---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 07/08/09: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:07 AM - Re: CHT Temp and Max Fuel Flow in the climb (923te) 2. 11:08 AM - Re: Re: CHT Temp and Max Fuel Flow in the climb (teamgrumman@aol.com) 3. 12:38 PM - Cost savings (teamgrumman@aol.com) 4. 01:53 PM - Re: Cost savings (Bruce Smith) 5. 05:03 PM - Distance = 40" (Ned Thomas) 6. 05:04 PM - (Ned Thomas) 7. 05:33 PM - (Ned Thomas) 8. 05:33 PM - (Ned Thomas) 9. 05:33 PM - (Ned Thomas) 10. 05:33 PM - (Ned Thomas) 11. 05:34 PM - (Ned Thomas) 12. 05:34 PM - (Ned Thomas) 13. 05:34 PM - (Ned Thomas) 14. 05:34 PM - (Ned Thomas) 15. 05:35 PM - (Ned Thomas) 16. 05:35 PM - (Ned Thomas) 17. 05:35 PM - (Ned Thomas) 18. 05:35 PM - (Ned Thomas) 19. 05:36 PM - (Ned Thomas) 20. 05:36 PM - (Ned Thomas) 21. 05:38 PM - (Ned Thomas) 22. 10:11 PM - Re: (no subject) (teamgrumman@AOL.COM) 23. 10:21 PM - Re: (no subject) (teamgrumman@AOL.COM) 24. 10:51 PM - Re: Re: (no subject) (923te) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:11 AM PST US From: "923te" <923te@att.net> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: CHT Temp and Max Fuel Flow in the climb Jon, Just to give you another AG5B referenece, with my AG5B Tiger the number 3 cylinder has always had the highest CHT and EGT with number 2 cylinder being a close second for CHT and a far second for EGT. I found this interesting being that the factory had determined number 2 to be the hottest thus number 2 having the only CHT temp monitor installed from the factory. After extensive baffle work the CHT is now about the same in all the cylinders, 300 to 380 depending on OAT, but EGT higher by ~75 to ~150 degrees depending on the ignition system installed. That is conventional slick or LASAR. This from temperature monitoring while running WOT at 2700rpm continuosly for all phases of flight and usually leaned in cruise for best power ie max rpm). I attached word files, one that gives you a data point for fuel flow at 4000da one a picture for fuel flow from the following link to the fuel flow graph from lycoming for our engine is http://picasaweb.google.com/N532NC/Graphs#5301272997122682034 Gary Vogt has done extensive research on our Grummans. One of his many excellent findings is that even a change in the type of air filter used changes the CHT EGT distribution between the cylinders. As I recall the #3 cylinder temps rose with the replacement of the stock air filter with the challanger stc K&N style air filter. Amongst all the many things done to improve cooling in my Tiger the 3 in order of the greatest affect were 1) to enlarge the exit space between the intercylinder and lower baffles, located under the cylinders as revealed to me by Gary Vogt 2) to remove the flashing between the spark plugs in the cooling fins as Bob Steward mentioned and 3 to "adjust" the lower baffle in front of the front cylinders by raising the baffle. Very small changes here, like 1/16"vertical movement, make large temp changes between front and back CHT's. All three of these and many other "secrets" are written about in Kent Pacers SPEED WITH ECONMOMY book. Can you tell any differences with the roller lifter engine? Smoother? more power? Ned Jon said: 2 more quick points. My old engines hottest cylinder was number 2 and I think this is true for all of the AG Tigers. from: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 8:50 PM Subject: RE: CHT Temp and Max Fuel Flow in the climb In reply to Bob Steward's post.. Thanks Bob for the info and taking the time to reply.. You bring up one very good point and that is that I am never running 2700 rpm at sea level when looking at the maximum fuel flow instead I check it in a normal climb and (from memory) I think that would be at around 2550 rpm. So Bob what you are sayings is that I am never producing full power to see the Lycoming recommended max fuel flow of about 16+gph ? The reason that I am concentrating on fuel flow at takeoff power is that I already sent the carb back to the manufacture to enriching it from how I received it from Lycoming with the rebuilt engine. That lowered the climb cht on #3 by 10 degrees. The carb mfg told me that they have had some issues with carbs not flowing enough fuel on the new roller tappet engines. By asking other members if my numbers were similar to theirs I was hoping to determine if no further enriching is necessary. 