=C2 7.789=C3=82=C2 7.844=C3=82=C2 7.900=C3
=82=C2
>>>
>>>7.955=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>8.010
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82=C2
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 150=C3=82=C2 8.010=C3=82=C2 8.065=C3=82=C2 8.120=C3=82=C2
8.175=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>8.231=C3=82=C2 8.286=C3=82=C2 8.341=C3=82=C2 8.396=C3=82=C2 8.452=C3
=82=C2
>>>
>>>8.507=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>8.562
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 160=C3=82=C2 8.562=C3=82=C2 8.618=C3=82=C2 8.673=C3=82=C2
8.728=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>8.783=C3=82=C2 8.839=C3=82=C2 8.894=C3=82=C2 8.949=C3=82=C2 9.005=C3
=82=C2
>>>
>>>9.060=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>9.115
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 170=C3=82=C2 9.115=C3=82=C2 9.171=C3=82=C2 9.226=C3=82=C2
9.282=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>9.337=C3=82=C2 9.392=C3=82=C2 9.448=C3=82=C2 9.503=C3=82=C2 9.559=C3
=82=C2
>>>
>>>9.614=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>9.669
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 180=C3=82=C2 9.669=C3=82=C2 9.725=C3=82=C2 9.780=C3=82=C2
9.836=C3=82
>>>
>>>
>>>9.891=C3=82=C2 9.947 10.002 10.057 10.113 10.168 10.224
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 190 10.224 10.279 10.335 10.390 10.446 10.501 10.557 10.612 10.668
>>>
>>>
>>>10.723 10.779
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82=C2
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 200 10.779 10.834 10.890 10.945 11.001 11.056 11.112 11.167 11.223
>>>
>>>
>>>11.278 11.334
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 210 11.334 11.389 11.445 11.501 11.556 11.612 11.667 11.723 11.778
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>11.834 11.889
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 220 11.889 11.945 12.000 12.056 12.111 12.167 12.222 12.278 12.334
>>>
>>>
>>>12.389 12.445
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 230 12.445 12.500 12.556 12.611 12.667 12.722 12.7
>>>
>>>78 12.833 12.889
>>>
>>>
>>>12.944 13.000
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 240 13.000 13.056 13.111 13.167 13.222 13.278 13.333 13.389 13.444
>>>
>>>
>>>13.500 13.555
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82=C2
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 250 13.555 13.611 13.666 13.722 13.777 13.833 13.888 13.944 13.999
>>>
>>>
>>>14.055 14.110
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 260 14.110 14.166 14.221 14.277 14.332 14.388 14.443 14.499 14.554
>>>
>>>
>>>14.609 14.665
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 270 14.665 14.720 14.776 14.831 14.887 14.942 14.998 15.053 15.109
>>>
>>>
>>>15.164 15.219
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 280 15.219 15.275 15.330 15.386 15.441 15.496 15.552 15.607 15.663
>>>
>>>
>>>15.718 15.773
>>>
>>>
>>>=C3=82 290 15.773 15.829 15.884 15.940 15.995 16.050 16.106 16.161 16.
>>>
>>>
>>>216
>>>
>>>
>>>16.272 16.327
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>or?TeamGrumman-List"><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>>>
>>>
>>>p://forums.matronics.com
>>>
>>>
>>>ution"><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/co
ntribution
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----------
>>>A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.
>>>?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D6
68072%26hmp
>>>gID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62"> See yours in just 2 easy steps!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>href="
>>
>>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>>
>>"><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List>http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>>
>>
>>href="
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com"><http://forums.matronics.com>http://forums.ma
tronics.com
>>
>>
>>
>>href="
>>
>>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>"><http://www.matronics.com/c>http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>or?TeamGrumman-List"><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List>h
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>
>===============3
>
>D===================
>
>p://forums.matronics.com
>
>ution"><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/cont
ribution
>
>
>----------
>3/28/2009 7:16 AM
>
>
>----------
>I am using the Free version of <http://www.spamfighter.com/len>SPAMfighter.
>We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
>
>
>ch as List Un/Subscription,
>or?TeamGrumman-List"><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List>h
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>p://forums.matronics.com
>ution"><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/cont
ribution
>
>
>----------
>A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
>
>
>or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>_-3D
>p://forums.matronics.com
>ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>----------
>A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.
http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpg
ID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62>See
>yours in just 2 easy steps!
>
________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 01:39:18 PM PST US
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: reciting thread posts
From: "grumpyparts" <i.r.m@btinternet.com>
For any of you out there that is finding the EIvsJPI thread interesting like
me,
but finding it hard to follow at times with all those emails may I suggest
you
follow it on the teamgrumman forum list, you should get a link from the
message
below.
It's far easier to follow being able to flick back though all the earlier
posts
in case I've missed something, also I can delete all the emails and just look
at the forum once a day to get the updates. Try it.
Tip just keep the title the same so as not to create another topic.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236914#236914
________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
Time: 07:02:44 PM PST US
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: EI vs JPI
From: "az_gila" <gilalex@earthlink.net>
OK... now the point of discussion has morphed a bit.
I thought it was "Bayonet probes vs. short, fixed probes" for CHTs.
It seems to be now "JPI reads higher than EI" - which is quite a different
issue.
This gets into the electronic circuits used and how the manufacturers
calibrate
their equipment.
gil A - a little confused... [Wink]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236970#236970
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 03/30/09 |
FUCK YOU ALL .... BE SMARTASS JERKS IF YOU LIKE I WAS JUST MAKING A
COMMENT THAT IT MAKES IT UNREADABLE.
PLEASE COME BE A SMART ASS At A FLY IN.
On Mar 31, 2009, at 2:59 AM, TeamGrumman-List Digest Server wrote:
> *
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
> Today's complete TeamGrumman-List Digest can also be found in either
> of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
> formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked
> Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII
> version
> of the TeamGrumman-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
> editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 09-03-30&Archive=TeamGrumman
>
> Text Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 09-03-30&Archive=TeamGrumman
>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Mon 03/30/09: 10
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 06:49 AM - Re: Re: EI vs JPI (flyv35b)
> 2. 07:21 AM - EI vs JPI (Thomas Campbell)
> 3. 07:48 AM - Re: EI vs JPI (flyv35b)
> 4. 09:42 AM - Re: reciting thread posts (923te)
> 5. 10:27 AM - Re: Re: EI vs JPI (teamgrumman@aol.com)
> 6. 10:46 AM - Re: Re: EI vs JPI (teamgrumman@aol.com)
> 7. 11:32 AM - Re: Re: EI vs JPI (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
> 8. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: EI vs JPI (Gil Alexander)
> 9. 01:39 PM - Re: reciting thread posts (grumpyparts)
> 10. 07:02 PM - Re: EI vs JPI (az_gila)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:49:50 AM PST US
> From: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
> This has been my point, there is very little difference between the
> two
> types of probes. If I recall this data from Steve was obtained on
> different flights so the 3.5F is probably within the margin of error.
> We don't have all the data or evidence yet and the jury is still out.
>
> Cliff
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: 923te
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:48 PM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
>
> Steve's conclusion "the EI longer P-101 probe does indeed read hotter
> than the short P-100 probe by about 3.5 degrees F"
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: flyv35b
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 9:35 PM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
>
> Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two different
> styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard P-100, that he tested and
> found very little difference between the two. The large differences
> in
> temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with the
> fixed probe. And all the accusations, or implications at least, are
> that the fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.
> There is
> a real possibility that it could be due to something completely
> different.
>
> Cliff
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gil Alexander
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:13 PM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
>
> Ned... I believe the GG post you refer to still references Gary's
> EI/JPI measurements....:^)
>
> He just says below that the EI non-bayonet probes read lower -
> which does not seem to be in dispute....:^)
>
> And do you really think Lycoming used a non-MIL-Spec probe,
> especially in the 60's, for certification? I vote for probes that
> touch
> the cylinder.
>
> gil A
>
> At 07:05 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
>
> I started this thread because of similar thread that was
> started
> on the GG. I understood one poster to say that he too had experienced
> higher readings with JPI type probes that actually touch the
> thermowell.
> He had both in his Cheetah and found that the probes that touch the
> head
> actually give a higher reading.
>
> So in answer to Gil's post it appears that others have noted
> the
> diffenece in temp readings besides Gary.
>
> Someone at Lycoming needs to answer this question, at least the
> question of the type of probe they used. Right now we are just
> speculating on what type of probe they used.
>
> Ned
>
> Here is the post I refer to:
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Horton
> To: 'Dave Kalwick' ; 'GG'
> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:19 PM
> Subject: RE: Tiger outlet ramps - More Info Req.
>
> Dave,
> I would direct you to look at
> http://www.bondline.org/wiki/Lower_Cowling_Split
> for info about reworking the exit ramps. That link will only
> provide info
> about
> the metal exit ramps but that's half the options.
>
> When you mention that your temps are "warm" be sure to review
> the GG archives
> about JPI instrumentation vs EI instrumentation. There are
> differences in
> probe
> design that make JPI read higher that EI in what should be the
> same cylinder.
> So if you have JP CHT and think your running "warm" you might
> be
> just fine if
> you had EI CHT. Theres a good bit of reading in the archives
> on
> that topic.
> My
> consensus after reviewing (and I might still have it wrong) is
> that JP CHT
> reads
> hotter than EI due to the fact that the JP CHT probe actually
> is
> spring
> loaded
> to touch the cyl head. The EI CHT probe screws into a space in
> the cyl head.
> I
> have had both in my plane (Cheetah) and can verify that fact.
> The probes are
> different and the JP touches the head and reads hotter.
>
> So if you have JP CHT gauge and it reads 420 in climb your
> most
> likely fine.
> (Assuming the temp goes down when you level out) The same plane
> may well read
> 385 with a EI CHT and it is fine also. Be sure to know your
> temp
> source (EI
> or
> JP) and read the archives to get a feel for the differences
> before you go and
> rework your exit ramps. They might be fine.
>
> I recently reworked my exit ramps on my Cheetah due to a
> "warmer" than I'd
> like
> #4 cyl, cracks in my metal exit ramps and a newly minted A&P
> ticket that
> allowed
> me to do it. I have only flown it once and the results looked
> promising.
> Tommorrow I hope to gather more flight data. I currently have a
> JP CHT/EGT
> and
> in climb prior to the ramp work could occasionally hit 450 (my
> and Lycomings
> redline). I could easily get into the 430's in climb and have
> to nose over
> and
> or throttle back to arrest the CHT rise. When I had the EI CHT
> gauge I never
> saw anything above 390.
>
> After reworking the ramps I do expect to go faster, climb
> higher
> and do it
> all
> with 1/3 flaps deployed for less gallons per hour. I just had
> to
> throw that
> in
> in case there aren't enough emotionally loaded topics to write
> about.
>
> John Horton
> HC Cheetah
> Sensenich Prop
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Gil Alexander
>
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 8:41 PM
>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
>
> Gary,
>
>
> How many STCs have you installed with poor/bad/wrong
> instructions? And the CHT/EGT monitor STCs are quite "generic" not
> really airframe specific.
>
>
> My latest one was my Plane Power voltage regulator. Works
> fine, but needed spacers to clear the "bumps" on the fire wall -
> hardly
> a drop-in exact replacement for the non flat bottom mechanical
> regulator
> - and no mention in the STC instructions.
>
>
> Your plane seems to be the only test case reporting the
> problem. I'm happy with the Insight GEM in mine with it's probes that
> touch the thermowell bottom like I believe the Lycoming test bayonet
> probes did during their certification.
>
>
> As an electronics engineer, I know I would not design
> sensitive millivolts equipment using grounded sensors.... but that's
> just me.... and my stuff is (or has been) working in military aircraft
> and space vehicles....:^)
>
>
> gil A
>
>
> PS ...I like the GEM unit, but I have the "bars only" version
> - I would prefer the version with numbers - a probable future upgrade.
>
>
> PPS Sorry about the formatting of the mV chart in my
> previous
> e-mail
>
>
> Here is an alternate link to another table of National
> Institute of Standards and Technology output voltages from a Type J
> thermocouple -
>
>
> http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf
>
>
> This shows how small the DC voltages are that we are
> measuring.
>
>
> At 05:40 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
> There is something else going on here in your plane - and
> since we are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would personally
> vote for grounding issues.=C2
>
>
> MY PLANE? =C2 Ok, maybe your right. =C2 The grounds in
> installed according to the STC were done wrong. =C2 Maybe the probes
> grounding against brand new cylinders had corrosion built up in them.
> =C2
>
>
> Maybe planes experiencing CHT readings higher on a JPI than
> on an EI also followed the installation instructions.
>
>
> How about you doing your own testing and report your own
> results?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
>
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>
> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:03 pm
>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
>
> This is only true if, and it's a big IF, the temperatures
> displayed on todays instrumentation "WOULD" have displayed the same
> temperatures as those recorded by Lycoming technicians=C3, on the
> instrumentation used by Lycoming. =C3,=C2
>
>
> Gary... I don't belief that is a big "IF"...
>
>
> The electrical characteristics of a type J thermocouple
> have
> been well known from long before WWII.
>
>
> The electrical instrumentation bit has not changed over the
> years as far as the basic thermocouple, especially when used in an
> engine test cell.=C2 I bet Lycoming had individual CHT meters
> directly
> connected to the probes, none of this fancy digital switching,
> scanning
> stuff....:^)
>
>
> Today the probes and the interconnect may be different, but
> the a type J thermocouple has always created the same amount of
> voltage
> due to physics.
>
>
> There is something else going on here in your plane - and
> since we are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would personally
> vote for grounding issues.=C2 You can see from the table below that
> 10
> degrees Centigrade is about a 1/2 milliVolt change.=C2 Try a direct
> wire from GND on your EI gauge to the engine.
>
>
> This is from Sandia labs...=C2 gil A
>
>
> =C2 ITS-90 Table for type J=C2 thermocouple
>
> =C2 =C2=B0C=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 0=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
>
> 1=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 2=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
>
> 3=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 4=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
>
> 5=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 6=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
>
> 7=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 8=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
>
> 9=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 10
>
> =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
> =C2
> =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
>
> Thermoelectric Voltage in mV
>
> =C2
>
> =C2 =C2 0=C2 0.000=C2 0.050=C2 0.101=C2 0.151=C2
>
> 0.202=C2 0.253=C2 0.303=C2 0.354=C2 0.405=C2
> 0.456=C2
>
> 0.507
>
> =C2 10=C2 0.507=C2 0.558=C2 0.609=C2 0.660=C2
>
> 0.711=C2 0.762=C2 0.814=C2 0.865=C2 0.916=C2
> 0.968=C2
>
> 1.019
>
> =C2 20=C2 1.019=C2 1.071
>
> 1.122=C2 1.174=C2
>
> 1.226=C2 1.277=C2 1.329=C2 1.381=C2 1.433=C2
> 1.485=C2
>
> 1.537
>
> =C2 30=C2 1.537=C2 1.589=C2 1.641=C2 1.693=C2
>
> 1.745=C2 1.797=C2 1.849=C2 1.902=C2 1.954=C2
> 2.006=C2
>
> 2.059
>
> =C2 40=C2 2.059=C2 2.111=C2 2.164=C2 2.216=C2
>
> 2.269=C2 2.322=C2 2.374=C2 2.427=C2 2.480=C2
> 2.532=C2
>
> 2.585
>
> =C2
>
> =C2 50=C2 2.585=C2 2.638=C2 2.691=C2 2.744=C2
>
> 2.797=C2 2.850=C2 2.903=C2 2.956=C2 3.009=C2
> 3.062=C2
>
> 3.116
>
> =C2 60=C2 3.116=C2 3.169=C2 3.222=C2 3.275=C2
>
> 3.329=C2 3.382=C2 3.436=C2 3.489=C2 3.543=C2
> 3.596=C2
>
> 3.650
>
> =C2 70=C2 3.650=C2 3.703=C2 3.757=C2 3.810=C2
>
> 3.864=C2 3.918=C2 3.971=C2 4.025=C2 4.079=C2
> 4.133=C2
>
> 4.187
>
> =C2 80=C2 4.187=C2 4.240=C2 4.294=C2 4.348=C2
>
> 4.402=C2 4.456=C2 4.510=C2 4.564=C2 4.618=C2
> 4.672=C2
>
> 4.726
>
> =C2 90=C2 4.726=C2 4.781=C2 4.835=C2 4.889=C2
>
> 4.943=C2 4.997=C2 5.052=C2 5.106=C2 5.160=C2
> 5.215=C2
>
> 5.269
>
> =C2
>
> =C2 100=C2 5.269=C2 5.323=C2 5.378=C2 5.432=C2
>
> 5.487=C2 5.541=C2 5.595=C2 5.650=C2 5.705=C2
> 5.759=C2
>
> 5.814
>
> =C2 110=C2 5.814=C2 5.868=C2 5.923=C2 5.977=C2
>
> 6.032=C2 6.087=C2 6.141=C2 6.196=C2 6.251=C2
> 6.306=C2
>
> 6.360
>
> =C2 120=C2 6.360=C2 6.415=C2 6.470=C2 6.525=C2
>
> 6.579=C2 6.634=C2 6.689=C2 6.744=C2 6.799=C2
> 6.854=C2
>
> 6.909
>
> =C2 130=C2 6.909=C2 6.964=C2 7.019=C2 7.074=C2
>
> 7.129=C2 7.184=C2 7.239=C2 7.294=C2 7.349=C2
> 7.404=C2
>
> 7.459
>
> =C2 140=C2 7.4590 7.514=C2 7.569=C2 7.624=C2
>
> 7.679=C2 7.734=C2 7.789=C2 7.844=C2 7.900=C2
> 7.955=C2
>
> 8.010
>
> =C2
>
> =C2 150=C2 8.010=C2 8.065=C2 8.120=C2 8.175=C2
>
> 8.231=C2 8.286=C2 8.341=C2 8.396=C2 8.452=C2
> 8.507=C2
>
> 8.562
>
> =C2 160=C2 8.562=C2 8.618=C2 8.673=C2 8.728=C2
>
> 8.783=C2 8.839=C2 8.894=C2 8.949=C2 9.005=C2
> 9.060=C2
>
> 9.115
>
> =C2 170=C2 9.115=C2 9.171=C2 9.226=C2 9.282=C2
>
> 9.337=C2 9.392=C2 9.448=C2 9.503=C2 9.559=C2
> 9.614=C2
>
> 9.669
>
> =C2 180=C2 9.669=C2 9.725=C2 9.780=C2 9.836=C2
>
> 9.891=C2 9.947 10.002 10.057 10.113 10.168 10.224
>
> =C2 190 10.224 10.279 10.335 10.390 10.446 10.501 10.557 10.612 10.668
>
> 10.723 10.779
>
> =C2
>
> =C2 200 10.779 10.834 10.890 10.945 11.001 11.056 11.112 11.167 11.223
>
> 11.278 11.334
>
> =C2 210 11.334 11.389 11.445 11.501 11.556 11.612 11.667 11.723 11.778
>
> 11.834 11.889
>
> =C2 220 11.889 11.945 12.000 12.056 12.111 12.167 12.222 12.278 12.334
>
> 12.389 12.445
>
> =C2 230 12.445 12.500 12.556 12.611 12.667 12.722 12.778 12.833 12.889
>
> 12.944 13.000
>
> =C2 240 13.000 13.056 13.111 13.167 13.222 13.278 13.333 13.389 13.444
>
> 13.500 13.555
>
> =C2
>
> =C2 250 13.555 13.611 13.666 13.722 13.777 13.833 13.888 13.944 13.999
>
> 14.055 14.110
>
> =C2 260 14.110 14.166 14.221 14.277 14.332 14.388 14.443 14.499 14.554
>
> 14.609 14.665
>
> =C2 270 14.665 14.720 14.776 14.831 14.887 14.942 14.998 15.053 15.109
>
> 15.164 15.219
>
> =C2 280 15.219 15.275 15.330 15.386 15.441 15.496 15.552 15.607 15.663
>
> 15.718 15.773
>
> =C2 290 15.773 15.829 15.884 15.940 15.995 16.050 16.106 16.161 16.
>
> 216
>
> 16.272 16.327
>
>
> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>
> p://forums.matronics.com
>
> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.
> ?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc
> %3D6
> 68072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62"> See yours in just 2
> easy steps!
>
>
> href="
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>
> href="
> http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> href="
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://
> www.m
> atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/c
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> 3/28/2009 7:16 AM
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://
> www.m
> atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/c
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
>
> Checked by AVG.
> 3/28/2009 7:16 AM
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:21:51 AM PST US
> From: Thomas Campbell <airman@appledumplings.com>
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: EI vs JPI
>
>
> #1 you guys really need to learn how to cut the uneeded part of the
> original message when you reply. It takes 10 seconds. I know at
> least one
> of you guys is stubborn because of old GG issues. But man I have
> tried to
> read this forum for some time and it is quite annoying. But on a day
> like
> today where many do it .. it is not just annoying it is unbearable and
> unreadable.
>
> With that said. I recently installed a JPI EDM 700 I previously had
> an
> alcor EGT only. I am seeing 450 on the back cylinders and
> 380-400 on the front sometimes in cruise if I lean
> aggresively.(I have not seen it get higher in climb) Even with
> keeping it
> a bit rich I run 430 on the back.
>
> My history. Atlanta,Ga AA5b 1976 10 years 450 SMOH. Good compressions
> all 74 or higher last 3 annuals with one exception of a 72. Had high
> oil
> temps(1-2 needle widths below redline in summer) and put new baffle
> seal
> and sealed some seams in the side baffles. I still
> wonder about the baffle sheets on the bottom. It doesnt fit well
> next to
> the case in the back bottom. Anyway we checked the gauge and
> vernatherm
> and I gave up and got a bigger cooler. Which helped, now 200-210.
> After all this I put in the JPI and get the above temps. I have not
> gone
> back and had someone check to see if the ground was installed
> correctly. I
> will do this soon. My current A&P also made a comment about the JPI.
> Saying he has had a few people install them and get so distraught that
> they seel theri airplanes or do overhaul early. He seems less
> concerned.
> And he has looked for any overheat indicators.
> I personly have been running it a bit rich because until I am
> assured it
> is instrumentation It just makes me nervous.
>
> Thomas
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:48:50 AM PST US
> From: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: EI vs JPI
>
>
>> #1 you guys really need to learn how to cut the uneeded part of the
>> original message when you reply.
>
> You are so right. I do it on the GG but have been guilty of not
> doing it
> here.
>
> Cliff
>
>
> --
> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
>
> The Professional version does not have this message
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:42:54 AM PST US
> From: "923te" <923te@att.net>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: reciting thread posts
>
> I began leaving in all the reference posts because it made it easy for
> me to forward the thread to someone interested but not on the list.
> One
> copy in one post and he has the whole thread to date.
>
> I don't understand why you would be annoyed. The newest post is the
> first at the top. If you aren't interested in the older post don't
> read
> further.
>
> Why be annoyed. I don't get why it annoyes??
> ned
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Thomas Campbell
> To: TeamGrumman-List Digest Server
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:12 AM
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: EI vs JPI
>
>
> <airman@appledumplings.com>
>
> #1 you guys really need to learn how to cut the uneeded part of the
> original message when you reply. It takes 10 seconds. I know at least
> one
> of you guys is stubborn because of old GG issues. But man I have
> tried
> to
> read this forum for some time and it is quite annoying. But on a day
> like
> today where many do it .. it is not just annoying it is unbearable
> and
> unreadable.
>
> With that said. I recently installed a JPI EDM 700 I previously had
> an
> alcor EGT only. I am seeing 450 on the back cylinders and
> 380-400 on the front sometimes in cruise if I lean
> aggresively.(I have not seen it get higher in climb) Even with
> keeping
> it
> a bit rich I run 430 on the back.
>
> My history. Atlanta,Ga AA5b 1976 10 years 450 SMOH. Good compressions
> all 74 or higher last 3 annuals with one exception of a 72. Had high
> oil
> temps(1-2 needle widths below redline in summer) and put new baffle
> seal
> and sealed some seams in the side baffles. I still
> wonder about the baffle sheets on the bottom. It doesnt fit well next
> to
> the case in the back bottom. Anyway we checked the gauge and
> vernatherm
> and I gave up and got a bigger cooler. Which helped, now 200-210.
> After all this I put in the JPI and get the above temps. I have not
> gone
> back and had someone check to see if the ground was installed
> correctly. I
> will do this soon. My current A&P also made a comment about the JPI.
> Saying he has had a few people install them and get so distraught
> that
> they seel theri airplanes or do overhaul early. He seems less
> concerned.
> And he has looked for any overheat indicators.
> I personly have been running it a bit rich because until I am assured
> it
> is instrumentation It just makes me nervous.
>
> Thomas
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 10:27:18 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> From: teamgrumman@aol.com
>
>
> Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two
> different styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard P-100, that he
> tested an
> d
> found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large
> differences in
>
> temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with
> the fixed
>
> probe.=C2- And all the accusations, or implications at least, are
> that the
>
> fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a
> real
> possibility that it could be due to something completely
> different.
>
>
> =C2-
>
>
> Cliff
>
>
> Finally, Cliff, you hit the nail on the head. =C2-I agree. =C2-There
> is
> a real possibility there is something going on that could account
> for the di
> fferences in temperatures. =C2-I doubt, seriously, that it is just
> the pro
> bes.
>
>
> And. =C2-It has nothing to do with a recent change in vendors. =C2-I
> fir
> st noticed this difference around 1995 when I installed my first JPI
> 700.
> =C2-
>
>
> And. =C2-It isn't just my plane. =C2-I installed a JPI 700 in one
> Comanc
> he and a JPI 800 in another Comanche in place of previously
> installed EI uni
> ts. =C2-Both owners came back saying their engines were running hot.
> =C2
> -One owner, the 700, bought another EI and had me put it in instead.
> =C2
> -The other owner was willing to accept the higher readings.
>
>
> Gil. =C2-Just how many grounds is enough? =C2-Are you concerned
> about gr
> ound loops? =C2-I've run the ground to a common avionics ground AND
> to the
> ground on the engine from the avionics ground. A
> 0No change. =C2-I've tried just the avionics ground. =C2-I've tried
> just
> the engine ground. =C2-No change. =C2-
>
>
> Like I wrote in the STAR, the temps start out the same before start-
> up. =C2
> -The JPI temps rise faster and to a higher reading than the EI temps.
>
>
> And. =C2-There is no way to know the actual test set up used by
> Lycoming.
> =C2-
>
>
> I have an old Gem in a box somewhere. =C2-It has no digital readout.
> =C2
> -Gil, if yours has no digital readout, with 25 degree per bar
> accuracy, ho
> w do you know what the temperature is? =C2-
>
>
> And. Speculation: =C2-I would expect that the makers of these
> analyzers to
> ok into consideration various millivolt differences. =C2-If they saw
> diffe
> rences of 3 degrees, I doubt they cared.
>
>
> And. =C2-If this had only happened to one installation, then I would
> look
> at the installation. =C2-It is a universal experience that the JPI
> reads h
> igher. =C2-
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 7:35 pm
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
>
> Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two
> different styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard P-100, that he
> tested an
> d
> found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large
> differences in
>
> temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with
> the fixed
>
> probe.=C2- And all the accusations, or implications at least, are
> that the
> =0
> Afixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is
> a real
>
> possibility that it could be due to something completely
> different.
>
>
> =C2-
>
>
> Cliff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
> From:
> Gil
> Alexander
>
>
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:13
> PM
>
>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs
> JPI
>
>
> Ned... I believe the GG post you refer to still references
> Gary's EI/JPI measurements....:^)
>
> He just says below that the EI
> non-bayonet probes read lower - which does not seem to be in
> dispute....:^)
>
> And do you really think Lycoming used a non-MIL-Spec
> probe, especially in the 60's, for certification?=C2- I vote for
> probes
> that
> touch the cylinder.
>
> gil A
>
> At 07:05 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
>
>
> I started this thread because of similar
> thread that was started on the GG. I understood one poster to say
> that h
> e
> too had experienced higher readings with JPI type probes that
> actually t
> ouch
> the thermowell. He had both in his Cheetah and found that the
> probes tha
> t
> touch the head actually give a higher reading.
> =C2-
> So in answer to Gil's post it appears that
> others have noted the diffenece in temp readings besides
> Gary.
> =C2-
> Someone at
> Lycoming needs to answer this question, at least the question of
> the typ
> e of
> probe they used. Right now we are just sp
> eculating on what type of probe
> they used.
> =C2-
> Ned
> =C2-
> Here is the post I refer
> to:
> =C2-
> =C2-
> -----
> Original Message -----
> From: John Horton
> Sent: Tuesday,
> March 24, 2009 9:19 PM
> Subject: RE: Tiger outlet ramps - More Info
> Req.
