Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:07 AM - Re: CHT Temp and Max Fuel Flow in the climb (923te)
2. 11:08 AM - Re: Re: CHT Temp and Max Fuel Flow in the climb (teamgrumman@aol.com)
3. 12:38 PM - Cost savings (teamgrumman@aol.com)
4. 01:53 PM - Re: Cost savings (Bruce Smith)
5. 05:03 PM - Distance = 40" (Ned Thomas)
6. 05:04 PM - (Ned Thomas)
7. 05:33 PM - (Ned Thomas)
8. 05:33 PM - (Ned Thomas)
9. 05:33 PM - (Ned Thomas)
10. 05:33 PM - (Ned Thomas)
11. 05:34 PM - (Ned Thomas)
12. 05:34 PM - (Ned Thomas)
13. 05:34 PM - (Ned Thomas)
14. 05:34 PM - (Ned Thomas)
15. 05:35 PM - (Ned Thomas)
16. 05:35 PM - (Ned Thomas)
17. 05:35 PM - (Ned Thomas)
18. 05:35 PM - (Ned Thomas)
19. 05:36 PM - (Ned Thomas)
20. 05:36 PM - (Ned Thomas)
21. 05:38 PM - (Ned Thomas)
22. 10:11 PM - Re: (no subject) (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
23. 10:21 PM - Re: (no subject) (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
24. 10:51 PM - Re: Re: (no subject) (923te)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: CHT Temp and Max Fuel Flow in the climb |
Jon,
Just to give you another AG5B referenece, with my AG5B Tiger the number
3 cylinder has always had the highest CHT and EGT with number 2 cylinder
being a close second for CHT and a far second for EGT. I found this
interesting being that the factory had determined number 2 to be the
hottest thus number 2 having the only CHT temp monitor installed from
the factory. After extensive baffle work the CHT is now about the same
in all the cylinders, 300 to 380 depending on
OAT, but EGT higher by ~75 to ~150 degrees depending on the ignition
system installed. That is conventional slick or LASAR. This from
temperature monitoring while running WOT at 2700rpm continuosly for all
phases of flight and usually leaned in cruise for best power ie max
rpm). I attached word files, one that gives you a data point for fuel
flow at 4000da one a picture for fuel flow from the following link to
the fuel flow graph from lycoming for our engine is
http://picasaweb.google.com/N532NC/Graphs#5301272997122682034
Gary Vogt has done extensive research on our Grummans. One of his many
excellent findings is that even a change in the type of air filter used
changes the CHT EGT distribution between the cylinders. As I recall the
#3 cylinder temps rose with the replacement of the stock air filter with
the challanger stc K&N style air filter.
Amongst all the many things done to improve cooling in my Tiger the 3 in
order of the greatest affect were 1) to enlarge the exit space between
the intercylinder and lower baffles, located under the cylinders as
revealed to me by Gary Vogt 2) to remove the flashing between the spark
plugs in the cooling fins as Bob Steward mentioned and 3 to "adjust" the
lower baffle in front of the front cylinders by raising the baffle. Very
small changes here, like 1/16"vertical movement, make large temp
changes between front and back CHT's. All three of these and many other
"secrets" are written about in Kent Pacers SPEED WITH ECONMOMY book.
Can you tell any differences with the roller lifter engine? Smoother?
more power?
Ned
Jon said:
2 more quick points. My old engines hottest cylinder was number 2 and I
think this is true for all of the AG Tigers.
from:
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 8:50 PM
Subject: RE: CHT Temp and Max Fuel Flow in the climb
In reply to Bob Steward's post..
Thanks Bob for the info and taking the time to reply..
You bring up one very good point and that is that I am never running
2700
rpm at sea level when looking at the maximum fuel flow instead I check
it in
a normal climb and (from memory) I think that would be at around 2550
rpm.
So Bob what you are sayings is that I am never producing full power to
see
the Lycoming recommended max fuel flow of about 16+gph ?
The reason that I am concentrating on fuel flow at takeoff power is that
I
already sent the carb back to the manufacture to enriching it from how I
received it from Lycoming with the rebuilt engine. That lowered the
climb
cht on #3 by 10 degrees. The carb mfg told me that they have had some
issues
with carbs not flowing enough fuel on the new roller tappet engines.
By asking other members if my numbers were similar to theirs I was
hoping to
determine if no further enriching is necessary.
2 more quick points. My old engines hottest cylinder was number 2 and I
think this is true for all of the AG Tigers. Also like all other Tigers
I
had to lean like crazy on the ground and in the air. This new engine
/carb
does not need nearly as much leaning.
Thanks again everyone for the help.
