---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/04/09: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:45 AM - AYA Convention Date Restrictions - Straw Poll Results (Mike Boyd) 2. 10:52 AM - Re: AYA Convention Date Restrictions - Straw Poll Results (teamgrumman@AOL.COM) 3. 11:59 AM - Re: AYA Convention Date Restrictions - Straw Poll Results (Mike Boyd) 4. 03:42 PM - Re: AYA Convention Date Restrictions - Straw Poll Results (FCoon77901@AOL.COM) 5. 03:54 PM - Re: AYA Convention Date Restrictions - Straw Poll Results (923te) 6. 03:54 PM - Re: AYA Convention Date Restrictions - Straw Poll Results (Rick) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:03 AM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: AYA Convention Date Restrictions - Straw Poll Results From: Mike Boyd Hello Everyone, The Straw Poll should now be closed. You can review the results of the poll here: http://ayaforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=185 A total of 56 votes were cast on the forum, with 49 in favor of changing or removing the date restriction and 7 against a change. In addition, I received 4 e-mails from folks that just could not get the poll to work for them (we'll call these provisional votes) and they were of a similar percentage with 3 in favor of a change and 1 against a change. When including the provisional votes, a total of 60 votes were cast. While this does not sound like a lot when compared to our total membership of 1230 (as reported in the July Star), the roughly 5% is apparently a little larger participation than we had in the most recent election. In my periodic checking of the poll numbers while it was running, I noted that the trend of those in favor to those against a change remained fairly constant from the time when the first 10 votes were cast with 80% or greater being in favor of a change. In an effort to give all AYA members a chance to vote, notice of this poll was sent to the Grumman Gang mailing list, the TeamGruman mailing list, and a copy of the notice was sent to each of the regional directors so they could forward it on to their members (just as this e-mail is). I did receive responses from people on the Grumman Gang, on the TeamGrumman list and from several of the regional directors so, for a poll, I think it achieved a reasonable distribution. So, what does all this mean. My goal here was to see if there was enough real interest to continue pursuing a change to the AYA constitution and I think there is. So, my next step is to check and see if there are any potential legal issues with removing the date restriction from our constitution and check on any other legalities related to proposing an amendment to the board. I'll then draft an amendment and provide it for review/comment on the AYA forum topic above or via another appropriate means. Once we are reasonably happy with the results, I'll submit it to the secretary as outlined in our constitution. Your role in this will be to contact your AYA representatives once we have a final draft and provide them with your thoughts on the subject. While the poll should be a good indication to the board of the thoughts of the membership, it is best for them to hear directly from you when the time comes. Once the amendment is submitted, according to the AYA constitution the board must vote on it and if 60% or more agree, then the amendment is voted on by the membership. And what this does not mean. It is ultimately still up to the members who volunteer, make convention proposals to the board, and chair a convention to come up with proposed dates for a specific convention. All this amendment should do is loosen the restriction on the possible choices for those dates. And now, I'm off to check into those issues mentioned above. I will let you know what I find and when drafts are available. And if anyone wants to help out with any of this, please let me know. Cheers, -Mike ------ Michael Boyd '76 AA5A ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:52:41 AM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AYA Convention Date Restrictions - Straw Poll Results From: teamgrumman@AOL.COM Hi Mike, Thanks, seriously, for all your efforts. ?Don't expect anything to change. ?Even with 60% in favor of change, hell 80%, don't expect anything to change. ? A National healthcare system, for example, was first proposed in 1948. ?At that time, the U.S. ranked 16th in healthcare in the world. ?At that time, healthcare costs were 1% of the average income. ?A national healthcare system been pushed ahead with roughly 60% to 75% approval for 61 years. ?Today, the U.S. ranks 37th in healthcare and costs 25% of the average income. ?There are?still?those who are screaming it's going ahead to quickly. ? A quick note on the subject: ?I taught Algebra at the Antelope Valley Community College in Lancaster. ?I taught 4 nights a week, 2 hours a night. ?I was paid $60/hour. ?After taxes, my take home a month was roughly $1000. ?In 2004, I got an invite in the college mail to join the College Health Care System. ?For $980/month, I could get full coverage, hospital stays, low deductible, etc. ? I recently tried getting health insurance through AARP. ?For $300/month I can pay for someone to negotiate with doctors and hospitals. ? I have full benefits from the VA. ? I don't know how people afford health insurance. ?If they have any health issues at all, or history thereof, you can kiss the insurance good bye. ? OK, I'm