Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:14 AM - Re: Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 03/30/09 (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
2. 11:51 AM - Cowling Update (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
3. 12:13 PM - Re: Cowling Update (Hosler, John)
4. 05:06 PM - Re: Cowling Update (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
5. 11:03 PM - Official TeamGrumman-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
6. 11:07 PM - Official TeamGrumman-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 03/30/09 |
Classy. =C2-Very classy,
appledumplings.com>=C2-
=C2-
FUCK YOU ALL .... BE SMARTASS JERKS IF YOU LIKE I WAS JUST MAKING A COMMENT
THAT IT MAKES IT UNREADABLE.=C2-
=C2-
PLEASE COME BE A SMART ASS At A FLY IN.=C2-
=C2-
On Mar 31, 2009, at 2:59 AM, TeamGrumman-List Digest Server wrote:=C2-
=C2-
> *=C2-
>=C2-
> ========================
==C2-
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive=C2-
> ========================
==C2-
>=C2-
> Today's complete TeamGrumman-List Digest can also be found in either > of
the=C2-
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest > formatte
d=C2-
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked > Indexes
=C2-
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII > version
=C2-
> of the TeamGrumman-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text > edi
tor=C2-
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.=C2-
>=C2-
> HTML Version:=C2-
>=C2-
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=htm
l&Chapter 09-03-30&Archive=TeamGrumman=C2-
>=C2-
> Text Version:=C2-
>=C2-
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt
&Chapter 09-03-30&Archive=TeamGrumman=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ========================
=========================C2
-
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive=C2-
> ========================
=========================C2
-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ----------------------------------------------------------=C2
-
> TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive=C2-
> ---=C2-
> Total Messages Posted Mon 03/30/09: 10=C2-
> ----------------------------------------------------------=C2
-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Today's Message Index:=C2-
> ----------------------=C2-
>=C2-
> 1. 06:49 AM - Re: Re: EI vs JPI (flyv35b)=C2-
> 2. 07:21 AM - EI vs JPI (Thomas Campbell)=C2-
> 3. 07:48 AM - Re: EI vs JPI (flyv35b)=C2-
> 4. 09:42 AM - Re: reciting thread posts (923te)=C2-
> 5. 10:27 AM - Re: Re: EI vs JPI (teamgrumman@aol.com)=C2-
> 6. 10:46 AM - Re: Re: EI vs JPI (teamgrumman@aol.com)=C2-
> 7. 11:32 AM - Re: Re: EI vs JPI (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)=C2-
> 8. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: EI vs JPI (Gil Alexander)=C2-
> 9. 01:39 PM - Re: reciting thread posts (grumpyparts)=C2-
> 10. 07:02 PM - Re: EI vs J
PI (az_gila)=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ________________________________ Message 1 > ___________________________
__________=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Time: 06:49:50 AM PST US=C2-
> From: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
> This has been my point, there is very little difference between the > two
=C2-
> types of probes. If I recall this data from Steve was obtained on=C2-
> different flights so the 3.5F is probably within the margin of error.=C2
-
> We don't have all the data or evidence yet and the jury is still out.=C2
-
>=C2-
> Cliff=C2-
> ----- Original Message -----=C2-
> From: 923te=C2-
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=C2-
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:48 PM=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Steve's conclusion "the EI longer P-101 probe does indeed read hotter=C2
-
> than the short P-100 probe by about 3.5 degrees F"=C2-
> ----- Original Message -----=C2-
> From: flyv35b=C2-
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=C2-
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 9:35 PM=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two different=C2-
> styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard P-100, that he tested and=C2-
> found very little difference between the two. The large differences > in
=C2-
>
temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with the=C2
-
> fixed probe. And all the accusations, or implications at least, are=C2
-
> that the fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature. > There is
=C2-
> a real possibility that it could be due to something completely=C2-
> different.=C2-
>=C2-
> Cliff=C2-
> ----- Original Message -----=C2-
> From: Gil Alexander=C2-
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=C2-
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:13 PM=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Ned... I believe the GG post you refer to still references Gary's=C2
-
> EI/JPI measurements....:^)=C2-
>=C2-
> He just says below that the EI non-bayonet probes read lower -=C2-
> which does not seem to be in dispute....:^)=C2-
>=C2-
> And do you really think Lycoming used a non-MIL-Spec probe,=C2-
> especially in the 60's, for certification? I vote for probes that > touch
=C2-
> the cylinder.=C2-
>=C2-
> gil A=C2-
>=C2-
> At 07:05 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:=C2-
>=C2-
> I started this thread because of similar thread that was > started
=C2-
> on the GG. I understood one poster to say that he too had experienced=C2
-
> higher readings with JPI type probes that actually touch the > thermowell.
=C2-
> He had both in his Cheetah
and found that the probes that touch the > head=C2-
> actually give a higher reading.=C2-
>=C2-
> So in answer to Gil's post it appears that others have noted > the
=C2-
> diffenece in temp readings besides Gary.=C2-
>=C2-
> Someone at Lycoming needs to answer this question, at least the=C2
-
> question of the type of probe they used. Right now we are just=C2-
> speculating on what type of probe they used.=C2-
>=C2-
> Ned=C2-
>=C2-
> Here is the post I refer to:=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ----- Original Message -----=C2-
> From: John Horton=C2-
> To: 'Dave Kalwick' ; 'GG'=C2-
> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:19 PM=C2-
> Subject: RE: Tiger outlet ramps - More Info Req.=C2-
>=C2-
> Dave,=C2-
> I would direct you to look at=C2-
> http://www.bondline.org/wiki/Lower_Cowling_Split=C2-
> for info about reworking the exit ramps. That link will only=C2
-
> provide info=C2-
> about=C2-
> the metal exit ramps but that's half the options.=C2-
>=C2-
> When you mention that your temps are "warm" be sure to review=C2
-
> the GG archives=C2-
> about JPI instrumentation vs EI instrumentation. There are=C2-
> differences in=C2-
>
probe=C2-
> design that make JPI read higher that EI in what should be the=C2
-
> same cylinder.=C2-
> So if you have JP CHT and think your running "warm" you might > be
=C2-
> just fine if=C2-
> you had EI CHT. Theres a good bit of reading in the archives > on
=C2-
> that topic.=C2-
> My=C2-
> consensus after reviewing (and I might still have it wrong) is=C2
-
> that JP CHT=C2-
> reads=C2-
> hotter than EI due to the fact that the JP CHT probe actually > is
=C2-
> spring=C2-
> loaded=C2-
> to touch the cyl head. The EI CHT probe screws into a space in=C2
-
> the cyl head.=C2-
> I=C2-
> have had both in my plane (Cheetah) and can verify that fact.=C2
-
> The probes are=C2-
> different and the JP touches the head and reads hotter.=C2-
>=C2-
> So if you have JP CHT gauge and it reads 420 in climb your > most
=C2-
> likely fine.=C2-
> (Assuming the temp goes down when you level out) The same plane=C2
-
> may well read=C2-
> 385 with a EI CHT and it is fine also. Be sure to know your > temp
=C2-
> source (EI=C2-
> or=C2-
> JP) and read the archives to get a feel for the differences=C2-
>
before you go and=C2-
> rework your exit ramps. They might be fine.=C2-
>=C2-
> I recently reworked my exit ramps on my Cheetah due to a=C2-
> "warmer" than I'd=C2-
> like=C2-
> #4 cyl, cracks in my metal exit ramps and a newly minted A&P=C2-
> ticket that=C2-
> allowed=C2-
> me to do it. I have only flown it once and the results looked=C2
-
> promising.=C2-
> Tommorrow I hope to gather more flight data. I currently have a=C2
-
> JP CHT/EGT=C2-
> and=C2-
> in climb prior to the ramp work could occasionally hit 450 (my=C2
-
> and Lycomings=C2-
> redline). I could easily get into the 430's in climb and have=C2
-
> to nose over=C2-
> and=C2-
> or throttle back to arrest the CHT rise. When I had the EI CHT=C2
-
> gauge I never=C2-
> saw anything above 390.=C2-
>=C2-
> After reworking the ramps I do expect to go faster, climb > higher
=C2-
> and do it=C2-
> all=C2-
> with 1/3 flaps deployed for less gallons per hour. I just had > to
=C2-
> throw that=C2-
> in=C2-
> in case there aren't enough emotionally loaded topics to write=C2
-
> about.=C2-
>=C2-
> John Horton=C2-
> HC Cheetah=C2-
> Sensenich Prop=C2-
>=C2-
> ----- Original Message -----=C2-
>=C2-
> From: Gil Alexander=C2-
>=C2-
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=C2-
>=C2-
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 8:41 PM=C2-
>=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Gary,=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> How many STCs have you installed with poor/bad/wrong=C2-
> instructions? And the CHT/EGT monitor STCs are quite "generic" not=C2-
> really airframe specific.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> My latest one was my Plane Power voltage regulator. Works=C2-
> fine, but needed spacers to clear the "bumps" on the fire wall - > hardly
=C2-
> a drop-in exact replacement for the non flat bottom mechanical > regulator
=C2-
> - and no mention in the STC instructions.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Your plane seems to be the only test case reporting the=C2-
> problem. I'm happy with the Insight GEM in mine with it's probes that=C2
-
> touch the thermowell bottom like I believe the Lycoming test bayonet=C2
-
> probes did during their certification.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> As an electronics engineer, I know I would not design=C2-
> sensitive millivolts equipment using grounded sensors.... but that's=C2
-
0A> just me.... and my stuff is (or has been) working in military aircraft
=C2-
> and space vehicles....:^)=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> gil A=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> PS ...I like the GEM unit, but I have the "bars only" version=C2
-
> - I would prefer the version with numbers - a probable future upgrade.=C2
-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> PPS Sorry about the formatting of the mV chart in my > previous
=C2-
> e-mail=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Here is an alternate link to another table of National=C2-
> Institute of Standards and Technology output voltages from a Type J=C2-
> thermocouple -=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> This shows how small the DC voltages are that we are=C2-
> measuring.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> At 05:40 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:=C2-
> There is something else going on here in your plane - and=C2
-
> since we are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would personally=C2
-
> vote for grounding issues.=C2=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> MY PLANE? =C2 Ok, maybe your right. =C2 The grounds in=C2
-
> installed according to the STC were done wrong. =C2 Maybe the probes=C2
-
> grounding against brand new cylinders had corrosion built up in them.=C2
-
> =C2=C2-
>=C2-
>A
0
> Maybe planes experiencing CHT readings higher on a JPI than=C2
-
> on an EI also followed the installation instructions.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> How about you doing your own testing and report your own=C2-
> results?=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> -----Original Message-----=C2-
>=C2-
> From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>=C2-
>=C2-
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=C2-
>=C2-
> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:03 pm=C2-
>=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> This is only true if, and it's a big IF, the temperatures=C2
-
> displayed on todays instrumentation "WOULD" have displayed the same=C2-
> temperatures as those recorded by Lycoming technicians=C3, on the=C2-
> instrumentation used by Lycoming. =C3,=C2=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Gary... I don't belief that is a big "IF"...=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> The electrical characteristics of a type J thermocouple > have
=C2-
> been well known from long before WWII.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> The electrical instrumentation bit has not changed over the=C2
-
> years as far as the basic thermocouple, especially when used in an=C2-
> engine test cell.=C2 I bet Lycoming had individual CHT me
ters > directly=C2-
> connected to the probes, none of this fancy digital switching, > scanning
=C2-
> stuff....:^)=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Today the probes and the interconnect may be different, but=C2
-
> the a type J thermocouple has always created the same amount of > voltage
=C2-
> due to physics.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> There is something else going on here in your plane - and=C2
-
> since we are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would personally=C2
-
> vote for grounding issues.=C2 You can see from the table below that > 1
0=C2-
> degrees Centigrade is about a 1/2 milliVolt change.=C2 Try a direct=C2
-
> wire from GND on your EI gauge to the engine.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> This is from Sandia labs...=C2 gil A=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 ITS-90 Table for type J=C2 thermocouple=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 =C2=B0C=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 0=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 1=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 2=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 3=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 4=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 5=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 6=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 7=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 8=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 9=C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 10=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
=C2 =C2 =C2 3DC2 =C2 > =C2=C2-
> =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2 =C2
=C2-
>=C2-
> Thermoelectric Voltage in mV=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 =C2 0=C2 0.000=C2 0.050=C2 0.101=C2 0.151=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 0.202=C2 0.253=C2 0.303=C2 0.354=C2 0.405=C2=C2-
> 0.456=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 0.507=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 10=C2 0.507=C2 0.558=C2 0.609=C2 0.660=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 0.711=C2 0.762=C2 0.814=C2 0.865=C2 0.916=C2=C2-
> 0.968=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 1.019=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 20=C2 1.019=C2 1.071=C2-
>=C2-
> 1.122=C2 1.174=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 1.226=C2 1.277=C2 1.329=C2 1.381=C2 1.433=C2=C2-
> 1.485=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 1.537=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 30=C2 1.537=C2 1.589=C2 1.641=C2 1.693=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 1.745=C2 1.797=C2 1.849=C2 1.902=C2 1.954=C2=C2-
> 2.006=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 2.059=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 40=C2 2.059=C2 2.111=C2 2.164=C2 2.216=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 2.269=C2 2.322=C2 2.374=C2 2.427=C2 2.480=C2=C2-
> 2.532=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 2.585=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 50=C2 2.585=C2 2.638=C2 2.691=C2 2.744=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 2.797=C2 2.850=C2 2.903=C2 2.956=C2 3.009=C2=C2-
> 3.062=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 3.116=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 60=C2 3.116=C2 3.169=C2 3.222=C2 3.275=C2
>=C2-
> 3.329=C2 3.382=C2 3.436=C2 3.489=C2 3.543=C2=C2-
> 3.596=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 3.650=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 70=C2 3.650=C2 3.703=C2 3.757=C2 3.810=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 3.864=C2 3.918=C2 3.971=C2 4.025=C2 4.079=C2=C2-
> 4.133=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 4.187=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 80=C2 4.187=C2 4.240=C2 4.294=C2 4.348=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 4.402=C2 4.456=C2 4.510=C2 4.564=C2 4.618=C2=C2-
> 4.672=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 4.726=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 90=C2 4.726=C2 4.781=C2 4.835=C2 4.889=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 4.943=C2 4.997=C2 5.052=C2 5.106=C2 5.160=C2=C2-
> 5.215=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 5.269=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 100=C2 5.269=C2 5.323=C2 5.378=C2 5.432=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 5.487=C2 5.541=C2 5.595=C2 5.650=C2 5.705=C2=C2-
> 5.759=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 5.814=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 110=C2 5.814=C2 5.868=C2 5.923=C2 5.977=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 6.032=C2 6.087=C2 6.141=C2 6.196=C2 6.251=C2=C2-
> 6.306=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 6.360=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 120=C2 6.360=C2 6.415=C2 6.470=C2 6.525=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 6.579=C2 6.634=C2 6.689=C2 6.744=C2 6.799=C2=C2-
> 6.854=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 6.909=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 130=C2 6.909=C2 6.964=C2 7.019=C2 7.074=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 7.129=C2 7.184=C2 7.239=C2 7.294=C2 7.349=C2
> 7.404=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 7.459=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 140=C2 7.4590 7.514=C2 7.569=C2 7.624=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 7.679=C2 7.734=C2 7.789=C2 7.844=C2 7.900=C2=C2-
> 7.955=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 8.010=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 150=C2 8.010=C2 8.065=C2 8.120=C2 8.175=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 8.231=C2 8.286=C2 8.341=C2 8.396=C2 8.452=C2=C2-
> 8.507=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 8.562=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 160=C2 8.562=C2 8.618=C2 8.673=C2 8.728=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 8.783=C2 8.839=C2 8.894=C2 8.949=C2 9.005=C2=C2-
> 9.060=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 9.115=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 170=C2 9.115=C2 9.171=C2 9.226=C2 9.282=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 9.337=C2 9.392=C2 9.448=C2 9.503=C2 9.559=C2=C2-
> 9.614=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 9.669=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 180=C2 9.669=C2 9.725=C2 9.780=C2 9.836=C2=C2-
>=C2-
> 9.891=C2 9.947 10.002 10.057 10.113 10.168 10.224=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 190 10.224 10.279 10.335 10.390 10.446 10.501 10.557 10.612 10.668
=C2-
>=C2-
> 10.723 10.779=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 200 10.779 10.834 10.890 10.945 11.001 11.056 11.112 11.167 11.223
=C2-
>=C2-
> 11.278 11.334=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 210 11.334 11.389 11.445 11.501 11.556 11.612 11.667 11.723 11.778
=C2-
>=C2-
> 11.834 11.889=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 220 11.889 11.945 12.000 12.056 12.111 12.167 12.222 12.278 12.334
=C2-
>=C2-=0
A
> 12.389 12.445=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 230 12.445 12.500 12.556 12.611 12.667 12.722 12.778 12.833 12.889
=C2-
>=C2-
> 12.944 13.000=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 240 13.000 13.056 13.111 13.167 13.222 13.278 13.333 13.389 13.444
=C2-
>=C2-
> 13.500 13.555=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 250 13.555 13.611 13.666 13.722 13.777 13.833 13.888 13.944 13.999
=C2-
>=C2-
> 14.055 14.110=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 260 14.110 14.166 14.221 14.277 14.332 14.388 14.443 14.499 14.554
=C2-
>=C2-
> 14.609 14.665=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 270 14.665 14.720 14.776 14.831 14.887 14.942 14.998 15.053 15.109
=C2-
>=C2-
> 15.164 15.219=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 280 15.219 15.275 15.330 15.386 15.441 15.496 15.552 15.607 15.663
=C2-
>=C2-
> 15.718 15.773=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2 290 15.773 15.829 15.884 15.940 15.995 16.050 16.106 16.161 16.=C2
-
>=C2-
> 216=C2-
>=C2-
> 16.272 16.327=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
=C2-
>=C2-
> p://forums.matronics.com=C2-
>=C2-
> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> --------------------------------------------------------------------=C2
-
>=C2-
> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.=C2-
> ?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc> %3D
6=C2-
> 68072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62"> See yours in just 2=C2
-
> easy steps!=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> href="=C2-
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=C2-
=0
A> ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=C2-
>=C2-
> href="=C2-
> http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> href="=C2-
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution=C2-
> ">http://www.matronics.com/c=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://> www.