>
> Dave,
> I would direct you to look at
> http://www.bondline.org/wiki/Lower_Cowling_Split
> for
> info about reworking the exit ramps.=C2- That link will only
> provide
> info
> about
> the metal exit ramps but that's half the
> options.
>
> When you mention that your temps are "warm" be sure to
> review the GG archives
> about JPI instrumentation vs EI instrumentation.
> There are differences in
> probe
> design that make JPI read higher that
> EI in what should be the same cylinder.
> So if you have JP CHT and think
> your running "warm" you might be just fine if
> you had EI CHT.=C2-
> Theres a good bit of reading in the archives on that
> topic.
> My
> consensus after reviewing (and I might still have it wrong)
> is that JP CHT
> reads
> hotter than EI due to the fact that the JP CHT
> probe actually is spring
> loaded
> to touch the cyl head. The EI CHT
> probe screws into a space in the cyl head.
> I
> have had both in my plane
> (Cheetah) and can verify that fact. The probes are
> different and the JP
> touches the head and reads hotter.
>
> So if you have=C2- J
> P CHT gauge
> and it reads 420 in climb your most likely fine.
> (Assuming the temp goes
> down when you level out) The same plane may well read
> 385 with a EI CHT
> and it is fine also. Be sure to know your temp source (EI
> or
> JP) and
> read the archives to get a feel for the differences before you go
> and
> rework your exit ramps. They might be fine.
>
> I recently
> reworked my exit ramps on my Cheetah due to a "warmer" than
> I'd
> like
> #4 cyl, cracks in my metal exit ramps and a newly minted
> A&P ticket that
> allowed
> me to do it. I have only flown it once and
> the results looked promising.
> Tommorrow I hope to gather more flight
> data. I currently have a JP CHT/EGT
> and
> in climb prior to the ramp
> work could occasionally hit 450 (my and Lycomings
> redline).=C2- I could
> easily get into the 430's in climb and have to nose over
> and
> or
> throttle back to arrest the CHT rise.=C2- When I had the EI CHT
> gauge
> I
> never
> saw anything above 390.
>
> After reworking the ramps I do
> expect to go faster, climb higher and do it
> all
> with 1/3 flaps
> deployed for less gallons per hour. I just had to throw that
> in
> in
> case there aren't enough emotionally loaded topics to write
> about.
>
> John Horton
> HC Cheetah
> Sensenich Prop
>
>
> =C2------ Original Message -----
>
>
> =0
> AFrom: Gil Alexander
>
>
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 8:41 PM
>
>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
>
> Gary,
>
>
> How many STCs have you installed with poor/bad/wrong
> instructions?=C2- And the CHT/EGT monitor STCs are quite
> "generic" n
> ot
> really airframe specific.
>
>
> My latest one was my Plane Power voltage regulator.=C2- Works fine,
> but needed spacers to clear the "bumps" on the fire wall -
> hardly a
> drop-in exact replacement for the non flat bottom mechanical
> regulator
> -
> and no mention in the STC instructions.
>
>
> Your plane seems to be the only test case reporting the problem.=C2-
> I'm happy with the Insight GEM in mine with it's probes that
> touch the
>
> thermowell bottom like I believe the Lycoming test bayonet
> probes did
> during their certification.
>
>
> As an electronics engineer, I know I would not design sensitive
> millivolts equipment using grounded sensors.... but that's just
> me....
> and
> my stuff is (or has been) working in military aircraft and space
> vehicles....:^)
>
>
> gil A
>
>
> PS ...I like the GEM unit, but I have the "bars only" version - I
> would prefer the version with numbe
> rs - a probable future upgrade.
>
>
> PPS=C2- Sorry about the formatting of the mV chart in my previous
> e-mail
>
>
> Here is an alternate link to another table of National Institute of
> Standards and Technology output voltages from a Type J
> thermocouple
> -
>
>
> http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf
>
>
> This shows how small the DC voltages are that we are
> measuring.
>
>
> At 05:40 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
>
>
> There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we
> are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would
> personally vote
> for
> grounding issues.=C3=82
>
>
> MY PLANE? =C3=82 Ok, maybe your right. =C3=82 The grounds in installed
> according to the STC were done wrong. =C3=82 Maybe the probes
> ground
> ing
> against brand new cylinders had corrosion built up in them.
> =C3=82
> =C2-
>
>
> Maybe planes experiencing CHT readings higher on a JPI than on an EI
> also followed the installation instructions.
>
>
> How about you doing your own testing and report your own
> results?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
>
> =2
> 0
>
>
> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:03 pm
>
>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
>
> This is only true if, and it's a big IF, the temperatures
> displayed on todays instrumentation "WOULD" have displayed
> the sam
> e
> temperatures as those recorded by Lycoming technicians=C3=83
> =9A on the
> instrumentation used by Lycoming. =C3=83=9A=C3=82=C2-
>
>
> Gary... I don't belief that is a big "IF"...
>
>
> The electrical characteristics of a type J thermocouple have been
> well known from long before WWII.
>
>
> The electrical instrumentation bit has not changed over the years as
> far as the basic thermocouple, especially when used in an
> engine tes
> t
> cell.=C3=82=C2- I bet Lycoming had individual CHT meters
> directly
> connected
> to the probes, none of this fancy digital switching, scanning
> stuff....:^)
>
>
> Today the probes and the interconnect may be different, but the a
> type J thermocouple has always created the same amount of
> voltage du
> e to
> physics.
>
>
> There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we
> are dealing with fractions of mil
> liVolts, I would personally vote for
> grounding issues.=C3=82=C2- You can see from the table below
> that
> 10
> degrees Centigrade is about a 1/2 milliVolt change.=C3=82=C2-
> Try
> a direct
> wire from GND on your EI gauge to the engine.
>
>
> This is from Sandia labs...=C3=82=C2- gil A
>
>
> =C3=82 ITS-90 Table for type J=C3=82=C2- thermocouple
>
>
> =C3=82 =C3=82=C2=B0C=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82
> =C3=82
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>
>
> 1=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 2=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> =C3
> =82
>
>
> 3=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 4=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> =C3
> =82
>
>
> 5=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 6=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> =C3
> =82
>
>
> 7=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 8=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> =C3
> =82
>
>
> 9=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 10
>
>
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> =C3=82 =C3
> =82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> =C3=82
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>
>
> Thermoelectric Voltage in mV
>
>
> =C3=82
>
>
> =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82=C2- 0.000=C3=82=C2- 0.050=C3=82=C2- 0.101
> =C3=82=C2- 0.151=C3=82
>
>
> 0.202=C3=82=C2- 0.253=C3=82=C2- 0.303=C3=82=C2- 0.354=C3=82=C2- 0.40
> 5=C3=82=C2-
> 0.456=C3=82
>
>
> 0.507
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 10=C3=82=C2- 0.507=C3=82=C2- 0.558=C3=82=C2- 0.609=C3=82
> =C2- 0.660=C3=82
>
>
> 0.711=C3=82=C2- 0.762=C3=82=C2- 0.814=C3=82=C2- 0.8652=C2- 0.916=C3
> =82=C2-
> 0.968=C3=82
>
>
> 1.019
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 20=C3=82=C2- 1.019=C3=82=C2- 1.071
>
>
> =C2-1.122=C3=82=C2- 1.174=C3=82
>
>
> 1.226=C3=82=C2- 1.277=C3=82=C2- 1.329=C3=82=C2- 1.381=C3=82=C2- 1.43
> 3=C3=82=C2-
> 1.485=C3=82
>
>
> 1.537
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 30=C3=82=C2- 1.537=C3=82=C2- 1.589=C3=82=C2- 1.641=C3=82
> =C2- 1.693=C3=82
>
>
> 1.745=C3=82=C2- 1.797=C3=82=C2- 1.849=C3=82=C2- 1.902=C3=82=C2- 1.95
> 4=C3=82=C2-
> 2.006=C3=82
>
>
> 2.059
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 40=C3=82=C2- 2.059=C3=82=C2- 2.111=C3=82=C2- 2.164=C3=82
> =C2- 2.216=C3=82
>
>
> 2.269=C3=82=C2- 2.322=C3=82=C2- 2.374=C3=82=C2- 2.427=C3=82=C2- 2.48
> 0=C3=82=C2-
> 2.532=C3=82
>
>
> 2.585
>
>
> =C3=82=C2-
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 50=C3=82=C2- 2.585=C3=82=C2- 2.638=C3=82=C2- 2.691=C3=82
> =C2- 2.744=C3=82
>
>
> 2.797=C3=82=C2- 2.850=C3=82=C2- 2.903=C3=82=C2- 2.956=C3=82=C2- 3.00
> 9=C3=82=C2-
> 3.062=C3=82
>
>
> 3.116
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 60=C3=82=C2- 3.116=C3=82=C2- 3.169=C3=82=C2- 3.222=C3=82
> =C2- 3.275=C3=82
>
>
> 3.329=C3=82=C2- 3.382=C3=82=C2- 3.436=C3=82=C2- 3.489=C3=82=C2- 3.54
> 3=C3=82=C2-
> 3.596=C3=82
>
>
> 3.650
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 70=C3=82=C2- 3.650=C3=82=C2- 3.703=C3=82=C2- 3.757=C3=82
> =C2- 3.810=C3=82
>
>
> 3.864=C3=82=C2- 3.918=C3=82=C2- 3.971=C3=82=C2- 4.025=C3=82=C2- 4.07
> 9=C3=82=C2-
> 4.133=C3=82
>
>
> 4.187
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 80=C3=82=C2- 4.187=C3=82=C2- 4.240=C3=82=C2- 4.294=C3=82
> =C2- 4.348=C3=82
>
>
> 4.402=C3=82=C2- 4.456=C3=82=C2- 4.510=C3=82=C2- 4.564=C3=82=C2- 4.61
> 8=C3=82=C2-
> 4.672=C3=82
>
>
> 4.726
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 90=C3=82=C2- 4.726=C3=82=C2- 4.781=C3=82=C2- 4.835=C3=82
> =C2- 4.8
> 89=C3=82
>
>
> 4.943=C3=82=C2- 4.997=C3=82=C2- 5.052=C3=82=C2- 5.106=C3=82=C2- 5.16
> 0=C3=82=C2-
> 5.215=C3=82
>
>
> 5.269
>
>
> =C3=82=C2-
>
>
> =C3=82 100=C3=82=C2- 5.269=C3=82=C2- 5.323=C3=82=C2- 5.378=C3=82=C2
> - 5.432=C3=82
>
>
> 5.487=C3=82=C2- 5.541=C3=82=C2- 5.595=C3=82=C2- 5.650=C3=82=C2- 5.70
> 5=C3=82=C2-
> 5.759=C3=82
>
>
> 5.814
>
>
> =C3=82 110=C3=82=C2- 5.814=C3=82=C2- 5.868=C3=82=C2- 5.923=C3=82=C2
> - 5.977=C3=82
>
>
> 6.032=C3=82=C2- 6.087=C3=82=C2- 6.141=C3=82=C2- 6.196=C3=82=C2- 6.25
> 1=C3=82=C2-
> 6.306=C3=82
>
>
> 6.360
>
>
> =C3=82 120=C3=82=C2- 6.360=C3=82=C2- 6.415=C3=82=C2- 6.470=C3=82=C2
> - 6.525=C3=82
>
>
> 6.579=C3=82=C2- 6.634=C3=82=C2- 6.689=C3=82=C2- 6.744=C3=82=C2- 6.79
> 9=C3=82=C2-
> 6.854=C3=82
>
>
> 6.909
>
>
> =C3=82 130=C3=82=C2- 6.909=C3=82=C2- 6.964=C3=82=C2- 7.019=C3=82=C2
> - 7.074=C3=82
>
>
> 7.129=C3=82=C2- 7.184=C3=82=C2- 7.239=C3=82=C2- 7.294=C3=82=C2- 7.34
> 9=C3=82=C2-
> 7.404=C3=82
>
>
> 7.459
>
>
> =C3=82 140=C3=82=C2- 7.4590 7.514=C3=82=C2- 7.569=C3=82=C2- 7.624=C3
> =82
>
>
> 7.679=C3=82=C2- 7.734=C3=82=C2- 7.789=C3=82=C2- 7.844=C3=82=C2- 7.90
> 0=C3=82=C2-
> 7.955=C3=82
>
>
> 8.010
>
>
> =C3=82=C2-
>
>
> =C3=82 150=C3=82=C2- 8.010=C3=82=C2- 8.065=C3=82=C2- 8.120=C3=82=C2
> - 8.175=C3=82
>
>
> 8.231=C3=82=C2- 8.286=C3=82=C2- 8.341=C3=82=C2- 8.396=C3=82=C2- 8.45
> 2=C3=82=C2-
> 8.507=C3=82
>
>
> 8.562
>
>
> =C3=82 160=C3=82=C2- 8.562=C3=82=C2- 8.618=C3=82=C2- 8.673=C3=82=C2
> - 8.728=C3=82
>
>
> 8.783=C3=82=C2- 8.839=C3=82=C2- 8.894=C3=82=C2- 8.949=C3=82=C2- 9.00
> 5=C3=82=C2-
> 9.060=C3=82
>
>
> 9.115
>
>
> =C3=82 170=C3=82=C2- 9
> ..115=C3=82=C2- 9.171=C3=82=C2- 9.226=C3=82=C2- 9.282=C3=82
>
>
> 9.337=C3=82=C2- 9.392=C3=82=C2- 9.448=C3=82=C2- 9.503=C3=82=C2- 9.55
> 9=C3=82=C2-
> 9.614=C3=82
>
>
> 9.669
>
>
> =C3=82 180=C3=82=C2- 9.669=C3=82=C2- 9.725=C3=82=C2- 9.780=C3=82=C2
> - 9.836=C3=82
>
>
> 9.891=C3=82=C2- 9.947 10.002 10.057 10.113 10.168 10.224
>
>
> =C3=82 190 10.224 10.279 10.335 10.390 10.446 10.501 10.557 10.612
> 10.668
>
>
> 10.723 10.779
>
>
> =C3=82=C2-
>
>
> =C3=82 200 10.779 10.834 10.890 10.945 11.001 11.056 11.112 11.167
> 11.223
>
>
> 11.278 11.334
>
>
> =C3=82 210 11.334 11.389 11.445 11.501 11.556 11.612 11.667 11.723
> 11.778
>
>
> 11.834 11.889
>
>
> =C3=82 220 11.889 11.945 12.000 12.056 12.111 12.167 12.222 12.278
> 12.334
>
>
> 12.389 12.445
>
>
> =C3=82 230 12.445 12.500 12.556 12.611 12.667 12.722 12.778 12.833
> 12.889
>
>
> 12.944 13.000
>
>
> =C3=82 240 13.000 13.056 13.111 13.167 13.222 13.278 13.333 13.389
> 13.444
>
>
> 13.500 13.555
>
>
> =C3=82=C2-
>
>
> =C3=82 250 13.555 13.611 13.666 13.722 13.777 13.833 13.888 13.944
> 13.999
>
>
> 14.055 14.110
>
>
> =C3=82 260 14.110 14.166 14.221 14.277 14.332 14.388 14.443 14.499
> 14.554
>
>
> 14.609 14.665
>
>
> =C3=82 270 14.665 14.720 14.776 14.831 14.887 14.942 14.998 15.053
> 15.109
>
>
> 15.164 15.219
>
>
> =C3=82 280 15.219 15.275 15.330 15.386 15.441 15.496 15.552 15.607
> 15.663
>
>
> 15.718 15.773
>
>
> =C3=82 290 15.773 15.829 15.884 15.940 15.995 16.050 16.106 16.161 16.
>
>
> 216
>
>
> 16.272 16.327
>
>
> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/
> Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>
>
> p://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.
> ?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx
> %3Fs
> c%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62">
> See yours in just 2 easy steps!
>
>
> href="
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>
>
> href="
> http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> href="
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
> ========
>
>
> 3/28/2009 7:16 AM
>
>
> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
>
>
> 0 - List Contribution Web Site -
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 6
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 10:46:44 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> From: teamgrumman@aol.com
>
> Just to add to the mix. =C2-
>
>
> On the flight tests, we also measured Oil Temp and OAT with the EI.
> =C2-Oi
> l temp was measured at the oil filter adaptor and OAT was a probe
> stuck out
> the canopy at the top. =C2-
>
>
> Oil temp on the EI was within 5 degrees of the oil temp measured by
> the JPI
> in the front right galley plug.
>
>
> Oat on the JPI was slightly colder, 1 to 4 degrees, with the JPI
> probed loca
> ted under the left wing at the most forward inspection cover.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: teamgrumman@aol.com
> Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:23 am
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
>
> Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two
> different styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard P-100, that he
> tested an
> d
> found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large
> differences in
>
> temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with
> the fixed
>
> probe.=C2- And all the accusations, or implications at least, are
> that the
>
> fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a
> real
> possibility that it could be due to something completely
> different.
>
>
> =C2-
>
>
> Cliff
>
>
> Finally, Cliff, you hit the nail on the head. =C2-I agree. =C2-There
> is
> a real possibility there is something going on that could account
> for the di
> fferences in temperatures. =C2-I doubt, seriously, that it is just
> the pro
> bes.
>
>
> And. =C2-It has nothing to do with
> a recent change in vendors. =C2-I first noticed this difference
> around 19
> 95 when I installed my first JPI 700. =C2-
>
>
> And. =C2-It isn't just my plane. =C2-I installed a JPI 700 in one
> Comanc
> he and a JPI 800 in another Comanche in place of previously
> installed EI uni
> ts. =C2-Both owners came back saying their engines were running hot.
> =C2
> -One owner, the 700, bought another EI and had me put it in instead.
> =C2
> -The other owner was willing to accept th
> e higher readings.
>
>
> Gil. =C2-Just how many grounds is enough? =C2-Are you concerned
> about gr
> ound loops? =C2-I've run the ground to a common avionics ground AND
> to the
> ground on the engine from the avionics ground. =C2-No change. =C2-I've
> tried just the avionics ground. =C2-I've tried just the engine ground.
> =C2-No change. =C2-
>
>
> Like I wrote in the STAR, the temps start out the same before start-
> up. =C2
> -The JPI temps rise faster and to a higher reading than the EI temps.
>
>
> And. =C2-There is no way to know the actual test set up used by
> Lycoming.
> =C2-
>
>
> I have an old Gem in a box somewhere. =C2-It has no digital readout.
> =C2
> -Gil, if yours has no digital readout, with 25 degree per bar
> accuracy, ho
> w do you know what the temperature is? =C2-
>
>
> And. Speculation: =C2-I would expect that the makers of these
> analyzers to
> ok into consideration various millivolt differences. =C2-If they saw
> diffe
> rences of 3 degrees, I
> doubt they cared.
>
>
> And. =C2-If this had only happened to one installation, then I would
> look
> at the installation. =C2-It is a universal experience that the JPI
> reads h
> igher. =C2-
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
>
>
> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 7:35 pm
>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
>
> Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two
> different styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard P-100, that he
> tested an
> d
> found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large
> differences in
>
> temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with
> the fixed
>
> probe.=C2- And all the accusations, or implications at least, are
> that the
>
> fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a
> real
> possibility that it could be due to something completely
> different.
>
>
> =C2-
>
>
> Cliff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
> From:
> Gil
> Alexander
>
>
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:13
> PM
>
>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs
> JPI
>
>
> Ned... I believe the GG post you refer to still references
>
> Gary's EI/JPI measurements....:^)
>
>
> He just says below that the EI
> non-bayonet probes read lower - which does not seem to be in
> dispute....:^)
>
>
> And do yo
> u really think Lycoming used a non-MIL-Spec
> probe, especially in the 60's, for certification?=C2- I vote for
> probes
> that
> touch the cylinder.
>
>
> gil A
>
>
> At 07:05 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
>
>
> I started this thread because of similar
> thread that was started on the GG. I understood one poster to say
> that h
> e
> too had experienced higher readings with JPI type probes that
> actually t
> ouch
> the thermowell. He had both in his Cheetah and found that the
> probes tha
> t
> touch the head actually give a higher reading.
>
> =C2-
>
> So in answer to Gil's post it appears that
> others have noted the diffenece in temp readings besides
> Gary.
>
> =C2-
>
> Someone at
> Lycoming needs to answer this question, at least the question of
> the typ
> e of
> probe they used. Right now we are just speculating on what type
> of probe
>
> they used.
>
> =C2-
>
> Ned
>
> =C2-
>
> Here is the post I refer
> to:
>
> =C2-
>
> =C2-
>
> -----
> Original Message -----
> From: John Horton
>
>
> Sent: Tuesday,
> March 24, 2009 9:19 PM
>
> Subject: RE: Tiger outlet ramps - More Info
> Req.
>
>
> Dave,
>
> I would direct you to look at
>
> http://www.bondline.org/wiki/Lower_Cowling_Split
>
> for
> info about reworking the exit ramps.=C2- That link will only
> provide
> info
>
> about
>
> the metal exit ramps but that's half the
> options.
>
>
> When you mention
> that your temps are "warm" be sure to
> review the GG archives
>
> about JPI instrumentation vs EI instrumentation.
> There are differences in
>
> probe
>
> design that make JPI read higher that
> EI in what should be the same cylinder.
>
> So if you have JP CHT and think
> your running "warm" you might be just fine if
>
> you had EI CHT.=C2-
> Theres a good bit of reading in the archives on that
> topic.
>
> My
>
> consensus after reviewing (and I might still have it wrong)
> is that JP CHT
>
> reads
>
> hotter than EI due to the fact that the JP CHT
> probe actually is spring
>
> loaded
>
> to touch the cyl head. The EI CHT
> probe screws into a space in the cyl head.
>
> I
>
> have had both in my plane
> (Cheetah) and can verify that fact. The pro
> bes are
>
> different and the JP
> touches the head and reads hotter.
>
>
> So if you have=C2- JP CHT gauge
> and it reads 420 in climb your most likely fine.
>
> (Assuming the temp goes
> down when you level out) The same plane may well read
>
> 385 with a EI CHT
> and it is fine also. Be sure to know your temp source (EI
>
> or
>
> JP) and
> read the archives to get a feel for the differences before you go
> and
>
> rework your exit ramps. They might be fine.
>
>
> I recently
> reworked my exit ramps on my Cheetah due to a "warmer" than
> I'd
>
> like
>
> #4 cyl, cracks=2
> 0in my metal exit ramps and a newly minted
> A&P ticket that
>
> allowed
>
> me to do it. I have only flown it once and
> the results looked promising.
>
> Tommorrow I hope to gather more flight
> data. I currently have a JP CHT/EGT
>
> and
>
> in climb prior to the ramp
> work could occasionally hit 450 (my and Lycomings
>
> redline).=C2- I could
> easily get into the 430's in climb and have to nose over
>
> and
>
> or
> throttle back to arrest the CHT rise.=C2- When I had the EI CHT
> gauge
> I
> never
>
> saw anything above 390.
>
>
> After reworking the ramps I do
> expect to go faster, climb higher and do it
>
> all
>
> with 1/3 flaps
> deployed for less gallons per hour. I just had to throw that
>
> in
>
> in
> case there aren't
> enough emotionally loaded topics to write
> about.
>
>
> John Horton
>
> HC Cheetah
>
> Sensenich Prop
>
>
> =C2------ Original Message -----
>
>
> From: Gil Alexander
>
>
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 8:41 PM
>
>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
>
> Gary,
>
>
> How many STCs have you installed with poor/bad/wrong
> instructions?=C2- And the CHT/EGT monitor STCs are quite
> "generic" n
> ot
> really airframe specific.
>
>
> My lat
> est one was my Plane Power voltage regulator.=C2- Works fine,
> but needed spacers to clear the "bumps" on the fire wall -
> hardly a
> drop-in exact replacement for the non flat bottom mechanical
> regulator
> -
> and no mention in the STC instructions.
>
>
> Your plane seems to be the only test case reporting the problem.=C2-
> I'm happy with the Insight GEM in mine with it's probes that
> touch the
>
> thermowell bottom like I believe the Lycoming test bayonet
> probes did
> during their certification.
>
>
> As an electronics engineer, I know I would not design sensitive
> millivolts
> equipment using grounded sensors.... but that's just me.... and
> my stuff is (or has been) working in military aircraft and space
> vehicles....:^)
>
>
> gil A
>
>
> PS ...I like the GEM unit, but I have the "bars only" version - I
> would prefer the version with numbers - a probable future
> upgrade.
>
>
> PPS=C2- Sorry about the formatting of the mV chart in my previous
> e-mail
>
>
> Here is an alternate link to another table of National Institute of
> Standards and Technology output voltages from a Type J
> thermocouple
> -
>
>
> http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf
>
>
> This shows h
> ow small the DC voltages are that we are
> measuring.
>
>
> At 05:40 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
>
>
> There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we
> are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would
> personally vote
> for
> grounding issues.=C3=82
>
>
> MY PLANE? =C3=82 Ok, maybe your right. =C3=82 The grounds in installed
> according to the STC were done wrong. =C3=82 Maybe the probes
> ground
> ing
> 20 against brand new cylinders had corrosion built up in them.
> =C3=82
> =C2-
>
>
> Maybe planes experiencing CHT readings higher on a JPI than on an EI
> also followed the installation instructions.
>
>
> How about you doing your own testing and report your own
> results?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
>
>
> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:03 pm
>
>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
>
> This is only true if, and it's a big IF, the temperatures
> displayed on todays instrumentation "WOULD" have displayed
> the sam
> e
> =2
> 0 temperatures as those recorded by Lycoming technicians=C3=83=9A on
> the
> instrumentation used by Lycoming. =C3=83=9A=C3=82=C2-
>
>
> Gary... I don't belief that is a big "IF"...
>
>
> The electrical characteristics of a type J thermocouple have been
> well known from long before WWII.
>
>
> The electrical instrument
> ation bit has not changed over the years as
> far as the basic thermocouple, especially when used in an
> engine tes
> t
> cell.=C3=82=C2- I bet Lycoming had individual CHT meters
> directly
> connected
> to the probes, none of this fancy digital switching, scanning
> stuff....:^)
>
>
> Today the probes and the interconnect may be different, but the a
> type J thermocouple has always created the same amount of
> voltage du
> e to
> physics.
>
>
> There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we
> are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would personally
> vote fo
> r
> grounding issues.=C3=82=C2- You can see from the table below
> that
> 10
> degrees Centigrade is about a 1/2 milliVolt change.=C3=82=C2-
> Try
> a direct
> wire from GND on your EI gauge to the engine.