Jon
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: CHT Temp and Max Fuel Flow in the climb |
Hey Ned, what it is . . . .=C2-
I've done a lot of messing around with the front baffles, trying to redist
ribute the air to the rear cylinders. =C2-The #1 cylinder on my cowling
is the hottest during climb and pretty close to the others in cruise. =C2
-On Jeff's plane, we modified the front baffle again to reduce the CHT
in climb on #1 without changing the temp in cruise. =C2-Still playing
with that one. =C2-
#2 CHT runs the coolest (with my cowling) in climb and cruise. =C2-#4 is
in line with #1 & #3 in cruise. =C2-I am looking for a way to either co
ol #1, 3, & 4 or warm up #2 a little. =C2-
Typical CHT is in the range of 390 to 410 in full power leaned cruise. =C2
-Jeff's CHTs are in the range of 360 to 380 in his normal cruise conditi
on. =C2-Both using JPIs.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Wed, Jul 8, 2009 7:59 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: CHT Temp and Max Fuel Flow in the climb
Jon,
=C2-
Just to give you another AG5B referenece,
with=C2-my AG5B Tiger the number 3 cylinder has always had the highest
CHT and
EGT with number 2 cylinder being a close second for CHT and a far second
for
EGT. I found this interesting being that the factory had determined number
2 to
be the hottest thus number 2 having the=C2-only CHT temp monitor install
ed
from the factory. After extensive baffle20work the CHT is now about the sa
me in
all the cylinders, 300 to 380 depending on
OAT, =C2-but=C2-EGT higher by
~75 to ~150 degrees depending on the ignition system installed. That is
conventional slick or LASAR.=C2-This from temperature monitoring while
running
WOT at 2700rpm continuosly for all phases of flight and usually leaned in
cruise
for best power ie max rpm). I attached word files, one=C2-that gives you
a
data point for fuel flow at 4000da one a picture for fuel flow from the
following link to the fuel flow graph from lycoming for our engine is=C2
-http://picasaweb.google.com/N532NC/Graphs#5301272997122682034
=C2-
Gary Vogt has done extensive research on our
Grummans. One of his many excellent findings is that even a change in the
type
of air filter used changes the CHT EGT distribution between the cylinders.
As I
recall the #3 cylinder temps rose with the replacement of the stock air fi
lter
with the challanger stc K&N style air filter.
=C2-
Amongst all the many things done to improve
cooling in my Tiger the=C2-3=C2-in order of the greatest affect were
1) to
enlarge the exit space between the intercylinder and=C2-lower baffles,
located
under the cylinders as=C2-revealed to me by Gary Vogt 2) to remove the
flashing between the spark plugs in the cooling fins as Bob Steward mentio
ned
and 3 to "adjust" the lower baffle in front of the front cylinders by rais
ing
the baffle. Very small changes here, like 1/16"vertical=C2-
movement,C2make large temp changes between front and back CHT's. All three
of these and many other "secrets" are written about in Kent Pacers SPEED
WITH
ECONMOMY book.
=C2-
Can you tell any differences with the roller
lifter engine? Smoother? more power?
Ned
=C2-
=C2-
Jon said:
2 more quick points. My old engines hottest cylinder was number 2 and
I
think this is true for all of the AG Tigers.
from:
=C2-
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 8:50 PM
Subject: RE: CHT Temp and Max Fuel Flow in the climb
In reply to Bob Steward's
post..
Thanks Bob for the info and taking the time to reply..
You
bring up one very good point and that is that I am never running 2700
rpm at
sea level when looking at the maximum fuel flow instead I check it in
a
normal climb and (from memory) I think that would be at around 2550 rpm.
So Bob what you are sayings is that I am never producing full power to
see
the Lycoming recommended max fuel flow of about 16+gph ?
The
reason that I am concentrating on fuel flow at takeoff power is that
I
already sent the carb back to the manufacture to enriching it from how
I
received it from Lycoming with the rebuilt engine. That lowered the
climb
cht on #3 by 10 degrees. The carb mfg told me that they have had some
issues
with carbs not flowing enough fuel on=2
0the new roller tappet
engines.
By asking other members if my numbers were similar to theirs I
was hoping to
determine if no further enriching is necessary.
2 more
quick points. My old engines hottest cylinder was number 2 and I
think this
is true for all of the AG Tigers. Also like all other Tigers I
had to lean
like crazy on the ground and in the air. This new engine /carb
does not need
nearly as much leaning.
Thanks again everyone for the
help.
Jon
Message 3
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Here are a couple of good ones.
I realize the economy has hurt us all. =C2-Certainly a crappy time to be
finishing up the cowling project. =C2-But, does this mean that one star
ts to skimp on aircraft maintenance as well? =C2-
Story 1: I've been maintaining a particular Tiger for 9 years now. =C2-I
know the plane inside and out. =C2-Other than the paint job, I've done
just about everything else on the plane. =C2-
The annual is due this month and the owner called to find out how much the
annual would be this year. =C2-In case you all don't know yet, I use a
14 page checklist that keeps track of everything from rudder spring total
time to static rpm differences from year to year. =C2-So, as a result,
I can tell you this plane needs this, this, and this, during this annual.