m=C2-
> atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=C2-
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=C2-
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://> www.matronics.com/
c=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
=C2-
> -=C2-
> 3/28/2009 7:16 AM=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
=C2-
> ---=C2-
> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://> www.
m=C2-
> atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=C2-
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=C2-
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://> www.matronics.com/
c=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
=C2-
> -----=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Checked by AVG.=C2-
> 3/28/2009 7:16 AM=C2-
>=C2-
> ________________________________ Message 2 > ___________________________
__________=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Time: 07:21:51 AM PST US=C2-
> From: Thomas Campbell <airman@appledumplings.com>=C2-
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> #1 you guy
s really need to learn how to cut the uneeded part of the=C2-
> original message when you reply. It takes 10 seconds. I know at > least on
e=C2-
> of you guys is stubborn because of old GG issues. But man I have > tried t
o=C2-
> read this forum for some time and it is quite annoying. But on a day > lik
e=C2-
> today where many do it .. it is not just annoying it is unbearable and=C2
-
> unreadable.=C2-
>=C2-
> With that said. I recently installed a JPI EDM 700 I previously had > an
=C2-
> alcor EGT only. I am seeing 450 on the back cylinders and=C2-
> 380-400 on the front sometimes in cruise if I lean=C2-
> aggresively.(I have not seen it get higher in climb) Even with > keeping i
t=C2-
> a bit rich I run 430 on the back.=C2-
>=C2-
> My history. Atlanta,Ga AA5b 1976 10 years 450 SMOH. Good compressions=C2
-
> all 74 or higher last 3 annuals with one exception of a 72. Had high > oil
=C2-
> temps(1-2 needle widths below redline in summer) and put new baffle > seal
=C2-
> and sealed some seams in the side baffles. I still=C2-
> wonder about the baffle sheets on the bottom. It doesnt fit well > next to
=C2-
> the case in the back bottom. Anyway we checked the gauge and > vernatherm
=C2-
> and I gave up and got a bigger cooler. Which helped, now 200-210.=C2-
> After all this I put in the JPI and get the above temps. I have not > gone
=C2-
> back and had someone check to see
if the ground was installed > correctly. I=C2-
> will do this soon. My current A&P also made a comment about the JPI.=C2
-
> Saying he has had a few people install them and get so distraught that=C2
-
> they seel theri airplanes or do overhaul early. He seems less > concerned.
=C2-
> And he has looked for any overheat indicators.=C2-
> I personly have been running it a bit rich because until I am > assured it
=C2-
> is instrumentation It just makes me nervous.=C2-
>=C2-
> Thomas=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ________________________________ Message 3 > ___________________________
__________=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Time: 07:48:50 AM PST US=C2-
> From: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>> #1 you guys really need to learn how to cut the uneeded part of the=C2
-
>> original message when you reply.=C2-
>=C2-
> You are so right. I do it on the GG but have been guilty of not > doing i
t=C2-
> here.=C2-
>=C2-
> Cliff=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> --> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.=C2-
>=C2-
> The Professional version does not have this message=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ________________________________ Message 4 > ___________________________
__________=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Time: 09:42:54 AM PST US=C2-
> From: "923te" <923te@att.net>=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: reciting thread posts=C2-
>=C2-
> I began leaving in all
the reference posts because it made it easy for=C2-
> me to forward the thread to someone interested but not on the list. > One
=C2-
> copy in one post and he has the whole thread to date.=C2-
>=C2-
> I don't understand why you would be annoyed. The newest post is the=C2-
> first at the top. If you aren't interested in the older post don't > read
=C2-
> further.=C2-
>=C2-
> Why be annoyed. I don't get why it annoyes??=C2-
> ned=C2-
> ----- Original Message -----=C2-
> From: Thomas Campbell=C2-
> To: TeamGrumman-List Digest Server=C2-
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:12 AM=C2-
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> <airman@appledumplings.com>=C2-
>=C2-
> #1 you guys really need to learn how to cut the uneeded part of the=C2
-
> original message when you reply. It takes 10 seconds. I know at least=C2
-
> one=C2-
> of you guys is stubborn because of old GG issues. But man I have > tried
=C2-
> to=C2-
> read this forum for some time and it is quite annoying. But on a day=C2
-
> like=C2-
> today where many do it .. it is not just annoying it is unbearable > and
=C2-
> unreadable.=C2-
>=C2-
> With that said. I recently installed a JPI EDM 700 I previously had=C2
-
> an=C2-
> alcor EGT only. I am seeing 450 on the back cylinders and=C2-
> 380-400 on the front sometimes in cruise if I lean=C2-
> aggresively.(I
have not seen it get higher in climb) Even with > keeping=C2-
> it=C2-
> a bit rich I run 430 on the back.=C2-
>=C2-
> My history. Atlanta,Ga AA5b 1976 10 years 450 SMOH. Good compressions=C2
-
> all 74 or higher last 3 annuals with one exception of a 72. Had high=C2
-
> oil=C2-
> temps(1-2 needle widths below redline in summer) and put new baffle=C2
-
> seal=C2-
> and sealed some seams in the side baffles. I still=C2-
> wonder about the baffle sheets on the bottom. It doesnt fit well next=C2
-
> to=C2-
> the case in the back bottom. Anyway we checked the gauge and=C2-
> vernatherm=C2-
> and I gave up and got a bigger cooler. Which helped, now 200-210.=C2-
> After all this I put in the JPI and get the above temps. I have not=C2
-
> gone=C2-
> back and had someone check to see if the ground was installed=C2-
> correctly. I=C2-
> will do this soon. My current A&P also made a comment about the JPI.=C2
-
> Saying he has had a few people install them and get so distraught > that
=C2-
> they seel theri airplanes or do overhaul early. He seems less=C2-
> concerned.=C2-
> And he has looked for any overheat indicators.=C2-
> I personly have been running it a bit rich because until I am assured=C2
-
> it=C2-
> is instrumentation It just makes me nervous.=C2-
>=C2-
> Thomas=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ________________________________ Message
5 > _____________________________________=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Time: 10:27:18 AM PST US=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
> From: teamgrumman@aol.com=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two=C2-
> different styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard P-100, that he > teste
d an=C2-
> d=C2-
> found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large > difference
s in=C2-
>=C2-
> temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with > the f
ixed=C2-
>=C2-
> probe.=C2- And all the accusations, or implications at least, are > that
the=C2-
>=C2-
> fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a > r
eal=C2-
> possibility that it could be due to something completely=C2-
> different.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Cliff=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Finally, Cliff, you hit the nail on the head. =C2-I agree. =C2-There >
is=C2-
> a real possibility there is something going on that could account > for th
e di=C2-
> fferences in temperatures. =C2-I doubt, seriously, that it is just > the
pro=C2-
> bes.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> And. =C2-It has nothing to do with a recent change in vendors. =C2-I >
fir=C2-
> st noticed this difference around 1995 when I installed my first JPI > 700
.=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> And. =C2-It isn't just my plane. =C2-I installed a JPI 700 in one > C
omanc=C2-
> he and a JPI 800 in another Comanche in place of previously > installed EI
uni=C2-
> ts. =C2-Both owners came back saying their engines were running hot. >
=C2=C2-
> -One owner, the 700, bought another EI and had me put it in instead. >
=C2=C2-
> -The other owner was willing to accept the higher readings.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Gil. =C2-Just how many grounds is enough? =C2-Are you concerned > abou
t gr=C2-
> ound loops? =C2-I've run the ground to a common avionics ground AND > to
the=C2-
> ground on the engine from the avionics ground. A=C2-
> 0No change. =C2-I've tried just the avionics ground. =C2-I've tried >
just=C2-
> the engine ground. =C2-No change. =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Like I wrote in the STAR, the temps start out the same before start-> up.
=C2=C2-
> -The JPI temps rise faster and to a higher reading than the EI temps.=C2
-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> And. =C2-There is no way to know the actual test set up used by > Lycomi
ng.=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> I have an old Gem in a box somewhere. =C2-It has no digital readout. >
=C2=C2-
> -Gil, if yours has no digital readout, with 25 degree per bar > accuracy,
ho=C2-
> w do you know what the temperature is? =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> And. Speculation: =C2-I would expect that the makers of these > analyzer
s to=C2-
> ok into consideration various millivolt differences. =C2-If they saw > d
iffe=C2-
> r
ences of 3 degrees, I doubt they cared.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> And. =C2-If this had only happened to one installation, then I would > l
ook=C2-
> at the installation. =C2-It is a universal experience that the JPI > rea
ds h=C2-
> igher. =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> -----Original Message-----=C2-
> From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>=C2-
> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 7:35 pm=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two=C2-
> different styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard P-100, that he > teste
d an=C2-
> d=C2-
> found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large > difference
s in=C2-
>=C2-
> temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with > the f
ixed=C2-
>=C2-
> probe.=C2- And all the accusations, or implications at least, are > that
the=C2-
> =0=C2-
> Afixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is > a
real=C2-
>=C2-
> possibility that it could be due to something completely=C2-
> different.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Cliff=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ----- Original Message -----=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> From:=C2-
> Gil=C2-
> Alexander=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:13=C2-
> PM=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs=C2-
> JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C
2
> Ned... I believe the GG post you refer to still references=C2-
> Gary's EI/JPI measurements....:^)=C2-
>=C2-
> He just says below that the EI=C2-
> non-bayonet probes read lower - which does not seem to be in=C2-
> dispute....:^)=C2-
>=C2-
> And do you really think Lycoming used a non-MIL-Spec=C2-
> probe, especially in the 60's, for certification?=C2- I vote for > prob
es=C2-
> that=C2-
> touch the cylinder.=C2-
>=C2-
> gil A=C2-
>=C2-
> At 07:05 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> I started this thread because of similar=C2-
> thread that was started on the GG. I understood one poster to say > tha
t h=C2-
> e=C2-
> too had experienced higher readings with JPI type probes that > actuall
y t=C2-
> ouch=C2-
> the thermowell. He had both in his Cheetah and found that the > probes
tha=C2-
> t=C2-
> touch the head actually give a higher reading.=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
> So in answer to Gil's post it appears that=C2-
> others have noted the diffenece in temp readings besides=C2-
> Gary.=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
> Someone at=C2-
> Lycoming needs to answer this question, at least the question of > the
typ=C2-
> e of=C2-
> probe they used. Right now we are just sp=C2-
> eculating on what type of probe=C2-
> they used.=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
> Ned=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
> Here is the post=2
0I refer=C2-
> to:=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
> -----=C2-
> Original Message -----=C2-
> From: John Horton=C2-
> Sent: Tuesday,=C2-
> March 24, 2009 9:19 PM=C2-
> Subject: RE: Tiger outlet ramps - More Info=C2-
> Req.=C2-
>=C2-
> Dave,=C2-
> I would direct you to look at=C2-
> http://www.bondline.org/wiki/Lower_Cowling_Split=C2-
> for=C2-
> info about reworking the exit ramps.=C2- That link will only > provid
e=C2-
> info=C2-
> about=C2-
> the metal exit ramps but that's half the=C2-
> options.=C2-
>=C2-
> When you mention that your temps are "warm" be sure to=C2-
> review the GG archives=C2-
> about JPI instrumentation vs EI instrumentation.=C2-
> There are differences in=C2-
> probe=C2-
> design that make JPI read higher that=C2-
> EI in what should be the same cylinder.=C2-
> So if you have JP CHT and think=C2-
> your running "warm" you might be just fine if=C2-
> you had EI CHT.=C2-=C2-
> Theres a good bit of reading in the archives on that=C2-
> topic.=C2-
> My=C2-
> consensus after reviewing (and I might still have it wrong)=C2-
> is that JP CHT=C2-
> reads=C2-
> hotter than EI due to the fact that the JP CHT=C2-
> probe actually is spring=C2-
> loaded=C2-
> to touch the cyl head. The EI CHT=C2-
> probe screws into a sp
ace in the cyl head.=C2-
> I=C2-
> have had both in my plane=C2-
> (Cheetah) and can verify that fact. The probes are=C2-
> different and the JP=C2-
> touches the head and reads hotter.=C2-
>=C2-
> So if you have=C2- J=C2-
> P CHT gauge=C2-
> and it reads 420 in climb your most likely fine.=C2-
> (Assuming the temp goes=C2-
> down when you level out) The same plane may well read=C2-
> 385 with a EI CHT=C2-
> and it is fine also. Be sure to know your temp source (EI=C2-
> or=C2-
> JP) and=C2-
> read the archives to get a feel for the differences before you go=C2
-
> and=C2-
> rework your exit ramps. They might be fine.=C2-
>=C2-
> I recently=C2-
> reworked my exit ramps on my Cheetah due to a "warmer" than=C2-
> I'd=C2-
> like=C2-
> #4 cyl, cracks in my metal exit ramps and a newly minted=C2-
> A&P ticket that=C2-
> allowed=C2-
> me to do it. I have only flown it once and=C2-
> the results looked promising.=C2-
> Tommorrow I hope to gather more flight=C2-
> data. I currently have a JP CHT/EGT=C2-
> and=C2-
> in climb prior to the ramp=C2-
> work could occasionally hit 450 (my and Lycomings=C2-
> redline).=C2- I could=C2-
> easily get into the 430's in climb and have to nose over=C2-
> and=C2-
> or=C2-
> throttle back to20arrest the CHT rise.=C2- When I had the EI CHT > ga
uge=C2-
> I=C2-
> never=C2-
> saw anything above 390.=C2-
>=C2-
> After reworking the ramps I do=C2-
> expect to go faster, climb higher and do it=C2-
> all=C2-
> with 1/3 flaps=C2-
> deployed for less gallons per hour. I just had to throw that=C2-
> in=C2-
> in=C2-
> case there aren't enough emotionally loaded topics to write=C2-
> about.=C2-
>=C2-
> John Horton=C2-
> HC Cheetah=C2-
> Sensenich Prop=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2------ Original Message -----=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =0=C2-
> AFrom: Gil Alexander=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 8:41 PM=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Gary,=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> How many STCs have you installed with poor/bad/wrong=C2-
> instructions?=C2- And the CHT/EGT monitor STCs are quite > "generic
" n=C2-
> ot=C2-
> really airframe specific.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> My latest one was my Plane Power voltage regulator.=C2- Works fine,=C2
-
> but needed spacers to clear the "bumps" on the fire wall - > hardly a
=C2-
> drop-in exact replacement for the non flat bottom mechanical > regula
tor0
> -=C2-
> and no mention in the STC instructions.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Your plane seems to be the only test case reporting the problem.=C2-=C2
-
> I'm happy with the Insight GEM in mine with it's probes that > touch
the=C2-
>=C2-
> thermowell bottom like I believe the Lycoming test bayonet > probes d
id=C2-
> during their certification.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> As an electronics engineer, I know I would not design sensitive=C2-
> millivolts equipment using grounded sensors.... but that's just > me.