>
>
> This is from Sandia labs...=C3=82=C2- gil A
>
> =0
> A
>
>
> =C3=82 ITS-90 Table for type J=C3=82=C2- thermocouple
>
>
> =C3=82 =C3=82=C2=B0C=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82
> =C3=82
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>
>
> 1=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 2=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> =C3
> =82
>
>
> 3=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 4=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> =C3
> =82
>
>
> 5=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 6=C3=82 =C3=82=2
> 0=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>
>
> 7=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 8=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> =C3
> =82
>
>
> 9=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 10
>
>
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> =C3=82 =C3
> =82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> =C3=82
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>
>
> Thermoelectric Voltage in mV
>
>
> =C3=82
>
>
> =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82=C2- 0.000=C3=82=C2- 0.050=C3=82=C2- 0.101
> =C3=82=C2- 0.151=C3=82
>
>
> 0.202=C3=82=C2- 0.253=C3=82=C2- 0.303=C3=82=C2- 0.354=C3=82=C2- 0.40
> 5=C3=82=C2-
> 0.456=C3=82
>
>
> 0.507
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 10=C3=82=C2- 0.507=C3=82=C2- 0.558=C3=82=C2- 0.609=C3=82
> =C2- 0.660=C3=82
>
>
> 0.711=C3=82=C2- 0.762=C3=82=C2- 0.814=C3=82=C2- 0.865=C3=82=C2- 0.91
> 6=C3=82=C2-
> 0.968=C3=82
>
>
> 1.019
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 20=C3=82=C2- 1.019=C3=82=C2- 1.071
>
>
> =C2-1.122=C3=82=C2- 1.174=C3=82
>
>
> 1.226=C3=82=C2- 1.277=C3=82=C2- 1.329=C3=82=C2- 1.381=C3=82=C2- 1.43
> 3=C3=82=C2-
> 1.485=C3=82
>
>
> 1.537
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 30=C3=82=C2- 1.537=C3=82=C2- 1.589=C3=82=C2- 1.641=C3=82
> =C2- 1.693=C3=82
>
>
> 1.745=C
> 3=C2- 1.797=C3=82=C2- 1.849=C3=82=C2- 1.902=C3=82=C2- 1.954=C3=82
> =C2-
> 2.006=C3=82
>
>
> 2.059
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 40=C3=82=C2- 2.059=C3=82=C2- 2.111=C3=82=C2- 2.164=C3=82
> =C2- 2.216=C3=82
>
>
> 2.269=C3=82=C2- 2.322=C3=82=C2- 2.374=C3=82=C2- 2.427=C3=82=C2- 2.48
> 0=C3=82=C2-
> 2.532=C3=82
>
>
> 2.585
>
>
> =C3=82=C2-
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 50=C3=82=C2- 2.585=C3=82=C2- 2.6382=C2- 2.691=C3=82=C2
> - 2.744=C3=82
>
>
> 2.797=C3=82=C2- 2.850=C3=82=C2- 2.903=C3=82=C2- 2.956=C3=82=C2- 3.00
> 9=C3=82=C2-
> 3.062=C3=82
>
>
> 3.116
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 60=C3=82=C2- 3.116=C3=82=C2- 3.169=C3=82=C2- 3.222=C3=82
> =C2- 3.275=C3=82
>
>
> 3.329=C3=82=C2- 3.382=C3=82=C2- 3.436=C3=82=C2- 3.489=C3=82=C2- 3.54
> 3=C3=82=C2-
> 3.596=C3=82
>
>
> 3.650
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 70=C3=82=C2- 3.650=C3=82=C2- 3.703=C3=82=C2- 3.757=C3=82
> =C2- 3.810=C3=82
>
>
> 3.864=C3=82=C2- 3.918=C3=82=C2- 3.971=C3=82=C2- 4.025=C3=82=C2- 4.07
> 9=C3=82=C2-
> 4.133=C3=82
>
>
> 4.187
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 80=C3=82=C2- 4.187=C3=82=C2- 4.240=C3=82=C2- 4.294=C3=82
> =C2- 4.348=C3=82
>
>
> 4.402=C3=82=C2- 4.456=C3=82=C2- 4.510=C3=82=C2- 4.564=C3=82=C2- 4.61
> 8=C3=82=C2-
> 4.672=C3=82
>
>
> 4.726
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 90=C3=82=C2- 4.726=C3=82=C2- 4.781=C3=82=C2- 4.835=C3=82
> =C2- 4.889=C3=82
>
>
> 4.943=C3=82=C2- 4.997=C3=82=C2- 5.052=C3=82=C2- 5.106=C3=82=C2- 5.16
> 0=C3=82=C2-
> 5.215=C3=82
>
>
> 5.269
>
>
> =C3=82=C2-
>
>
> =C3=82 100=C3=82=C2- 5.269=C3=82=C2- 5.323=C3=82=C2- 5.378=C3=82=C2
> - 5.432=C3=82
>
>
> 5.487=C3=82=C2- 5.541=C3=82=C2- 5.595=C3=82=C2- 5.650=C3=82=C2- 5.70
> 5=C3=82=C2-
> 5.759=C3=82
>
>
> 5.814
>
>
> =C3=82 110=C3=820 5.814=C3=82=C2- 5.868=C3=82=C2- 5.923=C3=82=C2- 5.97
> 7=C3=82
>
>
> 6.032=C3=82=C2- 6.087=C3=82=C2- 6.141=C3=82=C2- 6.196=C3=82=C2- 6.25
> 1=C3=82=C2-
> 6.306=C3=82
>
>
> 6.360
>
>
> =C3=82 120=C3=82=C2- 6.360=C3=82=C2- 6.415=C3=82=C2- 6.470=C3=82=C2
> - 6.525=C3=82
>
>
> 6.579=C3=82=C2- 6.634=C3=82=C2- 6.689=C3=82=C2- 6.744=C
> 3=C2- 6.799=C3=82=C2-
> 6.854=C3=82
>
>
> 6.909
>
>
> =C3=82 130=C3=82=C2- 6.909=C3=82=C2- 6.964=C3=82=C2- 7.019=C3=82=C2
> - 7.074=C3=82
>
>
> 7.129=C3=82=C2- 7.184=C3=82=C2- 7.239=C3=82=C2- 7.294=C3=82=C2- 7.34
> 9=C3=82=C2-
> 7.404=C3=82
>
>
> 7.459
>
>
> =C3=82 140=C3=82=C2- 7.4590 7.514=C3=82=C2- 7.569=C3=82=C2- 7.624=C3
> =82
>
>
> 7.679=C3=82=C2- 7.734=C3=82=C2- 7.789=C3=82=C2- 7.844=C3=82=C2- 7.90
> 0=C3=82=C2-
> 7.955=C3=82
>
>
> 8.010
>
>
> =C3=82=C2-
>
>
> =C3=82 150=C3=82=C2- 8.010=C3=82=C2- 8.065=C3=82=C2- 8.120=C3=82=C2
> - 8.175=C3=82
>
>
> 8.231=C3=82=C2- 8.286=C3=82=C2- 8.341=C3=82=C2- 8.396=C3=82=C2- 8.45
> 2=C3=82=C2-
> 8.507=C3=82
>
>
> 8.562
>
>
> =C3=82 160=C3=82=C2- 8.562=C3=82=C2- 8.618=C3=82=C2- 8.673=C3=82=C2
> - 8.728=C3=82
>
>
> 8.783=C3=82=C2- 8.839=C3=82=C2- 8.894=C3=82=C2- 8.949=C3=82=C2- 9.00
> 5=C3=82=C2-
> 9.060=C3=82
>
>
> 9.115
>
>
> =C3=82 170=C3=82=C2- 9.115=C3=82=C2- 9.171=C3=82=C2- 9.226=C3=82=C2
> - 9.282=C3=82
>
>
> 9.337=C3=82=C2- 9.392=C3=82=C2- 9.448=C3=82=C2- 9.503=C3=82=C2- 9.55
> 9=C3=82=C2-
> 9.614=C3=82
>
>
> 9.669
>
>
> =C3=82 180=C3=82=C2- 9.669=C3=82=C2- 9.725=C3=82=C2- 9.780=C3=82=C2
> - 9.836=C3=82
>
>
> 9.891=C3=82=C2- 9.947 10.002 10.057 10.113 10.168 10.224
>
>
> =C3=82 190 10.224 10.279 10.335 1
> 0.390 10.446 10.501 10.557 10.612 10.668
>
>
> 10.723 10.779
>
>
> =C3=82=C2-
>
>
> =C3=82 200 10.779 10.834 10.890 10.945 11.001 11.056 11.112 11.167
> 11.223
>
>
> 11.278 11.334
>
>
> =C3=82 210 11.334 11.389 11.445 11.501 11.556 11.612 11.667 11.723
> 11.778
>
>
> 11.834 11.889
>
>
> =C3=82 220 11.889 11.945 12.000 12.056 12.111 12.167 12.222 12.278
> 12.334
>
>
> 12.389 12.445
>
>
> =C3=82 230 12.445 12.500 12.556 12.611 12.667 12.722 12.778 12.833
> 12.889
>
>
> 12.944 13.000
>
>
> =C3=82 240 13.000 13.056 13.111 13.167 13.222 13.278 13.333 13.389
> 13.444
>
>
> 13.500 13.555
>
>
> =C3=82=C2-
>
>
> =C3=82 250 13.555 13.611 13.666 13.722 13.777 13.833 13.888 13.944
> 13.999
>
>
> 14.055 14.110
>
>
> =C3=82 260 14.110 14.166 14.221 14.277 14.332 14.388 14.443 14.499
> 14.554
>
>
> 14.609 14.665
>
>
> =C3=82 270 14.665 14.720 14.776 14.831 14.887 14.942 14.998 15.053
> 15.109
>
>
> 15.164 15.219
>
>
> =C3=82 280 15.219 15.275 15.330 15.386 15.441 15.496 15.552 15.607
> 15.663
>
>
> 15.718 15.773
>
>
> =C3=82 290 15.773 15.829 15.884 15.940 15.995 16.050 16.106 16.161 16.
>
>
> 216
>
>
> 16.272 16.327
>
>
> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>
>
> p://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.
> ?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx
> %3Fs
> c%3D668072%26hmp
> gID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62">
> See yours in just 2
> easy steps!
>
>
> href="
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>
>
> href="
> http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> href="
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> ===============3
> D===================
> p://forums.matronics.com
> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> 3/28/2009 7:16 AM
>
>
> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
>
>
> ch as List Un/Subscription,
> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> p://forums.matronics.com
> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
>
>
> =====
> ==
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 7
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:32:14 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> From: teamgrumman@AOL.COM
>
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/excerpt.pdf
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> It sounds to me like this describes the basic=C2-EI=C2-circuit. =C2-I
> know you can't change the length of the leads (on the unit I used).
> =C2-Th
> e reference temperature is the back of the unit? =C2-Not sure if I
> would r
> ely on that.
>
>
> Except for a few cautions, the unpowered thermocouple gage
>
>
> is quite attractive. It can be accurate and requires no wiring to
>
>
> ship's DC power. Such an instrument is illustrated in View
>
>
> -C-. Obviously, the reference-junction for this instrument
>
>
> exists right where the thermocouple wires bolt to the back of
>
>
> the instrument. Reference-junction compensation doesn't have
>
>
> to look like a 0oC ice bath. The reference-junction compensator
>
>
> just needs to know what the temperature is at the studs on the
>
>
> back of the instrument case; no problem since the
>
>
> compensation circuitry is right inside the case!
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> This sounds more like a=C2-JPI=C2-unit.
>
>
> While on the topic of high impedance instruments for
>
>
> thermocouples, I'll call your attention to Figure 14-12.
>
>
> In View -A- the hot-junction and reference-junction
>
>
> setup is similar to Figure 14-10, View -A- except: an
>
>
> electronic amplifier inserted between thermocouple
>
>
> wires and indicator. Some interesting things happen
>
>
> when you add an amplifier. (1) the indicator becomes a
>
>
> simple, much less expensive, voltmeter and (2) the
>
>
> current flo
> wing in the thermocouple wires is for all
>
>
> practical purposes, zero. Length of thermocouple wire
>
>
> is no longer critical; insertion of a selector switch to
>
>
> manage many thermocouples is feasible. The last
>
>
> inconvenience to eliminate is the requirement for an ice
>
>
> bath . . . .
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> This sounds like what was done on the=C2-AG5B. =C2-No wonder their
> temp
> gauges are so=C2-bazaar.=C2-
>
> I try to avoid
>
>
> bringing a thermocouple through any kind of connector
>
>
> along with other wires. There's a lot of temptation on the
>
>
> part of builders to bring all wires penetrating a firewall
>
>
> through on some kind of connector. For cost, weight
>
>
> and time savings, I recommend fabricating firewall
>
>
> penetrations from ordinary grommets with sheet metal
>
>
> fire shields.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Figure 14-3: =C2-A: =C2-JPI installation. =C2- =C2-B: EI Installatio
> n
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------
>
>
> http://www.status.co.uk/data/handbook_sections_1_to_4.pdf
>
>
> Thermocouples with grounded junctions display response times some 20
> to 30%
>
>
> faster than those with insulated junctions. Very good sensitivity is
> provide
> d by fine
>
>
> gauge unsheathed thermocouples. With conductor diameter in the range
> 0.025mm
>
>
> to 0.81mm, response times in the region of 0.05 to 0.40 seconds can
> be reali
> sed.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: teamgrumman@aol.com
> Sent: Mon, 30 Mar
> 2009 10:43 am
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
>
> Just to add to the mix. =C2-
>
>
> On the flight tests, we also measured Oil Temp and OAT with the EI.
> =C2-Oi
> l temp was measured at the oil filter adaptor and OAT was a probe
> stuck out
> the canopy at the top. =C2-
>
>
> Oil temp on the EI was within 5 degrees of the oil temp measured by
> the JPI
> in the front right galley plug.
>
>
> Oat on the JPI was slightly colder, 1 to 4 degrees, with the JPI
> probed loca
> ted under the left wing at the most forward inspection cover.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: teamgrumman@aol.com
>
>
> Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:23 am
>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
>
> Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two
> different styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard P-100, that he
> tested an
> d
> found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large
> differences in
>
> temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with
> the fixed
>
> probe.=C2- And all the accusations, or implications at least, are
> that the
>
> fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a
> real
> possibility that it could be due to something completely
> different.
>
>
> =C2-
>
>
> Cliff
>
>
> Finally, Cliff, you hit the nail on the head. =C2-I agree. =C2-There
> is
> a real possibility there is something going on that could
> account20for the d
> ifferences in temperatures. =C2-I doubt, seriously, that it is just
> the pr
> obes.
>
>
> And. =C2-It has nothing to do with a recent change in vendors. =C2-I
> fir
> st noticed this difference around 1995 when I installed my first JPI
> 700.
> =C2-
>
>
> And. =C2-It isn't just my plane. =C2-I installed a JPI 700 in one
> Comanc
> he and a JPI 800 in another Comanche in place of previously
> installed EI uni
> ts. =C2-Both owners came back saying their engines were running hot.
> =C2
> -One owner, the 700, bought another EI and had me put it in instead.
> =C2
> -The other owner was willing to accept th
> e higher readings.
>
>
> Gil. =C2-Just how many grounds is enough? =C2-Are you concerned
> about gr
> ound loops? =C2-I've run the ground to a common avionics ground AND
> to the
> ground on the engine from the avionics ground. =C2-No change. =C2-I've
> tried just the avionics ground. =C2-I've tried just the engine ground.
> =C2-No change. =C2-
>
>
> Like I wrote in the STAR, the temps start out the same before start-
> up. =C2
> -The JPI temps rise faster and to a higher reading than the EI temps.
>
>
> And. =C2-There is no way to know the actual test set up used by
> Lycoming.
> C2
>
>
> I have an old Gem in a box somewhere. =C2-It has no digital readout.
> =C2
> -Gil, if yours has no digital readout, with 25 degree per bar
> accuracy, ho
> w do you know what th
> e temperature is? =C2-
>
>
> And. Speculation: =C2-I would expect that the makers of these
> analyzers to
> ok into consideration various millivolt differences. =C2-If they saw
> diffe
> rences of 3 degrees, I doubt they cared.
>
>
> And. =C2-If this had only happened to one installation, then I would
> look
> at the installation. =C2-It is a universal experience that the JPI
> reads h
> igher. =C2-
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
>
>
> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 7:35 pm
>
>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
>
> Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two
> different styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard P-100, that he
> tested an
> d
> found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large
> differences in
>
> temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with
> the fixed
>
> probe.=C2- And all the accusations, or implications at least, are
> that the
>
> fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a
> real
> possibility that=2
> 0it could be due to something completely
> different.
>
>
> =C2-
>
>
> Cliff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
> From:
> Gil
> Alexander
>
>
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:13
> PM
>
>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumm
> an-List: RE: EI vs
> JPI
>
>
> Ned... I believe the GG post you refer to still references
>
> Gary's EI/JPI measurements....:^)
>
>
> He just says below that the EI
> non-bayonet probes read lower - which does not seem to be in
> dispute....:^)
>
>
> And do you really think Lycoming used a non-MIL-Spec
> probe, especially in the 60's, for certification?=C2- I vote for
> probes
> that
> touch the cylinder.
>
>
> gil A
>
>
> At 07:05 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
>
>
> I started this thread b
> ecause of similar
> thread that was started on the GG. I understood one poster to say
> that h
> e
> too had experienced higher readings with JPI type probes that
> actually t
> ouch
> the thermowell. He had both in his Cheetah and found that the
> probes tha
> t
> touch the head actually give a higher reading.
>
>
> =C2-
>
>
> So in answer to Gil's post it appears that
> others have noted the diffenece in temp readings besides
> Gary.
>
>
> =C2-
>
>
> Someone at
> Lycoming needs to answer this question, at least the question of
> the typ
> e of
> probe they used. Right now we are just speculating on what type
> of probe
>
> they used.
>
>
> =C2-
>
>
> Ned
>
>
> =C2-
>
>
> Here is the post I refer
> to:
>
>
> =C2-
>
>
> =C2-
>
>
> -----
> Original Message -----
> From: John Horton
>
>
> Sent: Tuesday,
> March 24, 2009209:19 PM
>
>
> Subject: RE: Tiger outlet ramps - More Info
> Req.
>
>
> Dave,
>
>
> I would direct you to look at
>
>
> http://www.bondline.org/wiki/Lower_Cowling_Split
>
>
> for
> info about reworking the exit ramps.=C2- That link will only
> provide
> info
>
>
> about
>
>
> the metal exit ramps but that's half the
> options.
>
>
> When you mention that your temps are "warm" be sure to
> review the GG archives
>
>
> about JPI instrumentation vs EI instrumentation.
> There are differences in
>
>
> probe
>
>
> design that make JPI read higher that
> EI in what should be the same cylinder.
>
>
> So if you have JP CHT and think
> your running "warm" you might be just fine if
>
>
> you had EI CHT.=C2-
> Theres a good bit of reading in the archives on that
> topic.
>
>
> My
>
>
> consensus after reviewing (and I might still have it wrong)
> is that JP CHT
>
>
> reads
>
>
> hotter than EI due to the fact that the JP CHT
> probe actually is spring
>
>
> loaded
>
>
> to touch the cyl head. The EI CHT
> probe screws into a space in the cyl head.
>
>
> I
>
>
> have had both in my plane
> (Cheetah) and can verify that fact. The pro
> bes are
>
>
> different and the JP
> touches the head and reads hotter.
>
>
> So if you have=C2- JP CHT gauge
> and it reads 420 in climb your most likely fine.
>
>
> (Assuming the temp goes
> down when you level out)=2
> 0The same plane may well read
>
>
> 385 with a EI CHT
> and it is fine also. Be sure to know your temp source (EI
>
>
> or
>
>
> JP) and
>
> read the archives to get a feel for the differences before you go
> and
>
>
> rework your exit ramps. They might be fine.
>
>
> I recently
> reworked my exit ramps on my Cheetah due to a "warmer" than
> I'd
>
>
> like
>
>
> #4 cyl, cracks in my metal exit ramps and a newly minted
> A&P ticket that
>
>
> allowed
>
>
> me to do it. I have only flown it once and
> the results looked promising.
>
>
> Tommorrow I hope to gather more flight
> data. I currently have a JP CHT/EGT
>
>
> and
>
>
> in climb prior to the ramp
> work could occasionally hit 450 (my and Lycomings
>
>
> redline).=C2- I could
> easily get into the 430's in climb and have to nose over
>
>
> and
>
>
> or
> throttle back to arrest the CHT rise.=C2- When I had the EI CHT
> gauge
> I
> never
>
>
> saw anything above 390.
>
>
> After reworking the ramps I do
> expect to go faster, climb higher and do it
>
>
> all
>
>
> with 1/3 flaps
> deployed for less gallons per hour. I just had to throw that
>
>
> in
>
>
> in
> case there aren't
> enough emotionally loaded topics to write
> about.
>
>
> John Horton
>
>
> HC Cheetah
>
>
> Sensenich Prop
>
>
> =C2------ Original Message -----
>
>
> Fr
> om: Gil Alexander
>
>
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 8:41 PM
>
>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
>
> Gary,
>
>
> How many STCs have you installed with poor/bad/wrong
> instructions?=C2- And the CHT/EGT monitor STCs are quite
> "generic" n
> ot
> really airframe specific.
>
>
> My latest one was my Plane Power voltage regulator.=C2- Works fine,
> but needed spacers to clear the "bumps" on the fire wall -
> hardly a
> drop-in exact replacement for the non flat bottom mechanical
> regulator
> -
> and no mention in the STC instructions.
>
>
> Your plane seems to be the only test case reporting the problem.=C2-
> I'm happy with the Insight GEM in mine with it's probes that
> touch the
>
> thermowell bottom like I believe the Lycoming test bayonet
> probes did
> during their certification.
>
>
> As an electronics engineer, I know I would not design sensitive
> millivolts
> equipment using grounded sensors.... but that's just me.... and
> my stuff is (or has been) working in military aircraft and space
> vehicles....:^)
>
>
> gil A
>
>
> PS ...I like the GEM unit, but I have the20"bars on
> ly" version - I
> would prefer the version with numbers - a probable future
> upgrade.
>
>
> PPS=C2- Sorry about the formatting of the mV chart in my previous
> e-mail
>
>
> Here is an alternate link to another table of National Institute of
> Standards and Technology output voltages from a Type J
> thermocouple
> -
>
>
> http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf
>
>
> This shows how small the DC voltages are that we are
> measuring.
>
>
> At 05:40 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
>
>
> There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we
> are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would
> personally vote
> for
> grounding issues.=C3=82
>
>
> MY PLANE? =C3=82 Ok, maybe your right. =C3=82 The grounds in installed
> according to the STC were done wrong. =C3=82 Maybe the probes
> ground
> ing
> 20 against brand new cylinders had corrosion built up in them.
> =C3=82
> =C2-
>
>
> Maybe planes experiencing CHT readings higher on a JPI than on an EI
> also followed the installation i
> nstructions.
>
>
> How about you doing your own testing and report your own
> 20 results?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
>
>
> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:03 pm
>
>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
>
> This is only true if, and it's a big IF, the temperatures
> displayed on todays instrumentation "WOULD" have displayed
> the sam
> e
> temperatures as those recorded by Lycoming technicians=C3=83
> =9A on the
> instrumentation used by Lycoming. =C3=83=9A=C3=82=C2-
>
>
> Gary... I don't belief that is a big "IF"...
>
>
> The electrical characteristics of a type J thermocouple have been
> well known from long before WWII.
>
>
> The electrical instrument
> ation bit has not changed over the years as
> far as the basic thermocouple, especially when used in an
> engine tes
> t
> cell.=C3=82=C2- I bet Lycoming had individual CHT meters
> directly
> conn
> ected
> to the probes, none of this fancy digital switching, scanning
> stuff....:^)
>
>
> Today the probes and the interconnect may be different, but the a
> type J thermocouple h
> as always created the same amount of voltage due to
> physics.
>
>
> There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we
> are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would personally
> vote fo
> r
> grounding issues.=C3=82=C2- You can see from the table below
> that
> 10
> degrees Centigrade is about a 1/2 milliVolt change.=C3=82=C2-
> Try
> a direct
> wire from GND on your EI gauge to the engine.
>
>
> This is from Sandia labs...=C3=82=C2- gil A
>
>
> =C3=82 ITS-90 Table for type J=C3=82=C2- thermocouple
>
>
> =C3=82 =C3=82=C2=B0C=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82
> =C3=82
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>
>
> 1=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 2=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> =C3
> =82
>
>
> 3=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 4=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> =C3
> =82
>
>
> 5=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 6=C3=82 =C3=82=2
> 0=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>
>
> 7=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 8=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> =C3
> =82
>
>
> 9=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 10
>
>
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=8220=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> =C3=82 =C3
> =82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> =C3=82
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>
>
> Thermoelectric Voltage in mV
>
>
> =C3=82
>
>
> =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82=C2- 0.000=C3=82=C2- 0.050=C3=82=C2- 0.101
> =C
> 3=C2- 0.151=C3=82
>
>
> 0.202=C3=82=C2- 0.253=C3=82=C2- 0.303=C3=82=C2- 0.354=C3=82=C2- 0.40
> 5=C3=82=C2-
> 0.456=C3=82
>
>
> 0.507
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 10=C3=82=C2- 0.507=C3=82=C2- 0.558=C3=82=C2- 0.609=C3=82
> =C2- 0.660=C3=82
>
>
> 0.711=C3=82=C2- 0.762=C3=82=C2- 0.814=C3=82=C2- 0.865=C3=82=C2- 0.91
> 6=C3=82=C2-
> 0.968=C3=82
>
>
> 1.019
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 20=C3=82=C2- 1.019=C3=82=C2- 1.071
>
>
> =C2-1.122=C3=82=C2- 1.174=C3=82
>
>
> 1.226=C3=82=C2- 1.277=C3=82=C2- 1.329=C3=82=C2- 1.381=C3=82=C2- 1.43
> 3=C3=82=C2-
> 1.485=C3=82
>
>
> 1.537
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 30=C3=82=C2- 1.537=C3=82=C2- 1.589=C3=82=C2- 1.641=C3=82
> =C2- 1.693=C3=82
>
>
> 1.745=C3=82=C2- 1.797=C3=82=C2- 1.849=C3=82=C2- 1.902=C3=82=C2- 1.95
> 4=C3=82=C2-
> 2.006=C3=82
>
>
> 2.059
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 40=C3=82=C2- 2.059=C3=82=C2- 2.111=C3=82=C2- 2.164=C3=82
> =C2- 2.216=C3=82
>
>
> 2.269=C3=82=C2- 2.322=C3=82=C2- 2.374=C3=82=C2- 2.427=C3=82=C2- 2.48
> 0=C3=82=C2-
> 2.532=C3=82
>
>
> 2.585
>
>
> =C3=82=C2-
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 50=C3=82=C2- 2.585=C3=82=C2- 2.6382=C2- 2.691=C3=82=C2
> - 2.744=C3=82
>
>
> 2.797=C3=82=C2- 2.850=C3=82=C2- 2.903=C3=82=C2- 2.956=C3=82=C2- 3.00
> 9=C3=82=C2-
> 3.062=C3=82
>
>
> 3.116
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 60=C3=82=C2- 3.116=C3=82=C2- 3.169C3=C2- 3.222=C3=82=C2
> - 3.275=C3=82
>
>
> 3.329=C3=82=C2- 3.382=C3=82=C2- 3.436=C3=82=C2- 3.489=C3=82=C2- 3.54
> 3=C3=82=C2-
> 3.596=C3=82
>
>
> 3.650
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 70=C3=82=C2- 3.650=C3=82=C2- 3.703=C3=82=C2- 3.757=C3=82
> =C2- 3.810=C3=82
>
>
> 3.864=C3=82=C2- 3.918=C3=82=C2- 3.971=C3=82=C2- 4.025=C3=82=C2- 4.07
> 9=C3=82=C2-
> 4.133=C3=82
>
>
> 4.187
>
>
> =0
> A=C3=82=C2- 80=C3=82=C2- 4.187=C3=82=C2- 4.240=C3=82=C2- 4.294=C3
> =82=C2- 4.348=C3=82
>
>
> 4.402=C3=82=C2- 4.456=C3=82=C2- 4.510=C3=82=C2- 4.564=C3=82=C2- 4.61
> 8=C3=82=C2-
> 4.672=C3=82
>
>
> 4.726
>
>
> =C3=82=C2- 90=C3=82=C2- 4.726=C3=82=C2- 4.781=C3=82=C2- 4.835=C3=82
> =C2- 4.889=C3=82
>
>
> 4.943=C3=82=C2- 4.997=C3=82=C2- 5.052=C3=82=C2- 5.106=C3=82=C2- 5.16
> 0=C3=82=C2-
> 5.215=C3=82
>
>
> 5.269
>
>
> =C3=82=C2-
>
>
> =C3=82 100=C3=82=C2- 5.269=C3=82=C2- 5.323=C3=82=C2- 5.378=C3=82=C2
> - 5.432=C3=82
>
>
> 5.487=C3=82=C2- 5.541=C3=82=C2- 5.595=C3=82=C2- 5.650=C3=82=C2- 5.70
> 5=C3=82=C2-
> 5.759=C3=82
>
>
> 5.814
>
>
> =C3=82 110=C3=82=C2- 5.814=C3=82=C2- 5.868=C3=82=C2- 5.923=C3=82=C2
> - 5.977=C3=82
>
>
> 6.032=C3=82=C2- 6.087=C3=82=C2- 6.141=C3=82=C2- 6.196=C3=82=C2- 6.25
> 1=C3=82=C2-
> 6.306=C3=82
>
>
> 6.360
>
>
> =C3=82 120=C3=82=C2- 6.360=C3=82=C2- 6.415=C3=82=C2- 6.470=C3=82=C2
> - 6.525=C3=82
>
>
> 6.579=C3=82=C2- 6.634=C3=82=C2- 6.689=C3=82=C2- 6.744=C
> 3=C2- 6.799=C3=82=C2-
> 6.854=C3=82
>
>
> 6.909
>
>
> =C3=82 130=C3=82=C2- 6.909=C3=82=C2- 6.964=C3=82=C2- 7.019=C3=82=C2
> - 7.074=C3=82
>
>
> 7.129=C3=82=C2- 7.184=C3=82=C2- 7.239=C3=82=C2- 7.29
> 4=C3=82=C2- 7.349=C3=82=C2-
> 7.404=C3=82
>
>
> 7.459
>
>
> =C3=82 140=C3=82=C2- 7.4590 7.514=C3=82=C2- 7.569=C3=82=C2- 7.624=C3
> =82
>
>
> 7.679=C3=82=C2- 7.734=C3=82=C2- 7.789=C3=82=C2- 7.844=C3=82=C2- 7.90
> 0=C3=82=C2-
> 7.955=C3=82
>
>
> 8.010
>
>
> =C3=82=C2-
>
>
> =C3=82 150=C3=82=C2- 8.010=C3=82=C2- 8.065=C3=82=C2- 8.120=C3=82=C2
> - 8.175=C3=82
>
>
> 8.231=C3=82=C2- 8.286=C3=82=C2- 8.341=C3=82=C2- 8.396
> =C3=82=C2- 8.452=C3=82=C2-
> 8.507=C3=82
>
>
> 8.562
>
>
> =C3=82 160=C3=82=C2- 8.562=C3=82=C2- 8.618=C3=82=C2- 8.673=C3=82=C2
> - 8.728=C3=82
>
>
> 8.783=C3=82=C2- 8.839=C3=82=C2- 8.894=C3=82=C2- 8.949=C3=82=C2- 9.00
> 5=C3=82=C2-
> 9.060=C3=82
>
>
> 9.115
>
>
> =C3=82 170=C3=82=C2- 9.115=C3=82=C2- 9.171=C3=82=C2- 9.226=C3=82=C2
> - 9.282=C3=82
>
>
> 9.337=C3=82=C2- 9.392=C3=82=C2- 9.448=C3=82=C2- 9.503=C3=82=C2- 9.55
> 9=C3=82=C2-
> 9.614=C3=82
>
>
> 9.669
>
>
> =C3=82 180=C3=82=C2- 9.669=C3=82=C2- 9.725=C3=82=C2- 9.780=C3=82=C2
> - 9.836=C3=82
>
>
> 9.891=C3=82=C2- 9.947 10.002 10.057 10.113 10.168 10.224
>
>
> =C3=82 190 10.224 10.279 10.335 10.390 10.446 10.501 10.557 10.612
> 10.668
>
>
> 10.723 10.779
>
>
> =C3=82=C2-
>
>
> =C3=82 200 10.779 10.834 10.890 10.945 11.001 11.056 11.112 11.167
> 11.223
>
>
> 11.278 11.334
>
>
> =C3=82 210 11.334 11.389 11.445 11.501 11.556 11.612 11.667 11.723
> 11.778
>
>
> 11.834 11.889
>
>
> =C3=82 220 11.889 11.945 12.000 12.056 12.111 12.167 12.222 12.278
> 12.334
>
>
> 12.389 12.445
>
>
> =C3=82 230 12.445 12.500 12.556 12.611 12.667 12.722 12.7
> 78 12.833 12.889
>
>
> 12.944 13.000
>
>
> =C3=82 240 13.000 13.056 13.111 13.167 13.222 13.278 13.333 13.389
> 13.444
>
>
> 13.500 13.555
>
>
> =C3=82=C2-
>
>
> =C3=82 250 13.555 13.611 13.666 13.722 13.777 13.833 13.888 13.944
> 13.999
>
>
> 14.055 14.110
>
>
> =C3=82 260 14.110 14.166 14.221 14.277 14.332 14.388 14.443 14.499
> 14.554
>
>
> 14.609 14.665
>
>
> =C3=82 270 14.665 14.720 14.776 14.831 14.887 14.942 14.998 15.053
> 15.109
>
>
> 15.164 15.21
> 9
>
>
> =C3=82 280 15.219 15.275 15.330 15.386 15.441 15.496 15.552 15.607
> 15.663
>
>
> 15.718 15.773
>
>
> =C3=82 290 15.773 15.829 15.884 15.940 15.995 16.050 16.106 16.161 16.