=C2-One of the things I know this plane will need is brake linings. =C2
-
The owner has talked to another mechanic who is closer. =C2-I know 'of'
this mechanic; don't know him personally. =C2-This mechanic has quoted
the owner $650 for the annual. =C2-Odds are, that is an annual consisti
ng of a compression check. =C2-
Story 2: Another customer bought a Traveler without wheel pants. =C2-He
wanted wheel pants. =C2-He found wheel pants in a salvage yard; plastic
wheel pants. =C2-I saw the wheel pants for which he paid $300. =C2-Th
ey were cracked and broken in many places. =C2-They were in really bad
shape. =C2-So, he very carefully removed ALL of the hardware20and spent
days patching the wheel pants with fiberglass and plastic filler. =C2-T
hen, he replaced all of the hardware. =C2-He did a lot more work on the
wheel pants than would be required for new fiberglass shells. =C2-He st
ills wants to 'eventually' install fiberglass shells.
Finally, painted them with uncatalyzed=C2-=C2-automotive enamel. =C2
-He painted them in his driveway. =C2-He painted them after spending
a couple of days sanding them smooth, priming them, sanding some more, an
d then painting them with an airless sprayer from Home Depot. =C2-Can yo
u say, "Orange peel."=C2-
Point is, for all that work, for all that time invested, he could have had
new wheel pants for another $400 or so. =C2-Then, let someone shoot the
color for another $100 or so. =C2-The cost is in the preparation.
He did learn a lot from his experience. =C2-That counts for something.
Story 3: Several years ago a Tiger came in for an annual. =C2-The owner
wanted all of the interior plastic replaced. =C2-He ordered it and had
it sent to me. =C2-When I finished the annual, the owner came in to 'ch
eck-it-out.' =C2-When he saw the interior plastic, untrimmed, he inquire
d about the cost to install it. =C2-After I told him he said, "That's ri
diculous. You should do it for free for the amount you charged me for the
annual. =C2-Send the interior plastic to my home and I'll do it myself.
" =C2-So, I did.
I saw the plane a few years later. =C2-To say the interior
plastic was poorly installed would be putting it mildly. =C2-He liked it
. =C2-Oh, well, the canopy plastic rubbed on the turtle deck (the rear
of the canopy opening) to where the canopy was difficult to open, but.
=C2-The rear window molding wasn't trimmed to fit either.
I asked who does his annual now. =C2-He smiled and proudly said, "I do.
=C2-And I have a friend who is an IA and he signs it off. =C2-Costs
me $75 a year." =C2-Shortly after I moved to Auburn he came by. =C2-H
e wanted me to troubleshoot a myriad of problems he and his mechanic had
been unable to solve. =C2-I fixed the stuck primer and removed and clea
ned the primer nozzles. =C2-I gave him some ideas on where to look to so
lve his other 'issues.' =C2-I charged him 1 hour for the primer and nozz
les even though it took about 3 hours from start to finish: still too much
.
A few months later, I heard he had crashed his plane and that he'd been ho
spitalized. =C2-Apparently, the engine quit. =C2-A friend of mine who
does crash investigations said they found a lot of things that contribute
d to the engine failure. =C2-He said the plane didn't look like it had
been annualed in 10 years. =C2-He got his money's worth.
Story 4: =C2-I started maintaining a Tiger a few years ago who had belon
ged to someone I knew in the 80s who had done his own annuals. =C2-This
plane had been passed through 3 owners in the year previous to the curren
t owner buying the plane. =C2-Corrosion as
ide, it was clear this plane had not had any serious attention in 25+ year
s. =C2-It did have a factory reman engine (which failed at 800 hrs last
year due to no oil changes for 100 hrs at a stretch from engine install
in 1998 until 2002 when flying was reduced to almost zero hours year unti
l 2005.) =C2-
The annuals have gone from the $7,000 range in '05 to the $1500 range this
year. =C2-It's a lot more airworthy today than it was in '05. =C2-All
it needs now is routine maintenance.
--------------------------
Just some thoughts.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Cost savings |
Gary,
I was about to ask you if you've had any interesting annuals lately. You
beat me to the punch.
Bruce Smith
On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 15:31 -0400, teamgrumman@aol.com wrote:
> Here are a couple of good ones.
>
>
> I realize the economy has hurt us all. Certainly a crappy time to be
> finishing up the cowling project. But, does this mean that one starts
> to skimp on aircraft maintenance as well?
>
>
> Story 1: I've been maintaining a particular Tiger for 9 years now. I
> know the plane inside and out. Other than the paint job, I've done
> just about everything else on the plane.