getting off my soap box . . . . . . . .? -----Original Message----- From: Mike Boyd Sent: Tue, Aug 4, 2009 7:29 am Subject: TeamGrumman-List: AYA Convention Date Restrictions - Straw Poll Results Hello Everyone, The Straw Poll should now be closed.? You can review the results of the poll here: ??? http://ayaforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=185 A total of 56 votes were cast on the forum, with 49 in favor of changing or removing the date restriction and 7 against a change.? In addition, I received 4 e-mails from folks that just could not get the poll to work for them (we'll call these provisional votes) and they were of a similar percentage with 3 in favor of a change and 1 against a change. When including the provisional votes, a total of 60 votes were cast. While this does not sound like a lot when compared to our total membership of 1230 (as reported in the July Star), the roughly 5% is apparently a little larger participation than we had in the most recent election.? In my periodic checking of the poll numbers while it was running, I noted that the trend of those in favor to those against a change remained fairly constant from the time when the first 10 votes were cast with 80% or greater being in favor of a change. In an effort to give all AYA members a chance to vote, notice of this poll was sent to the Grumman Gang mailing list, the TeamGruman mailing list, and a copy of the notice was sent to each of the regional directors so they could forward it on to their members (just as this e-mail is).? I did receive responses from people on the Grumman Gang, on the TeamGrumman list and from several of the regional directors so, for a poll, I think it achieved a reasonable distribution. So, what does all this mean.? My goal here was to see if there was enough real interest to continue pursuing a change to the AYA constitution and I think there is.? So, my next step is to check and see if there are any potential legal issues with removing the date restriction from our constitution and check on any other legalities related to proposing an amendment to the board.? I'll then draft an amendment and provide it for review/comment on the AYA forum topic above or via another appropriate means.? Once we are reasonably happy with the results, I'll submit it to the secretary as outlined in our constitution.? Your role in this will be to contact your AYA representatives once we have a final draft and provide them with your thoughts on the subject.? While the poll should be a good indication to the board of the thoughts of the membership, it is best for them to hear directly from you when the time comes.? Once the amendment is submitted, according to the AYA constitution the board must vote on it and if 60% or more agree, then the amendment is voted on by the membership. And what this does not mean.? It is ultimately still up to the members who volunteer, make convention proposals to the board, and chair a convention to come up with proposed dates for a specific convention. All this amendment should do is loosen the restriction on the possible choices for those dates. And now, I'm off to check into those issues mentioned above.? I will let you know what I find and when drafts are available.? And if anyone wants to help out with any of this, please let me know. Cheers, -Mike ------ Michael Boyd '76 AA5A ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:59:12 AM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AYA Convention Date Restrictions - Straw Poll Results From: Mike Boyd Hi Gary, Well, I hope that the AYA as an organization isn't that bad. Thus far everyone that has contacted me seems rather encouraging of the effort, including several regional directors (a.k.a board members). The reason I started this stems from the number of times this topic has come up on one or more of the forums since I became a Grumman owner and yet I was unaware of any formal attempt to change it. The AYA constitution does contain the information on how to amend the constitution and so this should be a very public and open attempt to do that. If it makes it to a vote of the membership, that is the best possible outcome as the membership then decides. If the membership fails to vote (and with a turnout of less than 5% for the last election, that is possible), then it's not the fault of the organization's leadership. If the board does not hear enough interest from their members, then this too is not the fault of the board. If the board blocks the attempt with no sound reason, then that will be the point I would be upset and reconsider my membership in the organization...as the leadership would have demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt to me that they are not representing their members. For now I choose to trust the leadership...and as a number of people have mentioned...we will see what happens. I'm willing to put forth the effort and hope for the best. Now...as for healthcare...well...I don't think I'll go there right now... ;-) Cheers, -Mike ------ Michael Boyd mwboyd@gmail.com On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 11:46 AM, wrote: > Hi Mike, > Thanks, seriously, for all your efforts. Don't expect anything to change. > Even with 60% in favor of change, hell 80%, don't expect anything to > change. > A National healthcare system, for example, was first proposed in 1948. At > that time, the U.S. ranked 16th in healthcare in the world. At that