>
>
> 216
>
>
> 16.272 16.327
>
>
> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>
>
> p://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.
> ?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx
> %3Fs
> c%3D668072%26hmp
> gID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62">
> See yours in just 2 easy steps!
>
>
> href="
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>
>
> href="
> http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> href="
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> ===============3
> D===================
> p://forums.matronics.com
> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> 3/28/2009 7:16 AM
>
>
> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
>
>
> ch as List Un/Subscription,
> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> p://forums.matronics.com
> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Abo
> ve. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
>
>
> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> _-3D
> p://forums.matronics.com
> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
>
>
> ===========
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 8
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 12:34:58 PM PST US
> From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>
> Into the mix but a completely different type of sensor.
>
> No thermocouples here - it's either a resistive
> sensor, or a semiconductor junction type sensor.
>
> Apples and Oranges.... gilA
>
> At 10:43 AM 3/30/2009, you wrote:
>> Just to add to the mix. =C2
>>
>> On the flight tests, we also measured Oil Temp
>> and OAT with the EI. =C2 Oil temp was measured at
>> the oil filter adaptor and OAT was a probe stuck out the canopy at
>> the top.
> =C2
>>
>> Oil temp on the EI was within 5 degrees of the
>> oil temp measured by the JPI in the front right galley plug.
>>
>> Oat on the JPI was slightly colder, 1 to 4
>> degrees, with the JPI probed located under the
>> left wing at the most forward inspection cover.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: teamgrumman@aol.com
>> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:23 am
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>>
>> Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the
>> two different styles of EI probes, bayonet and
>> standard P-100, that he tested and found very
>> little difference between the two.=C2 The large
>> differences in temperature mentioned are between
>> JPI with the bayonet and EI with the fixed
>> probe.=C2 And all the accusations, or
>> implications at least, are that the fixed EI
>> probe does not measure the true
>> temperature.=C2 There is a real possibility that
>> it could be due to something completely different.
>> =C2
>> Cliff
>>
>> Finally, Cliff, you hit the nail on the head. =C2
>> I agree. =C2 There is a real possibility there is
>> something going on that could account for the
>> differences in temperatures. =C2 I doubt, seriously, that it is
>> just the
> probes.
>>
>> And. =C2 It has nothing to do with a recent change
>> in vendors. =C2 I first noticed this difference
>> around 1995 when I installed my first JPI 700. =C2
>>
>> And. =C2 It isn't just my plane. =C2 I installed a
>> JPI 700 in one Comanche and a JPI 800 in another
>> Comanche in place of previously installed EI
>> units. =C2 Both owners came back saying their
>> engines were running hot. =C2 One owner, the 700,
>> bought another EI and had me put it in instead.
>> =C2 The other owner was willing to accept th e higher readings.
>>
>> Gil. =C2 Just how many grounds is enough? =C2 Are
>> you concerned about ground loops? =C2 I've run the
>> ground to a common avionics ground AND to the
>> ground on the engine from the avionics ground. =C2
>> No change. =C2 I've tried just the avionics
>> ground. =C2 I've tried just the engine ground. =C2 No change. =C2
>>
>> Like I wrote in the STAR, the temps start out
>> the same before start-up. =C2 The JPI temps rise
>> faster and to a higher reading than the EI temps.
>>
>> And. =C2 There is no way to know the actual test set up used by
>> Lycoming.
> C2
>>
>> I have an old Gem in a box somewhere. =C2 It has
>> no digital readout. =C2 Gil, if yours has no
>> digital readout, with 25 degree per bar
>> accuracy, how do you know what the temperature is? =C2
>>
>> And. Speculation: =C2 I would expect that the
>> makers of these analyzers took into
>> consideration various millivolt differences. =C2
>> If they saw differences of 3 degrees, I doubt they cared.
>>
>> And. =C2 If this had only happened to one
>> installation, then I would look at the
>> installation. =C2 It is a universal experience that the JPI reads
>> higher.
> =C2
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: flyv35b <<mailto:flyv35b@minetfiber.com>flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
>> To: <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 7:35 pm
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>>
>> Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the
>> two different styles of EI probes, bayonet and
>> standard P-100, that he tested and found very
>> little difference between the two.=C2 The large
>> differences in temperature mentioned are between
>> JPI with the bayonet and EI with the fixed
>> probe.=C2 And all the accusations, or
>> implications at least, are that the fixed EI
>> probe does not measure the true
>> temperature.=C2 There is a real possibility
>> that=2 0it could be due to something completely different.
>> =C2
>> Cliff
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <mailto:gilalex@earthlink.net>Gil Alexander
>> To: <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>>
>> Ned... I believe the GG post you refer to still
>> references Gary's EI/JPI measurements....:^)
>>
>> He just says below that the EI non-bayonet
>> probes read lower - which does not seem to be in dispute....:^)
>>
>> And do you really think Lycoming used a
>> non-MIL-Spec probe, especially in the 60's, for
>> certification?=C2 I vote for probes that touch the cylinder.
>>
>> gil A
>>
>> At 07:05 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
>>> I started this thread b ecause of similar
>>> thread that was started on the GG. I understood
>>> one poster to say that he too had experienced
>>> higher readings with JPI type probes that
>>> actually touch the thermowell. He had both in
>>> his Cheetah and found that the probes that
>>> touch the head actually give a higher reading.
>>> =C2
>>> So in answer to Gil's post it appears that
>>> others have noted the diffenece in temp readings besides Gary.
>>> =C2
>>> Someone at Lycoming needs to answer this
>>> question, at least the question of the type of
>>> probe they used. Right now we are just
>>> speculating on what type of probe they used.
>>> =C2
>>> Ned
>>> =C2
>>> Here is the post I refer to:
>>> =C2
>>> =C2
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: <mailto:hortonjf@comcast.net>John
> Horton
>>> To: <mailto:3d.flyguy@abszero.com>'Dave
>>> Kalwick' ; <mailto:grumman-gang@xmission.com>'GG'
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:19 PM
>>> Subject: RE: Tiger outlet ramps - More Info Req.
>>>
>>> Dave,
>>> I would direct you to look at
>>> http://www.bondline.org/wiki/Lower_Cowling_Split< /a>
>>> for info about reworking the exit ramps.=C2 That link will only
>>> provide
> info
>>> about
>>> the metal exit ramps but that's half the options.
>>>
>>> When you mention that your temps are "warm" be sure to review the GG
> archives
>>> about JPI instrumentation vs EI instrumentation. There are
>>> differences in
>>> probe
>>> design that make JPI read higher that EI in what should be the same
> cylinder.
>>> So if you have JP CHT and think your running "warm" you might be
>>> just fine
> if
>>> you had EI CHT.=C2 Theres a good bit of reading in the archives
>>> on that
> topic.
>>> My
>>> consensus after reviewing (and I might still have it wrong) is
>>> that JP CHT
>>> reads
>>> hotter than EI due to the fact that the JP CHT probe actually is
>>> spring
>>> loaded
>>> to touch the cyl head. The EI CHT probe screws into a space in the
>>> cyl
> head.
>>> I
>>> have had both in my plane (Cheetah) and can verify that fact. The
>>> pro bes
> are
>>> different and the JP touches the head and reads hotter.
>>>
>>> So if you have=C2 JP CHT gauge and it reads 420
>>> in climb your most likely fine.
>>> (Assuming the temp goes down when you level out) The same plane
>>> may well
> read
>>> 385 with a EI CHT and it is fine also. Be sure to know your temp
>>> source
> (EI
>>> or
>>> JP) and read the archives to get a feel for the differences before
>>> you go
> and
>>> rework your exit ramps. They might be fine.
>>>
>>> I recently reworked my exit ramps on my Cheetah due to a "warmer"
>>> than I'd
>>> like
>>> #4 cyl, cracks in my metal exit ramps and a newly minted A&P
>>> ticket that
>>> allowed
>>> me to do it. I have only flown it once and the results looked
>>> promising.
>>> Tommorrow I hope to gather more flight data. I currently have a JP
>>> CHT/EGT
>>> and
>>> in climb prior to the ramp work could occasionally hit 450 (my and
> Lycomings
>>> redline).=C2 I could easily get into the 430's in climb and have
>>> to nose
> over
>>> and
>>> or throttle back to arrest the CHT rise.=C2 When
>>> I had the EI CHT gauge I never
>>> saw anything above 390.
>>>
>>> After reworking the ramps I do expect to go faster, climb higher
>>> and do it
>>> all
>>> with 1/3 flaps deployed for less gallons per hour. I just had to
>>> throw
> that
>>> in
>>> in case there aren't enough emotionally loaded topics to write
>>> about.
>>>
>>> John Horton
>>> HC Cheetah
>>> Sensenich Prop
>>> =C2 ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: <mailto:gilalex@earthlink.net>Gil Alexander
>>> To: <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matro nics.com>teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 8:41 PM
>>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>>> Gary,
>>> How many STCs have you installed with
>>> poor/bad/wrong instructions?=C2 And the CHT/EGT
>>> monitor STCs are quite "generic" not really airframe specific.
>>> My latest one was my Plane Power voltage
>>> regulator.=C2 Works fine, but needed spacers to
>>> clear the "bumps" on the fire wall - hardly a
>>> drop-in exact replacement for the non flat
>>> bottom mechanical regulator - and no mention in the STC
>>> instructions.
>>> Your plane seems to be the only test case
>>> reporting the problem.=C2 I'm happy with the
>>> Insight GEM in mine with it's probes that touch
>>> the thermowell bottom like I believe the
>>> Lycoming test bayonet probes did during their certification.
>>> As an electronics engineer, I know I would not
>>> design sensitive millivolts equipment using
>>> grounded sensors.... but that's just me.... and
>>> my stuff is (or has been) working in military
>>> aircraft and space vehicles....:^)
>>> gil A
>>> PS ...I like the GEM unit, but I have the "bars
>>> on ly" version - I would prefer the version
>>> with numbers - a probable future upgrade.
>>> PPS=C2 Sorry about the formatting of the mV chart in my previous
>>> e-mail
>>> Here is an alternate link to another table of
>>> National Institute of Standards and Technology
>>> output voltages from a Type J thermocouple -
>>>
>>> <http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf>http://www.omega.com/temp
> erature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf
>>> This shows how small the DC voltages are that we are measuring.
>>> At 05:40 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:
>>>> There is something else going on here in your
>>>> plane - and since we are dealing with
>>>> fractions of milliVolts, I would personally vote for grounding
>>>> issues.=C3
> =82
>>>>
>>>> MY PLANE? =C3=82 Ok, maybe your right. =C3=82 The
>>>> grounds in installed according to the STC were
>>>> done wrong. =C3=82 Maybe the probes grounding 20
>>>> against brand new cylinders had corrosion built up in them.
>>>> =C3=82=C2
>>>> Maybe planes experiencing CHT readings higher
>>>> on a JPI than on an EI also followed the installation i
>>>> nstructions.
>>>> How about you doing your own testing and report your own results?
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Gil Alexander <<mailto:gilalex@earthlink.net>gilalex@earthlink.net
>>>> >
>>>> To: <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>>>> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:03 pm
>>>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> This is only true if, and it's a big IF, the
>>>>> temperatures displayed on todays
>>>>> instrumentation "WOULD" have displayed the
>>>>> same temperatures as those recorded by
>>>>> Lycoming technicians=C3=83=9A on the instrumentation used by
> Lycoming. =C3=83=82=C3=82=C2
>>>> Gary... I don't belief that is a big "IF"...
>>>> The electrical characteristics of a type J
>>>> thermocouple have been well known from long before WWII.
>>>> The electrical instrument ation bit has not
>>>> changed over the years as far as the basic
>>>> thermocouple, especially when used in an
>>>> engine test cell.=C3=82=C2 I bet Lycoming had
>>>> individual CHT meters directly conn ected to
>>>> the probes, none of this fancy digital switching, scanning
>>>> stuff....:^)
>>>> Today the probes and the interconnect may be
>>>> different, but the a type J thermocouple has
>>>> always created the same amount of voltage due to physics.
>>>> There is something else going on here in your
>>>> plane - and since we are dealing with
>>>> fractions of milliVolts, I would personally
>>>> vote for grounding issues.=C3=82=C2 You can see
>>>> from the table below that 10 degrees
>>>> Centigrade is about a 1/2 milliVolt
>>>> change.=C3=82=C2 Try a direct wire from GND on your EI gauge to
>>>> the
> engine.
>>>> This is from Sandia labs...=C3=82=C2 gil A
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 ITS-90 Table for type J=C3=82=C2 thermocouple
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 =C3=82=C2=B0C=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2
>>>> 0=C3=82 =C3=82
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 2=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>>>> =C3=82 =C3
> =82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 3=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 4=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>>>> =C3=82 =C3
> =82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 5=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 6=C3=82 =C3=82=2
>>>>
>>>> 0=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 7=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 8=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>>>> =C3=82 =C3
> =82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 9=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 10
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=8220=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>>>> =C3=82
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>>>> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>>>> =C3=82 =C3
> =82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thermoelectric Voltage in mV
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 0=C3=82=C2 0.000=C3=82=C2 0.050=C3=82=C2
>>>> 0.101=C3=82
> =C2 0.151=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 0.202=C3=82=C2 0.253=C3=82=C2 0.303=C3=82=C2 0.354=C3=82=C2
>>>> 0.405=C3
> =82=C2
>>>>
>>>> 0.456=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 0.507
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82=C2 10=C3=82=C2 0.507=C3=82=C2 0.558=C3=82=C2
>>>> 0.609=C3=82=C2
> 0.660=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 0.711=C3=82=C2 0.762=C3=82=C2 0.814=C3=82=C2 0.865=C3=82=C2
>>>> 0.916=C3
> =82=C2
>>>>
>>>> 0.968=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1.019
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82=C2 20=C3=82=C2 1.019=C3=82=C2 1.071
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C2 1.122=C3=82=C2 1.174=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1.226=C3=82=C2 1.277=C3=82=C2 1.329=C3=82=C2 1.381=C3=82=C2
>>>> 1.433=C3
> =82=C2
>>>>
>>>> 1.485=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1.537
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82=C2 30=C3=82=C2 1.537=C3=82=C2 1.589=C3=82=C2
>>>> 1.641=C3=82=C2
> 1.693=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1.745=C3=82=C2 1.797=C3=82=C2 1.849=C3=82=C2 1.902=C3=82=C2
>>>> 1.954=C3
> =82=C2
>>>>
>>>> 2.006=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2.059
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82=C2 40=C3=82=C2 2.059=C3=82=C2 2.111=C3=82=C2
>>>> 2.164=C3=82=C2
> 2.216=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2.269=C3=82=C2 2.322=C3=82=C2 2.374=C3=82=C2 2.427=C3=82=C2
>>>> 2.480=C3
> =82=C2
>>>>
>>>> 2.532=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2.585
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82=C2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82=C2 50=C3=82=C2 2.585=C3=82=C2 2.6382=C2 2.691=C3=82=C2
> 2.744=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2.797=C3=82=C2 2.850=C3=82=C2 2.903=C3=82=C2 2.956=C3=82=C2
>>>> 3.009=C3
> =82=C2
>>>>
>>>> 3.062=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 3.116
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82=C2 60=C3=82=C2 3.116=C3=82=C2 3.169C3=C2 3.222=C3=82=C2
> 3.275=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 3.329=C3=82=C2 3.382=C3=82=C2 3.436=C3=82=C2 3.489=C3=82=C2
>>>> 3.543=C3
> =82=C2
>>>>
>>>> 3.596=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 3.650
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82=C2 70=C3=82=C2 3.650=C3=82=C2 3.703=C3=82=C2
>>>> 3.757=C3=82=C2
> 3.810=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 3.864=C3=82=C2 3.918=C3=82=C2 3.971=C3=82=C2 4.025=C3=82=C2
>>>> 4.079=C3
> =82=C2
>>>>
>>>> 4.133=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 4.187
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82=C2 80=C3=82=C2 4.187=C3=82=C2 4.240=C3=82=C2
>>>> 4.294=C3=82=C2
> 4.348=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 4.402=C3=82=C2 4.456=C3=82=C2 4.510=C3=82=C2 4.564=C3=82=C2
>>>> 4.618=C3
> =82=C2
>>>>
>>>> 4.672=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 4.726
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82=C2 90=C3=82=C2 4.726=C3=82=C2 4.781=C3=82=C2
>>>> 4.835=C3=82=C2
> 4.889=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 4.943=C3=82=C2 4.997=C3=82=C2 5.052=C3=82=C2 5.106=C3=82=C2
>>>> 5.160=C3
> =82=C2
>>>>
>>>> 5.215=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 5.269
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82=C2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 100=C3=82=C2 5.269=C3=82=C2 5.323=C3=82=C2 5.378=C3=82=C2
> 5.432=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 5.487=C3=82=C2 5.541=C3=82=C2 5.595=C3=82=C2 5.650=C3=82=C2
>>>> 5.705=C3
> =82=C2
>>>>
>>>> 5.759=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 5.814
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 110=C3=82=C2 5.814=C3=82=C2 5.868=C3=82=C2 5.923=C3=82=C2
> 5.977=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 6.032=C3=82=C2 6.087=C3=82=C2 6.141=C3=82=C2 6.196=C3=82=C2
>>>> 6.251=C3
> =82=C2
>>>>
>>>> 6.306=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 6.360
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 120=C3=82=C2 6.360=C3=82=C2 6.415=C3=82=C2 6.470=C3=82=C2
> 6.525=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 6.579=C3=82=C2 6.634=C3=82=C2 6.689=C3=82=C2 6.744=C
>>>>
>>>> 3=C2 6.799=C3=82=C2
>>>>
>>>> 6.854=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 6.909
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 130=C3=82=C2 6.909=C3=82=C2 6.964=C3=82=C2 7.019=C3=82=C2
> 7.074=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 7.129=C3=82=C2 7.184=C3=82=C2 7.239=C3=82=C2 7.29
>>>>
>>>> 4=C3=82=C2 7.349=C3=82=C2
>>>>
>>>> 7.404=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 7.459
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 140=C3=82=C2 7.4590 7.514=C3=82=C2 7.569=C3=82=C2
>>>> 7.624=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 7.679=C3=82=C2 7.734=C3=82=C2 7.789=C3=82=C2 7.844=C3=82=C2
>>>> 7.900=C3
> =82=C2
>>>>
>>>> 7.955=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 8.010
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82=C2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 150=C3=82=C2 8.010=C3=82=C2 8.065=C3=82=C2 8.120=C3=82=C2
> 8.175=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 8.231=C3=82=C2 8.286=C3=82=C2 8.341=C3=82=C2 8.396=C3=82=C2
>>>> 8.452=C3
> =82=C2
>>>>
>>>> 8.507=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 8.562
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 160=C3=82=C2 8.562=C3=82=C2 8.618=C3=82=C2 8.673=C3=82=C2
> 8.728=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 8.783=C3=82=C2 8.839=C3=82=C2 8.894=C3=82=C2 8.949=C3=82=C2
>>>> 9.005=C3
> =82=C2
>>>>
>>>> 9.060=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 9.115
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 170=C3=82=C2 9.115=C3=82=C2 9.171=C3=82=C2 9.226=C3=82=C2
> 9.282=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 9.337=C3=82=C2 9.392=C3=82=C2 9.448=C3=82=C2 9.503=C3=82=C2
>>>> 9.559=C3
> =82=C2
>>>>
>>>> 9.614=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 9.669
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 180=C3=82=C2 9.669=C3=82=C2 9.725=C3=82=C2 9.780=C3=82=C2
> 9.836=C3=82
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 9.891=C3=82=C2 9.947 10.002 10.057 10.113 10.168 10.224
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 190 10.224 10.279 10.335 10.390 10.446 10.501 10.557
>>>> 10.612 10.668
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 10.723 10.779
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82=C2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 200 10.779 10.834 10.890 10.945 11.001 11.056 11.112
>>>> 11.167 11.223
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 11.278 11.334
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 210 11.334 11.389 11.445 11.501 11.556 11.612 11.667
>>>> 11.723 11.778
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 11.834 11.889
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 220 11.889 11.945 12.000 12.056 12.111 12.167 12.222
>>>> 12.278 12.334
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 12.389 12.445
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 230 12.445 12.500 12.556 12.611 12.667 12.722 12.7
>>>>
>>>> 78 12.833 12.889
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 12.944 13.000
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 240 13.000 13.056 13.111 13.167 13.222 13.278 13.333
>>>> 13.389 13.444
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 13.500 13.555
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82=C2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 250 13.555 13.611 13.666 13.722 13.777 13.833 13.888
>>>> 13.944 13.999
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 14.055 14.110
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 260 14.110 14.166 14.221 14.277 14.332 14.388 14.443
>>>> 14.499 14.554
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 14.609 14.665
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 270 14.665 14.720 14.776 14.831 14.887 14.942 14.998
>>>> 15.053 15.109
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 15.164 15.219
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 280 15.219 15.275 15.330 15.386 15.441 15.496 15.552
>>>> 15.607 15.663
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 15.718 15.773
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =C3=82 290 15.773 15.829 15.884 15.940 15.995 16.050 16.106
>>>> 16.161 16.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 216
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 16.272 16.327
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> or?TeamGrumman-List"><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> p://forums.matronics.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ution"><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/co
> ntribution
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------
>>>> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.
>>>> ?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx
>>>> %3Fsc%3D6
> 68072%26hmp
>>>> gID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62"> See yours in just 2 easy
>>>> steps!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> href="
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>>>
>>> "><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List>http://www.matronic
> s.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>>>
>>>
>>> href="
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com"><http://forums.matronics.com>http://forums.ma
> tronics.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> href="
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>> "><http://www.matronics.com/c>http://www.matronics.com/c
>>
>> or?TeamGrumman-List"><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> >h
> ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>>
>> ===============3
>>
>> D===================
>>
>> p://forums.matronics.com
>>
>> ution"><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/cont
> ribution
>>
>>
>> ----------
>> 3/28/2009 7:16 AM
>>
>>
>> ----------
>> I am using the Free version of <http://www.spamfighter.com/
>> len>SPAMfighter.
>> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
>>
>>
>> ch as List Un/Subscription,
>> or?TeamGrumman-List"><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> >h
> ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> p://forums.matronics.com
>> ution"><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/cont
> ribution
>>
>>
>> ----------
>> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
>>
>>
>> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> _-3D
>> p://forums.matronics.com
>> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>> ----------
>> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.
> http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc
> %3D668072%26hmpg
> ID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62>See
>> yours in just 2 easy steps!
>>
>
> ________________________________ Message 9
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 01:39:18 PM PST US
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: reciting thread posts
> From: "grumpyparts" <i.r.m@btinternet.com>
>
>
> For any of you out there that is finding the EIvsJPI thread
> interesting like me,
> but finding it hard to follow at times with all those emails may I
> suggest you
> follow it on the teamgrumman forum list, you should get a link from
> the message
> below.
>
> It's far easier to follow being able to flick back though all the
> earlier posts
> in case I've missed something, also I can delete all the emails and
> just look
> at the forum once a day to get the updates. Try it.
>
> Tip just keep the title the same so as not to create another topic.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236914#236914
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 10
> ____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:02:44 PM PST US
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: EI vs JPI
> From: "az_gila" <gilalex@earthlink.net>
>
>
> OK... now the point of discussion has morphed a bit.
>
> I thought it was "Bayonet probes vs. short, fixed probes" for CHTs.
>
> It seems to be now "JPI reads higher than EI" - which is quite a
> different issue.
>
> This gets into the electronic circuits used and how the
> manufacturers calibrate
> their equipment.
>
> gil A - a little confused... [Wink]
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236970#236970
>
>
> 05/15/2008
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 03/30/09 |
I took myself off of the GG list for the group went to one extreme=2C now i
s TG going to other extreme=2C
Myself=2C I read what I wish=2C gather the info that I feel relevent to the
thread and ignore the rest=2C and practice
self control out of the cockpit as well as in=3B)
Michael P. Jefferson
P.S. I have a 12 year old son that is also a co-pilot for me and reads thes
e threads
> From: airman@appledumplings.com
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 03/30/0
9
> Date: Tue=2C 31 Mar 2009 17:17:58 -0400
>
an@appledumplings.com>
>
> FUCK YOU ALL .... BE SMARTASS JERKS IF YOU LIKE I WAS JUST MAKING A
> COMMENT THAT IT MAKES IT UNREADABLE.
>
> PLEASE COME BE A SMART ASS At A FLY IN.
>
> On Mar 31=2C 2009=2C at 2:59 AM=2C TeamGrumman-List Digest Server wrote:
>
> > *
> >
> > =======================
=
> > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> > =======================
=
> >
> > Today's complete TeamGrumman-List Digest can also be found in either
> > of the
> > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
> > formatted
> > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked
> > Indexes
> > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII
> > version
> > of the TeamGrumman-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
> > editor
> > such as Notepad or with a web browser.