...=C2-
> and=C2-
> my stuff is (or has been) working in military aircraft and space=C2
-
> vehicles....:^)=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> gil A=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> PS ...I like the GEM unit, but I have the "bars only" version - I=C2-
> would prefer the version with numbe=C2-
> rs - a probable future upgrade.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> PPS=C2- Sorry about the formatting of the mV chart in my previous=C2-
> e-mail=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Here is an alternate link to another table of National Institute of=C2-
> Standards and Technology output voltages from a Type J > thermocouple
=C2-
> -=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf=C2-
>=C2-=0
A
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> This shows how small the DC voltages are that we are=C2-
> measuring.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> At 05:40 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we=C2-
> are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would > personally vo
te=C2-
> for=C2-
> grounding issues.=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> MY PLANE? =C3=82 Ok, maybe your right. =C3=82 The grounds in insta
lled=C2-
> according to the STC were done wrong. =C3=82 Maybe the probes >
ground=C2-
> ing=C2-
> against brand new cylinders had corrosion built up in them. > =C3
=82=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Maybe planes experiencing CHT readings higher on a JPI than on an EI=C2
-
> also followed the installation instructions.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> How about you doing your own testing and report your own=C2-
> results?=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> -----Original Message-----=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>=C2-
>=C2-
> =2=C2-
> 0=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:03 pm=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> This is only true if, and it's a big IF, the temperatures=C2-
> displayed on todays instrumentation "WOULD" have displayed > the
sam=C2-
> e=C2-
> temperatures as those recorded by Lycoming technicians=C3=83
=C2-
> =9A on the=C2-
> instrumentation used by Lycoming. =C3=83=9A=C3=82=C2-
=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Gary... I don't belief that is a big "IF"...=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> The electrical characteristics of a type J thermocouple have been=C2-
> well known from long before WWII.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> The electrical instrumentation bit has not changed over the years as=C2
-
> far as the basic thermocouple, especially when used in an > engine
tes=C2-
> t=C2-
> cell.=C3=82=C2- I bet Lycoming had individual CHT meters > di
rectly=C2-
> connected=C2-
> to the probes, none of this fancy digital switching, scanning=C2
-
> stuff....:^)=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Today the probes and the interconnect may be different, but the a=C2-
> type J thermocouple has always created the same amount of > voltage
du=C2-
> e to=C2-
> physics.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> There is something else going on here in your plane -=2
0and since we=C2-
> are dealing with fractions of mil=C2-
> liVolts, I would personally vote for=C2-
> grounding issues.=C3=82=C2- You can see from the table below
> that=C2-
> 10=C2-
> degrees Centigrade is about a 1/2 milliVolt change.=C3=82=C2-
> Try=C2-
> a direct=C2-
> wire from GND on your EI gauge to the engine.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> This is from Sandia labs...=C3=82=C2- gil A=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 ITS-90 Table for type J=C3=82=C2- thermocouple=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 =C3=82=C2=B0C=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=8
2 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82 > =C3=82=C2-
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 1=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 2=C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 > =C3=C2-
> =82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 3=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 4=C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 > =C3=C2-
> =82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 5=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 6=C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 > =C3=C2-
> =82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 7=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 8=C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 > =C3=C2-
> =82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 9=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 10=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =3
DC3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 > =C3=82
=C3=C2-
> =82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 > =C3=82=C2-
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Thermoelectric Voltage in mV=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82=C2- 0.000=C3=82=C2- 0.050
=C3=82=C2- 0.101=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 0.151=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 0.202=C3=82=C2- 0.253=C3=82=C2- 0.303=C3=82=C2- 0.354
=C3=82=C2- 0.40=C2-
> 5=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 0.456=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 0.507=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 10=C3=82=C2- 0.507=C3=82=C2- 0.558=C3=82
=C2- 0.609=C3=82=C2-
> =C2- 0.660=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 0.711=C3=82=C2- 0.762=C3=82=C2- 0.814=C3=82=C2- 0.8652
=C2- 0.916=C3=C2-
> =82=C2-=C2-
> 0.968=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 1.019=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 20=C3=82=C2- 1.019=C3=82=C2- 1.071=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-1.122=C3=82=C2- 1.174=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 1.226=C3=82=C2- 1.277=C3=82=C2- 1.329=C3=82=C2- 1.381
=C3=82=C2- 1.43=C2-
> 3=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 1.485=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 1.537=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 30=C3=82=C2- 1.537=C3=82=C2- 1.589=C3=82
=C2- 1.641=C3=82=C2-
> =C2- 1.693=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-=0
A
>=C2-
> 1.745=C3=82=C2- 1.797=C3=82=C2- 1.849=C3=82=C2- 1.902
=C3=82=C2- 1.95=C2-
> 4=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 2.006=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 2.059=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 40=C3=82=C2- 2.059=C3=82=C2- 2.111=C3=82
=C2- 2.164=C3=82=C2-
> =C2- 2.216=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 2.269=C3=82=C2- 2.322=C3=82=C2- 2.374=C3=82=C2- 2.427
=C3=82=C2- 2.48=C2-
> 0=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 2.532=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 2.585=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 50=C3=82=C2- 2.585=C3=82=C2- 2.638=C3=82
=C2- 2.691=C3=82=C2-
> =C2- 2.744=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 2.797=C3=82=C2- 2.850=C3=82=C2- 2.903=C3=82=C2- 2.956
=C3=82=C2- 3.00=C2-
> 9=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 3.062=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 3.116=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 60=C3=82=C2- 3.116=C3=82=C2- 3.169=C3=82
=C2- 3.222=C3=82=C2-
> =C2- 3.275=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 3.329=C3=82=C2- 3.382=C3=82=C2- 3.436=C3=82=C2- 3.489
=C3=82=C2- 3.54=C2-
> 3=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 3.596=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 3.650=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 70=C3=82=C2- 3.650=C3=82=C2- 3.703=C3=82
=C2- 3.757=C3=82=C2-
> =C2- 3.810=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 3.864=C3=82=C2- 3.918=C3=82=C2- 3.971=C3=82=C2- 4.025
=C3=82=C2- 4.07=C2-
> 9=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 4.133=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 4.187A
0
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 80=C3=82=C2- 4.187=C3=82=C2- 4.240=C3=82
=C2- 4.294=C3=82=C2-
> =C2- 4.348=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 4.402=C3=82=C2- 4.456=C3=82=C2- 4.510=C3=82=C2- 4.564
=C3=82=C2- 4.61=C2-
> 8=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 4.672=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 4.726=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 90=C3=82=C2- 4.726=C3=82=C2- 4.781=C3=82
=C2- 4.835=C3=82=C2-
> =C2- 4.8=C2-
> 89=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 4.943=C3=82=C2- 4.997=C3=82=C2- 5.052=C3=82=C2- 5.106
=C3=82=C2- 5.16=C2-
> 0=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 5.215=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 5.269=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 100=C3=82=C2- 5.269=C3=82=C2- 5.323=C3=82=C2-
5.378=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 5.432=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 5.487=C3=82=C2- 5.541=C3=82=C2- 5.595=C3=82=C2- 5.650
=C3=82=C2- 5.70=C2-
> 5=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 5.759=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 5.814=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 110=C3=82=C2- 5.814=C3=82=C2- 5.868=C3=82=C2-
5.923=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 5.977=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 6.032=C3=82=C2- 6.087=C3=82=C2- 6.141=C3=82=C2- 6.196
=C3=82=C2- 6.25=C2-
> 1=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 6.306=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 6.360=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 120=C3=82=C2- 6.360=C3=82=C2- 6.415=C3=82=C2-
6.470=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 6.525=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 6.579=C3=8
2=C2- 6.634=C3=82=C2- 6.689=C3=82=C2- 6.744=C3=82=C2- 6.
79=C2-
> 9=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 6.854=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 6.909=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 130=C3=82=C2- 6.909=C3=82=C2- 6.964=C3=82=C2-
7.019=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 7.074=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 7.129=C3=82=C2- 7.184=C3=82=C2- 7.239=C3=82=C2- 7.294
=C3=82=C2- 7.34=C2-
> 9=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 7.404=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 7.459=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 140=C3=82=C2- 7.4590 7.514=C3=82=C2- 7.569=C3=8
2=C2- 7.624=C3=C2-
> =82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 7.679=C3=82=C2- 7.734=C3=82=C2- 7.789=C3=82=C2- 7.844
=C3=82=C2- 7.90=C2-
> 0=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 7.955=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 8.010=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 150=C3=82=C2- 8.010=C3=82=C2- 8.065=C3=82=C2-
8.120=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 8.175=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 8.231=C3=82=C2- 8.286=C3=82=C2- 8.341=C3=82=C2- 8.396
=C3=82=C2- 8.45=C2-
> 2=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 8.507=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 8.562=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 160=C3=82=C2- 8.562=C3=82=C2- 8.618=C3=82=C2-
8.673=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 8.728=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 8.783=C3=82=C2- 8.839=C3=82=C2- 8.894=C3=82=C2- 8.949
=C3=82=C2- 9.00=C2-
> 5=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 9.060=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 9.115=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 170=C3=82=C2-209=C2-
> ..115=C3=82=C2- 9.171=C3=82=C2- 9.226=C3=82=C2- 9.282
=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 9.337=C3=82=C2- 9.392=C3=82=C2- 9.448=C3=82=C2- 9.503
=C3=82=C2- 9.55=C2-
> 9=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 9.614=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 9.669=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 180=C3=82=C2- 9.669=C3=82=C2- 9.725=C3=82=C2-
9.780=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 9.836=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 9.891=C3=82=C2- 9.947 10.002 10.057 10.113 10.168 10.224=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 190 10.224 10.279 10.335 10.390 10.446 10.501 10.557 10.612 > 1
0.668=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 10.723 10.779=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 200 10.779 10.834 10.890 10.945 11.001 11.056 11.112 11.167 > 1
1.223=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 11.278 11.334=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 210 11.334 11.389 11.445 11.501 11.556 11.612 11.667 11.723 > 1
1.778=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 11.834 11.889=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 220 11.889 11.945 12.000 12.056 12.111 12.167 12.222 12.278 > 1
2.334=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 12.389 12.445=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 230 12.445 12.500 12.556 12.611 12.667 12.722 12.778 12.833 > 1
2.889=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 12.944 13.000=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 240 13.000 13.056 13.111 13.167 13.222 13.278 13.333 13.389 > 1
3.444=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 13.500 13.555=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 250 13.555 13.611
13.666 13.722 13.777 13.833 13.888 13.944 > 13.999=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 14.055 14.110=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 260 14.110 14.166 14.221 14.277 14.332 14.388 14.443 14.499 > 1
4.554=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 14.609 14.665=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 270 14.665 14.720 14.776 14.831 14.887 14.942 14.998 15.053 > 1
5.109=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 15.164 15.219=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 280 15.219 15.275 15.330 15.386 15.441 15.496 15.552 15.607 > 1
5.663=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 15.718 15.773=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 290 15.773 15.829 15.884 15.940 15.995 16.050 16.106 16.161 16.
=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 216=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 16.272 16.327=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/=C2-
> Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> p://forums.matronics.com=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.=C2-
> ?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx> %
3Fs=C2-
> c%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62">=C2-
> See yours in just 2 easy steps!=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> href="=C2-
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=C2-
> ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> href="=C2-
> http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> href="=C2-
> http://www.mat
ronics.com/contribution=C2-
> ">http://www.matronics.com/c=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =====3D=====C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 3/28/2009 7:16 AM=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 0 - List Contribution Web Site -=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ________________________________ Message 6 > ___________________________
__________=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Time: 10:46:44 AM PST US=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
> From: teamgrumman@aol.com=C2-
>=C2-
> Just to add to the mix. =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> On the flight tests, we also measured Oil Temp and OAT with the EI. > =C
2-Oi=C2-
> l temp was measured at the oil filter adaptor and OAT was a probe > stuck
out=C2-
> the canopy at the top. =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Oil temp on the EI was within 5 degrees of the oil temp measured by > the
JPI=C2-
> in the front right galley plug.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Oat on the JPI was slightly colder, 1 to 4 degrees, with the JPI > probed
loca=C2-
> ted under the left wing at the most forward inspection cover.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> -----Original Message-----=C2-
> From: teamgrumman@aol.com=C2-
> Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:23 am=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two=C2-
> different styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard20P-100, that he > test
ed an=C2-
> d=C2-
> found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large > difference
s in=C2-
>=C2-
> temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with > the f
ixed=C2-
>=C2-
> probe.=C2- And all the accusations, or implications at least, are > that
the=C2-
>=C2-
> fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a > r
eal=C2-
> possibility that it could be due to something completely=C2-
> different.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Cliff=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Finally, Cliff, you hit the nail on the head. =C2-I agree. =C2-There >
is=C2-
> a real possibility there is something going on that could account > for th
e di=C2-
> fferences in temperatures. =C2-I doubt, seriously, that it is just > the
pro=C2-
> bes.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> And. =C2-It has nothing to do with=C2-
> a recent change in vendors. =C2-I first noticed this difference > around
19=C2-
> 95 when I installed my first JPI 700. =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> And. =C2-It isn't just my plane. =C2-I installed a JPI 700 in one > Co
manc=C2-
> he and a JPI 800 in another Comanche in place of previously > installed EI
uni=C2-
> ts. =C2-Both owners came back saying their engines were running hot. >
=C2=C2-
> -One owner, the 700, bought another EI and had me put it in instead. >
=C2=C2-
> -The other owner was willing to accept th
=C2-
> e higher readings.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Gil. =C2-Just how many grounds is enough? =C2-Are you concerned > abou
t gr=C2-
> ound loops? =C2-I've run the ground to a common avionics ground AND > to
the=C2-
> ground on the engine from the avionics ground. =C2-No change. =C2-I've
=C2-
> tried just the avionics ground. =C2-I've tried just the engine ground.
=C2-
> =C2-No change. =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Like I wrote in the STAR, the temps start out the same before start-> up.