time, > healthcare costs were 1% of the average income. A national healthcare > system been pushed ahead with roughly 60% to 75% approval for 61 years. > Today, the U.S. ranks 37th in healthcare and costs 25% of the average > income. There arestillthose who are screaming it's going ahead to > quickly. > A quick note on the subject: I taught Algebra at the Antelope Valley > Community College in Lancaster. I taught 4 nights a week, 2 hours a night. > I was paid $60/hour. After taxes, my take home a month was roughly $1000. > In 2004, I got an invite in the college mail to join the College Health > Care System. For $980/month, I could get full coverage, hospital stays, low > deductible, etc. > I recently tried getting health insurance through AARP. For $300/month I > can pay for someone to negotiate with doctors and hospitals. > I have full benefits from the VA. > I don't know how people afford health insurance. If they have any health > issues at all, or history thereof, you can kiss the insurance good bye. > OK, I'm getting off my soap box . . . . . . . . > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Boyd > To: Grumman Gang ; > teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tue, Aug 4, 2009 7:29 am > Subject: TeamGrumman-List: AYA Convention Date Restrictions - Straw Poll > Results > > > Hello Everyone, > > The Straw Poll should now be closed. You can review the results of > the poll here: > http://ayaforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=185 > > A total of 56 votes were cast on the forum, with 49 in favor of > changing or removing the date restriction and 7 against a change. In > addition, I received 4 e-mails from folks that just could not get the > poll to work for them (we'll call these provisional votes) and they > were of a similar percentage with 3 in favor of a change and 1 against > a change. > > When including the provisional votes, a total of 60 votes were cast. > While this does not sound like a lot when compared to our total > membership of 1230 (as reported in the July Star), the roughly 5% is > apparently a little larger participation than we had in the most > recent election. In my periodic checking of the poll numbers while it > was running, I noted that the trend of those in favor to those against > a change remained fairly constant from the time when the first 10 > votes were cast with 80% or greater being in favor of a change. > > In an effort to give all AYA members a chance to vote, notice of this > poll was sent to the Grumman Gang mailing list, the TeamGruman mailing > list, and a copy of the notice was sent to each of the regional > directors so they could forward it on to their members (just as this > e-mail is). I did receive responses from people on the Grumman Gang, > on the TeamGrumman list and from several of the regional directors so, > for a poll, I think it achieved a reasonable distribution. > > So, what does all this mean. My goal here was to see if there was > enough real interest to continue pursuing a change to the AYA > constitution and I think there is. So, my next step is to check and > see if there are any potential legal issues with removing the date > restriction from our constitution and check on any other legalities > related to proposing an amendment to the board. I'll then draft an > amendment and provide it for review/comment on the AYA forum topic > above or via another appropriate means. Once we are reasonably happy > with the results, I'll submit it to the secretary as outlined in our > constitution. Your role in this will be to contact your AYA > representatives once we have a final draft and provide them with your > thoughts on the subject. While the poll should be a good indication > to the board of the thoughts of the membership, it is best for them to > hear directly from you when the time comes. Once the amendment is > submitted, according to the AYA constitution the board must vote on it > and if 60% or more agree, then the amendment is voted on by the > membership. > > And what this does not mean. It is ultimately still up to the members > who volunteer, make convention proposals to the board, and chair a > convention to come up with proposed dates for a specific convention. > All this amendment should do is loosen the restriction on the possible > choices for those dates. > > And now, I'm off to check into those issues mentioned above. I will > let you know what I find and when drafts are available. And if anyone > wants to help out with any of this, please let me know. > > Cheers, > -Mike > > ------ > Michael Boyd > '76 AA5A > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:42:28 PM PST US From: FCoon77901@AOL.COM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AYA Convention Date Restrictions - Straw Poll Results I don.t want change. Please tell us the 36 countries offering better health care... Fred Coon Cancer survivor Former N9881U owner In a message dated 8/4/2009 12:53:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, teamgrumman@aol.com writes: Hi Mike, Thanks, seriously, for all your efforts. Don't expect anything to change. Even with 60% in favor of change, hell 80%, don't expect anything to change. A National healthcare system, for example, was first proposed in 1948. At that time, the U.S. ranked 16th in healthcare in the world. At that time, healthcare costs were 1% of the average income. A national healthcare system been pushed ahead with roughly 60% to 75% approval