> >
> > HTML Version:
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=htm
l&Chapter 09-03-30&Archive=TeamGrumman
> >
> > Text Version:
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt
&Chapter 09-03-30&Archive=TeamGrumman
> >
> >
> > =======================
========================
> > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> > =======================
========================
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive
> > ---
> > Total Messages Posted Mon 03/30/09: 10
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > Today's Message Index:
> > ----------------------
> >
> > 1. 06:49 AM - Re: Re: EI vs JPI (flyv35b)
> > 2. 07:21 AM - EI vs JPI (Thomas Campbell)
> > 3. 07:48 AM - Re: EI vs JPI (flyv35b)
> > 4. 09:42 AM - Re: reciting thread posts (923te)
> > 5. 10:27 AM - Re: Re: EI vs JPI (teamgrumman@aol.com)
> > 6. 10:46 AM - Re: Re: EI vs JPI (teamgrumman@aol.com)
> > 7. 11:32 AM - Re: Re: EI vs JPI (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
> > 8. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: EI vs JPI (Gil Alexander)
> > 9. 01:39 PM - Re: reciting thread posts (grumpyparts)
> > 10. 07:02 PM - Re: EI vs JPI (az_gila)
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 1
> > _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 06:49:50 AM PST US
> > From: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >
> > This has been my point=2C there is very little difference between the
> > two
> > types of probes. If I recall this data from Steve was obtained on
> > different flights so the 3.5F is probably within the margin of error.
> > We don't have all the data or evidence yet and the jury is still out.
> >
> > Cliff
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: 923te
> > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> > Sent: Sunday=2C March 29=2C 2009 7:48 PM
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >
> >
> > Steve's conclusion "the EI longer P-101 probe does indeed read hotter
> > than the short P-100 probe by about 3.5 degrees F"
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: flyv35b
> > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> > Sent: Sunday=2C March 29=2C 2009 9:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >
> >
> > Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two different
> > styles of EI probes=2C bayonet and standard P-100=2C that he tested and
> > found very little difference between the two. The large differences
> > in
> > temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with the
> > fixed probe. And all the accusations=2C or implications at least=2C are
> > that the fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.
> > There is
> > a real possibility that it could be due to something completely
> > different.
> >
> > Cliff
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Gil Alexander
> > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> > Sent: Sunday=2C March 29=2C 2009 7:13 PM
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >
> >
> > Ned... I believe the GG post you refer to still references Gary's
> > EI/JPI measurements....:^)
> >
> > He just says below that the EI non-bayonet probes read lower -
> > which does not seem to be in dispute....:^)
> >
> > And do you really think Lycoming used a non-MIL-Spec probe=2C
> > especially in the 60's=2C for certification? I vote for probes that
> > touch
> > the cylinder.
> >
> > gil A
> >
> > At 07:05 PM 3/29/2009=2C you wrote:
> >
> > I started this thread because of similar thread that was
> > started
> > on the GG. I understood one poster to say that he too had experienced
> > higher readings with JPI type probes that actually touch the
> > thermowell.
> > He had both in his Cheetah and found that the probes that touch the
> > head
> > actually give a higher reading.
> >
> > So in answer to Gil's post it appears that others have noted
> > the
> > diffenece in temp readings besides Gary.
> >
> > Someone at Lycoming needs to answer this question=2C at least the
> > question of the type of probe they used. Right now we are just
> > speculating on what type of probe they used.
> >
> > Ned
> >
> > Here is the post I refer to:
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: John Horton
> > To: 'Dave Kalwick' =3B 'GG'
> > Sent: Tuesday=2C March 24=2C 2009 9:19 PM
> > Subject: RE: Tiger outlet ramps - More Info Req.
> >
> > Dave=2C
> > I would direct you to look at
> > http://www.bondline.org/wiki/Lower_Cowling_Split
> > for info about reworking the exit ramps. That link will only
> > provide info
> > about
> > the metal exit ramps but that's half the options.
> >
> > When you mention that your temps are "warm" be sure to review
> > the GG archives
> > about JPI instrumentation vs EI instrumentation. There are
> > differences in
> > probe
> > design that make JPI read higher that EI in what should be the
> > same cylinder.
> > So if you have JP CHT and think your running "warm" you might
> > be
> > just fine if
> > you had EI CHT. Theres a good bit of reading in the archives
> > on
> > that topic.
> > My
> > consensus after reviewing (and I might still have it wrong) is
> > that JP CHT
> > reads
> > hotter than EI due to the fact that the JP CHT probe actually
> > is
> > spring
> > loaded
> > to touch the cyl head. The EI CHT probe screws into a space in
> > the cyl head.
> > I
> > have had both in my plane (Cheetah) and can verify that fact.
> > The probes are
> > different and the JP touches the head and reads hotter.
> >
> > So if you have JP CHT gauge and it reads 420 in climb your
> > most
> > likely fine.
> > (Assuming the temp goes down when you level out) The same plane
> > may well read
> > 385 with a EI CHT and it is fine also. Be sure to know your
> > temp
> > source (EI
> > or
> > JP) and read the archives to get a feel for the differences
> > before you go and
> > rework your exit ramps. They might be fine.
> >
> > I recently reworked my exit ramps on my Cheetah due to a
> > "warmer" than I'd
> > like
> > #4 cyl=2C cracks in my metal exit ramps and a newly minted A&P
> > ticket that
> > allowed
> > me to do it. I have only flown it once and the results looked
> > promising.
> > Tommorrow I hope to gather more flight data. I currently have a
> > JP CHT/EGT
> > and
> > in climb prior to the ramp work could occasionally hit 450 (my
> > and Lycomings
> > redline). I could easily get into the 430's in climb and have
> > to nose over
> > and
> > or throttle back to arrest the CHT rise. When I had the EI CHT
> > gauge I never
> > saw anything above 390.
> >
> > After reworking the ramps I do expect to go faster=2C climb
> > higher
> > and do it
> > all
> > with 1/3 flaps deployed for less gallons per hour. I just had
> > to
> > throw that
> > in
> > in case there aren't enough emotionally loaded topics to write
> > about.
> >
> > John Horton
> > HC Cheetah
> > Sensenich Prop
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: Gil Alexander
> >
> > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> >
> > Sent: Sunday=2C March 29=2C 2009 8:41 PM
> >
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >
> >
> > Gary=2C
> >
> >
> > How many STCs have you installed with poor/bad/wrong
> > instructions? And the CHT/EGT monitor STCs are quite "generic" not
> > really airframe specific.
> >
> >
> > My latest one was my Plane Power voltage regulator. Works
> > fine=2C but needed spacers to clear the "bumps" on the fire wall -
> > hardly
> > a drop-in exact replacement for the non flat bottom mechanical
> > regulator
> > - and no mention in the STC instructions.
> >
> >
> > Your plane seems to be the only test case reporting the
> > problem. I'm happy with the Insight GEM in mine with it's probes that
> > touch the thermowell bottom like I believe the Lycoming test bayonet
> > probes did during their certification.
> >
> >
> > As an electronics engineer=2C I know I would not design
> > sensitive millivolts equipment using grounded sensors.... but that's
> > just me.... and my stuff is (or has been) working in military aircraft
> > and space vehicles....:^)
> >
> >
> > gil A
> >
> >
> > PS ...I like the GEM unit=2C but I have the "bars only" version
> > - I would prefer the version with numbers - a probable future upgrade.
> >
> >
> > PPS Sorry about the formatting of the mV chart in my
> > previous
> > e-mail
> >
> >
> > Here is an alternate link to another table of National
> > Institute of Standards and Technology output voltages from a Type J
> > thermocouple -
> >
> >
> > http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf
> >
> >
> > This shows how small the DC voltages are that we are
> > measuring.
> >
> >
> > At 05:40 PM 3/29/2009=2C you wrote:
> > There is something else going on here in your plane - and
> > since we are dealing with fractions of milliVolts=2C I would personally
> > vote for grounding issues.=C2
> >
> >
> > MY PLANE? =C2 Ok=2C maybe your right. =C2 The grounds in
> > installed according to the STC were done wrong. =C2 Maybe the probes
> > grounding against brand new cylinders had corrosion built up in them.
> > =C2
> >
> >
> > Maybe planes experiencing CHT readings higher on a JPI than
> > on an EI also followed the installation instructions.
> >
> >
> > How about you doing your own testing and report your own
> > results?
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
> >
> > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> >
> > Sent: Sun=2C 29 Mar 2009 12:03 pm
> >
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >
> >
> > This is only true if=2C and it's a big IF=2C the temperatures
> > displayed on todays instrumentation "WOULD" have displayed the same
> > temperatures as those recorded by Lycoming technicians=C3=2C on the
> > instrumentation used by Lycoming. =C3=2C=C2
> >
> >
> > Gary... I don't belief that is a big "IF"...
> >
> >
> > The electrical characteristics of a type J thermocouple
> > have
> > been well known from long before WWII.
> >
> >
> > The electrical instrumentation bit has not changed over the
> > years as far as the basic thermocouple=2C especially when used in an
> > engine test cell.=C2 I bet Lycoming had individual CHT meters
> > directly
> > connected to the probes=2C none of this fancy digital switching=2C
> > scanning
> > stuff....:^)
> >
> >
> > Today the probes and the interconnect may be different=2C but
> > the a type J thermocouple has always created the same amount of
> > voltage
> > due to physics.
> >
> >
> > There is something else going on here in your plane - and
> > since we are dealing with fractions of milliVolts=2C I would personally
> > vote for grounding issues.=C2 You can see from the table below that
> > 10
> > degrees Centigrade is about a 1/2 milliVolt change.=C2 Try a direct
> > wire from GND on your EI gauge to the engine.
> >
> >
> > This is from Sandia labs...=C2 gil A
> >
> >
> > =C2 ITS-90 Table for type J=C2 thermocouple
> >
> > =C2 =C2=B0C=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 0=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
=C2
> >
> > 1=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 2=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
> >
> > 3=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 4=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
> >
> > 5=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 6=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
> >
> > 7=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 8=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
> >
> > 9=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 10
> >
> > =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
> > =C2
> > =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
> >
> > Thermoelectric Voltage in mV
> >
> > =C2
> >
> > =C2 =C2 0=C2 0.000=C2 0.050=C2 0.101=C2 0.151=C2
> >
> > 0.202=C2 0.253=C2 0.303=C2 0.354=C2 0.405=C2
> > 0.456=C2
> >
> > 0.507
> >
> > =C2 10=C2 0.507=C2 0.558=C2 0.609=C2 0.660=C2
> >
> > 0.711=C2 0.762=C2 0.814=C2 0.865=C2 0.916=C2
> > 0.968=C2
> >
> > 1.019
> >
> > =C2 20=C2 1.019=C2 1.071
> >
> > 1.122=C2 1.174=C2
> >
> > 1.226=C2 1.277=C2 1.329=C2 1.381=C2 1.433=C2
> > 1.485=C2
> >
> > 1.537
> >
> > =C2 30=C2 1.537=C2 1.589=C2 1.641=C2 1.693=C2
> >
> > 1.745=C2 1.797=C2 1.849=C2 1.902=C2 1.954=C2
> > 2.006=C2
> >
> > 2.059
> >
> > =C2 40=C2 2.059=C2 2.111=C2 2.164=C2 2.216=C2
> >
> > 2.269=C2 2.322=C2 2.374=C2 2.427=C2 2.480=C2
> > 2.532=C2
> >
> > 2.585
> >
> > =C2
> >
> > =C2 50=C2 2.585=C2 2.638=C2 2.691=C2 2.744=C2
> >
> > 2.797=C2 2.850=C2 2.903=C2 2.956=C2 3.009=C2
> > 3.062=C2
> >
> > 3.116
> >
> > =C2 60=C2 3.116=C2 3.169=C2 3.222=C2 3.275=C2
> >
> > 3.329=C2 3.382=C2 3.436=C2 3.489=C2 3.543=C2
> > 3.596=C2
> >
> > 3.650
> >
> > =C2 70=C2 3.650=C2 3.703=C2 3.757=C2 3.810=C2
> >
> > 3.864=C2 3.918=C2 3.971=C2 4.025=C2 4.079=C2
> > 4.133=C2
> >
> > 4.187
> >
> > =C2 80=C2 4.187=C2 4.240=C2 4.294=C2 4.348=C2
> >
> > 4.402=C2 4.456=C2 4.510=C2 4.564=C2 4.618=C2
> > 4.672=C2
> >
> > 4.726
> >
> > =C2 90=C2 4.726=C2 4.781=C2 4.835=C2 4.889=C2
> >
> > 4.943=C2 4.997=C2 5.052=C2 5.106=C2 5.160=C2
> > 5.215=C2
> >
> > 5.269
> >
> > =C2
> >
> > =C2 100=C2 5.269=C2 5.323=C2 5.378=C2 5.432=C2
> >
> > 5.487=C2 5.541=C2 5.595=C2 5.650=C2 5.705=C2
> > 5.759=C2
> >
> > 5.814
> >
> > =C2 110=C2 5.814=C2 5.868=C2 5.923=C2 5.977=C2
> >
> > 6.032=C2 6.087=C2 6.141=C2 6.196=C2 6.251=C2
> > 6.306=C2
> >
> > 6.360
> >
> > =C2 120=C2 6.360=C2 6.415=C2 6.470=C2 6.525=C2
> >
> > 6.579=C2 6.634=C2 6.689=C2 6.744=C2 6.799=C2
> > 6.854=C2
> >
> > 6.909
> >
> > =C2 130=C2 6.909=C2 6.964=C2 7.019=C2 7.074=C2
> >
> > 7.129=C2 7.184=C2 7.239=C2 7.294=C2 7.349=C2
> > 7.404=C2
> >
> > 7.459
> >
> > =C2 140=C2 7.4590 7.514=C2 7.569=C2 7.624=C2
> >
> > 7.679=C2 7.734=C2 7.789=C2 7.844=C2 7.900=C2
> > 7.955=C2
> >
> > 8.010
> >
> > =C2
> >
> > =C2 150=C2 8.010=C2 8.065=C2 8.120=C2 8.175=C2
> >
> > 8.231=C2 8.286=C2 8.341=C2 8.396=C2 8.452=C2
> > 8.507=C2
> >
> > 8.562
> >
> > =C2 160=C2 8.562=C2 8.618=C2 8.673=C2 8.728=C2
> >
> > 8.783=C2 8.839=C2 8.894=C2 8.949=C2 9.005=C2
> > 9.060=C2
> >
> > 9.115
> >
> > =C2 170=C2 9.115=C2 9.171=C2 9.226=C2 9.282=C2
> >
> > 9.337=C2 9.392=C2 9.448=C2 9.503=C2 9.559=C2
> > 9.614=C2
> >
> > 9.669
> >
> > =C2 180=C2 9.669=C2 9.725=C2 9.780=C2 9.836=C2
> >
> > 9.891=C2 9.947 10.002 10.057 10.113 10.168 10.224
> >
> > =C2 190 10.224 10.279 10.335 10.390 10.446 10.501 10.557 10.612 10.66
8
> >
> > 10.723 10.779
> >
> > =C2
> >
> > =C2 200 10.779 10.834 10.890 10.945 11.001 11.056 11.112 11.167 11.22
3
> >
> > 11.278 11.334
> >
> > =C2 210 11.334 11.389 11.445 11.501 11.556 11.612 11.667 11.723 11.77
8
> >
> > 11.834 11.889
> >
> > =C2 220 11.889 11.945 12.000 12.056 12.111 12.167 12.222 12.278 12.33
4
> >
> > 12.389 12.445
> >
> > =C2 230 12.445 12.500 12.556 12.611 12.667 12.722 12.778 12.833 12.88
9
> >
> > 12.944 13.000
> >
> > =C2 240 13.000 13.056 13.111 13.167 13.222 13.278 13.333 13.389 13.44
4
> >
> > 13.500 13.555
> >
> > =C2
> >
> > =C2 250 13.555 13.611 13.666 13.722 13.777 13.833 13.888 13.944 13.99
9
> >
> > 14.055 14.110
> >
> > =C2 260 14.110 14.166 14.221 14.277 14.332 14.388 14.443 14.499 14.55
4
> >
> > 14.609 14.665
> >
> > =C2 270 14.665 14.720 14.776 14.831 14.887 14.942 14.998 15.053 15.10
9
> >
> > 15.164 15.219
> >
> > =C2 280 15.219 15.275 15.330 15.386 15.441 15.496 15.552 15.607 15.66
3
> >
> > 15.718 15.773
> >
> > =C2 290 15.773 15.829 15.884 15.940 15.995 16.050 16.106 16.161 16.
> >
> > 216
> >
> > 16.272 16.327
> >
> >
> > or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
> >
> > p://forums.matronics.com
> >
> > ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.
> > ?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc
> > %3D6
> > 68072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62"> See yours in just 2
> > easy steps!
> >
> >
> > href="
> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> > ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> >
> > href="
> > http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> >
> >
> > href="
> > http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> > ">http://www.matronics.com/c
> >
> >
> > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://
> > www.m
> > atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> > www.matronics.com/c
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> > -
> > 3/28/2009 7:16 AM
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> > ---
> > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
> >
> >
> > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://
> > www.m
> > atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> > www.matronics.com/c
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> > -----
> >
> >
> > Checked by AVG.
> > 3/28/2009 7:16 AM
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 2
> > _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 07:21:51 AM PST US
> > From: Thomas Campbell <airman@appledumplings.com>
> > Subject: TeamGrumman-List: EI vs JPI
> >
> >
> > #1 you guys really need to learn how to cut the uneeded part of the
> > original message when you reply. It takes 10 seconds. I know at
> > least one
> > of you guys is stubborn because of old GG issues. But man I have
> > tried to
> > read this forum for some time and it is quite annoying. But on a day
> > like
> > today where many do it .. it is not just annoying it is unbearable and
> > unreadable.
> >
> > With that said. I recently installed a JPI EDM 700 I previously had
> > an
> > alcor EGT only. I am seeing 450 on the back cylinders and
> > 380-400 on the front sometimes in cruise if I lean
> > aggresively.(I have not seen it get higher in climb) Even with
> > keeping it
> > a bit rich I run 430 on the back.
> >
> > My history. Atlanta=2CGa AA5b 1976 10 years 450 SMOH. Good compressions
> > all 74 or higher last 3 annuals with one exception of a 72. Had high
> > oil
> > temps(1-2 needle widths below redline in summer) and put new baffle
> > seal
> > and sealed some seams in the side baffles. I still
> > wonder about the baffle sheets on the bottom. It doesnt fit well
> > next to
> > the case in the back bottom. Anyway we checked the gauge and
> > vernatherm
> > and I gave up and got a bigger cooler. Which helped=2C now 200-210.
> > After all this I put in the JPI and get the above temps. I have not
> > gone
> > back and had someone check to see if the ground was installed
> > correctly. I
> > will do this soon. My current A&P also made a comment about the JPI.
> > Saying he has had a few people install them and get so distraught that
> > they seel theri airplanes or do overhaul early. He seems less
> > concerned.
> > And he has looked for any overheat indicators.
> > I personly have been running it a bit rich because until I am
> > assured it
> > is instrumentation It just makes me nervous.
> >
> > Thomas
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 3
> > _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 07:48:50 AM PST US
> > From: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: EI vs JPI
> >
> >
> >> #1 you guys really need to learn how to cut the uneeded part of the
> >> original message when you reply.
> >
> > You are so right. I do it on the GG but have been guilty of not
> > doing it
> > here.
> >
> > Cliff
> >
> >
> > --
> > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
> >
> > The Professional version does not have this message
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 4
> > _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 09:42:54 AM PST US
> > From: "923te" <923te@att.net>
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: reciting thread posts
> >
> > I began leaving in all the reference posts because it made it easy for
> > me to forward the thread to someone interested but not on the list.
> > One
> > copy in one post and he has the whole thread to date.
> >
> > I don't understand why you would be annoyed. The newest post is the
> > first at the top. If you aren't interested in the older post don't
> > read
> > further.
> >
> > Why be annoyed. I don't get why it annoyes??
> > ned
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Thomas Campbell
> > To: TeamGrumman-List Digest Server
> > Sent: Monday=2C March 30=2C 2009 11:12 AM
> > Subject: TeamGrumman-List: EI vs JPI
> >
> >
> > <airman@appledumplings.com>
> >
> > #1 you guys really need to learn how to cut the uneeded part of the
> > original message when you reply. It takes 10 seconds. I know at least
> > one
> > of you guys is stubborn because of old GG issues. But man I have
> > tried
> > to
> > read this forum for some time and it is quite annoying. But on a day
> > like
> > today where many do it .. it is not just annoying it is unbearable
> > and
> > unreadable.
> >
> > With that said. I recently installed a JPI EDM 700 I previously had
> > an
> > alcor EGT only. I am seeing 450 on the back cylinders and
> > 380-400 on the front sometimes in cruise if I lean
> > aggresively.(I have not seen it get higher in climb) Even with
> > keeping
> > it
> > a bit rich I run 430 on the back.
> >
> > My history. Atlanta=2CGa AA5b 1976 10 years 450 SMOH. Good compressions
> > all 74 or higher last 3 annuals with one exception of a 72. Had high
> > oil
> > temps(1-2 needle widths below redline in summer) and put new baffle
> > seal
> > and sealed some seams in the side baffles. I still
> > wonder about the baffle sheets on the bottom. It doesnt fit well next
> > to
> > the case in the back bottom. Anyway we checked the gauge and
> > vernatherm
> > and I gave up and got a bigger cooler. Which helped=2C now 200-210.
> > After all this I put in the JPI and get the above temps. I have not
> > gone
> > back and had someone check to see if the ground was installed
> > correctly. I
> > will do this soon. My current A&P also made a comment about the JPI.
> > Saying he has had a few people install them and get so distraught
> > that
> > they seel theri airplanes or do overhaul early. He seems less
> > concerned.
> > And he has looked for any overheat indicators.
> > I personly have been running it a bit rich because until I am assured
> > it
> > is instrumentation It just makes me nervous.
> >
> > Thomas
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 5
> > _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 10:27:18 AM PST US
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> > From: teamgrumman@aol.com
> >
> >
> > Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two
> > different styles of EI probes=2C bayonet and standard P-100=2C that he
> > tested an
> > d
> > found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large
> > differences in
> >
> > temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with
> > the fixed
> >
> > probe.=C2- And all the accusations=2C or implications at least=2C are
> > that the
> >
> > fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a
> > real
> > possibility that it could be due to something completely
> > different.
> >
> >
> > =C2-
> >
> >
> > Cliff
> >
> >
> > Finally=2C Cliff=2C you hit the nail on the head. =C2-I agree. =C2-
There
> > is
> > a real possibility there is something going on that could account
> > for the di
> > fferences in temperatures. =C2-I doubt=2C seriously=2C that it is jus
t
> > the pro
> > bes.
> >
> >
> > And. =C2-It has nothing to do with a recent change in vendors. =C2-
I
> > fir
> > st noticed this difference around 1995 when I installed my first JPI
> > 700.
> > =C2-
> >
> >
> > And. =C2-It isn't just my plane. =C2-I installed a JPI 700 in one
> > Comanc
> > he and a JPI 800 in another Comanche in place of previously
> > installed EI uni
> > ts. =C2-Both owners came back saying their engines were running hot.
> > =C2
> > -One owner=2C the 700=2C bought another EI and had me put it in instead
.
> > =C2
> > -The other owner was willing to accept the higher readings.
> >
> >
> > Gil. =C2-Just how many grounds is enough? =C2-Are you concerned
> > about gr
> > ound loops? =C2-I've run the ground to a common avionics ground AND
> > to the
> > ground on the engine from the avionics ground. A
> > 0No change. =C2-I've tried just the avionics ground. =C2-I've tried
> > just
> > the engine ground. =C2-No change. =C2-
> >
> >
> > Like I wrote in the STAR=2C the temps start out the same before start-
> > up. =C2
> > -The JPI temps rise faster and to a higher reading than the EI temps.
> >
> >
> > And. =C2-There is no way to know the actual test set up used by
> > Lycoming.
> > =C2-
> >
> >
> > I have an old Gem in a box somewhere. =C2-It has no digital readout.
> > =C2
> > -Gil=2C if yours has no digital readout=2C with 25 degree per bar
> > accuracy=2C ho
> > w do you know what the temperature is? =C2-
> >
> >
> > And. Speculation: =C2-I would expect that the makers of these
> > analyzers to
> > ok into consideration various millivolt differences. =C2-If they saw
> > diffe
> > rences of 3 degrees=2C I doubt they cared.
> >
> >
> > And. =C2-If this had only happened to one installation=2C then I woul
d
> > look
> > at the installation. =C2-It is a universal experience that the JPI
> > reads h
> > igher. =C2-
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
> > Sent: Sun=2C 29 Mar 2009 7:35 pm
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >
> >
> > Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two
> > different styles of EI probes=2C bayonet and standard P-100=2C that he
> > tested an
> > d
> > found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large
> > differences in
> >
> > temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with
> > the fixed
> >
> > probe.=C2- And all the accusations=2C or implications at least=2C are
> > that the
> > =0
> > Afixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is
> > a real
> >
> > possibility that it could be due to something completely
> > different.
> >
> >
> > =C2-
> >
> >
> > Cliff
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> > From:
> > Gil
> > Alexander
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent: Sunday=2C March 29=2C 2009 7:13
> > PM
> >
> >
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs
> > JPI
> >
> >
> > Ned... I believe the GG post you refer to still references
> > Gary's EI/JPI measurements....:^)
> >
> > He just says below that the EI
> > non-bayonet probes read lower - which does not seem to be in
> > dispute....:^)
> >
> > And do you really think Lycoming used a non-MIL-Spec
> > probe=2C especially in the 60's=2C for certification?=C2- I vote for
> > probes
> > that
> > touch the cylinder.
> >
> > gil A
> >
> > At 07:05 PM 3/29/2009=2C you wrote:
> >
> >
> > I started this thread because of similar
> > thread that was started on the GG. I understood one poster to say
> > that h
> > e
> > too had experienced higher readings with JPI type probes that
> > actually t
> > ouch
> > the thermowell. He had both in his Cheetah and found that the
> > probes tha
> > t
> > touch the head actually give a higher reading.
> > =C2-
> > So in answer to Gil's post it appears that
> > others have noted the diffenece in temp readings besides
> > Gary.
> > =C2-
> > Someone at
> > Lycoming needs to answer this question=2C at least the question of
> > the typ
> > e of
> > probe they used. Right now we are just sp
> > eculating on what type of probe
> > they used.
> > =C2-
> > Ned
> > =C2-
> > Here is the post I refer
> > to:
> > =C2-
> > =C2-
> > -----
> > Original Message -----
> > From: John Horton
> > Sent: Tuesday=2C
> > March 24=2C 2009 9:19 PM
> > Subject: RE: Tiger outlet ramps - More Info
> > Req.
> >
> > Dave=2C
> > I would direct you to look at
> > http://www.bondline.org/wiki/Lower_Cowling_Split
> > for
> > info about reworking the exit ramps.=C2- That link will only
> > provide
> > info
> > about
> > the metal exit ramps but that's half the
> > options.
> >
> > When you mention that your temps are "warm" be sure to
> > review the GG archives
> > about JPI instrumentation vs EI instrumentation.
> > There are differences in
> > probe
> > design that make JPI read higher that
> > EI in what should be the same cylinder.
> > So if you have JP CHT and think
> > your running "warm" you might be just fine if
> > you had EI CHT.=C2-
> > Theres a good bit of reading in the archives on that
> > topic.
> > My
> > consensus after reviewing (and I might still have it wrong)
> > is that JP CHT
> > reads
> > hotter than EI due to the fact that the JP CHT
> > probe actually is spring
> > loaded
> > to touch the cyl head. The EI CHT
> > probe screws into a space in the cyl head.
> > I
> > have had both in my plane
> > (Cheetah) and can verify that fact. The probes are
> > different and the JP
> > touches the head and reads hotter.
> >
> > So if you have=C2- J
> > P CHT gauge
> > and it reads 420 in climb your most likely fine.
> > (Assuming the temp goes
> > down when you level out) The same plane may well read
> > 385 with a EI CHT
> > and it is fine also. Be sure to know your temp source (EI
> > or
> > JP) and
> > read the archives to get a feel for the differences before you go
> > and
> > rework your exit ramps. They might be fine.
> >
> > I recently
> > reworked my exit ramps on my Cheetah due to a "warmer" than
> > I'd
> > like
> > #4 cyl=2C cracks in my metal exit ramps and a newly minted
> > A&P ticket that
> > allowed
> > me to do it. I have only flown it once and
> > the results looked promising.
> > Tommorrow I hope to gather more flight
> > data. I currently have a JP CHT/EGT
> > and
> > in climb prior to the ramp
> > work could occasionally hit 450 (my and Lycomings
> > redline).=C2- I could
> > easily get into the 430's in climb and have to nose over
> > and
> > or
> > throttle back to arrest the CHT rise.=C2- When I had the EI CHT
> > gauge
> > I
> > never
> > saw anything above 390.
> >
> > After reworking the ramps I do
> > expect to go faster=2C climb higher and do it
> > all
> > with 1/3 flaps
> > deployed for less gallons per hour. I just had to throw that
> > in
> > in
> > case there aren't enough emotionally loaded topics to write
> > about.
