Today's Message Index:
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1. 06:54 AM - Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 06/03/09 (george.mueller@aurora.org)
2. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 06/03/09 (Hosler, John)
3. 12:31 PM - two-seater vs 4 seater (teamgrumman@aol.com)
4. 02:53 PM - Re: 150 hp conversion for 2 place Grumman (WILLIAM KELLY)
5. 03:54 PM - WAC vs Sectionals (airman@appledumplings.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 06/03/09 |
Thanks to all who responded about my questions on the two place Grumman
with the big engine. I found your responses to be extremely knowledgeable
and helpful. I have a fellow coming this weekend to buy my Zenith 701 so
if it sells I will start shopping for a Grumman. I had a Cheetah years
ago which I really liked but I don't think I ever had anyone in the back
seats in all the time I had it.
George C. Mueller
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 06/03/09 |
George:
The thing about planes with back seats is that they tend to fly very
well with plenty of margin when only 2 people are in the plane. If you
go to a 2 seater you give that up. Even in a stock plane you are always
near gross weight with 1 passenger. In a modified AA-1 it is much
worse.
I have owned a Tiger since 1981 (4500 hours in it) and also have many
hours in the AA-1 (stock and modified with bigger engine and aux tanks).
My friend owned a modified AA-1 (Tr-2) with small elevator. Bad combo.
You had to come in quite hot in order to have enough control authority
to lift the nose to flare. Very nose heavy!
And even with the aux tanks you have an endurance of only 2-2.5 hours.
I recommend that you buy an unmodified Cheetah or Tiger. Lots of range
and climb, and speed performance, few limitations. Well balanced and a
lot safer.
John Hosler
704-252-0780
________________________________
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
george.mueller@aurora.org
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 9:52 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 16 Msgs -
06/03/09
Thanks to all who responded about my questions on the two place Grumman
with the big engine. I found your responses to be extremely
knowledgeable and helpful. I have a fellow coming this weekend to buy
my Zenith 701 so if it sells I will start shopping for a Grumman. I had
a Cheetah years ago which I really liked but I don't think I ever had
anyone in the back seats in all the time I had it.
George C. Mueller
Message 3
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| Subject: | two-seater vs 4 seater |
I have a customer with a 74 Traveler, with a Power Flow Exhaust System,
and he wants to sell it.
It has the same yellow glue that the later Grummans have, so, debonding
isn't as much as a issue as 75 and 76 Grummans.
This plane has roughly 1875 hours total time airframe and engine. This
plane really needs a good home.
That said: I've read all of the arguments about a two-seater with a
big engine. To me, they just don't compare well to a 4-seater.
A few years ago, I helped a friend of mine do some clean-up on his high
compression 74 Traveler and we squeezed 10 knots out of it. When he
sold it, it would true out (TAS) at 137 knots at 5500 feet. And his
useful load was over 900 pounds. With full fuel (38 gallons, 228 lbs),
himself (240, he's a big boy), his girlfriend (130), he can still
carry over 350lbs of stuff. At an economy cruise of 130 knots, he'd
burn just 7.5 to 8 gallons per hour. At 9 gallons per hour, he had a
range of 4 hours. The only reason he sold it (for $55,000 with average
interior, average avionics, and new paint) was the 75 Traveler I put a
Lycon prepped (i.e., high compression, ported and polished, and dynoed
at 188 hp at 2725 rpm) would true at 140 knots after clean-up and he
wanted something faster.
With the seats folded down, he could put a full sized ice chest in the
plane just behind the front seats. Th
en, he and his girlfriend would
put camping gear in the plane and fly somewhere to camp. They often
put bicycles in the plane and would fly to a new place and ride around
the town on their bikes. Try that in a two-seater.
Dollar for dollar, the Traveler is a better investment than any AA1x.
If you want a two-seater, take out the back seat, seat belts, and
shoulder harness and save another 30 lbs.
As for climb rate, it's all in the power to weight ratio. My friends
Traveler would climb at 1500 fpm with the Sensenich prop. I have a
customer in Chico with a high compression Cheetah (with standard range
tanks like the Traveler) and Sensenich prop and he climbs out at
1000-1500 fpm all the time. The Chico plane trues at 134 knots with
antennas hanging out all over.
Most people fill up every inch of panel space with crap they never look
at OR use. I know one Tiger owner with two IFR approved panel mounted
GPSs, Audio Panel, Transponder, Storm Scope, Traffic avoidance TIS,
separate fuel flow and engine analyzers (that use up two holes), ADF,
DME, and he still carries "THREE" portable GPSs; a Garmin 296 on the
windshield bow, a Garmin 496 on his yoke and a Garmin 396 on the other
yoke. He also carries a handheld radio with VOR just in case
everything else fails. AND HE FLIES ALONE!. AND HE RARELY FLIES MORE
THAN 30 MINUTES FROM HOME. He just likes gadgets.
Off the record, his
empty weight is 1693 pounds. My Tiger is 1423 lbs (if you can believe
the calculations). Even if the changes over the years were 100 lbs
wrong, it's still 170 lbs lighter than his.
The Traveler I mentioned at the start of this tirade is for sale for
$20,000. It needs TLC. The engine is nearly run out, the interior is
pretty plain, plastic is dry and cracked, and the avionics are old (I
forget exactly what it has). BUT, it's pretty straight. It's going to
be someone's project. In the end, you'll have a plane with a lot more
utility than you would if you invested in a two-seater.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: george.mueller@aurora.org
Sent: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 6:51 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 16 Msgs -
06/03/09
Thanks to all who responded about my
questions on the two place Grumman with the big engine. I found your
responses to be extremely knowledgeable and helpful. I have a fellow
coming this weekend to buy my Zenith 701 so if it sells I will start
shopping
for a Grumman. I had a Cheetah years ago which I really liked but
I don't think I ever had anyone in the back seats in all the time I had
it.
George C. Mueller
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 150 hp conversion for 2 place Grumman |
Hi Steve,
So you have the tanks that were field approved out of Hemet, CA? Could
I get your personal email address? I know I've seen it, but I don't
keep everyone's around.
Bill Kelly
v1rotate@verizon.net
Bill I'm another one of that dozen or so with the fwd mounted aux
tanks... Anyone else out there?
BTW, I relocated my battery to behind the baggage compartment.
Message 5
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| Subject: | WAC vs Sectionals |
All,
I am about to make a trek from Ga to NY to Me then back down the east
coast. We are going to take about 2.5 weeks. Anyway I have never used
WAC charts.
It just seems like the better choice for this trip because much of the
trip is on the seams and having 6 sectionals to deal with in an
already crowded cockpit.
Are there any things I should know about the WAC vs sectionals? I
see that class D doesn't show the airspace but i will be ok on that. I
will put those numbers down on areas that we will be near.
Anything I shouldn't miss or be aware of in the NY-MH-ME-MA areas? we
are in our 30's with a 2 year old!
Our current plans are Plattsburgh NY and check out Ausable Chasm and
Lake Winnipesaukee and do a boat tour. Also may go as far as Acadia
N'tl Park in ME.
Thanks,
Thomas
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