for 61 years. Today, the U.S. ranks 37th in healthcare and costs 25% of the average income. There are still those who are screaming it's going ahead to quickly. A quick note on the subject: I taught Algebra at the Antelope Valley Community College in Lancaster. I taught 4 nights a week, 2 hours a night. I was paid $60/hour. After taxes, my take home a month was roughly $1000. In 2004, I got an invite in the college mail to join the College Health Care System. For $980/month, I could get full coverage, hospital stays, low deductible, etc. I recently tried getting health insurance through AARP. For $300/month I can pay for someone to negotiate with doctors and hospitals. I have full benefits from the VA. I don't know how people afford health insurance. If they have any health issues at all, or history thereof, you can kiss the insurance good bye. OK, I'm getting off my soap box . . . . . . . . -----Original Message----- From: Mike Boyd teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Tue, Aug 4, 2009 7:29 am Subject: TeamGrumman-List: AYA Convention Date Restrictions - Straw Poll Results (mailto:mwboyd@gmail.com) > Hello Everyone, The Straw Poll should now be closed. You can review the results of the poll here: _http://ayaforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=185_ (http://ayaforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=185) A total of 56 votes were cast on the forum, with 49 in favor of changing or removing the date restriction and 7 against a change. In addition, I received 4 e-mails from folks that just could not get the poll to work for them (we'll call these provisional votes) and they were of a similar percentage with 3 in favor of a change and 1 against a change. When including the provisional votes, a total of 60 votes were cast. While this does not sound like a lot when compared to our total membership of 1230 (as reported in the July Star), the roughly 5% is apparently a little larger participation than we had in the most recent election. In my periodic checking of the poll numbers while it was running, I noted that the trend of those in favor to those against a change remained fairly constant from the time when the first 10 votes were cast with 80% or greater being in favor of a change. In an effort to give all AYA members a chance to vote, notice of this poll was sent to the Grumman Gang mailing list, the TeamGruman mailing list, and a copy of the notice was sent to each of the regional directors so they could forward it on to their members (just as this e-mail is). I did receive responses from people on the Grumman Gang, on the TeamGrumman list and from several of the regional directors so, for a poll, I think it achieved a reasonable distribution. So, what does all this mean. My goal here was to see if there was enough real interest to continue pursuing a change to the AYA constitution and I think there is. So, my next step is to check and see if there are any potential legal issues with removing the date restriction from our constitution and check on any other legalities related to proposing an amendment to the board. I'll then draft an amendment and provide it for review/comment on the AYA forum topic above or via another appropriate means. Once we are reasonably happy with the results, I'll submit it to the secretary as outlined in our constitution. Your role in this will be to contact your AYA representatives once we have a final draft and provide them with your thoughts on the subject. While the poll should be a good indication to the board of the thoughts of the membership, it is best for them to hear directly from you when the time comes. Once the amendment is submitted, according to the AYA constitution the board must vote on it and if 60% or more agree, then the amendment is voted on by the membership. And what this does not mean. It is ultimately still up to the members who volunteer, make convention proposals to the board, and chair a convention to come up with proposed dates for a specific convention. All this amendment should do is loosen the restriction on the possible choices for those dates. And now, I'm off to check into those issues mentioned above. I will let you know what I find and when drafts are available. And if anyone wants to help out with any of this, please let me know. Cheers, -Mike ------ Michael Boyd '76 AA5A (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:54:22 PM PST US From: "923te" <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AYA Convention Date Restrictions - Straw Poll Results People can make statistics support anything. Why trust WHO? read this: http://smartgirlnation.com/2009/06/01/popular-ranking-unfairly-misreprese nts-the-us-health-care-system/ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:54:22 PM PST US From: "Rick " Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: AYA Convention Date Restrictions - Straw Poll Results 1 France 2 Italy 3 San Marino 4 Andorra 5 Malta 6 Singapore 7 Spain 8 Oman 9 Austria 10 Japan 11 Norway 12 Portugal 13 Monaco 14 Greece 15 Iceland 16 Luxembourg 17 Netherlands 18 United Kingdom 19 Ireland 20 Switzerland 21 Belgium 22 Colombia 23 Sweden 24 Cyprus 25 Germany 26 Saudi Arabia 27 United Arab Emirates 28 Israel 29 Morocco 30 Canada 31 Finland 32 Australia 33 Chile 34 Denmark 35 Dominica 36 Costa Rica 37 United States of America _____ From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FCoon77901@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 