> >
> > John Horton
> > HC Cheetah
> > Sensenich Prop
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =C2------ Original Message -----
> >
> >
> > =0
> > AFrom: Gil Alexander
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent: Sunday=2C March 29=2C 2009 8:41 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Gary=2C
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > How many STCs have you installed with poor/bad/wrong
> > instructions?=C2- And the CHT/EGT monitor STCs are quite
> > "generic" n
> > ot
> > really airframe specific.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > My latest one was my Plane Power voltage regulator.=C2- Works fine=2C
> > but needed spacers to clear the "bumps" on the fire wall -
> > hardly a
> > drop-in exact replacement for the non flat bottom mechanical
> > regulator
> > -
> > and no mention in the STC instructions.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your plane seems to be the only test case reporting the problem.=C2-
> > I'm happy with the Insight GEM in mine with it's probes that
> > touch the
> >
> > thermowell bottom like I believe the Lycoming test bayonet
> > probes did
> > during their certification.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > As an electronics engineer=2C I know I would not design sensitive
> > millivolts equipment using grounded sensors.... but that's just
> > me....
> > and
> > my stuff is (or has been) working in military aircraft and space
> > vehicles....:^)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > gil A
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > PS ...I like the GEM unit=2C but I have the "bars only" version - I
> > would prefer the version with numbe
> > rs - a probable future upgrade.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > PPS=C2- Sorry about the formatting of the mV chart in my previous
> > e-mail
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Here is an alternate link to another table of National Institute of
> > Standards and Technology output voltages from a Type J
> > thermocouple
> > -
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This shows how small the DC voltages are that we are
> > measuring.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 05:40 PM 3/29/2009=2C you wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we
> > are dealing with fractions of milliVolts=2C I would
> > personally vote
> > for
> > grounding issues.=C3=82
> >
> >
> >
> > MY PLANE? =C3=82 Ok=2C maybe your right. =C3=82 The grounds in
installed
> > according to the STC were done wrong. =C3=82 Maybe the probes
> > ground
> > ing
> > against brand new cylinders had corrosion built up in them.
> > =C3=82
> > =C2-
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Maybe planes experiencing CHT readings higher on a JPI than on an EI
> > also followed the installation instructions.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > How about you doing your own testing and report your own
> > results?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
> >
> > =2
> > 0
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent: Sun=2C 29 Mar 2009 12:03 pm
> >
> >
> >
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This is only true if=2C and it's a big IF=2C the temperatures
> > displayed on todays instrumentation "WOULD" have displayed
> > the sam
> > e
> > temperatures as those recorded by Lycoming technicians=C3=83
> > =9A on the
> > instrumentation used by Lycoming. =C3=83=9A=C3=82=C2-
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Gary... I don't belief that is a big "IF"...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The electrical characteristics of a type J thermocouple have been
> > well known from long before WWII.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The electrical instrumentation bit has not changed over the years as
> > far as the basic thermocouple=2C especially when used in an
> > engine tes
> > t
> > cell.=C3=82=C2- I bet Lycoming had individual CHT meters
> > directly
> > connected
> > to the probes=2C none of this fancy digital switching=2C scanning
> > stuff....:^)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Today the probes and the interconnect may be different=2C but the a
> > type J thermocouple has always created the same amount of
> > voltage du
> > e to
> > physics.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we
> > are dealing with fractions of mil
> > liVolts=2C I would personally vote for
> > grounding issues.=C3=82=C2- You can see from the table below
> > that
> > 10
> > degrees Centigrade is about a 1/2 milliVolt change.=C3=82=C2-
> > Try
> > a direct
> > wire from GND on your EI gauge to the engine.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This is from Sandia labs...=C3=82=C2- gil A
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 ITS-90 Table for type J=C3=82=C2- thermocouple
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 =C3=82=C2=B0C=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82
> > =C3=82
> > =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> >
> >
> > 1=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 2=C3=
82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> > =C3
> > =82
> >
> >
> > 3=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 4=C3=
82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> > =C3
> > =82
> >
> >
> > 5=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 6=C3=
82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> > =C3
> > =82
> >
> >
> > 7=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 8=C3=
82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> > =C3
> > =82
> >
> >
> > 9=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 10
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> > =C3=82 =C3
> > =82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> > =C3=82
> > =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> >
> >
> > Thermoelectric Voltage in mV
> >
> >
> > =C3=82
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82=C2- 0.000=C3=82=C2- 0.0
50=C3=82=C2- 0.101
> > =C3=82=C2- 0.151=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 0.202=C3=82=C2- 0.253=C3=82=C2- 0.303=C3=82=C2- 0.354
=C3=82=C2- 0.40
> > 5=C3=82=C2-
> > 0.456=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 0.507
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 10=C3=82=C2- 0.507=C3=82=C2- 0.558=C3=
82=C2- 0.609=C3=82
> > =C2- 0.660=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 0.711=C3=82=C2- 0.762=C3=82=C2- 0.814=C3=82=C2- 0.865
2=C2- 0.916=C3
> > =82=C2-
> > 0.968=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 1.019
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 20=C3=82=C2- 1.019=C3=82=C2- 1.071
> >
> >
> > =C2-1.122=C3=82=C2- 1.174=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 1.226=C3=82=C2- 1.277=C3=82=C2- 1.329=C3=82=C2- 1.381
=C3=82=C2- 1.43
> > 3=C3=82=C2-
> > 1.485=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 1.537
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 30=C3=82=C2- 1.537=C3=82=C2- 1.589=C3=
82=C2- 1.641=C3=82
> > =C2- 1.693=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 1.745=C3=82=C2- 1.797=C3=82=C2- 1.849=C3=82=C2- 1.902
=C3=82=C2- 1.95
> > 4=C3=82=C2-
> > 2.006=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 2.059
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 40=C3=82=C2- 2.059=C3=82=C2- 2.111=C3=
82=C2- 2.164=C3=82
> > =C2- 2.216=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 2.269=C3=82=C2- 2.322=C3=82=C2- 2.374=C3=82=C2- 2.427
=C3=82=C2- 2.48
> > 0=C3=82=C2-
> > 2.532=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 2.585
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2-
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 50=C3=82=C2- 2.585=C3=82=C2- 2.638=C3=
82=C2- 2.691=C3=82
> > =C2- 2.744=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 2.797=C3=82=C2- 2.850=C3=82=C2- 2.903=C3=82=C2- 2.956
=C3=82=C2- 3.00
> > 9=C3=82=C2-
> > 3.062=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 3.116
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 60=C3=82=C2- 3.116=C3=82=C2- 3.169=C3=
82=C2- 3.222=C3=82
> > =C2- 3.275=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 3.329=C3=82=C2- 3.382=C3=82=C2- 3.436=C3=82=C2- 3.489
=C3=82=C2- 3.54
> > 3=C3=82=C2-
> > 3.596=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 3.650
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 70=C3=82=C2- 3.650=C3=82=C2- 3.703=C3=
82=C2- 3.757=C3=82
> > =C2- 3.810=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 3.864=C3=82=C2- 3.918=C3=82=C2- 3.971=C3=82=C2- 4.025
=C3=82=C2- 4.07
> > 9=C3=82=C2-
> > 4.133=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 4.187
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 80=C3=82=C2- 4.187=C3=82=C2- 4.240=C3=
82=C2- 4.294=C3=82
> > =C2- 4.348=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 4.402=C3=82=C2- 4.456=C3=82=C2- 4.510=C3=82=C2- 4.564
=C3=82=C2- 4.61
> > 8=C3=82=C2-
> > 4.672=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 4.726
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 90=C3=82=C2- 4.726=C3=82=C2- 4.781=C3=
82=C2- 4.835=C3=82
> > =C2- 4.8
> > 89=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 4.943=C3=82=C2- 4.997=C3=82=C2- 5.052=C3=82=C2- 5.106
=C3=82=C2- 5.16
> > 0=C3=82=C2-
> > 5.215=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 5.269
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2-
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 100=C3=82=C2- 5.269=C3=82=C2- 5.323=C3=82=
C2- 5.378=C3=82=C2
> > - 5.432=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 5.487=C3=82=C2- 5.541=C3=82=C2- 5.595=C3=82=C2- 5.650
=C3=82=C2- 5.70
> > 5=C3=82=C2-
> > 5.759=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 5.814
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 110=C3=82=C2- 5.814=C3=82=C2- 5.868=C3=82=
C2- 5.923=C3=82=C2
> > - 5.977=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 6.032=C3=82=C2- 6.087=C3=82=C2- 6.141=C3=82=C2- 6.196
=C3=82=C2- 6.25
> > 1=C3=82=C2-
> > 6.306=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 6.360
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 120=C3=82=C2- 6.360=C3=82=C2- 6.415=C3=82=
C2- 6.470=C3=82=C2
> > - 6.525=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 6.579=C3=82=C2- 6.634=C3=82=C2- 6.689=C3=82=C2- 6.744
=C3=82=C2- 6.79
> > 9=C3=82=C2-
> > 6.854=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 6.909
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 130=C3=82=C2- 6.909=C3=82=C2- 6.964=C3=82=
C2- 7.019=C3=82=C2
> > - 7.074=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 7.129=C3=82=C2- 7.184=C3=82=C2- 7.239=C3=82=C2- 7.294
=C3=82=C2- 7.34
> > 9=C3=82=C2-
> > 7.404=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 7.459
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 140=C3=82=C2- 7.4590 7.514=C3=82=C2- 7.569=C3
=82=C2- 7.624=C3
> > =82
> >
> >
> > 7.679=C3=82=C2- 7.734=C3=82=C2- 7.789=C3=82=C2- 7.844
=C3=82=C2- 7.90
> > 0=C3=82=C2-
> > 7.955=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 8.010
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2-
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 150=C3=82=C2- 8.010=C3=82=C2- 8.065=C3=82=
C2- 8.120=C3=82=C2
> > - 8.175=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 8.231=C3=82=C2- 8.286=C3=82=C2- 8.341=C3=82=C2- 8.396
=C3=82=C2- 8.45
> > 2=C3=82=C2-
> > 8.507=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 8.562
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 160=C3=82=C2- 8.562=C3=82=C2- 8.618=C3=82=
C2- 8.673=C3=82=C2
> > - 8.728=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 8.783=C3=82=C2- 8.839=C3=82=C2- 8.894=C3=82=C2- 8.949
=C3=82=C2- 9.00
> > 5=C3=82=C2-
> > 9.060=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 9.115
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 170=C3=82=C2- 9
> > ..115=C3=82=C2- 9.171=C3=82=C2- 9.226=C3=82=C2- 9.282
=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 9.337=C3=82=C2- 9.392=C3=82=C2- 9.448=C3=82=C2- 9.503
=C3=82=C2- 9.55
> > 9=C3=82=C2-
> > 9.614=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 9.669
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 180=C3=82=C2- 9.669=C3=82=C2- 9.725=C3=82=
C2- 9.780=C3=82=C2
> > - 9.836=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 9.891=C3=82=C2- 9.947 10.002 10.057 10.113 10.168 10.224
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 190 10.224 10.279 10.335 10.390 10.446 10.501 10.557 10.612
> > 10.668
> >
> >
> > 10.723 10.779
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2-
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 200 10.779 10.834 10.890 10.945 11.001 11.056 11.112 11.167
> > 11.223
> >
> >
> > 11.278 11.334
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 210 11.334 11.389 11.445 11.501 11.556 11.612 11.667 11.723
> > 11.778
> >
> >
> > 11.834 11.889
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 220 11.889 11.945 12.000 12.056 12.111 12.167 12.222 12.278
> > 12.334
> >
> >
> > 12.389 12.445
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 230 12.445 12.500 12.556 12.611 12.667 12.722 12.778 12.833
> > 12.889
> >
> >
> > 12.944 13.000
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 240 13.000 13.056 13.111 13.167 13.222 13.278 13.333 13.389
> > 13.444
> >
> >
> > 13.500 13.555
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2-
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 250 13.555 13.611 13.666 13.722 13.777 13.833 13.888 13.944
> > 13.999
> >
> >
> > 14.055 14.110
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 260 14.110 14.166 14.221 14.277 14.332 14.388 14.443 14.499
> > 14.554
> >
> >
> > 14.609 14.665
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 270 14.665 14.720 14.776 14.831 14.887 14.942 14.998 15.053
> > 15.109
> >
> >
> > 15.164 15.219
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 280 15.219 15.275 15.330 15.386 15.441 15.496 15.552 15.607
> > 15.663
> >
> >
> > 15.718 15.773
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 290 15.773 15.829 15.884 15.940 15.995 16.050 16.106 16.161
16.
> >
> >
> > 216
> >
> >
> > 16.272 16.327
> >
> >
> > or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/
> > Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> >
> >
> > p://forums.matronics.com
> >
> >
> > ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.
> > ?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx
> > %3Fs
> > c%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62">
> > See yours in just 2 easy steps!
> >
> >
> > href="
> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> > ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> >
> >
> > href="
> > http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> >
> >
> > href="
> > http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> > ">http://www.matronics.com/c
> >
> >
> > =====3D===
> >
> >
> > 3/28/2009 7:16 AM
> >
> >
> > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
> >
> >
> > 0 - List Contribution Web Site -
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 6
> > _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 10:46:44 AM PST US
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> > From: teamgrumman@aol.com
> >
> > Just to add to the mix. =C2-
> >
> >
> > On the flight tests=2C we also measured Oil Temp and OAT with the EI.
> > =C2-Oi
> > l temp was measured at the oil filter adaptor and OAT was a probe
> > stuck out
> > the canopy at the top. =C2-
> >
> >
> > Oil temp on the EI was within 5 degrees of the oil temp measured by
> > the JPI
> > in the front right galley plug.
> >
> >
> > Oat on the JPI was slightly colder=2C 1 to 4 degrees=2C with the JPI
> > probed loca
> > ted under the left wing at the most forward inspection cover.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: teamgrumman@aol.com
> > Sent: Mon=2C 30 Mar 2009 10:23 am
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >
> >
> > Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two
> > different styles of EI probes=2C bayonet and standard P-100=2C that he
> > tested an
> > d
> > found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large
> > differences in
> >
> > temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with
> > the fixed
> >
> > probe.=C2- And all the accusations=2C or implications at least=2C are
> > that the
> >
> > fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a
> > real
> > possibility that it could be due to something completely
> > different.
> >
> >
> > =C2-
> >
> >
> > Cliff
> >
> >
> > Finally=2C Cliff=2C you hit the nail on the head. =C2-I agree. =C2-
There
> > is
> > a real possibility there is something going on that could account
> > for the di
> > fferences in temperatures. =C2-I doubt=2C seriously=2C that it is jus
t
> > the pro
> > bes.
> >
> >
> > And. =C2-It has nothing to do with
> > a recent change in vendors. =C2-I first noticed this difference
> > around 19
> > 95 when I installed my first JPI 700. =C2-
> >
> >
> > And. =C2-It isn't just my plane. =C2-I installed a JPI 700 in one
> > Comanc
> > he and a JPI 800 in another Comanche in place of previously
> > installed EI uni
> > ts. =C2-Both owners came back saying their engines were running hot.
> > =C2
> > -One owner=2C the 700=2C bought another EI and had me put it in instead
.
> > =C2
> > -The other owner was willing to accept th
> > e higher readings.
> >
> >
> > Gil. =C2-Just how many grounds is enough? =C2-Are you concerned
> > about gr
> > ound loops? =C2-I've run the ground to a common avionics ground AND
> > to the
> > ground on the engine from the avionics ground. =C2-No change. =C2-I
've
> > tried just the avionics ground. =C2-I've tried just the engine ground
.
> > =C2-No change. =C2-
> >
> >
> > Like I wrote in the STAR=2C the temps start out the same before start-
> > up. =C2
> > -The JPI temps rise faster and to a higher reading than the EI temps.
> >
> >
> > And. =C2-There is no way to know the actual test set up used by
> > Lycoming.
> > =C2-
> >
> >
> > I have an old Gem in a box somewhere. =C2-It has no digital readout.
> > =C2
> > -Gil=2C if yours has no digital readout=2C with 25 degree per bar
> > accuracy=2C ho
> > w do you know what the temperature is? =C2-
> >
> >
> > And. Speculation: =C2-I would expect that the makers of these
> > analyzers to
> > ok into consideration various millivolt differences. =C2-If they saw
> > diffe
> > rences of 3 degrees=2C I
> > doubt they cared.
> >
> >
> > And. =C2-If this had only happened to one installation=2C then I woul
d
> > look
> > at the installation. =C2-It is a universal experience that the JPI
> > reads h
> > igher. =C2-
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
> >
> >
> > Sent: Sun=2C 29 Mar 2009 7:35 pm
> >
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >
> >
> > Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two
> > different styles of EI probes=2C bayonet and standard P-100=2C that he
> > tested an
> > d
> > found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large
> > differences in
> >
> > temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with
> > the fixed
> >
> > probe.=C2- And all the accusations=2C or implications at least=2C are
> > that the
> >
> > fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a
> > real
> > possibility that it could be due to something completely
> > different.
> >
> >
> > =C2-
> >
> >
> > Cliff
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> > From:
> > Gil
> > Alexander
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent: Sunday=2C March 29=2C 2009 7:13
> > PM
> >
> >
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs
> > JPI
> >
> >
> > Ned... I believe the GG post you refer to still references
> >
> > Gary's EI/JPI measurements....:^)
> >
> >
> > He just says below that the EI
> > non-bayonet probes read lower - which does not seem to be in
> > dispute....:^)
> >
> >
> > And do yo
> > u really think Lycoming used a non-MIL-Spec
> > probe=2C especially in the 60's=2C for certification?=C2- I vote for
> > probes
> > that
> > touch the cylinder.
> >
> >
> > gil A
> >
> >
> > At 07:05 PM 3/29/2009=2C you wrote:
> >
> >
> > I started this thread because of similar
> > thread that was started on the GG. I understood one poster to say
> > that h
> > e
> > too had experienced higher readings with JPI type probes that
> > actually t
> > ouch
> > the thermowell. He had both in his Cheetah and found that the
> > probes tha
> > t
> > touch the head actually give a higher reading.
> >
> > =C2-
> >
> > So in answer to Gil's post it appears that
> > others have noted the diffenece in temp readings besides
> > Gary.
> >
> > =C2-
> >
> > Someone at
> > Lycoming needs to answer this question=2C at least the question of
> > the typ
> > e of
> > probe they used. Right now we are just speculating on what type
> > of probe
> >
> > they used.
> >
> > =C2-
> >
> > Ned
> >
> > =C2-
> >
> > Here is the post I refer
> > to:
> >
> > =C2-
> >
> > =C2-
> >
> > -----
> > Original Message -----
> > From: John Horton
> >
> >
> > Sent: Tuesday=2C
> > March 24=2C 2009 9:19 PM
> >
> > Subject: RE: Tiger outlet ramps - More Info
> > Req.
> >
> >
> > Dave=2C
> >
> > I would direct you to look at
> >
> > http://www.bondline.org/wiki/Lower_Cowling_Split
> >
> > for
> > info about reworking the exit ramps.=C2- That link will only
> > provide
> > info
> >
> > about
> >
> > the metal exit ramps but that's half the
> > options.
> >
> >
> > When you mention
> > that your temps are "warm" be sure to
> > review the GG archives
> >
> > about JPI instrumentation vs EI instrumentation.
> > There are differences in
> >
> > probe
> >
> > design that make JPI read higher that
> > EI in what should be the same cylinder.
> >
> > So if you have JP CHT and think
> > your running "warm" you might be just fine if
> >
> > you had EI CHT.=C2-
> > Theres a good bit of reading in the archives on that
> > topic.
> >
> > My
> >
> > consensus after reviewing (and I might still have it wrong)
> > is that JP CHT
> >
> > reads
> >
> > hotter than EI due to the fact that the JP CHT
> > probe actually is spring
> >
> > loaded
> >
> > to touch the cyl head. The EI CHT
> > probe screws into a space in the cyl head.
> >
> > I
> >
> > have had both in my plane
> > (Cheetah) and can verify that fact. The pro
> > bes are
> >
> > different and the JP
> > touches the head and reads hotter.
> >
> >
> > So if you have=C2- JP CHT gauge
> > and it reads 420 in climb your most likely fine.
> >
> > (Assuming the temp goes
> > down when you level out) The same plane may well read
> >
> > 385 with a EI CHT
> > and it is fine also. Be sure to know your temp source (EI
> >
> > or
> >
> > JP) and
> > read the archives to get a feel for the differences before you go
> > and
> >
> > rework your exit ramps. They might be fine.
> >
> >
> > I recently
> > reworked my exit ramps on my Cheetah due to a "warmer" than
> > I'd
> >
> > like
> >
> > #4 cyl=2C cracks=2
> > 0in my metal exit ramps and a newly minted
> > A&P ticket that
> >
> > allowed
> >
> > me to do it. I have only flown it once and
> > the results looked promising.
> >
> > Tommorrow I hope to gather more flight
> > data. I currently have a JP CHT/EGT
> >
> > and
> >
> > in climb prior to the ramp
> > work could occasionally hit 450 (my and Lycomings
> >
> > redline).=C2- I could
> > easily get into the 430's in climb and have to nose over
> >
> > and
> >
> > or
> > throttle back to arrest the CHT rise.=C2- When I had the EI CHT
> > gauge
> > I
> > never
> >
> > saw anything above 390.
> >
> >
> > After reworking the ramps I do
> > expect to go faster=2C climb higher and do it
> >
> > all
> >
> > with 1/3 flaps
> > deployed for less gallons per hour. I just had to throw that
> >
> > in
> >
> > in
> > case there aren't
> > enough emotionally loaded topics to write
> > about.
> >
> >
> > John Horton
> >
> > HC Cheetah
> >
> > Sensenich Prop
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =C2------ Original Message -----
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Gil Alexander
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent: Sunday=2C March 29=2C 2009 8:41 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Gary=2C
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > How many STCs have you installed with poor/bad/wrong
> > instructions?=C2- And the CHT/EGT monitor STCs are quite
> > "generic" n
> > ot
> > really airframe specific.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > My lat
> > est one was my Plane Power voltage regulator.=C2- Works fine=2C
> > but needed spacers to clear the "bumps" on the fire wall -
> > hardly a
> > drop-in exact replacement for the non flat bottom mechanical
> > regulator
> > -
> > and no mention in the STC instructions.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your plane seems to be the only test case reporting the problem.=C2-
> > I'm happy with the Insight GEM in mine with it's probes that
> > touch the
> >
> > thermowell bottom like I believe the Lycoming test bayonet
> > probes did
> > during their certification.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > As an electronics engineer=2C I know I would not design sensitive
> > millivolts
> > equipment using grounded sensors.... but that's just me.... and
> > my stuff is (or has been) working in military aircraft and space
> > vehicles....:^)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > gil A
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > PS ...I like the GEM unit=2C but I have the "bars only" version - I
> > would prefer the version with numbers - a probable future
> > upgrade.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > PPS=C2- Sorry about the formatting of the mV chart in my previous
> > e-mail
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Here is an alternate link to another table of National Institute of
> > Standards and Technology output voltages from a Type J
> > thermocouple
> > -
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This shows h
> > ow small the DC voltages are that we are
> > measuring.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 05:40 PM 3/29/2009=2C you wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we
> > are dealing with fractions of milliVolts=2C I would
> > personally vote
> > for
> > grounding issues.=C3=82
> >
> >
> >
> > MY PLANE? =C3=82 Ok=2C maybe your right. =C3=82 The grounds in
installed
> > according to the STC were done wrong. =C3=82 Maybe the probes
> > ground
> > ing
> > 20 against brand new cylinders had corrosion built up in them.