2 more quick points. My old engines hottest cylinder was number 2 and I think this is true for all of the AG Tigers. Also like all other Tigers I had to lean like crazy on the ground and in the air. This new engine /carb does not need nearly as much leaning. Thanks again everyone for the help. Jon ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:08:43 AM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: CHT Temp and Max Fuel Flow in the climb From: teamgrumman@aol.com Hey Ned, what it is . . . .=C2- I've done a lot of messing around with the front baffles, trying to redist ribute the air to the rear cylinders. =C2-The #1 cylinder on my cowling is the hottest during climb and pretty close to the others in cruise. =C2 -On Jeff's plane, we modified the front baffle again to reduce the CHT in climb on #1 without changing the temp in cruise. =C2-Still playing with that one. =C2- #2 CHT runs the coolest (with my cowling) in climb and cruise. =C2-#4 is in line with #1 & #3 in cruise. =C2-I am looking for a way to either co ol #1, 3, & 4 or warm up #2 a little. =C2- Typical CHT is in the range of 390 to 410 in full power leaned cruise. =C2 -Jeff's CHTs are in the range of 360 to 380 in his normal cruise conditi on. =C2-Both using JPIs. -----Original Message----- From: 923te <923te@att.net> Sent: Wed, Jul 8, 2009 7:59 am Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: CHT Temp and Max Fuel Flow in the climb Jon, =C2- Just to give you another AG5B referenece, with=C2-my AG5B Tiger the number 3 cylinder has always had the highest CHT and EGT with number 2 cylinder being a close second for CHT and a far second for EGT. I found this interesting being that the factory had determined number 2 to be the hottest thus number 2 having the=C2-only CHT temp monitor install ed from the factory. After extensive baffle20work the CHT is now about the sa me in all the cylinders, 300 to 380 depending on OAT, =C2-but=C2-EGT higher by ~75 to ~150 degrees depending on the ignition system installed. That is conventional slick or LASAR.=C2-This from temperature monitoring while running WOT at 2700rpm continuosly for all phases of flight and usually leaned in cruise for best power ie max rpm). I attached word files, one=C2-that gives you a data point for fuel flow at 4000da one a picture for fuel flow from the following link to the fuel flow graph from lycoming for our engine is=C2 -http://picasaweb.google.com/N532NC/Graphs#5301272997122682034 =C2- Gary Vogt has done extensive research on our Grummans. One of his many excellent findings is that even a change in the type of air filter used changes the CHT EGT distribution between the cylinders. As I recall the #3 cylinder temps rose with the replacement of the stock air fi lter with the challanger stc K&N style air filter. =C2- Amongst all the many things done to improve cooling in my Tiger the=C2-3=C2-in order of the greatest affect were 1) to enlarge the exit space between the intercylinder and=C2-lower baffles, located under the cylinders as=C2-revealed to me by Gary Vogt 2) to remove the flashing between the spark plugs in the cooling fins as Bob Steward mentio ned and 3 to "adjust" the lower baffle in front of the front cylinders by rais ing the baffle. Very small changes here, like 1/16"vertical=C2- movement,C2make large temp changes between front and back CHT's. All three of these and many other "secrets" are written about in Kent Pacers SPEED WITH ECONMOMY book. =C2- Can you tell any differences with the roller lifter engine? Smoother? more power? Ned =C2- =C2- Jon said: 2 more quick points. My old engines hottest cylinder was number 2 and I think this is true for all of the AG Tigers. from: =C2- ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 8:50 PM Subject: RE: CHT Temp and Max Fuel Flow in the climb In reply to Bob Steward's post.. Thanks Bob for the info and taking the time to reply.. You bring up one very good point and that is that I am never running 2700 rpm at sea level when looking at the maximum fuel flow instead I check it in a normal climb and (from memory) I think that would be at around 2550 rpm. So Bob what you are sayings is that I am never producing full power to see the Lycoming recommended max fuel flow of about 16+gph ? The reason that I am concentrating on fuel flow at takeoff power is that I already sent the carb back to the manufacture to enriching it from how I received it from Lycoming with the rebuilt engine. That lowered the climb cht on #3 by 10 degrees. The carb mfg told me that they have had some issues with carbs not flowing enough fuel on=2 0the new roller tappet engines. By asking other members if my numbers were similar to theirs I was hoping to determine if no further enriching is necessary. 