>
>
> The annual is due this month and the owner called to find out how much
> the annual would be this year. In case you all don't know yet, I use
> a 14 page checklist that keeps track of everything from rudder spring
> total time to static rpm differences from year to year. So, as a
> result, I can tell you this plane needs this, this, and this, during
> this annual. One of the things I know this plane will need is brake
> linings.
>
>
> The owner has talked to another mechanic who is closer. I know 'of'
> this mechanic; don't know him personally. This mechanic has quoted
> the owner $650 for the annual. Odds are, that is an annual consisting
> of a compression check.
> Story 2: Another customer bought a Traveler without wheel pants. He
> wanted wheel pants. He found wheel pants in a salvage yard; plastic
> wheel pants. I saw the wheel pants for which he paid $300. They were
> cracked and broken in many places. They=2 0were in really bad shape.
> So, he very carefully removed ALL of the hardware and spent days
> patching the wheel pants with fiberglass and plastic filler. Then, he
> replaced all of the hardware. He did a lot more work on the wheel
> pants than would be required for new fiberglass shells. He stills
> wants to 'eventually' install fiberglass shells.
>
>
> Finally, painted them with uncatalyzed automotive enamel. He painted
> them in his driveway. He painted them after spending a couple of days
> sanding them smooth, priming them, sanding some more, and then
> painting them with an airless sprayer from Home Depot. Can you say,
> "Orange peel."
>
>
> Point is, for all that work, for all that time invested, he could have
> had new wheel pants for another $400 or so. Then, let someone shoot
> the color for another $100 or so. The cost is in the preparation.
>
>
> He did learn a lot from his experience. That counts for something.
>
>
> Story 3: Several years ago a Tiger came in for an annual. The owner
> wanted all of the interior plastic replaced. He ordered it and had it
> sent to me. When I finished the annual, the owner came in to
> 'check-it-out.' When he saw the interior plastic, untrimmed, he
> inquired about the cost to install it. After I told him he said,
> "That's ridiculous. You should do it for free for the amount you
> charged me for the annual.20 Send the interior plastic to my home and
> I'll do it myself." So, I did.
>
>
> I saw the plane a few years later. To say the interior plastic was
> poorly installed would be putting it mildly. He liked it. Oh, well,
> the canopy plastic rubbed on the turtle deck (the rear of the canopy
> opening) to where the canopy was difficult to open, but. The rear
> window molding wasn't trimmed to fit either.
>
>
> I asked who does his annual now. He smiled and proudly said, "I do.
> And I have a friend who is an IA and he signs it off. Costs me $75 a
> year." Shortly after I moved to Auburn he came by. He wanted me to
> troubleshoot a myriad of problems he and his mechanic had been unable
> to solve. I fixed the stuck primer and removed and cleaned the primer
> nozzles. I gave him some ideas on where to look to solve his other
> 'issues.' I charged him 1 hour for the primer and nozzles even though
> it took about 3 hours from start to finish: still too much.
>
>
> A few months later, I heard he had crashed his plane and that he'd
> been hospitalized. Apparently, the engine quit. A friend of mine who
> does crash investigations said they found a lot of things that
> contributed to the engine failure. He said the plane didn't look like
> it had been annualed in 10 years. He got his money's worth.
>
>
> Story 4: I started maintaini ng a Tiger a few years ago who had
> belonged to someone I knew in the 80s who had done his own annuals.
> This plane had been passed through 3 owners in the year previous to
> the current owner buying the plane. Corrosion aside, it was clear
> this plane had not had any serious attention in 25+ years. It did
> have a factory reman engine (which failed at 800 hrs last year due to
> no oil changes for 100 hrs at a stretch from engine install in 1998
> until 2002 when flying was reduced to almost zero hours year until
> 2005.)
>
>
> The annuals have gone from the $7,000 range in '05 to the $1500 range
> this year. It's a lot more airworthy today than it was in '05. All
> it needs now is routine maintenance.
>
>
> --------------------------
>
>
> Just some thoughts.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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| Subject: | Re: (no subject) |
Thanks for the photo Ned. =C2-That is the measurement I was looking for.
=C2-
Corl came in with his Cheetah this afternoon. =C2-His Cheetah is 40 inch
es also. =C2-Weird.
I talked to Dave and all that is needed is a different joggle for the cowl
ing tool. =C2-Not an easy job, but one that can accommodate both sizes
to get a good fit for either size.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
Sent: Wed, Jul 8, 2009 5:03 pm
Subject: (no subject)
=C2-
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Message 23
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Ned, your W&B shows 3 different weights. =C2-1400, 1460, and 1500. =C2
-Which one is real? =C2-The sample loading is not even realistic.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
Sent: Wed, Jul 8, 2009 5:32 pm
Subject: (no subject)
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Message 24
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1500
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