> > =C3=82
> > =C2-
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Maybe planes experiencing CHT readings higher on a JPI than on an EI
> > also followed the installation instructions.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > How about you doing your own testing and report your own
> > results?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent: Sun=2C 29 Mar 2009 12:03 pm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This is only true if=2C and it's a big IF=2C the temperatures
> > displayed on todays instrumentation "WOULD" have displayed
> > the sam
> > e
> > =2
> > 0 temperatures as those recorded by Lycoming technicians=C3=83=9A
on
> > the
> > instrumentation used by Lycoming. =C3=83=9A=C3=82=C2-
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Gary... I don't belief that is a big "IF"...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The electrical characteristics of a type J thermocouple have been
> > well known from long before WWII.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The electrical instrument
> > ation bit has not changed over the years as
> > far as the basic thermocouple=2C especially when used in an
> > engine tes
> > t
> > cell.=C3=82=C2- I bet Lycoming had individual CHT meters
> > directly
> > connected
> > to the probes=2C none of this fancy digital switching=2C scanning
> > stuff....:^)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Today the probes and the interconnect may be different=2C but the a
> > type J thermocouple has always created the same amount of
> > voltage du
> > e to
> > physics.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we
> > are dealing with fractions of milliVolts=2C I would personally
> > vote fo
> > r
> > grounding issues.=C3=82=C2- You can see from the table below
> > that
> > 10
> > degrees Centigrade is about a 1/2 milliVolt change.=C3=82=C2-
> > Try
> > a direct
> > wire from GND on your EI gauge to the engine.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This is from Sandia labs...=C3=82=C2- gil A
> >
> > =0
> > A
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 ITS-90 Table for type J=C3=82=C2- thermocouple
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 =C3=82=C2=B0C=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82
> > =C3=82
> > =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> >
> >
> > 1=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 2=C3=
82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> > =C3
> > =82
> >
> >
> > 3=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 4=C3=
82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> > =C3
> > =82
> >
> >
> > 5=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 6=C3=
82 =C3=82=2
> > 0=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> >
> >
> > 7=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 8=C3=
82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> > =C3
> > =82
> >
> >
> > 9=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 10
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> > =C3=82 =C3
> > =82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> > =C3=82
> > =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> >
> >
> > Thermoelectric Voltage in mV
> >
> >
> > =C3=82
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82=C2- 0.000=C3=82=C2- 0.0
50=C3=82=C2- 0.101
> > =C3=82=C2- 0.151=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 0.202=C3=82=C2- 0.253=C3=82=C2- 0.303=C3=82=C2- 0.354
=C3=82=C2- 0.40
> > 5=C3=82=C2-
> > 0.456=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 0.507
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 10=C3=82=C2- 0.507=C3=82=C2- 0.558=C3=
82=C2- 0.609=C3=82
> > =C2- 0.660=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 0.711=C3=82=C2- 0.762=C3=82=C2- 0.814=C3=82=C2- 0.865
=C3=82=C2- 0.91
> > 6=C3=82=C2-
> > 0.968=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 1.019
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 20=C3=82=C2- 1.019=C3=82=C2- 1.071
> >
> >
> > =C2-1.122=C3=82=C2- 1.174=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 1.226=C3=82=C2- 1.277=C3=82=C2- 1.329=C3=82=C2- 1.381
=C3=82=C2- 1.43
> > 3=C3=82=C2-
> > 1.485=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 1.537
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 30=C3=82=C2- 1.537=C3=82=C2- 1.589=C3=
82=C2- 1.641=C3=82
> > =C2- 1.693=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 1.745=C
> > 3=C2- 1.797=C3=82=C2- 1.849=C3=82=C2- 1.902=C3=82=C
2- 1.954=C3=82
> > =C2-
> > 2.006=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 2.059
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 40=C3=82=C2- 2.059=C3=82=C2- 2.111=C3=
82=C2- 2.164=C3=82
> > =C2- 2.216=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 2.269=C3=82=C2- 2.322=C3=82=C2- 2.374=C3=82=C2- 2.427
=C3=82=C2- 2.48
> > 0=C3=82=C2-
> > 2.532=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 2.585
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2-
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 50=C3=82=C2- 2.585=C3=82=C2- 2.6382=C2-
2.691=C3=82=C2
> > - 2.744=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 2.797=C3=82=C2- 2.850=C3=82=C2- 2.903=C3=82=C2- 2.956
=C3=82=C2- 3.00
> > 9=C3=82=C2-
> > 3.062=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 3.116
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 60=C3=82=C2- 3.116=C3=82=C2- 3.169=C3=
82=C2- 3.222=C3=82
> > =C2- 3.275=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 3.329=C3=82=C2- 3.382=C3=82=C2- 3.436=C3=82=C2- 3.489
=C3=82=C2- 3.54
> > 3=C3=82=C2-
> > 3.596=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 3.650
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 70=C3=82=C2- 3.650=C3=82=C2- 3.703=C3=
82=C2- 3.757=C3=82
> > =C2- 3.810=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 3.864=C3=82=C2- 3.918=C3=82=C2- 3.971=C3=82=C2- 4.025
=C3=82=C2- 4.07
> > 9=C3=82=C2-
> > 4.133=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 4.187
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 80=C3=82=C2- 4.187=C3=82=C2- 4.240=C3=
82=C2- 4.294=C3=82
> > =C2- 4.348=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 4.402=C3=82=C2- 4.456=C3=82=C2- 4.510=C3=82=C2- 4.564
=C3=82=C2- 4.61
> > 8=C3=82=C2-
> > 4.672=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 4.726
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 90=C3=82=C2- 4.726=C3=82=C2- 4.781=C3=
82=C2- 4.835=C3=82
> > =C2- 4.889=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 4.943=C3=82=C2- 4.997=C3=82=C2- 5.052=C3=82=C2- 5.106
=C3=82=C2- 5.16
> > 0=C3=82=C2-
> > 5.215=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 5.269
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2-
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 100=C3=82=C2- 5.269=C3=82=C2- 5.323=C3=82=
C2- 5.378=C3=82=C2
> > - 5.432=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 5.487=C3=82=C2- 5.541=C3=82=C2- 5.595=C3=82=C2- 5.650
=C3=82=C2- 5.70
> > 5=C3=82=C2-
> > 5.759=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 5.814
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 110=C3=820 5.814=C3=82=C2- 5.868=C3=82=C2- 5
.923=C3=82=C2- 5.97
> > 7=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 6.032=C3=82=C2- 6.087=C3=82=C2- 6.141=C3=82=C2- 6.196
=C3=82=C2- 6.25
> > 1=C3=82=C2-
> > 6.306=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 6.360
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 120=C3=82=C2- 6.360=C3=82=C2- 6.415=C3=82=
C2- 6.470=C3=82=C2
> > - 6.525=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 6.579=C3=82=C2- 6.634=C3=82=C2- 6.689=C3=82=C2- 6.744
=C
> > 3=C2- 6.799=C3=82=C2-
> > 6.854=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 6.909
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 130=C3=82=C2- 6.909=C3=82=C2- 6.964=C3=82=
C2- 7.019=C3=82=C2
> > - 7.074=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 7.129=C3=82=C2- 7.184=C3=82=C2- 7.239=C3=82=C2- 7.294
=C3=82=C2- 7.34
> > 9=C3=82=C2-
> > 7.404=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 7.459
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 140=C3=82=C2- 7.4590 7.514=C3=82=C2- 7.569=C3
=82=C2- 7.624=C3
> > =82
> >
> >
> > 7.679=C3=82=C2- 7.734=C3=82=C2- 7.789=C3=82=C2- 7.844
=C3=82=C2- 7.90
> > 0=C3=82=C2-
> > 7.955=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 8.010
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2-
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 150=C3=82=C2- 8.010=C3=82=C2- 8.065=C3=82=
C2- 8.120=C3=82=C2
> > - 8.175=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 8.231=C3=82=C2- 8.286=C3=82=C2- 8.341=C3=82=C2- 8.396
=C3=82=C2- 8.45
> > 2=C3=82=C2-
> > 8.507=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 8.562
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 160=C3=82=C2- 8.562=C3=82=C2- 8.618=C3=82=
C2- 8.673=C3=82=C2
> > - 8.728=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 8.783=C3=82=C2- 8.839=C3=82=C2- 8.894=C3=82=C2- 8.949
=C3=82=C2- 9.00
> > 5=C3=82=C2-
> > 9.060=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 9.115
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 170=C3=82=C2- 9.115=C3=82=C2- 9.171=C3=82=
C2- 9.226=C3=82=C2
> > - 9.282=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 9.337=C3=82=C2- 9.392=C3=82=C2- 9.448=C3=82=C2- 9.503
=C3=82=C2- 9.55
> > 9=C3=82=C2-
> > 9.614=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 9.669
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 180=C3=82=C2- 9.669=C3=82=C2- 9.725=C3=82=
C2- 9.780=C3=82=C2
> > - 9.836=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 9.891=C3=82=C2- 9.947 10.002 10.057 10.113 10.168 10.224
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 190 10.224 10.279 10.335 1
> > 0.390 10.446 10.501 10.557 10.612 10.668
> >
> >
> > 10.723 10.779
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2-
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 200 10.779 10.834 10.890 10.945 11.001 11.056 11.112 11.167
> > 11.223
> >
> >
> > 11.278 11.334
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 210 11.334 11.389 11.445 11.501 11.556 11.612 11.667 11.723
> > 11.778
> >
> >
> > 11.834 11.889
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 220 11.889 11.945 12.000 12.056 12.111 12.167 12.222 12.278
> > 12.334
> >
> >
> > 12.389 12.445
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 230 12.445 12.500 12.556 12.611 12.667 12.722 12.778 12.833
> > 12.889
> >
> >
> > 12.944 13.000
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 240 13.000 13.056 13.111 13.167 13.222 13.278 13.333 13.389
> > 13.444
> >
> >
> > 13.500 13.555
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2-
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 250 13.555 13.611 13.666 13.722 13.777 13.833 13.888 13.944
> > 13.999
> >
> >
> > 14.055 14.110
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 260 14.110 14.166 14.221 14.277 14.332 14.388 14.443 14.499
> > 14.554
> >
> >
> > 14.609 14.665
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 270 14.665 14.720 14.776 14.831 14.887 14.942 14.998 15.053
> > 15.109
> >
> >
> > 15.164 15.219
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 280 15.219 15.275 15.330 15.386 15.441 15.496 15.552 15.607
> > 15.663
> >
> >
> > 15.718 15.773
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 290 15.773 15.829 15.884 15.940 15.995 16.050 16.106 16.161
16.
> >
> >
> > 216
> >
> >
> > 16.272 16.327
> >
> >
> > or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
> >
> >
> > p://forums.matronics.com
> >
> >
> > ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.
> > ?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx
> > %3Fs
> > c%3D668072%26hmp
> > gID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62">
> > See yours in just 2
> > easy steps!
> >
> >
> > href="
> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> > ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> >
> >
> > href="
> > http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> >
> >
> > href="
> > http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> > ">http://www.matronics.com/c
> >
> >
> > or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
> > ===============3
> > D===================
> > p://forums.matronics.com
> > ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >
> >
> > 3/28/2009 7:16 AM
> >
> >
> > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
> >
> >
> > ch as List Un/Subscription=2C
> > or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
> > p://forums.matronics.com
> > ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >
> >
> > A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
> >
> >
> > =====
> > ==
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 7
> > _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 11:32:14 AM PST US
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> > From: teamgrumman@AOL.COM
> >
> >
> > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/excerpt.pdf
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------
> >
> > It sounds to me like this describes the basic=C2-EI=C2-circuit. =
C2-I
> > know you can't change the length of the leads (on the unit I used).
> > =C2-Th
> > e reference temperature is the back of the unit? =C2-Not sure if I
> > would r
> > ely on that.
> >
> >
> > Except for a few cautions=2C the unpowered thermocouple gage
> >
> >
> > is quite attractive. It can be accurate and requires no wiring to
> >
> >
> > ship's DC power. Such an instrument is illustrated in View
> >
> >
> > -C-. Obviously=2C the reference-junction for this instrument
> >
> >
> > exists right where the thermocouple wires bolt to the back of
> >
> >
> > the instrument. Reference-junction compensation doesn't have
> >
> >
> > to look like a 0oC ice bath. The reference-junction compensator
> >
> >
> > just needs to know what the temperature is at the studs on the
> >
> >
> > back of the instrument case=3B no problem since the
> >
> >
> > compensation circuitry is right inside the case!
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------
> >
> > This sounds more like a=C2-JPI=C2-unit.
> >
> >
> > While on the topic of high impedance instruments for
> >
> >
> > thermocouples=2C I'll call your attention to Figure 14-12.
> >
> >
> > In View -A- the hot-junction and reference-junction
> >
> >
> > setup is similar to Figure 14-10=2C View -A- except: an
> >
> >
> > electronic amplifier inserted between thermocouple
> >
> >
> > wires and indicator. Some interesting things happen
> >
> >
> > when you add an amplifier. (1) the indicator becomes a
> >
> >
> > simple=2C much less expensive=2C voltmeter and (2) the
> >
> >
> > current flo
> > wing in the thermocouple wires is for all
> >
> >
> > practical purposes=2C zero. Length of thermocouple wire
> >
> >
> > is no longer critical=3B insertion of a selector switch to
> >
> >
> > manage many thermocouples is feasible. The last
> >
> >
> > inconvenience to eliminate is the requirement for an ice
> >
> >
> > bath . . . .
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------
> >
> > This sounds like what was done on the=C2-AG5B. =C2-No wonder their
> > temp
> > gauges are so=C2-bazaar.=C2-
> >
> > I try to avoid
> >
> >
> > bringing a thermocouple through any kind of connector
> >
> >
> > along with other wires. There's a lot of temptation on the
> >
> >
> > part of builders to bring all wires penetrating a firewall
> >
> >
> > through on some kind of connector. For cost=2C weight
> >
> >
> > and time savings=2C I recommend fabricating firewall
> >
> >
> > penetrations from ordinary grommets with sheet metal
> >
> >
> > fire shields.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > Figure 14-3: =C2-A: =C2-JPI installation. =C2- =C2-B: EI Instal
latio
> > n
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > http://www.status.co.uk/data/handbook_sections_1_to_4.pdf
> >
> >
> > Thermocouples with grounded junctions display response times some 20
> > to 30%
> >
> >
> > faster than those with insulated junctions. Very good sensitivity is
> > provide
> > d by fine
> >
> >
> > gauge unsheathed thermocouples. With conductor diameter in the range
> > 0.025mm
> >
> >
> > to 0.81mm=2C response times in the region of 0.05 to 0.40 seconds can
> > be reali
> > sed.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: teamgrumman@aol.com
> > Sent: Mon=2C 30 Mar
> > 2009 10:43 am
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >
> >
> > Just to add to the mix. =C2-
> >
> >
> > On the flight tests=2C we also measured Oil Temp and OAT with the EI.
> > =C2-Oi
> > l temp was measured at the oil filter adaptor and OAT was a probe
> > stuck out
> > the canopy at the top. =C2-
> >
> >
> > Oil temp on the EI was within 5 degrees of the oil temp measured by
> > the JPI
> > in the front right galley plug.
> >
> >
> > Oat on the JPI was slightly colder=2C 1 to 4 degrees=2C with the JPI
> > probed loca
> > ted under the left wing at the most forward inspection cover.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: teamgrumman@aol.com
> >
> >
> > Sent: Mon=2C 30 Mar 2009 10:23 am
> >
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >
> >
> > Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two
> > different styles of EI probes=2C bayonet and standard P-100=2C that he
> > tested an
> > d
> > found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large
> > differences in
> >
> > temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with
> > the fixed
> >
> > probe.=C2- And all the accusations=2C or implications at least=2C are
> > that the
> >
> > fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a
> > real
> > possibility that it could be due to something completely
> > different.
> >
> >
> > =C2-
> >
> >
> > Cliff
> >
> >
> > Finally=2C Cliff=2C you hit the nail on the head. =C2-I agree. =C2-
There
> > is
> > a real possibility there is something going on that could
> > account20for the d
> > ifferences in temperatures. =C2-I doubt=2C seriously=2C that it is ju
st
> > the pr
> > obes.
> >
> >
> > And. =C2-It has nothing to do with a recent change in vendors. =C2-
I
> > fir
> > st noticed this difference around 1995 when I installed my first JPI
> > 700.
> > =C2-
> >
> >
> > And. =C2-It isn't just my plane. =C2-I installed a JPI 700 in one
> > Comanc
> > he and a JPI 800 in another Comanche in place of previously
> > installed EI uni
> > ts. =C2-Both owners came back saying their engines were running hot.
> > =C2
> > -One owner=2C the 700=2C bought another EI and had me put it in instead
.
> > =C2
> > -The other owner was willing to accept th
> > e higher readings.
> >
> >
> > Gil. =C2-Just how many grounds is enough? =C2-Are you concerned
> > about gr
> > ound loops? =C2-I've run the ground to a common avionics ground AND
> > to the
> > ground on the engine from the avionics ground. =C2-No change. =C2-I
've
> > tried just the avionics ground. =C2-I've tried just the engine ground
.
> > =C2-No change. =C2-
> >
> >
> > Like I wrote in the STAR=2C the temps start out the same before start-
> > up. =C2
> > -The JPI temps rise faster and to a higher reading than the EI temps.
> >
> >
> > And. =C2-There is no way to know the actual test set up used by
> > Lycoming.
> > C2
> >
> >
> > I have an old Gem in a box somewhere. =C2-It has no digital readout.
> > =C2
> > -Gil=2C if yours has no digital readout=2C with 25 degree per bar
> > accuracy=2C ho
> > w do you know what th
> > e temperature is? =C2-
> >
> >
> > And. Speculation: =C2-I would expect that the makers of these
> > analyzers to
> > ok into consideration various millivolt differences. =C2-If they saw
> > diffe
> > rences of 3 degrees=2C I doubt they cared.
> >
> >
> > And. =C2-If this had only happened to one installation=2C then I woul
d
> > look
> > at the installation. =C2-It is a universal experience that the JPI
> > reads h
> > igher. =C2-
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> >
> > From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent: Sun=2C 29 Mar 2009 7:35 pm
> >
> >
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >
> >
> > Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two
> > different styles of EI probes=2C bayonet and standard P-100=2C that he
> > tested an
> > d
> > found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large
> > differences in
> >
> > temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with
> > the fixed
> >
> > probe.=C2- And all the accusations=2C or implications at least=2C are
> > that the
> >
> > fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a
> > real
> > possibility that=2
> > 0it could be due to something completely
> > different.
> >
> >
> > =C2-
> >
> >
> > Cliff
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> > From:
> > Gil
> > Alexander
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent: Sunday=2C March 29=2C 2009 7:13
> > PM
> >
> >
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumm
> > an-List: RE: EI vs
> > JPI
> >
> >
> > Ned... I believe the GG post you refer to still references
> >
> > Gary's EI/JPI measurements....:^)
> >
> >
> > He just says below that the EI
> > non-bayonet probes read lower - which does not seem to be in
> > dispute....:^)
> >
> >
> > And do you really think Lycoming used a non-MIL-Spec
> > probe=2C especially in the 60's=2C for certification?=C2- I vote for
> > probes
> > that
> > touch the cylinder.
> >
> >
> > gil A
> >
> >
> > At 07:05 PM 3/29/2009=2C you wrote:
> >
> >
> > I started this thread b
> > ecause of similar
> > thread that was started on the GG. I understood one poster to say
> > that h
> > e
> > too had experienced higher readings with JPI type probes that
> > actually t
> > ouch
> > the thermowell. He had both in his Cheetah and found that the
> > probes tha
> > t
> > touch the head actually give a higher reading.
> >
> >
> > =C2-
> >
> >
> > So in answer to Gil's post it appears that
> > others have noted the diffenece in temp readings besides
> > Gary.
> >
> >
> > =C2-
> >
> >
> > Someone at
> > Lycoming needs to answer this question=2C at least the question of
> > the typ
> > e of
> > probe they used. Right now we are just speculating on what type
> > of probe
> >
> > they used.
> >
> >
> > =C2-
> >
> >
> > Ned
> >
> >
> > =C2-
> >
> >
> > Here is the post I refer
> > to:
> >
> >
> > =C2-
> >
> >
> > =C2-
> >
> >
> > -----
> > Original Message -----
> > From: John Horton
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent: Tuesday=2C
> > March 24=2C 2009209:19 PM
> >
> >
> > Subject: RE: Tiger outlet ramps - More Info
> > Req.
> >
> >
> > Dave=2C
> >
> >
> > I would direct you to look at
> >
> >
> > http://www.bondline.org/wiki/Lower_Cowling_Split
> >
> >
> > for
> > info about reworking the exit ramps.=C2- That link will only
> > provide
> > info
> >
> >
> > about
> >
> >
> > the metal exit ramps but that's half the
> > options.
> >
> >
> > When you mention that your temps are "warm" be sure to
> > review the GG archives
> >
> >
> > about JPI instrumentation vs EI instrumentation.
> > There are differences in
> >
> >
> > probe
> >
> >
> > design that make JPI read higher that
> > EI in what should be the same cylinder.
> >
> >
> > So if you have JP CHT and think
> > your running "warm" you might be just fine if
> >
> >
> > you had EI CHT.=C2-
> > Theres a good bit of reading in the archives on that
> > topic.
> >
> >
> > My
> >
> >
> > consensus after reviewing (and I might still have it wrong)
> > is that JP CHT
> >
> >
> > reads
> >
> >
> > hotter than EI due to the fact that the JP CHT
> > probe actually is spring
> >
> >
> > loaded
> >
> >
> > to touch the cyl head. The EI CHT
> > probe screws into a space in the cyl head.
> >
> >
> > I
> >
> >
> > have had both in my plane
> > (Cheetah) and can verify that fact. The pro
> > bes are
> >
> >
> > different and the JP
> > touches the head and reads hotter.
> >
> >
> > So if you have=C2- JP CHT gauge
> > and it reads 420 in climb your most likely fine.
> >
> >
> > (Assuming the temp goes
> > down when you level out)=2
> > 0The same plane may well read
> >
> >
> > 385 with a EI CHT
> > and it is fine also. Be sure to know your temp source (EI
> >
> >
> > or
> >
> >
> > JP) and
> >
> > read the archives to get a feel for the differences before you go
> > and
> >
> >
> > rework your exit ramps. They might be fine.
> >
> >
> > I recently
> > reworked my exit ramps on my Cheetah due to a "warmer" than
> > I'd
> >
> >
> > like
> >
> >
> > #4 cyl=2C cracks in my metal exit ramps and a newly minted
> > A&P ticket that
> >
> >
> > allowed
> >
> >
> > me to do it. I have only flown it once and
> > the results looked promising.
> >
> >
> > Tommorrow I hope to gather more flight
> > data. I currently have a JP CHT/EGT
> >
> >
> > and
> >
> >
> > in climb prior to the ramp
> > work could occasionally hit 450 (my and Lycomings
> >
> >
> > redline).=C2- I could
> > easily get into the 430's in climb and have to nose over
> >
> >
> > and
> >
> >
> > or
> > throttle back to arrest the CHT rise.=C2- When I had the EI CHT
> > gauge
> > I
> > never
> >
> >
> > saw anything above 390.
> >
> >
> > After reworking the ramps I do
> > expect to go faster=2C climb higher and do it
> >
> >
> > all
> >
> >
> > with 1/3 flaps
> > deployed for less gallons per hour. I just had to throw that
> >
> >
> > in
> >
> >
> > in
> > case there aren't
> > enough emotionally loaded topics to write
> > about.
> >
> >
> > John Horton
> >
> >
> > HC Cheetah
> >
> >
> > Sensenich Prop
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =C2------ Original Message -----
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Fr
> > om: Gil Alexander
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent: Sunday=2C March 29=2C 2009 8:41 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Gary=2C
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > How many STCs have you installed with poor/bad/wrong
> > instructions?=C2- And the CHT/EGT monitor STCs are quite
> > "generic" n
> > ot
> > really airframe specific.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > My latest one was my Plane Power voltage regulator.=C2- Works fine=2C
> > but needed spacers to clear the "bumps" on the fire wall -
> > hardly a
> > drop-in exact replacement for the non flat bottom mechanical
> > regulator
> > -
> > and no mention in the STC instructions.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your plane seems to be the only test case reporting the problem.=C2-
> > I'm happy with the Insight GEM in mine with it's probes that
> > touch the
> >
> > thermowell bottom like I believe the Lycoming test bayonet
> > probes did
> > during their certification.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > As an electronics engineer=2C I know I would not design sensitive
> > millivolts
> > equipment using grounded sensors.... but that's just me.... and
> > my stuff is (or has been) working in military aircraft and space
> > vehicles....:^)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > gil A
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > PS ...I like the GEM unit=2C but I have the20"bars on
> > ly" version - I
> > would prefer the version with numbers - a probable future
> > upgrade.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > PPS=C2- Sorry about the formatting of the mV chart in my previous
> > e-mail
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Here is an alternate link to another table of National Institute of
> > Standards and Technology output voltages from a Type J
> > thermocouple
> > -
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This shows how small the DC voltages are that we are
> > measuring.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 05:40 PM 3/29/2009=2C you wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we
> > are dealing with fractions of milliVolts=2C I would
> > personally vote
> > for
> > grounding issues.=C3=82
> >
> >
> >
> > MY PLANE? =C3=82 Ok=2C maybe your right. =C3=82 The grounds in
installed
> > according to the STC were done wrong. =C3=82 Maybe the probes
> > ground
> > ing
> > 20 against brand new cylinders had corrosion built up in them.
> > =C3=82
> > =C2-
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Maybe planes experiencing CHT readings higher on a JPI than on an EI
> > also followed the installation i
> > nstructions.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > How about you doing your own testing and report your own
> > 20 results?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent: Sun=2C 29 Mar 2009 12:03 pm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This is only true if=2C and it's a big IF=2C the temperatures
> > displayed on todays instrumentation "WOULD" have displayed
> > the sam
> > e
> > temperatures as those recorded by Lycoming technicians=C3=83
> > =9A on the
> > instrumentation used by Lycoming. =C3=83=9A=C3=82=C2-
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Gary... I don't belief that is a big "IF"...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The electrical characteristics of a type J thermocouple have been
> > well known from long before WWII.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The electrical instrument
> > ation bit has not changed over the years as
> > far as the basic thermocouple=2C especially when used in an
> > engine tes
> > t
> > cell.=C3=82=C2- I bet Lycoming had individual CHT meters
> > directly
> > conn
> > ected
> > to the probes=2C none of this fancy digital switching=2C scanning
> > stuff....:^)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Today the probes and the interconnect may be different=2C but the a
> > type J thermocouple h
> > as always created the same amount of voltage due to
> > physics.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we
> > are dealing with fractions of milliVolts=2C I would personally
> > vote fo
> > r
> > grounding issues.=C3=82=C2- You can see from the table below
> > that
> > 10
> > degrees Centigrade is about a 1/2 milliVolt change.=C3=82=C2-
> > Try
> > a direct
> > wire from GND on your EI gauge to the engine.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This is from Sandia labs...=C3=82=C2- gil A
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 ITS-90 Table for type J=C3=82=C2- thermocouple
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 =C3=82=C2=B0C=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82
> > =C3=82
> > =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> >
> >
> > 1=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 2=C3=
82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> > =C3
> > =82
> >
> >
> > 3=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 4=C3=
82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> > =C3
> > =82
> >
> >
> > 5=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 6=C3=
82 =C3=82=2
> > 0=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> >
> >
> > 7=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 8=C3=
82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> > =C3
> > =82
> >
> >
> > 9=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 10
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=8220=C3=82 =C
3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> > =C3=82 =C3
> > =82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> > =C3=82
> > =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> >
> >
> > Thermoelectric Voltage in mV
> >
> >
> > =C3=82
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82=C2- 0.000=C3=82=C2- 0.0
50=C3=82=C2- 0.101
> > =C
> > 3=C2- 0.151=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 0.202=C3=82=C2- 0.253=C3=82=C2- 0.303=C3=82=C2- 0.354
=C3=82=C2- 0.40
> > 5=C3=82=C2-
> > 0.456=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 0.507
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 10=C3=82=C2- 0.507=C3=82=C2- 0.558=C3=
82=C2- 0.609=C3=82
> > =C2- 0.660=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 0.711=C3=82=C2- 0.762=C3=82=C2- 0.814=C3=82=C2- 0.865
=C3=82=C2- 0.91
> > 6=C3=82=C2-
> > 0.968=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 1.019
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 20=C3=82=C2- 1.019=C3=82=C2- 1.071
> >
> >
> > =C2-1.122=C3=82=C2- 1.174=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 1.226=C3=82=C2- 1.277=C3=82=C2- 1.329=C3=82=C2- 1.381
=C3=82=C2- 1.43
> > 3=C3=82=C2-
> > 1.485=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 1.537
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 30=C3=82=C2- 1.537=C3=82=C2- 1.589=C3=
82=C2- 1.641=C3=82
> > =C2- 1.693=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 1.745=C3=82=C2- 1.797=C3=82=C2- 1.849=C3=82=C2- 1.902
=C3=82=C2- 1.95
> > 4=C3=82=C2-
> > 2.006=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 2.059
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 40=C3=82=C2- 2.059=C3=82=C2- 2.111=C3=
82=C2- 2.164=C3=82
> > =C2- 2.216=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 2.269=C3=82=C2- 2.322=C3=82=C2- 2.374=C3=82=C2- 2.427
=C3=82=C2- 2.48
> > 0=C3=82=C2-
> > 2.532=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 2.585
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2-
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 50=C3=82=C2- 2.585=C3=82=C2- 2.6382=C2-
2.691=C3=82=C2
> > - 2.744=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 2.797=C3=82=C2- 2.850=C3=82=C2- 2.903=C3=82=C2- 2.956
=C3=82=C2- 3.00
> > 9=C3=82=C2-
> > 3.062=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 3.116
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 60=C3=82=C2- 3.116=C3=82=C2- 3.169C3=C2-
3.222=C3=82=C2
> > - 3.275=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 3.329=C3=82=C2- 3.382=C3=82=C2- 3.436=C3=82=C2- 3.489
=C3=82=C2- 3.54
> > 3=C3=82=C2-
> > 3.596=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 3.650
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 70=C3=82=C2- 3.650=C3=82=C2- 3.703=C3=
82=C2- 3.757=C3=82
> > =C2- 3.810=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 3.864=C3=82=C2- 3.918=C3=82=C2- 3.971=C3=82=C2- 4.025
=C3=82=C2- 4.07
> > 9=C3=82=C2-
> > 4.133=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 4.187
> >
> >
> > =0
> > A=C3=82=C2- 80=C3=82=C2- 4.187=C3=82=C2- 4.240=C3
=82=C2- 4.294=C3
> > =82=C2- 4.348=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 4.402=C3=82=C2- 4.456=C3=82=C2- 4.510=C3=82=C2- 4.564
=C3=82=C2- 4.61
> > 8=C3=82=C2-
> > 4.672=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 4.726
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2- 90=C3=82=C2- 4.726=C3=82=C2- 4.781=C3=
82=C2- 4.835=C3=82
> > =C2- 4.889=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 4.943=C3=82=C2- 4.997=C3=82=C2- 5.052=C3=82=C2- 5.106
=C3=82=C2- 5.16
> > 0=C3=82=C2-
> > 5.215=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 5.269
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2-
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 100=C3=82=C2- 5.269=C3=82=C2- 5.323=C3=82=
C2- 5.378=C3=82=C2
> > - 5.432=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 5.487=C3=82=C2- 5.541=C3=82=C2- 5.595=C3=82=C2- 5.650
=C3=82=C2- 5.70
> > 5=C3=82=C2-
> > 5.759=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 5.814
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 110=C3=82=C2- 5.814=C3=82=C2- 5.868=C3=82=
C2- 5.923=C3=82=C2
> > - 5.977=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 6.032=C3=82=C2- 6.087=C3=82=C2- 6.141=C3=82=C2- 6.196
=C3=82=C2- 6.25
> > 1=C3=82=C2-
> > 6.306=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 6.360
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 120=C3=82=C2- 6.360=C3=82=C2- 6.415=C3=82=
C2- 6.470=C3=82=C2
> > - 6.525=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 6.579=C3=82=C2- 6.634=C3=82=C2- 6.689=C3=82=C2- 6.744
=C
> > 3=C2- 6.799=C3=82=C2-
> > 6.854=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 6.909
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 130=C3=82=C2- 6.909=C3=82=C2- 6.964=C3=82=
C2- 7.019=C3=82=C2
> > - 7.074=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 7.129=C3=82=C2- 7.184=C3=82=C2- 7.239=C3=82=C2- 7.29
> > 4=C3=82=C2- 7.349=C3=82=C2-
> > 7.404=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 7.459
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 140=C3=82=C2- 7.4590 7.514=C3=82=C2- 7.569=C3
=82=C2- 7.624=C3
> > =82
> >
> >
> > 7.679=C3=82=C2- 7.734=C3=82=C2- 7.789=C3=82=C2- 7.844
=C3=82=C2- 7.90
> > 0=C3=82=C2-
> > 7.955=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 8.010
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2-
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 150=C3=82=C2- 8.010=C3=82=C2- 8.065=C3=82=
C2- 8.120=C3=82=C2
> > - 8.175=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 8.231=C3=82=C2- 8.286=C3=82=C2- 8.341=C3=82=C2- 8.396
> > =C3=82=C2- 8.452=C3=82=C2-
> > 8.507=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 8.562
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 160=C3=82=C2- 8.562=C3=82=C2- 8.618=C3=82=
C2- 8.673=C3=82=C2
> > - 8.728=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 8.783=C3=82=C2- 8.839=C3=82=C2- 8.894=C3=82=C2- 8.949
=C3=82=C2- 9.00
> > 5=C3=82=C2-
> > 9.060=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 9.115
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 170=C3=82=C2- 9.115=C3=82=C2- 9.171=C3=82=
C2- 9.226=C3=82=C2
> > - 9.282=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 9.337=C3=82=C2- 9.392=C3=82=C2- 9.448=C3=82=C2- 9.503
=C3=82=C2- 9.55
> > 9=C3=82=C2-
> > 9.614=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 9.669
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 180=C3=82=C2- 9.669=C3=82=C2- 9.725=C3=82=
C2- 9.780=C3=82=C2
> > - 9.836=C3=82
> >
> >
> > 9.891=C3=82=C2- 9.947 10.002 10.057 10.113 10.168 10.224
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 190 10.224 10.279 10.335 10.390 10.446 10.501 10.557 10.612
> > 10.668
> >
> >
> > 10.723 10.779
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2-
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 200 10.779 10.834 10.890 10.945 11.001 11.056 11.112 11.167
> > 11.223
> >
> >
> > 11.278 11.334
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 210 11.334 11.389 11.445 11.501 11.556 11.612 11.667 11.723
> > 11.778
> >
> >
> > 11.834 11.889
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 220 11.889 11.945 12.000 12.056 12.111 12.167 12.222 12.278
> > 12.334
> >
> >
> > 12.389 12.445
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 230 12.445 12.500 12.556 12.611 12.667 12.722 12.7
> > 78 12.833 12.889
> >
> >
> > 12.944 13.000
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 240 13.000 13.056 13.111 13.167 13.222 13.278 13.333 13.389
> > 13.444
> >
> >
> > 13.500 13.555
> >
> >
> > =C3=82=C2-
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 250 13.555 13.611 13.666 13.722 13.777 13.833 13.888 13.944
> > 13.999
> >
> >
> > 14.055 14.110
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 260 14.110 14.166 14.221 14.277 14.332 14.388 14.443 14.499
> > 14.554
> >
> >
> > 14.609 14.665
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 270 14.665 14.720 14.776 14.831 14.887 14.942 14.998 15.053
> > 15.109
> >
> >
> > 15.164 15.21
> > 9
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 280 15.219 15.275 15.330 15.386 15.441 15.496 15.552 15.607
> > 15.663
> >
> >
> > 15.718 15.773
> >
> >
> > =C3=82 290 15.773 15.829 15.884 15.940 15.995 16.050 16.106 16.161
16.