2 more quick points. My old engines hottest cylinder was number 2 and I think this is true for all of the AG Tigers. Also like all other Tigers I had to lean like crazy on the ground and in the air. This new engine /carb does not need nearly as much leaning. Thanks again everyone for the help. Jon ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:38:26 PM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Cost savings From: teamgrumman@aol.com Here are a couple of good ones. I realize the economy has hurt us all. =C2-Certainly a crappy time to be finishing up the cowling project. =C2-But, does this mean that one star ts to skimp on aircraft maintenance as well? =C2- Story 1: I've been maintaining a particular Tiger for 9 years now. =C2-I know the plane inside and out. =C2-Other than the paint job, I've done just about everything else on the plane. =C2- The annual is due this month and the owner called to find out how much the annual would be this year. =C2-In case you all don't know yet, I use a 14 page checklist that keeps track of everything from rudder spring total time to static rpm differences from year to year. =C2-So, as a result, I can tell you this plane needs this, this, and this, during this annual. =C2-One of the things I know this plane will need is brake linings. =C2 - The owner has talked to another mechanic who is closer. =C2-I know 'of' this mechanic; don't know him personally. =C2-This mechanic has quoted the owner $650 for the annual. =C2-Odds are, that is an annual consisti ng of a compression check. =C2- Story 2: Another customer bought a Traveler without wheel pants. =C2-He wanted wheel pants. =C2-He found wheel pants in a salvage yard; plastic wheel pants. =C2-I saw the wheel pants for which he paid $300. =C2-Th ey were cracked and broken in many places. =C2-They were in really bad shape. =C2-So, he very carefully removed ALL of the hardware20and spent days patching the wheel pants with fiberglass and plastic filler. =C2-T hen, he replaced all of the hardware. =C2-He did a lot more work on the wheel pants than would be required for new fiberglass shells. =C2-He st ills wants to 'eventually' install fiberglass shells. Finally, painted them with uncatalyzed=C2-=C2-automotive enamel. =C2 -He painted them in his driveway. =C2-He painted them after spending a couple of days sanding them smooth, priming them, sanding some more, an d then painting them with an airless sprayer from Home Depot. =C2-Can yo u say, "Orange peel."=C2- Point is, for all that work, for all that time invested, he could have had new wheel pants for another $400 or so. =C2-Then, let someone shoot the color for another $100 or so. =C2-The cost is in the preparation. He did learn a lot from his experience. =C2-That counts for something. Story 3: Several years ago a Tiger came in for an annual. =C2-The owner wanted all of the interior plastic replaced. =C2-He ordered it and had it sent to me. =C2-When I finished the annual, the owner came in to 'ch eck-it-out.' =C2-When he saw the interior plastic, untrimmed, he inquire d about the cost to install it. =C2-After I told him he said, "That's ri diculous. You should do it for free for the amount you charged me for the annual. =C2-Send the interior plastic to my home and I'll do it myself. " =C2-So, I did. I saw the plane a few years later. =C2-To say the interior plastic was poorly installed would be putting it mildly. =C2-He liked it . =C2-Oh, well, the canopy plastic rubbed on the turtle deck (the rear of the canopy opening) to where the canopy was difficult to open, but. =C2-The rear window molding wasn't trimmed to fit either. I asked who does his annual now. =C2-He smiled and proudly said, "I do. =C2-And I have a friend who is an IA and he signs it off. =C2-Costs me $75 a year." =C2-Shortly after I moved to Auburn he came by. =C2-H e wanted me to troubleshoot a myriad of problems he and his mechanic had been unable to solve. =C2-I fixed the stuck primer and removed and clea ned the primer nozzles. =C2-I gave him some ideas on where to look to so lve his other 'issues.' =C2-I charged him 1 hour for the primer and nozz les even though it took about 3 hours from start to finish: still too much .. A few months later, I heard he had crashed his plane and that he'd been