3:42 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AYA Convention Date Restrictions - Straw Poll Results I don.t want change. Please tell us the 36 countries offering better health care... Fred Coon Cancer survivor Former N9881U owner In a message dated 8/4/2009 12:53:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, teamgrumman@aol.com writes: Hi Mike, Thanks, seriously, for all your efforts. Don't expect anything to change. Even with 60% in favor of change, hell 80%, don't expect anything to change. A National healthcare system, for example, was first proposed in 1948. At that time, the U.S. ranked 16th in healthcare in the world. At that time, healthcare costs were 1% of the average income. A national healthcare system been pushed ahead with roughly 60% to 75% approval for 61 years. Today, the U.S. ranks 37th in healthcare and costs 25% of the average income. There are still those who are screaming it's going ahead to quickly. A quick note on the subject: I taught Algebra at the Antelope Valley Community College in Lancaster. I taught 4 nights a week, 2 hours a night. I was paid $60/hour. After taxes, my take home a month was roughly $1000. In 2004, I got an invite in the college mail to join the College Health Care System. For $980/month, I could get full coverage, hospital stays, low deductible, etc. I recently tried getting health insurance through AARP. For $300/month I can pay for someone to negotiate with doctors and hospitals. I have full benefits from the VA. I don't know how people afford health insurance. If they have any health issues at all, or history thereof, you can kiss the insurance good bye. OK, I'm getting off my soap box . . . . . . . . -----Original Message----- From: Mike Boyd teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Tue, Aug 4, 2009 7:29 am Subject: TeamGrumman-List: AYA Convention Date Restrictions - Straw Poll Results Hello Everyone, The Straw Poll should now be closed. You can review the results of the poll here: http://ayaforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=185 A total of 56 votes were cast on the forum, with 49 in favor of changing or removing the date restriction and 7 against a change. In addition, I received 4 e-mails from folks that just could not get the poll to work for them (we'll call these provisional votes) and they were of a similar percentage with 3 in favor of a change and 1 against a change. When including the provisional votes, a total of 60 votes were cast. While this does not sound like a lot when compared to our total membership of 1230 (as reported in the July Star), the roughly 5% is apparently a little larger participation than we had in the most recent election. In my periodic checking of the poll numbers while it was running, I noted that the trend of those in favor to those against a change remained fairly constant from the time when the first 10 votes were cast with 80% or greater being in favor of a change. In an effort to give all AYA members a chance to vote, notice of this poll was sent to the Grumman Gang mailing list, the TeamGruman mailing list, and a copy of the notice was sent to each of the regional directors so they could forward it on to their members (just as this e-mail is). I did receive responses from people on the Grumman Gang, on the TeamGrumman list and from several of the regional directors so, for a poll, I think it achieved a reasonable distribution. So, what does all this mean. My goal here was to see if there was enough real interest to continue pursuing a change to the AYA constitution and I think there is. So, my next step is to check and see if there are any potential legal issues with removing the date restriction from our constitution and check on any other legalities related to proposing an amendment to the board. I'll then draft an amendment and provide it for review/comment on the AYA forum topic above or via another appropriate means. Once we are reasonably happy with the results, I'll submit it to the secretary as outlined in our constitution. Your role in this will be to contact your AYA representatives once we have a final draft and provide them with your thoughts on the subject. While the poll should be a good indication to the board of the thoughts of the membership, it is best for them to hear directly from you when the time comes. Once the amendment is submitted, according to the AYA constitution the board must vote on it and if 60% or more agree, then the amendment is voted on by the membership. And what this does not mean. It is ultimately still up to the members who volunteer, make convention proposals to the board, and chair a convention to come up with proposed dates for a specific convention. All this amendment should do is loosen the restriction on the possible choices for those dates. And now, I'm off to check into those issues mentioned above. I will let you know what I find and when drafts are available. And if anyone wants to help out with any of this, please let me know. Cheers, -Mike ------ Michael Boyd '76 AA5A =================================== ist href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matron ics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List =================================== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com =================================== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== _____ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.