=C2=C2-
> -The JPI temps rise faster and to a higher reading than the EI temps.=C2
-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> And. =C2-There is no way to know the actual test set up used by > Lycomi
ng.=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> I have an old Gem in a box somewhere. =C2-It has no digital readout. >
=C2=C2-
> -Gil, if yours has no digital readout, with 25 degree per bar > accuracy,
ho=C2-
> w do you know what the temperature is? =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> And. Speculation: =C2-I would expect that the makers of these > analyzer
s to=C2-
> ok into consideration various millivolt differences. =C2-If they saw > d
iffe=C2-
> rences of 3 degrees, I=C2-
> doubt they cared.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> And. =C2-If this had only happened to one installation, then I would > l
ook=C2-
> at the installation. =C2-It is a universal experience that the JPI > rea
ds h=C2-
> igher. =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> -----Original Message
-----=C2-
>=C2-
> From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 7:35 pm=C2-
>=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two=C2-
> different styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard P-100, that he > teste
d an=C2-
> d=C2-
> found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large > difference
s in=C2-
>=C2-
> temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with > the f
ixed=C2-
>=C2-
> probe.=C2- And all the accusations, or implications at least, are > that
the=C2-
>=C2-
> fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a > r
eal=C2-
> possibility that it could be due to something completely=C2-
> different.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Cliff=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ----- Original Message -----=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> From:=C2-
> Gil=C2-
> Alexander=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:13=C2-
> PM=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs=C2-
> JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Ned... I believe the GG post you refer to still references=C2-
>=C2-
> Gary's EI/JPI measurements....:^)=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> He just says below that the EI=C2-
> non-bayonet probes read lower - which does not seem to be in=C2-
> dispute....:^)=C2-0A
>=C2-
>=C2-
> And do yo=C2-
> u really think Lycoming used a non-MIL-Spec=C2-
> probe, especially in the 60's, for certification?=C2- I vote for > prob
es=C2-
> that=C2-
> touch the cylinder.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> gil A=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> At 07:05 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> I started this thread because of similar=C2-
> thread that was started on the GG. I understood one poster to say > tha
t h=C2-
> e=C2-
> too had experienced higher readings with JPI type probes that > actuall
y t=C2-
> ouch=C2-
> the thermowell. He had both in his Cheetah and found that the > probes
tha=C2-
> t=C2-
> touch the head actually give a higher reading.=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
> So in answer to Gil's post it appears that=C2-
> others have noted the diffenece in temp readings besides=C2-
> Gary.=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
> Someone at=C2-
> Lycoming needs to answer this question, at least the question of > the
typ=C2-
> e of=C2-
> probe they used. Right now we are just speculating on what type > of pr
obe=C2-
>=C2-
> they used.=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
> Ned=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
> Here is the post I refer=C2-
> to:=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
> -----=C2-
> Original Message -----=C2-0A
> From: John Horton=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Sent: Tuesday,=C2-
> March 24, 2009 9:19 PM=C2-
>=C2-
> Subject: RE: Tiger outlet ramps - More Info=C2-
> Req.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Dave,=C2-
>=C2-
> I would direct you to look at=C2-
>=C2-
> http://www.bondline.org/wiki/Lower_Cowling_Split=C2-
>=C2-
> for=C2-
> info about reworking the exit ramps.=C2- That link will only > provid
e=C2-
> info=C2-
>=C2-
> about=C2-
>=C2-
> the metal exit ramps but that's half the=C2-
> options.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> When you mention=C2-
> that your temps are "warm" be sure to=C2-
> review the GG archives=C2-
>=C2-
> about JPI instrumentation vs EI instrumentation.=C2-
> There are differences in=C2-
>=C2-
> probe=C2-
>=C2-
> design that make JPI read higher that=C2-
> EI in what should be the same cylinder.=C2-
>=C2-
> So if you have JP CHT and think=C2-
> your running "warm" you might be just fine if=C2-
>=C2-
> you had EI CHT.=C2-=C2-
> Theres a good bit of reading in the archives on that=C2-
> topic.=C2-
>=C2-
> My=C2-
>=C2-
> consensus after reviewing (and I might still have it wrong)=C2-
> is that JP CHT=C2-
>=C2-
> reads=C2-
>=C2-
> hotter than EI due to the fact that the JP CHT=C2-
> probe actually is spring=C2-
>=C2-
> loaded=C2-
>=C2-
> to touch the cyl head. The EI CHT=C2-
> probe screws into a space in the cyl head.=C2-
>=C2-
> I=C2-
>=C2-
> have had both in my plane=C2-
> (Cheetah) and can verify that fact. The pro=C2-
> bes are=C2-
>=C2-
> different and the JP=C2-
> touches the head and reads hotter.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> So if you have=C2- JP CHT gauge=C2-
> and it reads 420 in climb your most likely fine.=C2-
>=C2-
> (Assuming the temp goes=C2-
> down when you level out) The same plane may well read=C2-
>=C2-
> 385 with a EI CHT=C2-
> and it is fine also. Be sure to know your temp source (EI=C2-
>=C2-
> or=C2-
>=C2-
> JP) and=C2-
> read the archives to get a feel for the differences before you go=C2
-
> and=C2-
>=C2-
> rework your exit ramps. They might be fine.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> I recently=C2-
> reworked my exit ramps on my Cheetah due to a "warmer" than=C2-
> I'd=C2-
>=C2-
> like=C2-
>=C2-
> #4 cyl, cracks=2=C2-
> 0in my metal exit ramps and a newly minted=C2-
> A&P ticket that=C2-
>=C2-
> allowed=C2-
>=C2-
> me to do it. I have only flown it once and=C2-
> the results looked promising.=C2-
>=C2-
> Tommorrow I hope to gather more flight=C2-
> data. I currently have a JP CHT/EGT=C2-
>=C2-
> and=C2-
>A
0
> in climb prior to the ramp=C2-
> work could occasionally hit 450 (my and Lycomings=C2-
>=C2-
> redline).=C2- I could=C2-
> easily get into the 430's in climb and have to nose over=C2-
>=C2-
> and=C2-
>=C2-
> or=C2-
> throttle back to arrest the CHT rise.=C2- When I had the EI CHT > gau
ge=C2-
> I=C2-
> never=C2-
>=C2-
> saw anything above 390.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> After reworking the ramps I do=C2-
> expect to go faster, climb higher and do it=C2-
>=C2-
> all=C2-
>=C2-
> with 1/3 flaps=C2-
> deployed for less gallons per hour. I just had to throw that=C2-
>=C2-
> in=C2-
>=C2-
> in=C2-
> case there aren't=C2-
> enough emotionally loaded topics to write=C2-
> about.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> John Horton=C2-
>=C2-
> HC Cheetah=C2-
>=C2-
> Sensenich Prop=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2------ Original Message -----=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> From: Gil Alexander=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 8:41 PM=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Gary,=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> How many STCs have you installed with poor/bad/wrong=C2-
> instr
uctions?=C2- And the CHT/EGT monitor STCs are quite > "generic" n=C2-
> ot=C2-
> really airframe specific.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> My lat=C2-
> est one was my Plane Power voltage regulator.=C2- Works fine,=C2-
> but needed spacers to clear the "bumps" on the fire wall - > hardly a
=C2-
> drop-in exact replacement for the non flat bottom mechanical > regula
tor=C2-
> -=C2-
> and no mention in the STC instructions.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Your plane seems to be the only test case reporting the problem.=C2-=C2
-
> I'm happy with the Insight GEM in mine with it's probes that > touch
the=C2-
>=C2-
> thermowell bottom like I believe the Lycoming test bayonet > probes d
id=C2-
> during their certification.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> As an electronics engineer, I know I would not design sensitive=C2-
> millivolts=C2-
> equipment using grounded sensors.... but that's just me.... and=C2-
> my stuff is (or has been) working in military aircraft and space=C2
-
> vehicles....:^)=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> gil A=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> PS ...I like the GEM unit, but I have the "bars only" version - I=C2-
> would prefer the version with numbers - a probable future > upgrade.
=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
0A> PPS=C2- Sorry about the formatting of the mV chart in my previous=C2
-
> e-mail=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Here is an alternate link to another table of National Institute of=C2-
> Standards and Technology output voltages from a Type J > thermocouple
=C2-
> -=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> This shows h=C2-
> ow small the DC voltages are that we are=C2-
> measuring.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> At 05:40 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we=C2-
> are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would > personally vo
te=C2-
> for=C2-
> grounding issues.=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> MY PLANE? =C3=82 Ok, maybe your right. =C3=82 The grounds in insta
lled=C2-
> according to the STC were done wrong. =C3=82 Maybe the probes >
ground=C2-
> ing=C2-
> 20 against brand new cylinders had corrosion built up in them. > =C
3=82=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Maybe planes experiencing CHT readings higher on a JPI than on an EI=C2
-
> also followed the installation instructions.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> How about=2
0you doing your own testing and report your own=C2-
> results?=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> -----Original Message-----=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:03 pm=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> This is only true if, and it's a big IF, the temperatures=C2-
> displayed on todays instrumentation "WOULD" have displayed > the
sam=C2-
> e=C2-
> =2=C2-
> 0 temperatures as those recorded by Lycoming technicians=C3=83=9A o
n=C2-
> the=C2-
> instrumentation used by Lycoming. =C3=83=9A=C3=82=C2-
=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Gary... I don't belief that is a big "IF"...=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> The electrical characteristics of a type J thermocouple have been=C2-
> well known from long before WWII.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> The electrical instrument=C2-
> ation bit has not changed over the years as=C2-
> far as the basic thermocouple, especially when used in an > engine
tes=C2-
> t=C2-
> cell.=C3=82=C2- I bet Lycoming had individual CHT meters > di
rectly=C2-
> connected=C2-
>
to the probes, none of this fancy digital switching, scanning=C2-
> stuff....:^)=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Today the probes and the interconnect may be different, but the a=C2-
> type J thermocouple has always created the same amount of > voltage
du=C2-
> e to=C2-
> physics.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we=C2-
> are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would personally > vote
fo=C2-
> r=C2-
> grounding issues.=C3=82=C2- You can see from the table below
> that=C2-
> 10=C2-
> degrees Centigrade is about a 1/2 milliVolt change.=C3=82=C2-
> Try=C2-
> a direct=C2-
> wire from GND on your EI gauge to the engine.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> This is from Sandia labs...=C3=82=C2- gil A=C2-
>=C2-
> =0=C2-
> A=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 ITS-90 Table for type J=C3=82=C2- thermocouple=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 =C3=82=C2=B0C=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=8
2 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82 > =C3=82=C2-
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 1=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 2=C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 > =C3=C2-
> =82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 3=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=2
0=C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 4=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 >
=C3=C2-
> =82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 5=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 6=C3=82
=C3=82=2=C2-
> 0=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 7=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 8=C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 > =C3=C2-
> =82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 9=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 10=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 > =C3=82 =C3=C2-
> =82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 > =C3=82=C2-
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Thermoelectric Voltage in mV=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82=C2- 0.000=C3=82=C2- 0.050
=C3=82=C2- 0.101=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 0.151=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 0.202=C3=82=C2- 0.253=C3=82=C2- 0.303=C3=82=C2- 0.354
=C3=82=C2- 0.40=C2-
> 5=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 0.456=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 0.507=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 10=C3=82=C2- 0.507=C3=82=C2- 0.558=C3=82
=C2- 0.609=C3=82=C2-
> =C2- 0.660=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 0.711=C3=82=C2- 0.762=C3=82=C2- 0.814=C3=82=C2- 0.865
=C3=82=C2- 0.91=C2-
> 6=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 0.968=C3=82C2
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 1.019=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 20=C3=82=C2- 1.019=C3=82=C2- 1.071=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-1.122=C3=82=C2- 1.174=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 1.226=C3=82=C2- 1.277=C3=82=C2- 1.329=C3=82=C2- 1.381
=C3=82=C2- 1.43=C2-
> 3=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 1.485=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 1.537=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 30=C3=82=C2- 1.537=C3=82=C2- 1.589=C3=82
=C2- 1.641=C3=82=C2-
> =C2- 1.693=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 1.745=C=C2-
> 3=C2- 1.797=C3=82=C2- 1.849=C3=82=C2- 1.902=C3=82=C2-
1.954=C3=82=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
> 2.006=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 2.059=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 40=C3=82=C2- 2.059=C3=82=C2- 2.111=C3=82
=C2- 2.164=C3=82=C2-
> =C2- 2.216=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 2.269=C3=82=C2- 2.322=C3=82=C2- 2.374=C3=82=C2- 2.427
=C3=82=C2- 2.48=C2-
> 0=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 2.532=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 2.585=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 50=C3=82=C2- 2.585=C3=82=C2- 2.6382=C2- 2.6
91=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 2.744=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 2.797=C3=82=C2- 2.850=C3=82=C2- 2.903=C3=82=C2- 2.956
=C3=82=C2- 3.00=C2-
> 9=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 3.062=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 3.116=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 60=C3=82=C2- 3.116=C3=82=C2- 3.169=C3=82
=C2- 3.222=C3=82=C2-
> =C2- 3.2753DC3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 3.329=C3=82=C2- 3.382=C3=82=C2- 3.436=C3=82=C2- 3.489
=C3=82=C2- 3.54=C2-
> 3=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 3.596=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 3.650=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 70=C3=82=C2- 3.650=C3=82=C2- 3.703=C3=82
=C2- 3.757=C3=82=C2-
> =C2- 3.810=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 3.864=C3=82=C2- 3.918=C3=82=C2- 3.971=C3=82=C2- 4.025
=C3=82=C2- 4.07=C2-
> 9=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 4.133=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 4.187=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 80=C3=82=C2- 4.187=C3=82=C2- 4.240=C3=82
=C2- 4.294=C3=82=C2-
> =C2- 4.348=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 4.402=C3=82=C2- 4.456=C3=82=C2- 4.510=C3=82=C2- 4.564
=C3=82=C2- 4.61=C2-
> 8=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 4.672=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 4.726=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 90=C3=82=C2- 4.726=C3=82=C2- 4.781=C3=82
=C2- 4.835=C3=82=C2-
> =C2- 4.889=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 4.943=C3=82=C2- 4.997=C3=82=C2- 5.052=C3=82=C2- 5.106
=C3=82=C2- 5.16=C2-
> 0=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 5.215=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 5.269=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 100=C3=82=C2- 5.269=C3=82=C2- 5.323=C3=82=C2-
5.378=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 5.432=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 5.487=C3=82=C2- 5.541=C3=82=C2- 5.595=C3=82=C2- 5.650
=C3=82=C2- 5.70=C2-
> 5=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 5.759=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>C2
> 5.814=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 110=C3=820 5.814=C3=82=C2- 5.868=C3=82=C2- 5.92
3=C3=82=C2- 5.97=C2-
> 7=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 6.032=C3=82=C2- 6.087=C3=82=C2- 6.141=C3=82=C2- 6.196
=C3=82=C2- 6.25=C2-
> 1=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 6.306=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 6.360=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 120=C3=82=C2- 6.360=C3=82=C2- 6.415=C3=82=C2-
6.470=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 6.525=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 6.579=C3=82=C2- 6.634=C3=82=C2- 6.689=C3=82=C2- 6.744
=C=C2-
> 3=C2- 6.799=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 6.854=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 6.909=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 130=C3=82=C2- 6.909=C3=82=C2- 6.964=C3=82=C2-
7.019=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 7.074=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 7.129=C3=82=C2- 7.184=C3=82=C2- 7.239=C3=82=C2- 7.294
=C3=82=C2- 7.34=C2-
> 9=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 7.404=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 7.459=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 140=C3=82=C2- 7.4590 7.514=C3=82=C2- 7.569=C3=8
2=C2- 7.624=C3=C2-
> =82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 7.679=C3=82=C2- 7.734=C3=82=C2- 7.789=C3=82=C2- 7.844
=C3=82=C2- 7.90=C2-
> 0=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 7.955=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 8.010=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 150=C3=82=C2- 8.010=C3=82=C2- 8.065=C3=82=C2-
8.120=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 8.175=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 8.231=C3=82=C2- 8.286=C3=823DC2- 8.341=C3=82=C2- 8.396=C
3=82=C2- 8.45=C2-
> 2=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 8.507=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 8.562=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 160=C3=82=C2- 8.562=C3=82=C2- 8.618=C3=82=C2-
8.673=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 8.728=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 8.783=C3=82=C2- 8.839=C3=82=C2- 8.894=C3=82=C2- 8.949
=C3=82=C2- 9.00=C2-
> 5=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 9.060=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 9.115=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 170=C3=82=C2- 9.115=C3=82=C2- 9.171=C3=82=C2-
9.226=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 9.282=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 9.337=C3=82=C2- 9.392=C3=82=C2- 9.448=C3=82=C2- 9.503
=C3=82=C2- 9.55=C2-
> 9=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 9.614=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 9.669=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 180=C3=82=C2- 9.669=C3=82=C2- 9.725=C3=82=C2-
9.780=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 9.836=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 9.891=C3=82=C2- 9.947 10.002 10.057 10.113 10.168 10.224=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 190 10.224 10.279 10.335 1=C2-
> 0.390 10.446 10.501 10.557 10.612 10.668=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 10.723 10.779=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 200 10.779 10.834 10.890 10.945 11.001 11.056 11.112 11.167 > 1
1.223=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 11.278 11.334=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 210 11.334 11.389 11.445 11.501 11.556 11.612 11.667 11.723 > 1
1.778=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 11.834 11.889=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =3
DC3=82 220 11.889 11.945 12.000 12.056 12.111 12.167 12.222 12.278 > 12.33
4=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 12.389 12.445=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 230 12.445 12.500 12.556 12.611 12.667 12.722 12.778 12.833 > 1
2.889=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 12.944 13.000=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 240 13.000 13.056 13.111 13.167 13.222 13.278 13.333 13.389 > 1
3.444=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 13.500 13.555=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 250 13.555 13.611 13.666 13.722 13.777 13.833 13.888 13.944 > 1
3.999=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 14.055 14.110=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 260 14.110 14.166 14.221 14.277 14.332 14.388 14.443 14.499 > 1
4.554=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 14.609 14.665=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 270 14.665 14.720 14.776 14.831 14.887 14.942 14.998 15.053 > 1
5.109=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 15.164 15.219=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 280 15.219 15.275 15.330 15.386 15.441 15.496 15.552 15.607 > 1
5.663=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 15.718 15.773=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 290 15.773 15.829 15.884 15.940 15.995 16.050 16.106 16.161 16.