> >
> >
> > 216
> >
> >
> > 16.272 16.327
> >
> >
> > or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
> >
> >
> > p://forums.matronics.com
> >
> >
> > ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.
> > ?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx
> > %3Fs
> > c%3D668072%26hmp
> > gID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62">
> > See yours in just 2 easy steps!
> >
> >
> > href="
> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> > ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> >
> >
> > href="
> > http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> >
> >
> > href="
> > http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> > ">http://www.matronics.com/c
> >
> >
> > or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
> > ===============3
> > D===================
> > p://forums.matronics.com
> > ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >
> >
> > 3/28/2009 7:16 AM
> >
> >
> > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
> >
> >
> > ch as List Un/Subscription=2C
> > or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
> > p://forums.matronics.com
> > ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >
> >
> > A Good Credit Score is 700 or Abo
> > ve. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
> >
> >
> > or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
> > _-3D
> > p://forums.matronics.com
> > ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >
> >
> > A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
> >
> >
> > ===========
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 8
> > _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 12:34:58 PM PST US
> > From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >
> > Into the mix but a completely different type of sensor.
> >
> > No thermocouples here - it's either a resistive
> > sensor=2C or a semiconductor junction type sensor.
> >
> > Apples and Oranges.... gilA
> >
> > At 10:43 AM 3/30/2009=2C you wrote:
> >> Just to add to the mix. =C2
> >>
> >> On the flight tests=2C we also measured Oil Temp
> >> and OAT with the EI. =C2 Oil temp was measured at
> >> the oil filter adaptor and OAT was a probe stuck out the canopy at
> >> the top.
> > =C2
> >>
> >> Oil temp on the EI was within 5 degrees of the
> >> oil temp measured by the JPI in the front right galley plug.
> >>
> >> Oat on the JPI was slightly colder=2C 1 to 4
> >> degrees=2C with the JPI probed located under the
> >> left wing at the most forward inspection cover.
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: teamgrumman@aol.com
> >> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> >> Sent: Mon=2C 30 Mar 2009 10:23 am
> >> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >>
> >> Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the
> >> two different styles of EI probes=2C bayonet and
> >> standard P-100=2C that he tested and found very
> >> little difference between the two.=C2 The large
> >> differences in temperature mentioned are between
> >> JPI with the bayonet and EI with the fixed
> >> probe.=C2 And all the accusations=2C or
> >> implications at least=2C are that the fixed EI
> >> probe does not measure the true
> >> temperature.=C2 There is a real possibility that
> >> it could be due to something completely different.
> >> =C2
> >> Cliff
> >>
> >> Finally=2C Cliff=2C you hit the nail on the head. =C2
> >> I agree. =C2 There is a real possibility there is
> >> something going on that could account for the
> >> differences in temperatures. =C2 I doubt=2C seriously=2C that it is
> >> just the
> > probes.
> >>
> >> And. =C2 It has nothing to do with a recent change
> >> in vendors. =C2 I first noticed this difference
> >> around 1995 when I installed my first JPI 700. =C2
> >>
> >> And. =C2 It isn't just my plane. =C2 I installed a
> >> JPI 700 in one Comanche and a JPI 800 in another
> >> Comanche in place of previously installed EI
> >> units. =C2 Both owners came back saying their
> >> engines were running hot. =C2 One owner=2C the 700=2C
> >> bought another EI and had me put it in instead.
> >> =C2 The other owner was willing to accept th e higher readings.
> >>
> >> Gil. =C2 Just how many grounds is enough? =C2 Are
> >> you concerned about ground loops? =C2 I've run the
> >> ground to a common avionics ground AND to the
> >> ground on the engine from the avionics ground. =C2
> >> No change. =C2 I've tried just the avionics
> >> ground. =C2 I've tried just the engine ground. =C2 No change. =C
2
> >>
> >> Like I wrote in the STAR=2C the temps start out
> >> the same before start-up. =C2 The JPI temps rise
> >> faster and to a higher reading than the EI temps.
> >>
> >> And. =C2 There is no way to know the actual test set up used by
> >> Lycoming.
> > C2
> >>
> >> I have an old Gem in a box somewhere. =C2 It has
> >> no digital readout. =C2 Gil=2C if yours has no
> >> digital readout=2C with 25 degree per bar
> >> accuracy=2C how do you know what the temperature is? =C2
> >>
> >> And. Speculation: =C2 I would expect that the
> >> makers of these analyzers took into
> >> consideration various millivolt differences. =C2
> >> If they saw differences of 3 degrees=2C I doubt they cared.
> >>
> >> And. =C2 If this had only happened to one
> >> installation=2C then I would look at the
> >> installation. =C2 It is a universal experience that the JPI reads
> >> higher.
> > =C2
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: flyv35b <<mailto:flyv35b@minetfiber.com>flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
> >> To: <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>teamgrumman-list@matronics.
com
> >> Sent: Sun=2C 29 Mar 2009 7:35 pm
> >> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >>
> >> Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the
> >> two different styles of EI probes=2C bayonet and
> >> standard P-100=2C that he tested and found very
> >> little difference between the two.=C2 The large
> >> differences in temperature mentioned are between
> >> JPI with the bayonet and EI with the fixed
> >> probe.=C2 And all the accusations=2C or
> >> implications at least=2C are that the fixed EI
> >> probe does not measure the true
> >> temperature.=C2 There is a real possibility
> >> that=2 0it could be due to something completely different.
> >> =C2
> >> Cliff
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: <mailto:gilalex@earthlink.net>Gil Alexander
> >> To: <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>teamgrumman-list@matronics.
com
> >> Sent: Sunday=2C March 29=2C 2009 7:13 PM
> >> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >>
> >> Ned... I believe the GG post you refer to still
> >> references Gary's EI/JPI measurements....:^)
> >>
> >> He just says below that the EI non-bayonet
> >> probes read lower - which does not seem to be in dispute....:^)
> >>
> >> And do you really think Lycoming used a
> >> non-MIL-Spec probe=2C especially in the 60's=2C for
> >> certification?=C2 I vote for probes that touch the cylinder.
> >>
> >> gil A
> >>
> >> At 07:05 PM 3/29/2009=2C you wrote:
> >>> I started this thread b ecause of similar
> >>> thread that was started on the GG. I understood
> >>> one poster to say that he too had experienced
> >>> higher readings with JPI type probes that
> >>> actually touch the thermowell. He had both in
> >>> his Cheetah and found that the probes that
> >>> touch the head actually give a higher reading.
> >>> =C2
> >>> So in answer to Gil's post it appears that
> >>> others have noted the diffenece in temp readings besides Gary.
> >>> =C2
> >>> Someone at Lycoming needs to answer this
> >>> question=2C at least the question of the type of
> >>> probe they used. Right now we are just
> >>> speculating on what type of probe they used.
> >>> =C2
> >>> Ned
> >>> =C2
> >>> Here is the post I refer to:
> >>> =C2
> >>> =C2
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: <mailto:hortonjf@comcast.net>John
> > Horton
> >>> To: <mailto:3d.flyguy@abszero.com>'Dave
> >>> Kalwick' =3B <mailto:grumman-gang@xmission.com>'GG'
> >>> Sent: Tuesday=2C March 24=2C 2009 9:19 PM
> >>> Subject: RE: Tiger outlet ramps - More Info Req.
> >>>
> >>> Dave=2C
> >>> I would direct you to look at
> >>> http://www.bondline.org/wiki/Lower_Cowling_Split< /a>
> >>> for info about reworking the exit ramps.=C2 That link will only
> >>> provide
> > info
> >>> about
> >>> the metal exit ramps but that's half the options.
> >>>
> >>> When you mention that your temps are "warm" be sure to review the GG
> > archives
> >>> about JPI instrumentation vs EI instrumentation. There are
> >>> differences in
> >>> probe
> >>> design that make JPI read higher that EI in what should be the same
> > cylinder.
> >>> So if you have JP CHT and think your running "warm" you might be
> >>> just fine
> > if
> >>> you had EI CHT.=C2 Theres a good bit of reading in the archives
> >>> on that
> > topic.
> >>> My
> >>> consensus after reviewing (and I might still have it wrong) is
> >>> that JP CHT
> >>> reads
> >>> hotter than EI due to the fact that the JP CHT probe actually is
> >>> spring
> >>> loaded
> >>> to touch the cyl head. The EI CHT probe screws into a space in the
> >>> cyl
> > head.
> >>> I
> >>> have had both in my plane (Cheetah) and can verify that fact. The
> >>> pro bes
> > are
> >>> different and the JP touches the head and reads hotter.
> >>>
> >>> So if you have=C2 JP CHT gauge and it reads 420
> >>> in climb your most likely fine.
> >>> (Assuming the temp goes down when you level out) The same plane
> >>> may well
> > read
> >>> 385 with a EI CHT and it is fine also. Be sure to know your temp
> >>> source
> > (EI
> >>> or
> >>> JP) and read the archives to get a feel for the differences before
> >>> you go
> > and
> >>> rework your exit ramps. They might be fine.
> >>>
> >>> I recently reworked my exit ramps on my Cheetah due to a "warmer"
> >>> than I'd
> >>> like
> >>> #4 cyl=2C cracks in my metal exit ramps and a newly minted A&P
> >>> ticket that
> >>> allowed
> >>> me to do it. I have only flown it once and the results looked
> >>> promising.
> >>> Tommorrow I hope to gather more flight data. I currently have a JP
> >>> CHT/EGT
> >>> and
> >>> in climb prior to the ramp work could occasionally hit 450 (my and
> > Lycomings
> >>> redline).=C2 I could easily get into the 430's in climb and have
> >>> to nose
> > over
> >>> and
> >>> or throttle back to arrest the CHT rise.=C2 When
> >>> I had the EI CHT gauge I never
> >>> saw anything above 390.
> >>>
> >>> After reworking the ramps I do expect to go faster=2C climb higher
> >>> and do it
> >>> all
> >>> with 1/3 flaps deployed for less gallons per hour. I just had to
> >>> throw
> > that
> >>> in
> >>> in case there aren't enough emotionally loaded topics to write
> >>> about.
> >>>
> >>> John Horton
> >>> HC Cheetah
> >>> Sensenich Prop
> >>> =C2 ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: <mailto:gilalex@earthlink.net>Gil Alexander
> >>> To: <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matro nics.com>teamgrumman-list@matronic
s.com
> >>> Sent: Sunday=2C March 29=2C 2009 8:41 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >>> Gary=2C
> >>> How many STCs have you installed with
> >>> poor/bad/wrong instructions?=C2 And the CHT/EGT
> >>> monitor STCs are quite "generic" not really airframe specific.
> >>> My latest one was my Plane Power voltage
> >>> regulator.=C2 Works fine=2C but needed spacers to
> >>> clear the "bumps" on the fire wall - hardly a
> >>> drop-in exact replacement for the non flat
> >>> bottom mechanical regulator - and no mention in the STC
> >>> instructions.
> >>> Your plane seems to be the only test case
> >>> reporting the problem.=C2 I'm happy with the
> >>> Insight GEM in mine with it's probes that touch
> >>> the thermowell bottom like I believe the
> >>> Lycoming test bayonet probes did during their certification.
> >>> As an electronics engineer=2C I know I would not
> >>> design sensitive millivolts equipment using
> >>> grounded sensors.... but that's just me.... and
> >>> my stuff is (or has been) working in military
> >>> aircraft and space vehicles....:^)
> >>> gil A
> >>> PS ...I like the GEM unit=2C but I have the "bars
> >>> on ly" version - I would prefer the version
> >>> with numbers - a probable future upgrade.
> >>> PPS=C2 Sorry about the formatting of the mV chart in my previous
> >>> e-mail
> >>> Here is an alternate link to another table of
> >>> National Institute of Standards and Technology
> >>> output voltages from a Type J thermocouple -
> >>>
> >>> <http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf>http://www.omega.com
/temp
> > erature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf
> >>> This shows how small the DC voltages are that we are measuring.
> >>> At 05:40 PM 3/29/2009=2C you wrote:
> >>>> There is something else going on here in your
> >>>> plane - and since we are dealing with
> >>>> fractions of milliVolts=2C I would personally vote for grounding
> >>>> issues.=C3
> > =82
> >>>>
> >>>> MY PLANE? =C3=82 Ok=2C maybe your right. =C3=82 The
> >>>> grounds in installed according to the STC were
> >>>> done wrong. =C3=82 Maybe the probes grounding 20
> >>>> against brand new cylinders had corrosion built up in them.
> >>>> =C3=82=C2
> >>>> Maybe planes experiencing CHT readings higher
> >>>> on a JPI than on an EI also followed the installation i
> >>>> nstructions.
> >>>> How about you doing your own testing and report your own results?
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Gil Alexander <<mailto:gilalex@earthlink.net>gilalex@earthlink
.net
> >>>> >
> >>>> To: <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>teamgrumman-list@matronic
s.com
> >>>> Sent: Sun=2C 29 Mar 2009 12:03 pm
> >>>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> This is only true if=2C and it's a big IF=2C the
> >>>>> temperatures displayed on todays
> >>>>> instrumentation "WOULD" have displayed the
> >>>>> same temperatures as those recorded by
> >>>>> Lycoming technicians=C3=83=9A on the instrumentation used by
> > Lycoming. =C3=83=82=C3=82=C2
> >>>> Gary... I don't belief that is a big "IF"...
> >>>> The electrical characteristics of a type J
> >>>> thermocouple have been well known from long before WWII.
> >>>> The electrical instrument ation bit has not
> >>>> changed over the years as far as the basic
> >>>> thermocouple=2C especially when used in an
> >>>> engine test cell.=C3=82=C2 I bet Lycoming had
> >>>> individual CHT meters directly conn ected to
> >>>> the probes=2C none of this fancy digital switching=2C scanning
> >>>> stuff....:^)
> >>>> Today the probes and the interconnect may be
> >>>> different=2C but the a type J thermocouple has
> >>>> always created the same amount of voltage due to physics.
> >>>> There is something else going on here in your
> >>>> plane - and since we are dealing with
> >>>> fractions of milliVolts=2C I would personally
> >>>> vote for grounding issues.=C3=82=C2 You can see
> >>>> from the table below that 10 degrees
> >>>> Centigrade is about a 1/2 milliVolt
> >>>> change.=C3=82=C2 Try a direct wire from GND on your EI gauge t
o
> >>>> the
> > engine.
> >>>> This is from Sandia labs...=C3=82=C2 gil A
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 ITS-90 Table for type J=C3=82=C2 thermocouple
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 =C3=82=C2=B0C=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =
C3=82 =C3=82=C2
> >>>> 0=C3=82 =C3=82
> > =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 1=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 2=C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> >>>> =C3=82 =C3
> > =82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 3=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 4=C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> >>>> =C3=82 =C3
> > =82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 5=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 6=C3
=82 =C3=82=2
> >>>>
> >>>> 0=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 7=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 8=C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> >>>> =C3=82 =C3
> > =82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 9=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 10
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=8220=C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> >>>> =C3=82
> > =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> >>>> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> >>>> =C3=82 =C3
> > =82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Thermoelectric Voltage in mV
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 0=C3=82=C2 0.000=C3=82=C2 0.0
50=C3=82=C2
> >>>> 0.101=C3=82
> > =C2 0.151=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 0.202=C3=82=C2 0.253=C3=82=C2 0.303=C3=82=C2 0.354
=C3=82=C2
> >>>> 0.405=C3
> > =82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>> 0.456=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 0.507
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82=C2 10=C3=82=C2 0.507=C3=82=C2 0.558=C3=
82=C2
> >>>> 0.609=C3=82=C2
> > 0.660=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 0.711=C3=82=C2 0.762=C3=82=C2 0.814=C3=82=C2 0.865
=C3=82=C2
> >>>> 0.916=C3
> > =82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>> 0.968=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 1.019
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82=C2 20=C3=82=C2 1.019=C3=82=C2 1.071
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C2 1.122=C3=82=C2 1.174=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 1.226=C3=82=C2 1.277=C3=82=C2 1.329=C3=82=C2 1.381
=C3=82=C2
> >>>> 1.433=C3
> > =82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>> 1.485=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 1.537
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82=C2 30=C3=82=C2 1.537=C3=82=C2 1.589=C3=
82=C2
> >>>> 1.641=C3=82=C2
> > 1.693=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 1.745=C3=82=C2 1.797=C3=82=C2 1.849=C3=82=C2 1.902
=C3=82=C2
> >>>> 1.954=C3
> > =82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>> 2.006=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 2.059
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82=C2 40=C3=82=C2 2.059=C3=82=C2 2.111=C3=
82=C2
> >>>> 2.164=C3=82=C2
> > 2.216=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 2.269=C3=82=C2 2.322=C3=82=C2 2.374=C3=82=C2 2.427
=C3=82=C2
> >>>> 2.480=C3
> > =82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>> 2.532=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 2.585
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82=C2 50=C3=82=C2 2.585=C3=82=C2 2.6382=C2 2
.691=C3=82=C2
> > 2.744=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 2.797=C3=82=C2 2.850=C3=82=C2 2.903=C3=82=C2 2.956
=C3=82=C2
> >>>> 3.009=C3
> > =82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>> 3.062=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 3.116
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82=C2 60=C3=82=C2 3.116=C3=82=C2 3.169C3=C2
3.222=C3=82=C2
> > 3.275=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 3.329=C3=82=C2 3.382=C3=82=C2 3.436=C3=82=C2 3.489
=C3=82=C2
> >>>> 3.543=C3
> > =82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>> 3.596=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 3.650
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82=C2 70=C3=82=C2 3.650=C3=82=C2 3.703=C3=
82=C2
> >>>> 3.757=C3=82=C2
> > 3.810=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 3.864=C3=82=C2 3.918=C3=82=C2 3.971=C3=82=C2 4.025
=C3=82=C2
> >>>> 4.079=C3
> > =82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>> 4.133=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 4.187
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82=C2 80=C3=82=C2 4.187=C3=82=C2 4.240=C3=
82=C2
> >>>> 4.294=C3=82=C2
> > 4.348=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 4.402=C3=82=C2 4.456=C3=82=C2 4.510=C3=82=C2 4.564
=C3=82=C2
> >>>> 4.618=C3
> > =82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>> 4.672=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 4.726
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82=C2 90=C3=82=C2 4.726=C3=82=C2 4.781=C3=
82=C2
> >>>> 4.835=C3=82=C2
> > 4.889=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 4.943=C3=82=C2 4.997=C3=82=C2 5.052=C3=82=C2 5.106
=C3=82=C2
> >>>> 5.160=C3
> > =82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>> 5.215=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 5.269
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 100=C3=82=C2 5.269=C3=82=C2 5.323=C3=82
=C2 5.378=C3=82=C2
> > 5.432=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 5.487=C3=82=C2 5.541=C3=82=C2 5.595=C3=82=C2 5.650
=C3=82=C2
> >>>> 5.705=C3
> > =82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>> 5.759=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 5.814
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 110=C3=82=C2 5.814=C3=82=C2 5.868=C3=82
=C2 5.923=C3=82=C2
> > 5.977=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 6.032=C3=82=C2 6.087=C3=82=C2 6.141=C3=82=C2 6.196
=C3=82=C2
> >>>> 6.251=C3
> > =82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>> 6.306=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 6.360
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 120=C3=82=C2 6.360=C3=82=C2 6.415=C3=82
=C2 6.470=C3=82=C2
> > 6.525=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 6.579=C3=82=C2 6.634=C3=82=C2 6.689=C3=82=C2 6.744
=C
> >>>>
> >>>> 3=C2 6.799=C3=82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>> 6.854=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 6.909
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 130=C3=82=C2 6.909=C3=82=C2 6.964=C3=82
=C2 7.019=C3=82=C2
> > 7.074=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 7.129=C3=82=C2 7.184=C3=82=C2 7.239=C3=82=C2 7.29
> >>>>
> >>>> 4=C3=82=C2 7.349=C3=82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>> 7.404=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 7.459
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 140=C3=82=C2 7.4590 7.514=C3=82=C2 7.569=C3
=82=C2
> >>>> 7.624=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 7.679=C3=82=C2 7.734=C3=82=C2 7.789=C3=82=C2 7.844
=C3=82=C2
> >>>> 7.900=C3
> > =82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>> 7.955=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 8.010
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 150=C3=82=C2 8.010=C3=82=C2 8.065=C3=82
=C2 8.120=C3=82=C2
> > 8.175=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 8.231=C3=82=C2 8.286=C3=82=C2 8.341=C3=82=C2 8.396
=C3=82=C2
> >>>> 8.452=C3
> > =82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>> 8.507=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 8.562
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 160=C3=82=C2 8.562=C3=82=C2 8.618=C3=82
=C2 8.673=C3=82=C2
> > 8.728=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 8.783=C3=82=C2 8.839=C3=82=C2 8.894=C3=82=C2 8.949
=C3=82=C2
> >>>> 9.005=C3
> > =82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>> 9.060=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 9.115
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 170=C3=82=C2 9.115=C3=82=C2 9.171=C3=82
=C2 9.226=C3=82=C2
> > 9.282=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 9.337=C3=82=C2 9.392=C3=82=C2 9.448=C3=82=C2 9.503
=C3=82=C2
> >>>> 9.559=C3
> > =82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>> 9.614=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 9.669
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 180=C3=82=C2 9.669=C3=82=C2 9.725=C3=82
=C2 9.780=C3=82=C2
> > 9.836=C3=82
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 9.891=C3=82=C2 9.947 10.002 10.057 10.113 10.168 10.224
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 190 10.224 10.279 10.335 10.390 10.446 10.501 10.557
> >>>> 10.612 10.668
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 10.723 10.779
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 200 10.779 10.834 10.890 10.945 11.001 11.056 11.112
> >>>> 11.167 11.223
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 11.278 11.334
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 210 11.334 11.389 11.445 11.501 11.556 11.612 11.667
> >>>> 11.723 11.778
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 11.834 11.889
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 220 11.889 11.945 12.000 12.056 12.111 12.167 12.222
> >>>> 12.278 12.334
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 12.389 12.445
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 230 12.445 12.500 12.556 12.611 12.667 12.722 12.7
> >>>>
> >>>> 78 12.833 12.889
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 12.944 13.000
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 240 13.000 13.056 13.111 13.167 13.222 13.278 13.333
> >>>> 13.389 13.444
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 13.500 13.555
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82=C2
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 250 13.555 13.611 13.666 13.722 13.777 13.833 13.888
> >>>> 13.944 13.999
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 14.055 14.110
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 260 14.110 14.166 14.221 14.277 14.332 14.388 14.443
> >>>> 14.499 14.554
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 14.609 14.665
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 270 14.665 14.720 14.776 14.831 14.887 14.942 14.998
> >>>> 15.053 15.109
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 15.164 15.219
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 280 15.219 15.275 15.330 15.386 15.441 15.496 15.552
> >>>> 15.607 15.663
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 15.718 15.773
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =C3=82 290 15.773 15.829 15.884 15.940 15.995 16.050 16.106
> >>>> 16.161 16.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 216
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 16.272 16.327
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> or?TeamGrumman-List"><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman
-List
> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> p://forums.matronics.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ution"><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.c
om/co
> > ntribution
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----------
> >>>> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.
> >>>> ?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx
> >>>> %3Fsc%3D6
> > 68072%26hmp
> >>>> gID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62"> See yours in just 2 easy
> >>>> steps!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> href="
> >>>
> >>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> >>>
> >>> "><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List>http://www.mat
ronic
> > s.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> href="
> >>>
> >>> http://forums.matronics.com"><http://forums.matronics.com>http://foru
ms.ma
> > tronics.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> href="
> >>>
> >>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >>>
> >>> "><http://www.matronics.com/c>http://www.matronics.com/c
> >>
> >> or?TeamGrumman-List"><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-L
ist
> >> >h
> > ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> >>
> >> ===============3
> >>
> >> D===================
> >>
> >> p://forums.matronics.com
> >>
> >> ution"><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com
/cont
> > ribution
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------
> >> 3/28/2009 7:16 AM
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------
> >> I am using the Free version of <http://www.spamfighter.com/
> >> len>SPAMfighter.
> >> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
> >>
> >>
> >> ch as List Un/Subscription=2C
> >> or?TeamGrumman-List"><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-L
ist
> >> >h
> > ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> >> p://forums.matronics.com
> >> ution"><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com
/cont
> > ribution
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------
> >> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
> >>
> >>
> >> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Li
st
> >> _-3D
> >> p://forums.matronics.com
> >> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------
> >> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.
> > http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc
> > %3D668072%26hmpg
> > ID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62>See
> >> yours in just 2 easy steps!
> >>
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 9
> > _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 01:39:18 PM PST US
> > Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: reciting thread posts
> > From: "grumpyparts" <i.r.m@btinternet.com>
> >
> >
> > For any of you out there that is finding the EIvsJPI thread
> > interesting like me=2C
> > but finding it hard to follow at times with all those emails may I
> > suggest you
> > follow it on the teamgrumman forum list=2C you should get a link from
> > the message
> > below.
> >
> > It's far easier to follow being able to flick back though all the
> > earlier posts
> > in case I've missed something=2C also I can delete all the emails and
> > just look
> > at the forum once a day to get the updates. Try it.
> >
> > Tip just keep the title the same so as not to create another topic.
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236914#236914
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 10
> > ____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 07:02:44 PM PST US
> > Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: EI vs JPI
> > From: "az_gila" <gilalex@earthlink.net>
> >
> >
> > OK... now the point of discussion has morphed a bit.
> >
> > I thought it was "Bayonet probes vs. short=2C fixed probes" for CHTs.
> >
> > It seems to be now "JPI reads higher than EI" - which is quite a
> > different issue.
> >
> > This gets into the electronic circuits used and how the
> > manufacturers calibrate
> > their equipment.
> >
> > gil A - a little confused... [Wink]
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236970#236970
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 05/15/2008
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail=AE is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_03200
9
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: reciting thread posts |
Apparantly the digest version of the list becomes very hard to follow
when a reply includes a copy of the previous post/posts. I was unaware
of this until a friend on the list forwarded me a copy of the digest
version.
I'll try and remove the auto copied posts before posting again unless
the list owner says he prefers it be left in.
What do you say list owner?
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|