ho spitalized. =C2-Apparently, the engine quit. =C2-A friend of mine who does crash investigations said they found a lot of things that contribute d to the engine failure. =C2-He said the plane didn't look like it had been annualed in 10 years. =C2-He got his money's worth. Story 4: =C2-I started maintaining a Tiger a few years ago who had belon ged to someone I knew in the 80s who had done his own annuals. =C2-This plane had been passed through 3 owners in the year previous to the curren t owner buying the plane. =C2-Corrosion as ide, it was clear this plane had not had any serious attention in 25+ year s. =C2-It did have a factory reman engine (which failed at 800 hrs last year due to no oil changes for 100 hrs at a stretch from engine install in 1998 until 2002 when flying was reduced to almost zero hours year unti l 2005.) =C2- The annuals have gone from the $7,000 range in '05 to the $1500 range this year. =C2-It's a lot more airworthy today than it was in '05. =C2-All it needs now is routine maintenance. -------------------------- Just some thoughts. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:53:49 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cost savings From: Bruce Smith Gary, I was about to ask you if you've had any interesting annuals lately. You beat me to the punch. Bruce Smith On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 15:31 -0400, teamgrumman@aol.com wrote: > Here are a couple of good ones. > > > I realize the economy has hurt us all. Certainly a crappy time to be > finishing up the cowling project. But, does this mean that one starts > to skimp on aircraft maintenance as well? > > > Story 1: I've been maintaining a particular Tiger for 9 years now. I > know the plane inside and out. Other than the paint job, I've done > just about everything else on the plane. > > > The annual is due this month and the owner called to find out how much > the annual would be this year. In case you all don't know yet, I use > a 14 page checklist that keeps track of everything from rudder spring > total time to static rpm differences from year to year. So, as a > result, I can tell you this plane needs this, this, and this, during > this annual. One of the things I know this plane will need is brake > linings. > > > The owner has talked to another mechanic who is closer. I know 'of' > this mechanic; don't know him personally. This mechanic has quoted > the owner $650 for the annual. Odds are, that is an annual consisting > of a compression check. > Story 2: Another customer bought a Traveler without wheel pants. He > wanted wheel pants. He found wheel pants in a salvage yard; plastic > wheel pants. I saw the wheel pants for which he paid $300. They were > cracked and broken in many places. They=2 0were in really bad shape. > So, he very carefully removed ALL of the hardware and spent days > patching the wheel pants with fiberglass and plastic filler. Then, he > replaced all of the hardware. He did a lot more work on the wheel > pants than would be required for new fiberglass shells. He stills > wants to 'eventually' install fiberglass shells. > > > Finally, painted them with uncatalyzed automotive enamel. He painted > them in his driveway. He painted them after spending a couple of days > sanding them smooth, priming them, sanding some more, and then > painting them with an airless sprayer from Home Depot. Can you say, > "Orange peel." > > > Point is, for all that work, for all that time invested, he could have > had new wheel pants for another $400 or so. Then, let someone shoot > the color for another $100 or so. The cost is in the preparation. > > > He did learn a lot from his experience. That counts for something. > > > Story 3: Several years ago a Tiger came in for an annual. The owner > wanted all of the interior plastic replaced. He ordered it and had it > sent to me. When I finished the annual, the owner came in to > 'check-it-out.' When he saw the interior plastic, untrimmed, he > inquired about the cost to install it. After I told him he said, > "That's ridiculous. You should do it for free for the amount you > charged me for the annual.20 Send the interior plastic to my home and > I'll do it myself." So, I did. > > > I saw the plane a few years later. To say the interior plastic was > poorly installed would be putting it mildly. He liked it. Oh, well, > the canopy plastic rubbed on the turtle deck (the rear of the canopy > opening) to where the canopy was difficult to