=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 216=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 16.272 16.327=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> p://forums.matronics.com=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> A Good Credit Sc
ore is 700 or Above.=C2-
> ?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx> %
3Fs=C2-
> c%3D668072%26hmp=C2-
> gID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62">=C2-
> See yours in just 2=C2-
> easy steps!=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> href="=C2-
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=C2-
> ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> href="=C2-
> http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> href="=C2-
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution=C2-
> ">http://www.matronics.com/c=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
=C2-
> ===============3=C2-
> D=====================C2-
> p://forums.matronics.com=C2-
> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 3/28/2009 7:16 AM=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ch as List Un/Subscription,=C2-
> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
=C2-
> p://forums.matronics.com=C2-
> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!=C2
-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =======C2-
> ====C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ________________________________ Message 7 > ___________________________
__________=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Time: 11:32:14 AM PST US=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-
List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
> From: teamgrumman@AOL.COM=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/excerpt.pdf=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ------------------------------------------------=C2-
>=C2-
> It sounds to me like this describes the basic=C2-EI=C2-circuit. =C2-
I=C2-
> know you can't change the length of the leads (on the unit I used). > =C
2-Th=C2-
> e reference temperature is the back of the unit? =C2-Not sure if I > wou
ld r=C2-
> ely on that.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Except for a few cautions, the unpowered thermocouple gage=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> is quite attractive. It can be accurate and requires no wiring to=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ship's DC power. Such an instrument is illustrated in View=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> -C-. Obviously, the reference-junction for this instrument=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> exists right where the thermocouple wires bolt to the back of=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> the instrument. Reference-junction compensation doesn't have=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> to look like a 0oC ice bath. The reference-junction compensator=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> just needs to know what the temperature is at the studs on the=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> back of the instrument case; no problem since the=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> compensation circuitry is right inside the case!=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ------------------------------------------------=C2-
>=C2-
> This sounds more like a=C2-JPI=C2-unit.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> While on
the topic of high impedance instruments for=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> thermocouples, I'll call your attention to Figure 14-12.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> In View -A- the hot-junction and reference-junction=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> setup is similar to Figure 14-10, View -A- except: an=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> electronic amplifier inserted between thermocouple=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> wires and indicator. Some interesting things happen=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> when you add an amplifier. (1) the indicator becomes a=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> simple, much less expensive, voltmeter and (2) the=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> current flo=C2-
> wing in the thermocouple wires is for all=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> practical purposes, zero. Length of thermocouple wire=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> is no longer critical; insertion of a selector switch to=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> manage many thermocouples is feasible. The last=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> inconvenience to eliminate is the requirement for an ice=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> bath . . . .=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ------------------------------------------------=C2-
>=C2-
> This sounds like what was done on the=C2-AG5B. =C2-No wonder their > t
emp=C2-
> gauges are so=C2-bazaar.=C2-=C2-
>=C2-
> I try to avoid=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> bringing a thermocouple through any kind of connector=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> along with other wires. There's a lot of temptation on the=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> part of buil
ders to bring all wires penetrating a firewall=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> through on some kind of connector. For cost, weight=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> and time savings, I recommend fabricating firewall=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> penetrations from ordinary grommets with sheet metal=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> fire shields.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ------------------------------------------------=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Figure 14-3: =C2-A: =C2-JPI installation. =C2- =C2-B: EI Installat
io=C2-
> n=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ------------------------------------------------=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> http://www.status.co.uk/data/handbook_sections_1_to_4.pdf=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Thermocouples with grounded junctions display response times some 20 > to
30%=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> faster than those with insulated junctions. Very good sensitivity is > pro
vide=C2-
> d by fine=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> gauge unsheathed thermocouples. With conductor diameter in the range > 0.0
25mm=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> to 0.81mm, response times in the region of 0.05 to 0.40 seconds can > be r
eali=C2-
> sed.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> -----Original Message-----=C2-
> From: teamgrumman@aol.com=C2-
> Sent: Mon, 30 Mar=C2-
> 2009 10:43 am=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Just to add to the mix. =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> On the flight tests, we also measured Oil Temp and OAT with the EI. > =C
2-Oi=C2-
> l temp was measured at the oil filt
er adaptor and OAT was a probe > stuck out=C2-
> the canopy at the top. =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Oil temp on the EI was within 5 degrees of the oil temp measured by > the
JPI=C2-
> in the front right galley plug.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Oat on the JPI was slightly colder, 1 to 4 degrees, with the JPI > probed
loca=C2-
> ted under the left wing at the most forward inspection cover.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> -----Original Message-----=C2-
>=C2-
> From: teamgrumman@aol.com=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:23 am=C2-
>=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two=C2-
> different styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard P-100, that he > teste
d an=C2-
> d=C2-
> found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large > difference
s in=C2-
>=C2-
> temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with > the f
ixed=C2-
>=C2-
> probe.=C2- And all the accusations, or implications at least, are > that
the=C2-
>=C2-
> fixed EI probe does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a > r
eal=C2-
> possibility that it could be due to something completely=C2-
> different.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Cliff=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Finally, Cliff, you hit the nail on the head. =C2-I agree. =C2-There >
is=C2-
> a real possibility there is som
ething going on that could > account20for the d=C2-
> ifferences in temperatures. =C2-I doubt, seriously, that it is just > th
e pr=C2-
> obes.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> And. =C2-It has nothing to do with a recent change in vendors. =C2-I >
fir=C2-
> st noticed this difference around 1995 when I installed my first JPI > 700
.=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> And. =C2-It isn't just my plane. =C2-I installed a JPI 700 in one > Co
manc=C2-
> he and a JPI 800 in another Comanche in place of previously > installed EI
uni=C2-
> ts. =C2-Both owners came back saying their engines were running hot. >
=C2=C2-
> -One owner, the 700, bought another EI and had me put it in instead. >
=C2=C2-
> -The other owner was willing to accept th=C2-
> e higher readings.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Gil. =C2-Just how many grounds is enough? =C2-Are you concerned > abou
t gr=C2-
> ound loops? =C2-I've run the ground to a common avionics ground AND > to
the=C2-
> ground on the engine from the avionics ground. =C2-No change. =C2-I've
=C2-
> tried just the avionics ground. =C2-I've tried just the engine ground.
=C2-
> =C2-No change. =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Like I wrote in the STAR, the temps start out the same before start-> up.
=C2=C2-
> -The JPI temps rise faster and to a higher reading than the EI temps.=C2
-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> And. =C2-There is no way to know the actual test set up used by > Lycomi
ng
..=C2-
> C2=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> I have an old Gem in a box somewhere. =C2-It has no digital readout. >
=C2=C2-
> -Gil, if yours has no digital readout, with 25 degree per bar > accuracy,
ho=C2-
> w do you know what th=C2-
> e temperature is? =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> And. Speculation: =C2-I would expect that the makers of these > analyzer
s to=C2-
> ok into consideration various millivolt differences. =C2-If they saw > d
iffe=C2-
> rences of 3 degrees, I doubt they cared.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> And. =C2-If this had only happened to one installation, then I would > l
ook=C2-
> at the installation. =C2-It is a universal experience that the JPI > rea
ds h=C2-
> igher. =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> -----Original Message-----=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 7:35 pm=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the two=C2-
> different styles of EI probes, bayonet and standard P-100, that he > teste
d an=C2-
> d=C2-
> found very little difference between the two.=C2- The large > difference
s in=C2-
>=C2-
> temperature mentioned are between JPI with the bayonet and EI with > the f
ixed=C2-
>=C2-
> probe.=C2- And all the accusations, or implications at least, are > that
the=C2-
>=C2-
> fixed EI pro
be does not measure the true temperature.=C2- There is a > real=C2-
> possibility that=2=C2-
> 0it could be due to something completely=C2-
> different.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Cliff=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ----- Original Message -----=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> From:=C2-
> Gil=C2-
> Alexander=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:13=C2-
> PM=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumm=C2-
> an-List: RE: EI vs=C2-
> JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Ned... I believe the GG post you refer to still references=C2-
>=C2-
> Gary's EI/JPI measurements....:^)=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> He just says below that the EI=C2-
> non-bayonet probes read lower - which does not seem to be in=C2-
> dispute....:^)=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> And do you really think Lycoming used a non-MIL-Spec=C2-
> probe, especially in the 60's, for certification?=C2- I vote for > prob
es=C2-
> that=C2-
> touch the cylinder.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> gil A=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> At 07:05 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> I started this thread b=C2-
> ecause of similar=C2-
> thread that was started on the GG. I understood one poster to say > tha
t h=C2-
> e=C2-
> too had experienced higher readings with JPI type probes that > actuall
y t=C2-
> ouch=C2-
> the thermowell. He had both in his Ch
eetah and found that the > probes tha=C2-
> t=C2-
> touch the head actually give a higher reading.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> So in answer to Gil's post it appears that=C2-
> others have noted the diffenece in temp readings besides=C2-
> Gary.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Someone at=C2-
> Lycoming needs to answer this question, at least the question of > the
typ=C2-
> e of=C2-
> probe they used. Right now we are just speculating on what type > of pr
obe=C2-
>=C2-
> they used.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Ned=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Here is the post I refer=C2-
> to:=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> -----=C2-
> Original Message -----=C2-
> From: John Horton=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Sent: Tuesday,=C2-
> March 24, 2009209:19 PM=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Subject: RE: Tiger outlet ramps - More Info=C2-
> Req.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Dave,=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> I would direct you to look at=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> http://www.bondline.org/wiki/Lower_Cowling_Split=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> for=C2-
> info about reworking the exit ramps.=C2- That link will only > provid
e=C2-
> info=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> about=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> the metal exit ramps but that's half the=C2-
> options.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> When you mention that your temps are "warm" be sure to=C2-
> review the GG archives=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> about JPI instrumentation vs EI instrumentation.=C2-
> There are differences in=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> probe=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> design that make JPI read higher that=C2-
> EI in what should be the same cylinder.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> So if you have JP CHT and think=C2-
> your running "warm" you might be just fine if=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> you had EI CHT.=C2-=C2-
> Theres a good bit of reading in the archives on that=C2-
> topic.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> My=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> consensus after reviewing (and I might still have it wrong)=C2-
> is that JP CHT=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> reads=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> hotter than EI due to the fact that the JP CHT=C2-
> probe actually is spring=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> loaded=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> to touch the cyl head. The EI CHT=C2-
> probe screws into a space in the cyl head.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> I=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> have had both in my plane=C2-
> (Cheetah) and can verify that fact. The pro=C2-
> bes are=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> different and the JP=C2-
> touches the head and reads hott
er.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> So if you have=C2- JP CHT gauge=C2-
> and it reads 420 in climb your most likely fine.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> (Assuming the temp goes=C2-
> down when you level out)=2=C2-
> 0The same plane may well read=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 385 with a EI CHT=C2-
> and it is fine also. Be sure to know your temp source (EI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> or=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> JP) and=C2-
>=C2-
> read the archives to get a feel for the differences before you go=C2
-
> and=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> rework your exit ramps. They might be fine.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> I recently=C2-
> reworked my exit ramps on my Cheetah due to a "warmer" than=C2-
> I'd=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> like=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> #4 cyl, cracks in my metal exit ramps and a newly minted=C2-
> A&P ticket that=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> allowed=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> me to do it. I have only flown it once and=C2-
> the results looked promising.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Tommorrow I hope to gather more flight=C2-
> data. I currently have a JP CHT/EGT=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> and=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> in climb prior to the ramp=C2-
> work could occasionally hit 450 (my and Lycomings=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> redline).=C2- I could=C2-
> easily get into the 430's in climb and have to nose ove
r=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> and=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> or=C2-
> throttle back to arrest the CHT rise.=C2- When I had the EI CHT > gau
ge=C2-
> I=C2-
> never=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> saw anything above 390.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> After reworking the ramps I do=C2-
> expect to go faster, climb higher and do it=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> all=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> with 1/3 flaps=C2-
> deployed for less gallons per hour. I just had to throw that=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> in=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> in=C2-
> case there aren't=C2-
> enough emotionally loaded topics to write=C2-
> about.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> John Horton=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> HC Cheetah=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Sensenich Prop=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2------ Original Message -----=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Fr=C2-
> om: Gil Alexander=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 8:41 PM=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Gary,=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> How many STCs have you installed with poor/bad/wrong=C2-
> instructions?=C2- And the CHT/EGT monitor STCs are quite > "generic
" n=C2-
> ot=C2-
> really airframe spec
ific.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> My latest one was my Plane Power voltage regulator.=C2- Works fine,=C2
-
> but needed spacers to clear the "bumps" on the fire wall - > hardly a
=C2-
> drop-in exact replacement for the non flat bottom mechanical > regula
tor=C2-
> -=C2-
> and no mention in the STC instructions.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Your plane seems to be the only test case reporting the problem.=C2-=C2
-
> I'm happy with the Insight GEM in mine with it's probes that > touch
the=C2-
>=C2-
> thermowell bottom like I believe the Lycoming test bayonet > probes d
id=C2-
> during their certification.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> As an electronics engineer, I know I would not design sensitive=C2-
> millivolts=C2-
> equipment using grounded sensors.... but that's just me.... and=C2-
> my stuff is (or has been) working in military aircraft and space=C2
-
> vehicles....:^)=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> gil A=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> PS ...I like the GEM unit, but I have the20"bars on=C2-
> ly" version - I=C2-
> would prefer the version with numbers - a probable future > upgrade.
=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> PPS=C2- Sorry about the formatting of the mV chart in my previous=C2-
> e-mail=C2-
>=C2-
>
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Here is an alternate link to another table of National Institute of=C2-
> Standards and Technology output voltages from a Type J > thermocouple
=C2-
> -=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> This shows how small the DC voltages are that we are=C2-
> measuring.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> At 05:40 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we=C2-
> are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would > personally vo
te=C2-
> for=C2-
> grounding issues.=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> MY PLANE? =C3=82 Ok, maybe your right. =C3=82 The grounds in insta
lled=C2-
> according to the STC were done wrong. =C3=82 Maybe the probes >
ground=C2-
> ing=C2-
> 20 against brand new cylinders had corrosion built up in them. > =C
3=82=C2-
> =C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Maybe planes experiencing CHT readings higher on a JPI than on an EI=C2
-
> also followed the installation i=C2-
> nstructions.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> How about you doing your own testing and report your own=C2-
> 20 results?=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C
2
> -----Original Message-----=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:03 pm=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> This is only true if, and it's a big IF, the temperatures=C2-
> displayed on todays instrumentation "WOULD" have displayed > the
sam=C2-
> e=C2-
> temperatures as those recorded by Lycoming technicians=C3=83
=C2-
> =9A on the=C2-
> instrumentation used by Lycoming. =C3=83=9A=C3=82=C2-
=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Gary... I don't belief that is a big "IF"...=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> The electrical characteristics of a type J thermocouple have been=C2-
> well known from long before WWII.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> The electrical instrument=C2-
> ation bit has not changed over the years as=C2-
> far as the basic thermocouple, especially when used in an > engine
tes=C2-
> t=C2-
> cell.=C3=82=C2- I bet Lycoming had individual CHT meters > di
rectly=C2-
> conn=C2-
> ected=C2-
> to the probes, none of this fancy digital switching, scanning=C2
-
> stuff....:^)=C2-
>=C
2
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Today the probes and the interconnect may be different, but the a=C2-
> type J thermocouple h=C2-
> as always created the same amount of voltage due to=C2-
> physics.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> There is something else going on here in your plane - and since we=C2-
> are dealing with fractions of milliVolts, I would personally > vote
fo=C2-
> r=C2-
> grounding issues.=C3=82=C2- You can see from the table below
> that=C2-
> 10=C2-
> degrees Centigrade is about a 1/2 milliVolt change.=C3=82=C2-
> Try=C2-
> a direct=C2-
> wire from GND on your EI gauge to the engine.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> This is from Sandia labs...=C3=82=C2- gil A=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 ITS-90 Table for type J=C3=82=C2- thermocouple=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 =C3=82=C2=B0C=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=8
2 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82 > =C3=82=C2-
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 1=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 2=C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 > =C3=C2-
> =82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 3=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 4=C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 > =C3=C2-
> =82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 5=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C
3=82=C2- 6=C3=82 =C3=82=2=C2-
> 0=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 7=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 8=C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 > =C3=C2-
> =82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 9=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 10=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=8220=C3=82 =C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 > =C3=82 =C3=C2-
> =82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82
=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 > =C3=82=C2-
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Thermoelectric Voltage in mV=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 =C3=82=C2- 0=C3=82=C2- 0.000=C3=82=C2- 0.050
=C3=82=C2- 0.101=C2-
> =C=C2-
> 3=C2- 0.151=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 0.202=C3=82=C2- 0.253=C3=82=C2- 0.303=C3=82=C2- 0.354
=C3=82=C2- 0.40=C2-
> 5=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 0.456=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 0.507=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 10=C3=82=C2- 0.507=C3=82=C2- 0.558=C3=82
=C2- 0.609=C3=82=C2-
> =C2- 0.660=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 0.711=C3=82=C2- 0.762=C3=82=C2- 0.814=C3=82=C2- 0.865
=C3=82=C2- 0.91=C2-
> 6=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 0.968=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 1.019=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 20=C3=82=C2- 1.019=C3=82=C2- 1.071=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C2-
1.122=C3=82=C2- 1.174=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 1.226=C3=82=C2- 1.277=C3=82=C2- 1.329=C3=82=C2- 1.381
=C3=82=C2- 1.43=C2-
> 3=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 1.485=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 1.537=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 30=C3=82=C2- 1.537=C3=82=C2- 1.589=C3=82
=C2- 1.641=C3=82=C2-
> =C2- 1.693=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 1.745=C3=82=C2- 1.797=C3=82=C2- 1.849=C3=82=C2- 1.902
=C3=82=C2- 1.95=C2-
> 4=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 2.006=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 2.059=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 40=C3=82=C2- 2.059=C3=82=C2- 2.111=C3=82
=C2- 2.164=C3=82=C2-
> =C2- 2.216=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 2.269=C3=82=C2- 2.322=C3=82=C2- 2.374=C3=82=C2- 2.427
=C3=82=C2- 2.48=C2-
> 0=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 2.532=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 2.585=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 50=C3=82=C2- 2.585=C3=82=C2- 2.6382=C2- 2.6
91=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 2.744=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 2.797=C3=82=C2- 2.850=C3=82=C2- 2.903=C3=82=C2- 2.956
=C3=82=C2- 3.00=C2-
> 9=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 3.062=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 3.116=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 60=C3=82=C2- 3.116=C3=82=C2- 3.169C3=C2- 3.
222=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 3.275=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 3.329=C3=82=C2- 3.382=C3=82=C2- 3.436=C3=82=C2- 3.489
=C3=82=C2- 3.54=C2-
> 3=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 3.596=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 3.650=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 70=C3=82=C2- 3.650=C3=82=C2- 3.703=C3=82
=C2- 3.757=C3=82=C2-
> =C2- 3.810=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 3.864=C3=82=C2- 3.918=C3=82=C2- 3.971=C3=82=C2- 4.025
=C3=82=C2- 4.07=C2-
> 9=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 4.133=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 4.187=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =0=C2-
> A=C3=82=C2- 80=C3=82=C2- 4.187=C3=82=C2- 4.240=C3=82
=C2- 4.294=C3=C2-
> =82=C2- 4.348=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 4.402=C3=82=C2- 4.456=C3=82=C2- 4.510=C3=82=C2- 4.564
=C3=82=C2- 4.61=C2-
> 8=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 4.672=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 4.726=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 90=C3=82=C2- 4.726=C3=82=C2- 4.781=C3=82
=C2- 4.835=C3=82=C2-
> =C2- 4.889=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 4.943=C3=82=C2- 4.997=C3=82=C2- 5.052=C3=82=C2- 5.106
=C3=82=C2- 5.16=C2-
> 0=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 5.215=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 5.269=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 100=C3=82=C2- 5.269=C3=82=C2- 5.323=C3=82=C2-
5.378=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 5.432=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 5.487=C3=82=C2- 5.541=C3=82=C2- 5.595=C3=82=C2- 5.650
=C3=82=C2- 5.70=C2-
> 5=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 5.759=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 5.814=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 110=C3=82=C2- 5.814=C3=82=C2- 5.868=C3=82=C2-
5.923=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 5.977=C3=82
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 6.032=C3=82=C2- 6.087=C3=82=C2- 6.141=C3=82=C2- 6.196
=C3=82=C2- 6.25=C2-
> 1=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 6.306=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 6.360=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 120=C3=82=C2- 6.360=C3=82=C2- 6.415=C3=82=C2-
6.470=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 6.525=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 6.579=C3=82=C2- 6.634=C3=82=C2- 6.689=C3=82=C2- 6.744
=C=C2-
> 3=C2- 6.799=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 6.854=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 6.909=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 130=C3=82=C2- 6.909=C3=82=C2- 6.964=C3=82=C2-
7.019=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 7.074=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 7.129=C3=82=C2- 7.184=C3=82=C2- 7.239=C3=82=C2- 7.29=C2
-
> 4=C3=82=C2- 7.349=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 7.404=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 7.459=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 140=C3=82=C2- 7.4590 7.514=C3=82=C2- 7.569=C3=8
2=C2- 7.624=C3=C2-
> =82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 7.679=C3=82=C2- 7.734=C3=82=C2- 7.789=C3=82=C2- 7.844
=C3=82=C2- 7.90=C2-
> 0=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 7.955=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 8.010=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 150=C3=82=C2- 8.010=C3=82=C2- 8.065=C3=82=C2-
8.120=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 8.175=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 8.231=C3=82=C2- 8.286=C3=82=C2- 8.341=C3=82=C2- 8.396
=C2-
> =C3=82=C2- 8.452=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 8.507=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 8.562=C2-
>=C2-
>C2
> =C3=82 160=C3=82=C2- 8.562=C3=82=C2- 8.618=C3=82=C2-
8.673=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 8.728=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 8.783=C3=82=C2- 8.839=C3=82=C2- 8.894=C3=82=C2- 8.949
=C3=82=C2- 9.00=C2-
> 5=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 9.060=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 9.115=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 170=C3=82=C2- 9.115=C3=82=C2- 9.171=C3=82=C2-
9.226=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 9.282=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 9.337=C3=82=C2- 9.392=C3=82=C2- 9.448=C3=82=C2- 9.503
=C3=82=C2- 9.55=C2-
> 9=C3=82=C2-=C2-
> 9.614=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 9.669=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 180=C3=82=C2- 9.669=C3=82=C2- 9.725=C3=82=C2-
9.780=C3=82=C2=C2-
> - 9.836=C3=82=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 9.891=C3=82=C2- 9.947 10.002 10.057 10.113 10.168 10.224=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 190 10.224 10.279 10.335 10.390 10.446 10.501 10.557 10.612 > 1
0.668=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 10.723 10.779=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 200 10.779 10.834 10.890 10.945 11.001 11.056 11.112 11.167 > 1
1.223=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 11.278 11.334=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 210 11.334 11.389 11.445 11.501 11.556 11.612 11.667 11.723 > 1
1.778=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 11.834 11.889=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 220 11.889 11.945 12.000 12.056 12.111 12.167 12.222 12.278 > 1
2.334=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 12.389 12.445=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=2
0230 12.445 12.500 12.556 12.611 12.667 12.722 12.7=C2-
> 78 12.833 12.889=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 12.944 13.000=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 240 13.000 13.056 13.111 13.167 13.222 13.278 13.333 13.389 > 1
3.444=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 13.500 13.555=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82=C2-=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 250 13.555 13.611 13.666 13.722 13.777 13.833 13.888 13.944 > 1
3.999=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 14.055 14.110=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 260 14.110 14.166 14.221 14.277 14.332 14.388 14.443 14.499 > 1
4.554=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 14.609 14.665=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 270 14.665 14.720 14.776 14.831 14.887 14.942 14.998 15.053 > 1
5.109=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 15.164 15.21=C2-
> 9=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 280 15.219 15.275 15.330 15.386 15.441 15.496 15.552 15.607 > 1
5.663=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 15.718 15.773=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =C3=82 290 15.773 15.829 15.884 15.940 15.995 16.050 16.106 16.161 16.