open, but. The rear > window molding wasn't trimmed to fit either. > > > I asked who does his annual now. He smiled and proudly said, "I do. > And I have a friend who is an IA and he signs it off. Costs me $75 a > year." Shortly after I moved to Auburn he came by. He wanted me to > troubleshoot a myriad of problems he and his mechanic had been unable > to solve. I fixed the stuck primer and removed and cleaned the primer > nozzles. I gave him some ideas on where to look to solve his other > 'issues.' I charged him 1 hour for the primer and nozzles even though > it took about 3 hours from start to finish: still too much. > > > A few months later, I heard he had crashed his plane and that he'd > been hospitalized. Apparently, the engine quit. A friend of mine who > does crash investigations said they found a lot of things that > contributed to the engine failure. He said the plane didn't look like > it had been annualed in 10 years. He got his money's worth. > > > Story 4: I started maintaini ng a Tiger a few years ago who had > belonged to someone I knew in the 80s who had done his own annuals. > This plane had been passed through 3 owners in the year previous to > the current owner buying the plane. Corrosion aside, it was clear > this plane had not had any serious attention in 25+ years. It did > have a factory reman engine (which failed at 800 hrs last year due to > no oil changes for 100 hrs at a stretch from engine install in 1998 > until 2002 when flying was reduced to almost zero hours year until > 2005.) > > > The annuals have gone from the $7,000 range in '05 to the $1500 range > this year. It's a lot more airworthy today than it was in '05. All > it needs now is routine maintenance. > > > -------------------------- > > > Just some thoughts. > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:46 PM PST US From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Distance = 40" ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:19 PM PST US From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:27 PM PST US From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:27 PM PST US From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:30 PM PST US From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:48 PM PST US From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:10 PM PST US From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:37 PM PST US From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:37 PM PST US From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:57 PM PST US From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:20 PM PST US From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:28 PM PST US From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:48 PM PST US From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:57 PM PST US From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:05 PM PST US From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:13 PM PST US From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:41 PM PST US From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:45 PM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: (no subject) From: teamgrumman@AOL.COM Thanks for the photo Ned. =C2-That is the measurement I was looking for. =C2- Corl came in with his Cheetah this afternoon. =C2-His Cheetah is 40 inch es also. =C2-Weird. I talked to Dave and all that is needed is a different joggle for the cowl ing tool. =C2-Not an easy job, but one that can accommodate both sizes to get a good fit for either size. -----Original Message----- From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net> Sent: Wed, Jul 8, 2009 5:03 pm Subject: (no subject) =C2- =C2- =C2- 
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=C2- ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:32 PM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: (no subject) From: teamgrumman@AOL.COM Ned, your W&B shows 3 different weights. =C2-1400, 1460, and 1500. =C2 -Which one is real? =C2-The sample loading is not even realistic. -----Original Message----- From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net> Sent: Wed, Jul 8, 2009 5:32 pm Subject: (no subject) =C2- =C2- =C2- 
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=C2- ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:25 PM PST US From: "923te" <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: (no subject) 1500 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.