=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 216=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 16.272 16.327=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> p://forums.matronics.com=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.=C2-
> ?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx> %
3Fs=C2-
> c%3D668072%26hmp=C2-
>
gID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62">=C2-
> See yours in just 2 easy steps!=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> href="=C2-
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=C2-
> ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> href="=C2-
> http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> href="=C2-
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution=C2-
> ">http://www.matronics.com/c=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
=C2-
> ===============3=C2-
> D=====================C2-
> p://forums.matronics.com=C2-
> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 3/28/2009 7:16 AM=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ch as List Un/Subscription,=C2-
> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
=C2-
> p://forums.matronics.com=C2-
> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Abo=C2-
> ve. See yours in just 2 easy steps!=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
=C2-
> _-3D=C2-
> p://forums.matronics.com=C2-
> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!=C2
-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> =============C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> __________________________
______ Message 8 > _____________________________________=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Time: 12:34:58 PM PST US=C2-
> From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>=C2-
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>=C2-
> Into the mix but a completely different type of sensor.=C2-
>=C2-
> No thermocouples here - it's either a resistive=C2-
> sensor, or a semiconductor junction type sensor.=C2-
>=C2-
> Apples and Oranges.... gilA=C2-
>=C2-
> At 10:43 AM 3/30/2009, you wrote:=C2-
>> Just to add to the mix. =C2=C2-
>>=C2-
>> On the flight tests, we also measured Oil Temp=C2-
>> and OAT with the EI. =C2 Oil temp was measured at=C2-
>> the oil filter adaptor and OAT was a probe stuck out the canopy at >> the
top.=C2-
> =C2=C2-
>>=C2-
>> Oil temp on the EI was within 5 degrees of the=C2-
>> oil temp measured by the JPI in the front right galley plug.=C2-
>>=C2-
>> Oat on the JPI was slightly colder, 1 to 4=C2-
>> degrees, with the JPI probed located under the=C2-
>> left wing at the most forward inspection cover.=C2-
>>=C2-
>>=C2-
>> -----Original Message-----=C2-
>> From: teamgrumman@aol.com=C2-
>> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=C2-
>> Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:23 am=C2-
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>>=C2-
>> Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the=C2-
>> two different styles of EI probes, bayonet and=C2-
>> standard P-100, that he
tested and found very=C2-
>> little difference between the two.=C2 The large=C2-
>> differences in temperature mentioned are between=C2-
>> JPI with the bayonet and EI with the fixed=C2-
>> probe.=C2 And all the accusations, or=C2-
>> implications at least, are that the fixed EI=C2-
>> probe does not measure the true=C2-
>> temperature.=C2 There is a real possibility that=C2-
>> it could be due to something completely different.=C2-
>> =C2=C2-
>> Cliff=C2-
>>=C2-
>> Finally, Cliff, you hit the nail on the head. =C2=C2-
>> I agree. =C2 There is a real possibility there is=C2-
>> something going on that could account for the=C2-
>> differences in temperatures. =C2 I doubt, seriously, that it is >> just
the=C2-
> probes.=C2-
>>=C2-
>> And. =C2 It has nothing to do with a recent change=C2-
>> in vendors. =C2 I first noticed this difference=C2-
>> around 1995 when I installed my first JPI 700. =C2=C2-
>>=C2-
>> And. =C2 It isn't just my plane. =C2 I installed a=C2-
>> JPI 700 in one Comanche and a JPI 800 in another=C2-
>> Comanche in place of previously installed EI=C2-
>> units. =C2 Both owners came back saying their=C2-
>> engines were running hot. =C2 One owner, the 700,=C2-
>> bought another EI and had me put it in instead.=C2-
>> =C2 The other owner was willing to accept th e higher readings.=C2-
>>=C2-
>> Gil. =C2 Just how many grounds is enough? =3
DC2 Are=C2-
>> you concerned about ground loops? =C2 I've run the=C2-
>> ground to a common avionics ground AND to the=C2-
>> ground on the engine from the avionics ground. =C2=C2-
>> No change. =C2 I've tried just the avionics=C2-
>> ground. =C2 I've tried just the engine ground. =C2 No change. =C2
=C2-
>>=C2-
>> Like I wrote in the STAR, the temps start out=C2-
>> the same before start-up. =C2 The JPI temps rise=C2-
>> faster and to a higher reading than the EI temps.=C2-
>>=C2-
>> And. =C2 There is no way to know the actual test set up used by >> Lyco
ming.=C2-
> C2=C2-
>>=C2-
>> I have an old Gem in a box somewhere. =C2 It has=C2-
>> no digital readout. =C2 Gil, if yours has no=C2-
>> digital readout, with 25 degree per bar=C2-
>> accuracy, how do you know what the temperature is? =C2=C2-
>>=C2-
>> And. Speculation: =C2 I would expect that the=C2-
>> makers of these analyzers took into=C2-
>> consideration various millivolt differences. =C2=C2-
>> If they saw differences of 3 degrees, I doubt they cared.=C2-
>>=C2-
>> And. =C2 If this had only happened to one=C2-
>> installation, then I would look at the=C2-
>> installation. =C2 It is a universal experience that the JPI reads >> hi
gher.=C2-
> =C2=C2-
>>=C2-
>>=C2-
>> -----Original Message-----=C2-
>> From: flyv35b <<mailto:flyv35b@minetfiber.com>flyv35b@minetfiber.com>=C2
-
>> To: <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.co
m>teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=C2-
>> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 7:35 pm=C2-
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>>=C2-
>> Maybe you guys need to ask Steve Peach about the=C2-
>> two different styles of EI probes, bayonet and=C2-
>> standard P-100, that he tested and found very=C2-
>> little difference between the two.=C2 The large=C2-
>> differences in temperature mentioned are between=C2-
>> JPI with the bayonet and EI with the fixed=C2-
>> probe.=C2 And all the accusations, or=C2-
>> implications at least, are that the fixed EI=C2-
>> probe does not measure the true=C2-
>> temperature.=C2 There is a real possibility=C2-
>> that=2 0it could be due to something completely different.=C2-
>> =C2=C2-
>> Cliff=C2-
>> ----- Original Message -----=C2-
>> From: <mailto:gilalex@earthlink.net>Gil Alexander=C2-
>> To: <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
=C2-
>> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:13 PM=C2-
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>>=C2-
>> Ned... I believe the GG post you refer to still=C2-
>> references Gary's EI/JPI measurements....:^)=C2-
>>=C2-
>> He just says below that the EI non-bayonet=C2-
>> probes read lower - which does not seem to be in dispute....:^)=C2-
>>=C2-
>> And do you really think Lycoming used a=C2-
>> non-MIL-Spec probe, especially in the 60's, for=C2-
>> certification?=C2 I vote for probes that touch the cylinder.=C2-
>>=C2-
>
> gil A=C2-
>>=C2-
>> At 07:05 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:=C2-
>>> I started this thread b ecause of similar=C2-
>>> thread that was started on the GG. I understood=C2-
>>> one poster to say that he too had experienced=C2-
>>> higher readings with JPI type probes that=C2-
>>> actually touch the thermowell. He had both in=C2-
>>> his Cheetah and found that the probes that=C2-
>>> touch the head actually give a higher reading.=C2-
>>> =C2=C2-
>>> So in answer to Gil's post it appears that=C2-
>>> others have noted the diffenece in temp readings besides Gary.=C2-
>>> =C2=C2-
>>> Someone at Lycoming needs to answer this=C2-
>>> question, at least the question of the type of=C2-
>>> probe they used. Right now we are just=C2-
>>> speculating on what type of probe they used.=C2-
>>> =C2=C2-
>>> Ned=C2-
>>> =C2=C2-
>>> Here is the post I refer to:=C2-
>>> =C2=C2-
>>> =C2=C2-
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: <mailto:hortonjf@comcast.net>John=C2
-
> Horton=C2-
>>> To: <mailto:3d.flyguy@abszero.com>'Dave=C2-
>>> Kalwick' ; <mailto:grumman-gang@xmission.com>'GG'=C2-
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:19 PM=C2-
>>> Subject: RE: Tiger outlet ramps - More Info Req.=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>> Dave,=C2-
>>> I would direct you to look at=C2-
>>> http://www.bondline.org/wiki/Lower_Cowling_Split< /a>=C2-
>>> for info about reworking the exit ramps.=C2 That link will only >>> p
rovide=C2-
> info=C2-
>>> about=C2-
0A>>> the metal exit ramps but that's half the options.=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>> When you mention that your temps are "warm" be sure to review the GG=C2
-
> archives=C2-
>>> about JPI instrumentation vs EI instrumentation. There are >>> differenc
es in=C2-
>>> probe=C2-
>>> design that make JPI read higher that EI in what should be the same=C2
-
> cylinder.=C2-
>>> So if you have JP CHT and think your running "warm" you might be >>> jus
t fine=C2-
> if=C2-
>>> you had EI CHT.=C2 Theres a good bit of reading in the archives >>> o
n that=C2-
> topic.=C2-
>>> My=C2-
>>> consensus after reviewing (and I might still have it wrong) is >>> that
JP CHT=C2-
>>> reads=C2-
>>> hotter than EI due to the fact that the JP CHT probe actually is >>> spr
ing=C2-
>>> loaded=C2-
>>> to touch the cyl head. The EI CHT probe screws into a space in the >>> c
yl=C2-
> head.=C2-
>>> I=C2-
>>> have had both in my plane (Cheetah) and can verify that fact. The >>> pr
o bes=C2-
> are=C2-
>>> different and the JP touches the head and reads hotter.=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>> So if you have=C2 JP CHT gauge and it reads 420=C2-
>>> in climb your most likely fine.=C2-
>>> (Assuming the temp goes down when you level out) The same plane >>> may
well=C2-
> read=C2-
>>> 385 with a EI CHT and it is fine also. Be sure to know your temp >>> sou
rce=C2-
> (EI=C2-
>>> or=C2-
>>> JP) and read the archives to get a=2
0feel for the differences before >>> you go=C2-
> and=C2-
>>> rework your exit ramps. They might be fine.=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>> I recently reworked my exit ramps on my Cheetah due to a "warmer" >>> th
an I'd=C2-
>>> like=C2-
>>> #4 cyl, cracks in my metal exit ramps and a newly minted A&P >>> ticket
that=C2-
>>> allowed=C2-
>>> me to do it. I have only flown it once and the results looked >>> promis
ing.=C2-
>>> Tommorrow I hope to gather more flight data. I currently have a JP >>> C
HT/EGT=C2-
>>> and=C2-
>>> in climb prior to the ramp work could occasionally hit 450 (my and=C2
-
> Lycomings=C2-
>>> redline).=C2 I could easily get into the 430's in climb and have >>>
to nose=C2-
> over=C2-
>>> and=C2-
>>> or throttle back to arrest the CHT rise.=C2 When=C2-
>>> I had the EI CHT gauge I never=C2-
>>> saw anything above 390.=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>> After reworking the ramps I do expect to go faster, climb higher >>> and
do it=C2-
>>> all=C2-
>>> with 1/3 flaps deployed for less gallons per hour. I just had to >>> thr
ow=C2-
> that=C2-
>>> in=C2-
>>> in case there aren't enough emotionally loaded topics to write >>> about
.=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>> John Horton=C2-
>>> HC Cheetah=C2-
>>> Sensenich Prop=C2-
>>> =C2 ----- Original Message -----=C2-
>>> From: <mailto:gilalex@earthlink.net>Gil Alexander=C2-
>>> To: <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matro nics.com>teamgrumman-list@matronics.c
om=C2-
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 29
, 2009 8:41 PM=C2-
>>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>>> Gary,=C2-
>>> How many STCs have you installed with=C2-
>>> poor/bad/wrong instructions?=C2 And the CHT/EGT=C2-
>>> monitor STCs are quite "generic" not really airframe specific.=C2-
>>> My latest one was my Plane Power voltage=C2-
>>> regulator.=C2 Works fine, but needed spacers to=C2-
>>> clear the "bumps" on the fire wall - hardly a=C2-
>>> drop-in exact replacement for the non flat=C2-
>>> bottom mechanical regulator - and no mention in the STC >>> instructions
.=C2-
>>> Your plane seems to be the only test case=C2-
>>> reporting the problem.=C2 I'm happy with the=C2-
>>> Insight GEM in mine with it's probes that touch=C2-
>>> the thermowell bottom like I believe the=C2-
>>> Lycoming test bayonet probes did during their certification.=C2-
>>> As an electronics engineer, I know I would not=C2-
>>> design sensitive millivolts equipment using=C2-
>>> grounded sensors.... but that's just me.... and=C2-
>>> my stuff is (or has been) working in military=C2-
>>> aircraft and space vehicles....:^)=C2-
>>> gil A=C2-
>>> PS ...I like the GEM unit, but I have the "bars=C2-
>>> on ly" version - I would prefer the version=C2-
>>> with numbers - a probable future upgrade.=C2-
>>> PPS=C2 Sorry about the formatting of the mV chart in my previous >>>
e-mail=C2-
>>> Here is an alternate link to another table of=C2-
>>> National Institute of St
andards and Technology=C2-
>>> output voltages from a Type J thermocouple -=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>> <http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf>http://www.omega.com/te
mp=C2-
> erature/Z/pdf/z203.pdf=C2-
>>> This shows how small the DC voltages are that we are measuring.=C2-
>>> At 05:40 PM 3/29/2009, you wrote:=C2-
>>>> There is something else going on here in your=C2-
>>>> plane - and since we are dealing with=C2-
>>>> fractions of milliVolts, I would personally vote for grounding >>>> iss
ues.=C3=C2-
> =82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> MY PLANE? =C3=82 Ok, maybe your right. =C3=82 The=C2-
>>>> grounds in installed according to the STC were=C2-
>>>> done wrong. =C3=82 Maybe the probes grounding 20=C2-
>>>> against brand new cylinders had corrosion built up in them. >>>> =C3
=82=C2=C2-
>>>> Maybe planes experiencing CHT readings higher=C2-
>>>> on a JPI than on an EI also followed the installation i >>>> nstruction
s.=C2-
>>>> How about you doing your own testing and report your own results?=C2
-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> -----Original Message-----=C2-
>>>> From: Gil Alexander <<mailto:gilalex@earthlink.net>gilalex@earthlink.ne
t>>>> >=C2-
>>>> To: <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>teamgrumman-list@matronics.c
om=C2-
>>>> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:03 pm=C2-
>>>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: EI vs JPI=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>> This is only true if, and it's a big IF, the=C2-
>>>>> temperatures displayed on todays=C2-
>>>>> instrumentation "WOULD" have displayed the=C2-
>>>>> same temperatures as those recorded by=C2-
>>>>> Lycoming technicians=C3=83=9A on the instrumentation used by=C2
-
> Lycoming. =C3=83=82=C3=82=C2=C2-
>>>> Gary... I don't belief that is a big "IF"...=C2-
>>>> The electrical characteristics of a type J=C2-
>>>> thermocouple have been well known from long before WWII.=C2-
>>>> The electrical instrument ation bit has not=C2-
>>>> changed over the years as far as the basic=C2-
>>>> thermocouple, especially when used in an=C2-
>>>> engine test cell.=C3=82=C2 I bet Lycoming had=C2-
>>>> individual CHT meters directly conn ected to=C2-
>>>> the probes, none of this fancy digital switching, scanning >>>> stuff..
..:^)=C2-
>>>> Today the probes and the interconnect may be=C2-
>>>> different, but the a type J thermocouple has=C2-
>>>> always created the same amount of voltage due to physics.=C2-
>>>> There is something else going on here in your=C2-
>>>> plane - and since we are dealing with=C2-
>>>> fractions of milliVolts, I would personally=C2-
>>>> vote for grounding issues.=C3=82=C2 You can see=C2-
>>>> from the table below that 10 degrees=C2-
>>>> Centigrade is about a 1/2 milliVolt=C2-
>>>> change.=C3=82=C2 Try a direct wire from GND on your EI gauge to
>>>> the=C2-
> engine.=C2-
>>>> This is from Sandia labs...=C3=82=C2 gil A=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 ITS-90 Table for type J=C3=82=C2 thermocouple=C
2
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 =C3=82=C2=B0C=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82 =C3=82=C2 >>>> 0=C3=82 =C3=82=C2-
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 1=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 2=C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 >>>> =C3=82 =C3=C2-
> =82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 3=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 4=C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 >>>> =C3=82 =C3=C2-
> =82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 5=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 6=C3
=82 =C3=82=2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 0=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 7=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 8=C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 >>>> =C3=82 =C3=C2-
> =82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 9=C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 10=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=8220=C3=82 =C
3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 >>>> =C3=82=C2-
> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3
=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 >>>> =C3=82 =C3=C2-
> =82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82 =C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> Thermoelectric Voltage in mV=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 =C3=82=C2 0=C3=82=C2 0.000=C3=82=C2 0.0
50=C3=82=C2 >>>> 0.101=C3=82=C2-
>
=C2 0.151=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 0.202=C3=82=C2 0.253=C3=82=C2 0.303=C3=82=C2 0.354
=C3=82=C2 >>>> 0.405=C3=C2-
> =82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 0.456=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 0.507=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82=C2 10=C3=82=C2 0.507=C3=82=C2 0.558=C3
=82=C2 >>>> 0.609=C3=82=C2=C2-
> 0.660=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 0.711=C3=82=C2 0.762=C3=82=C2 0.814=C3=82=C2 0.865
=C3=82=C2 >>>> 0.916=C3=C2-
> =82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 0.968=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 1.019=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82=C2 20=C3=82=C2 1.019=C3=82=C2 1.071=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C2 1.122=C3=82=C2 1.174=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 1.226=C3=82=C2 1.277=C3=82=C2 1.329=C3=82=C2 1.381
=C3=82=C2 >>>> 1.433=C3=C2-
> =82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 1.485=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 1.537=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82=C2 30=C3=82=C2 1.537=C3=82=C2 1.589=C3
=82=C2 >>>> 1.641=C3=82=C2=C2-
> 1.693=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 1.745=C3=82=C2 1.797=C3=82=C2 1.849=C3=82=C2 1.902
=C3=82=C2 >>>> 1.954=C3=C2-
> =82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 2.006=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 2.059=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82=C2 40=C3=82=C2 2.059=C3=82=C2 2.111=C3
=82=C2 >>>> 2.164=C3=3
D82=C2=C2-
> 2.216=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 2.269=C3=82=C2 2.322=C3=82=C2 2.374=C3=82=C2 2.427
=C3=82=C2 >>>> 2.480=C3=C2-
> =82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 2.532=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 2.585=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82=C2 50=C3=82=C2 2.585=C3=82=C2 2.6382=C2
2.691=C3=82=C2=C2-
> 2.744=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 2.797=C3=82=C2 2.850=C3=82=C2 2.903=C3=82=C2 2.956
=C3=82=C2 >>>> 3.009=C3=C2-
> =82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 3.062=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 3.116=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82=C2 60=C3=82=C2 3.116=C3=82=C2 3.169C3=C2
3.222=C3=82=C2=C2-
> 3.275=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 3.329=C3=82=C2 3.382=C3=82=C2 3.436=C3=82=C2 3.489
=C3=82=C2 >>>> 3.543=C3=C2-
> =82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 3.596=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 3.650=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82=C2 70=C3=82=C2 3.650=C3=82=C2 3.703=C3
=82=C2 >>>> 3.757=C3=82=C2=C2-
> 3.810=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 3.864=C3=82=C2 3.918=C3=82=C2 3.971=C3=82=C2 4.025
=C3=82=C2 >>>> 4.079=C3=C2-
> =82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 4.133=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 4.187=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82=C2 80=C3=82=C2 4.187=C3=82=C2 4.240=C3
=82=C220 >>>> 4.294=C3=82=C2=C2-
> 4.348=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 4.402=C3=82=C2 4.456=C3=82=C2 4.510=C3=82=C2 4.564
=C3=82=C2 >>>> 4.618=C3=C2-
> =82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 4.672=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 4.726=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82=C2 90=C3=82=C2 4.726=C3=82=C2 4.781=C3
=82=C2 >>>> 4.835=C3=82=C2=C2-
> 4.889=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 4.943=C3=82=C2 4.997=C3=82=C2 5.052=C3=82=C2 5.106
=C3=82=C2 >>>> 5.160=C3=C2-
> =82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 5.215=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 5.269=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 100=C3=82=C2 5.269=C3=82=C2 5.323=C3=82
=C2 5.378=C3=82=C2=C2-
> 5.432=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 5.487=C3=82=C2 5.541=C3=82=C2 5.595=C3=82=C2 5.650
=C3=82=C2 >>>> 5.705=C3=C2-
> =82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 5.759=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 5.814=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 110=C3=82=C2 5.814=C3=82=C2 5.868=C3=82
=C2 5.923=C3=82=C2=C2-
> 5.977=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 6.032=C3=82=C2 6.087=C3=82=C2 6.141=C3=82=C2 6.196
=C3=82=C2 >>>> 6.251=C3=C2-
> =82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 6.306=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 6.360=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 120=C3=82=C2 6.360=C3=82=C2 6
..415=C3=82=C2 6.470=C3=82=C2=C2-
> 6.525=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 6.579=C3=82=C2 6.634=C3=82=C2 6.689=C3=82=C2 6.744
=C=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 3=C2 6.799=C3=82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 6.854=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 6.909=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 130=C3=82=C2 6.909=C3=82=C2 6.964=C3=82
=C2 7.019=C3=82=C2=C2-
> 7.074=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 7.129=C3=82=C2 7.184=C3=82=C2 7.239=C3=82=C2 7.29
=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 4=C3=82=C2 7.349=C3=82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 7.404=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 7.459=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 140=C3=82=C2 7.4590 7.514=C3=82=C2 7.569=C3
=82=C2 >>>> 7.624=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 7.679=C3=82=C2 7.734=C3=82=C2 7.789=C3=82=C2 7.844
=C3=82=C2 >>>> 7.900=C3=C2-
> =82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 7.955=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 8.010=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 150=C3=82=C2 8.010=C3=82=C2 8.065=C3=82
=C2 8.120=C3=82=C2=C2-
> 8.175=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 8.231=C3=82=C2 8.286=C3=82=C2 8.341=C3=82=C2 8.396
=C3=82=C2 >>>> 8.452=C3=C2-
> =82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 8.507=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 8.562=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 160=C3=82=C2 8.562=C3=82=C2 8.6
18=C3=82=C2 8.673=C3=82=C2=C2-
> 8.728=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 8.783=C3=82=C2 8.839=C3=82=C2 8.894=C3=82=C2 8.949
=C3=82=C2 >>>> 9.005=C3=C2-
> =82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 9.060=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 9.115=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 170=C3=82=C2 9.115=C3=82=C2 9.171=C3=82
=C2 9.226=C3=82=C2=C2-
> 9.282=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 9.337=C3=82=C2 9.392=C3=82=C2 9.448=C3=82=C2 9.503
=C3=82=C2 >>>> 9.559=C3=C2-
> =82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 9.614=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 9.669=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 180=C3=82=C2 9.669=C3=82=C2 9.725=C3=82
=C2 9.780=C3=82=C2=C2-
> 9.836=C3=82=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 9.891=C3=82=C2 9.947 10.002 10.057 10.113 10.168 10.224=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 190 10.224 10.279 10.335 10.390 10.446 10.501 10.557 >>>> 10
.612 10.668=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 10.723 10.779=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 200 10.779 10.834 10.890 10.945 11.001 11.056 11.112 >>>> 11
.167 11.223=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 11.278 11.334=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 210 11.334 11.389 11.445 11.501 11.556 11.612 11.667 >>>> 11
.723 11.778=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 11.834 11.889=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 220 11.889 11.945 12.000 12.056 12.11
1 12.167 12.222 >>>> 12.278 12.334=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 12.389 12.445=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 230 12.445 12.500 12.556 12.611 12.667 12.722 12.7=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 78 12.833 12.889=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 12.944 13.000=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 240 13.000 13.056 13.111 13.167 13.222 13.278 13.333 >>>> 13
.389 13.444=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 13.500 13.555=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82=C2=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 250 13.555 13.611 13.666 13.722 13.777 13.833 13.888 >>>> 13
.944 13.999=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 14.055 14.110=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 260 14.110 14.166 14.221 14.277 14.332 14.388 14.443 >>>> 14
.499 14.554=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 14.609 14.665=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 270 14.665 14.720 14.776 14.831 14.887 14.942 14.998 >>>> 15
.053 15.109=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 15.164 15.219=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 280 15.219 15.275 15.330 15.386 15.441 15.496 15.552 >>>> 15
.607 15.663=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 15.718 15.773=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> =C3=82 290 15.773 15.829 15.884 15.940 15.995 16.050 16.106 >>>> 16
.161 16.=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 216=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> 16.272 16.327=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> or?TeamGrumman-List"><http://www.matronics.com/Nav
igator?TeamGrumman-List=C2-
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> p://forums.matronics.com=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> ution"><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/
co=C2-
> ntribution=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>>=C2-
>>>> ----------=C2-
>>>> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.=C2-
>>>> ?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx>>>> %3
Fsc%3D6=C2-
> 68072%26hmp=C2-
>>>> gID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62"> See yours in just 2 easy >>>> ste
ps!=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>> href="=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>> "><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List>http://www.matron
ic=C2-
> s.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>> href="=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>> http://forums.matronics.com"><http://forums.matronics.com>http://forums.
ma=C2-
> tronics.com=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>> href="=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution=C2-
>>>=C2-
>>> "><http://www.matronics.com/c>http://www.matronics.com/c=C2-
>>=C2-
>> or?TeamGrumman-List"><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> >h=C2-
> ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=C2-
>>=C2-
>> ===============3=C2-
>>=C2-
>> D=====================C2-
>>=C2-
>> p://forums.matronics.com=C2-
>>=C2-
>> ution"><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/co
nt=C2-
> ribution=C2-
>>=C2-
>>=C2-
>> ----------0
>> 3/28/2009 7:16 AM=C2-
>>=C2-
>>=C2-
>> ----------=C2-
>> I am using the Free version of <http://www.spamfighter.com/>> len>SPAMfig
hter.=C2-
>> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.=C2-
>>=C2-
>>=C2-
>> ch as List Un/Subscription,=C2-
>> or?TeamGrumman-List"><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> >h=C2-
> ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=C2-
>> p://forums.matronics.com=C2-
>> ution"><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/co
nt=C2-
> ribution=C2-
>>=C2-
>>=C2-
>> ----------=C2-
>> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!=C2
-
>>=C2-
>>=C2-
>> or?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
=C2-
>> _-3D=C2-
>> p://forums.matronics.com=C2-
>> ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=C2-
>>=C2-
>>=C2-
>> ----------=C2-
>> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.=C2-
> http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc> %3D668072%26
hmpg=C2-
> ID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62>See=C2-
>> yours in just 2 easy steps!=C2-
>>=C2-
>=C2-
> ________________________________ Message 9 > ___________________________
__________=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Time: 01:39:18 PM PST US=C2-
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: reciting thread posts=C2-
> From: "grumpyparts" <i.r.m@btinternet.com>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> For any of you out there that is finding the EIvsJPI thread > interesting
like me,=C2-
> but finding it hard to follow at times with all those emails may I > sugge
s
t you=C2-
> follow it on the teamgrumman forum list, you should get a link from > the
message=C2-
> below.=C2-
>=C2-
> It's far easier to follow being able to flick back though all the > earlie
r posts=C2-
> in case I've missed something, also I can delete all the emails and > just
look=C2-
> at the forum once a day to get the updates. Try it.=C2-
>=C2-
> Tip just keep the title the same so as not to create another topic.=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Read this topic online here:=C2-
>=C2-
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236914#236914=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> ________________________________ Message 10 > __________________________
__________=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Time: 07:02:44 PM PST US=C2-
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: EI vs JPI=C2-
> From: "az_gila" <gilalex@earthlink.net>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> OK... now the point of discussion has morphed a bit.=C2-
>=C2-
> I thought it was "Bayonet probes vs. short, fixed probes" for CHTs.=C2-
>=C2-
> It seems to be now "JPI reads higher than EI" - which is quite a > differe
nt issue.=C2-
>=C2-
> This gets into the electronic circuits used and how the > manufacturers ca
librate=C2-
> their equipment.=C2-
>=C2-
> gil A - a little confused... [Wink]=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> Read this topic online here:=C2-
>=C2-
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236970#236970=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
>=C2-
> 05/15/2008=C2-
=C2-
============C2-
============C2-
============C2-
============C2-
=C2-
=C2-
Message 2
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All of the reports, forms, paperwork, and data have all been submitted to th
e FAA. =C2-It's in their hands now. =C2-The DER says I should have the S
TC in a couple of weeks. =C2-But, I think he lives in dog years. =C2-
Here's the deal. =C2-I am looking to buy a house. =C2-I need down paymen
t money so I'm going to make you an offer you can't refuse.
As it stands, my plan is to sell the cowling for $8500, exchange (that's a b
argain if you've tried to buy Cessna, Piper, Bonanza, or LoPresti cowlings).
=C2-
On top of that would be:
=C2-=C2-=A2 the cost of baffles (as yet to be determined, but, it
looks like about $300 to $500 per set. =C2-Cost depends on how many I orde
r). =C2-
=C2-=C2-=A2 the cost of baffle seals, installation labor and mater
ials (about $800)
=C2-=C2-=A2 Painting the =C2-inside of the cowling with polyuret
hane paint (required by the STC for fire protection)
=C2-=C2-=A2 Block sanding, prepping, priming and painting the outs
ide white. =C2-About $1000 to $1500 labor and materials.
=C2-=C2-=A2 half off on labor to fit and install the cowling. =C2
-(this could be as much as $4000 based on three previous installations)
For the first ten (10) cowlings only, I'll include the baffles, baffle seals
, and all the cowling finishing at no extra charge. =C2-
That is a potential savings of up to $7000. =C2-
You could, conceivably, fly away for $10,000 (assuming you have a Power Flow
w/short stack).
=C2-
But, there's a catch. =C2-I need a 50% deposit on the cowlings by the end
of April. =C2-(Don't worry Martin, I'll include you)
I have 2 cowlings made already. =C2-More are in the pipeline. =C2-It tak
es about 2 to 3 weeks to make the complete cowling. =C2-
PS, this isn't an April Fools joke.
Message 3
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What is the requirement re-need for a power flow exhaust. Standard
exhaust will not work?
John
________________________________
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 2:43 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling Update
All of the reports, forms, paperwork, and data have all been submitted
to the FAA. It's in their hands now. The DER says I should have the
STC in a couple of weeks. But, I think he lives in dog years.
Here's the deal. I am looking to buy a house. I need down payment
money so I'm going to make you an offer you can't refuse.
As it stands, my plan is to sell the cowling for $8500, exchange (that's
a bargain if you've tried to buy Cessna, Piper, Bonanza, or LoPresti
cowlings).
On top of that would be:
* the cost of baffles (as yet to be determined, but, it looks like
about $300 to $500 per set. Cost depends on how many I order).
* the cost of baffle seals, installation labor and materials (about
$800)
* Painting the inside of the cowling with polyurethane paint
(required by the STC for fire protection)
* Block sanding, prepping, priming and painting the outside white.
About $1000 to $1500 labor and materials.
* half off on labor to fit and install the cowling. (this could be as
much as $4000 based on three previous installations)
For the first ten (10) cowlings only, I'll include the baffles, baffle
seals, and all the cowling finishing at no extra charge.
That is a potential savings of up to $7000.
You could, conceivably, fly away for $10,000 (assuming you have a Power
Flow w/short stack).
But, there's a catch. I need a 50% deposit on the cowlings by the end
of April. (Don't worry Martin, I'll include you)
I have 2 cowlings made already. More are in the pipeline. It takes
about 2 to 3 weeks to make the complete cowling.
PS, this isn't an April Fools joke.
________________________________
FAQ,
Web
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Cowling Update |
The STC requires the Power Flow Exhaust system.
-----Original Message-----
From: Hosler, John <JHOSLER@epri.com>
Sent: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 12:13 pm
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling Update
What is the requirement re-need for a power flow
exhaust.=C2- Standard exhaust will not work?
=C2-
John
From:
owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 2:43
PM
Subject:
TeamGrumman-List: Cowling Update
All of the reports, forms, paperwork, and data have all been
submitted to the FAA. =C2-It's in their hands now. =C2-The DER says I sh
ould
have the STC in a couple of weeks. =C2-But, I think he lives in dog years.
=C2-
Here's the deal. =C2-I am looking to buy a house. =C2-I need down
payment money so I'm going to make you an offer you can't refuse.
As it stands, my plan is to sell the cowling for $8500, exchange (that's a
bargain if you've tried to buy Cessna, Piper, Bonanza, or LoPresti cowlings)
.
=C2-
On top of that would be:
=C2-=C2-=A2 the cost of baffles (as yet to be determined, but, it
looks
like about $300 to $500 per set. =C2-Cost depends on how many I order).
=C2-
=C2-=C2-=A2 the cost of baffle seals, installation labor and mater
ials
(about $800)
=C2-=C2-=A2 Painting the 0inside of the cowling with polyurethane
paint (required by the STC for fire protection)
=C2-=C2-=A2 Block sanding, prepping, priming and painting the outs
ide
white. =C2-About $1000 to $1500 labor and materials.
=C2-=C2-=A2 half off on labor to fit and install the cowling. =C2
-(this
could be as much as $4000 based on three previous installations)
For the first ten (10) cowlings only, I'll include the baffles, baffle
seals, and all the cowling finishing at no extra charge. =C2-
That is a potential savings of up to $7000. =C2-
You could, conceivably, fly away for $10,000 (assuming you have a Power
Flow w/short stack). =C2-
But, there's a catch. =C2-I need a 50%
deposit on the cowlings by the end of April. =C2-(Don't worry Martin, I'll
include you)
I have 2 cowlings made already. =C2-More are in the pipeline. =C2-It
takes about 2 to 3 weeks to make the complete cowling. =C2-
PS, this isn't an April Fools joke.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
Web Forums!
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com -Matt
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/cont
ribution
===========
0the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
Message 5
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| Subject: | Official TeamGrumman-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the TeamGrumman-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below.
The
complete TeamGrumman-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/TeamGrumman-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains TeamGrumman-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the TeamGrumman-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the TeamGrumman-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
******************************************
There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
****************************************
*** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe ***
****************************************
Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the
complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information.
The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
*****************************
*** How to Post a Message ***
*****************************
Send an email message to:
teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
to the List.
*****************************************************
*** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post ***
*****************************************************
When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
smith@machine.domain.com
smith@domain.com
Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to
the List.
**************************************
*** Enclosure Support on the Lists ***
**************************************
Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets
is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these
are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
content of enclosures.
These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
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Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "teamgrumman-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the TeamGrumman-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
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If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the TeamGrumman-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/teamgrumman-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all TeamGrumman-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the TeamGrumman-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* TeamGrumman-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the TeamGrumman-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* TeamGrumman-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* TeamGrumman-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* TeamGrumman-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the TeamGrumman-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* TeamGrumman-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the TeamGrumman-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the TeamGrumman-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?TeamGrumman
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
TeamGrumman-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the TeamGrumman-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the TeamGrumman-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
TeamGrumman-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the TeamGrumman-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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| Subject: | Official TeamGrumman-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the TeamGrumman-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
TeamGrumman-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/TeamGrumman-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
TeamGrumman-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the TeamGrumman-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the TeamGrumman-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
TeamGrumman-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the TeamGrumman-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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