---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 09/10/09: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:54 AM - Re: oil filler door. (Doug Ilg) 2. 05:42 AM - Re: Tach accuracy (flyv35b) 3. 05:44 AM - Re: oil filler door. (flyv35b) 4. 08:07 AM - Re: Tach accuracy (923te) 5. 09:17 AM - Re: Lincoln Skyways (teamgrumman@AOL.com) 6. 09:17 AM - Re: Tach accuracy (Gil Alexander) 7. 09:31 AM - Re: Lincoln Skyways (cwleach) 8. 07:17 PM - Re: Air Sea Rescue (Davie Alison) 9. 09:16 PM - Lincoln Skyways (GOLDPILOT@AOL.COM) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:54:47 AM PST US From: Doug Ilg Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: oil filler door. Rich,=0A=0AYou were lucky to have gotten good service at College Park in th ose days.- The guy that ran that shop (a well-known local traffic reporte r) ended up becoming notorious for bad business practices.- We got rid of him in the-late 90s.- Since 9/11, of course, we have no real FBO at al l.- Just fuel.- =0A-=0ADoug Ilg=0AGrumman Tiger N74818, College Park-Airport (KCGS), Maryland=0AChallenger II LSS (N641LG-reserved)- - kit underway at Laurel Suburban (W18)=0A=0AFrom: "n32romeo@aol.com" =0A>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: oil filler door.=0A>=0A>=0A >I landed at College Park outside of DC in '85.- The line boy came out an d said "you have a hole in your cowl".- The oil check door was gone.- I t was evident that the hinge pin failed.- The FBO A&P and I fabricated a new door, which is still on the plane. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:49 AM PST US From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Tach accuracy I gave up on mechanical tachs years ago. If you really want to know what y our RPM is (accurately) there is no substitute. If you want to evaluate pe rformance changes or whether or not you have the prop pitched the way you w ant it or not an electronic digital readout tach is essential. For instanc e what improvement in static rpm and full throttle rpm do you get with the addition of a Power Flow exhaust or HC pistons in a Cheetah. How does full throttle rpm change with altitude and other similar questions you many wan t answers to. It amazes me sometimes that people don't mind spending $10K on a new Garmin 430W installation but they won't spend an extra $200 to buy an electronic tach over a mechanical one! Cliff ----- Original Message ----- From: Gil Alexander To: n26390@aol.com ; teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 8:16 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Tach accuracy Century Instruments IIRC - the problem is that they can't legally overhau l it, they can just inspect and repaint the dial. Something to do with not having the full data from Stewart Warner. The speedometer shop fairies might do better....:^) gil A At 06:01 PM 9/9/2009, you wrote: Gil: Recently discovered that I have an Tach accuracy problem, was ref erred to a shop in Houston. But, was warned about overhaul problems with n umerous shops around the country..so, will probably go with a new mechanica l Tach with a warranty. Who overhauled your Tach=3F Thanks, Roger Roger Rucker AA5A '78 HWO -----Original Message----- From: Gil Alexander To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:33 pm Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Tach accuracy Yep... I sent my mechanical one for overhaul because it was about 125 r pm out, It came back with the same error...:^) The airpark pilots tell me that the local Tucson speedometer shop can r e-calibrate it without telling the FAA, but I bought a digital one instead. The old one went on e-bay for $50.... gil A At 01:58 PM 9/9/2009, you wrote: I couldn't find anything either. The buyer wants a new one not reali zing it is probably 100 rpm wrong to begin with. -----Original Message----- From: Gil Alexander To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:29 am Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Tach accuracy ink.net> Gary, I don't think so, since this came from AC 20-37D AIRCRAFT METAL PROPELLER MAINTENANCE on care of metal props - note the bit on no post-manufacture accuracy . It might be hidden in the SAE standard referenced by TSO C94 for tach ometers, but the SAE has deemed it necessary to charge $$ for all of their documents. ...but this really old FAA TSO gives the original 1954 accuracy as 25 rpm at room temp.... http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory=5Fand=5FGuidance=5FLibrary/rgTSO.nsf/0/985307 e8eb1b9a1986256e930061198b/$FILE/c49.pdf The link above is to the TSO and also to SAE AS404A This SAE $$ document is now at rev. C - but, like the text below says , no post-manufacture stuff is probably in rev C.... I seem to remember the 150 rpm from one of the FAA Mechanics AC books , but I can't presently find it - but it was not a FAR -- gil A -------------------- AC 20-37D text extract ------------- 8. TACHOMETER INSPECTION. Due to the exceptionally high stresses that may be generated by parti cular propeller/engine combinations at certain engine revolutions per minute (RPM), many pro peller and aircraft manufacturers have established areas of RPM restrictions and other re strictions on maximum RPM for some models. Some RPM limits have never exceed values as clos e as 3 percent of the maximum RPM permitted, and a slow-running tachometer can cause an eng ine to run past the maximum RPM limits. Since there are no post-manufacture accuracy requ irements for engine tachometers, tachometer inaccuracy could be a direct cause of propell er failure, excessive vibration, or unscheduled maintenance. Tachometer accuracy should alw ays be checked during normal maintenance intervals or sooner if indicators such as excessiv e vibration or aircraft performance changes might indicate inaccurate RPM readings. --------------------------- At 12:01 AM 9/9/2009, teamgrumman@aol.com wrote: >Is there a regulation, FAR, saying the tach cannot be placarded and >must be replaced if the tach is more than 150 rpm wrong=3F I can't >find it if there is one. TeamGrumman-List Email Forum - http://www.matronics.com/Navigator=3FTeamGrumman-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. http://www.matronics.com/contribution TeamGrumman-List Email Forum - http://www.matronics.com/Navigator=3FTeamGrumman-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. http://www.matronics.com/contribution =5F-=========================================================== =5F-= - The TeamGrumman-List Email Forum - =5F-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse =5F-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, =5F-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, =5F-= Photoshare, and much much more: =5F- =5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator=3FTeamGrumman-List =5F- =5F-=========================================================== =5F-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - =5F-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! =5F- =5F-= --> http://forums.matronics.com =5F- =5F-=========================================================== =5F-= - List Contribution Web Site - =5F-= Thank you for your generous support! =5F-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution =5F-=========================================================== -- We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. The Professional version does not have this message ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:08 AM PST US From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: oil filler door. How did it fit=3F The stock door is a slight compound curve as I recall, mak ing it difficult to fabricate just cutting out of a flat sheet. You can al ways use an English wheel, etc to help it along. Cliff ----- Original Message ----- From: n32romeo@aol.com To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 10:41 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: oil filler door. I landed at College Park outside of DC in '85. The line boy came out and said =22you have a hole in your cowl=22. The oil check door was gone. It was evident that the hinge pin failed. The FBO A&P and I fabricated a new doo r, which is still on the plane. Rich Harrison N1632Romeo Dog is my Co-Pilot =22Grumman=22 -----Original Message----- From: teamgrumman@AOL.COM To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Wed, Sep 9, 2009 12:06 am Subject: TeamGrumman-List: oil filler door. Lincoln is saying the oil filler door hinge (hinge is sloppy, it shuts an d locks tight but it's worn) is an airworthiness issue and wants to charge a seller (customer of mine) $200 to fix it. =5F-=========================================================== =5F-= - The TeamGrumman-List Email Forum - =5F-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse =5F-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, =5F-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, =5F-= Photoshare, and much much more: =5F- =5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator=3FTeamGrumman-List =5F- =5F-=========================================================== =5F-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - =5F-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! =5F- =5F-= --> http://forums.matronics.com =5F- =5F-=========================================================== =5F-= - List Contribution Web Site - =5F-= Thank you for your generous support! =5F-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution =5F-=========================================================== -- We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. The Professional version does not have this message ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:37 AM PST US From: "923te" <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Tach accuracy Hi Gil, Just curious what you used to check the accuracy of your tach? ned ----- Original Message ----- From: Gil Alexander To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 7:33 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Tach accuracy Yep... I sent my mechanical one for overhaul because it was about 125 rpm out, It came back with the same error...:^) The airpark pilots tell me that the local Tucson speedometer shop can re-calibrate it without telling the FAA, but I bought a digital one instead. The old one went on e-bay for $50.... gil A At 01:58 PM 9/9/2009, you wrote: I couldn't find anything either. The buyer wants a new one not realizing it is probably 100 rpm wrong to begin with. -----Original Message----- From: Gil Alexander To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:29 am Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Tach accuracy Gary, I don't think so, since this came from AC 20-37D AIRCRAFT METAL PROPELLER MAINTENANCE on care of metal props - note the bit on no post-manufacture accuracy. It might be hidden in the SAE standard referenced by TSO C94 for tachometers, but the SAE has deemed it necessary to charge $$ for all of their documents. ...but this really old FAA TSO gives the original 1954 accuracy as 25 rpm at room temp.... http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgTSO.nsf/0/985307e8eb 1b9a1986256e930061198b/$FILE/c49.pdf The link above is to the TSO and also to SAE AS404A This SAE $$ document is now at rev. C - but, like the text below says, no post-manufacture stuff is probably in rev C.... I seem to remember the 150 rpm from one of the FAA Mechanics AC books, but I can't presently find it - but it was not a FAR -- gil A -------------------- AC 20-37D text extract ------------- 8. TACHOMETER INSPECTION. Due to the exceptionally high stresses that may be generated by particular propeller/engine combinations at certain engine revolutions per minute (RPM), many propeller and aircraft manufacturers have established areas of RPM restrictions and other restrictions on maximum RPM for some models. Some RPM limits have never exceed values as close as 3 percent of the maximum RPM permitted, and a slow-running tachometer can cause an engine to run past the maximum RPM limits. Since there are no post-manufacture accuracy requirements for engine tachometers, tachometer inaccuracy could be a direct cause of propeller failure, excessive vibration, or unscheduled maintenance. Tachometer accuracy should always be checked during normal maintenance intervals or sooner if indicators such as excessive vibration or aircraft performance changes might indicate inaccurate RPM readings. --------------------------- At 12:01 AM 9/9/2009, teamgrumman@aol.com wrote: >Is there a regulation, FAR, saying the tach cannot be placarded and >must be replaced if the tach is more than 150 rpm wrong? I can't >find it if there is one. TeamGrumman-List Email Forum - http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:17:17 AM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Lincoln Skyways From: teamgrumman@AOL.com Corl,? The things they told the buyer and the seller were airworthy issues that NEEDED to be completed before it was airworthy, were largely cosmetic. ?Many items, such as needing to replace the Clevis pin on the bottom of the master cylinders because there was too much play in them were bullshit. ?You CAN'T take out the play or the pivot won't work correctly. ?Without removing the pin, there is no way of knowing IF it needs to be replaced. ?They wanted nearly $450 to replace the mechanical tach. ?They claimed the hoses NEEDED to be marked with torque seal to be legal. ?That's bullshit too. ?Appendix D just says to make sure the hoses are tight. ?If they are not leaking, they are tight. Bottom line is, they are trying to gouge the buyer and the seller. ?What they wrote up as airworthy and claim needs to be done to make the plane airworthy tells me they have a tendency to stretch the truth. ?Either that, or they don't know what AIRWORTHY means. Example: the vernier mixture cable they claim needs to be replaced because the owner didn't send down the paperwork. ?OK. ?I'll buy that. ?BUT, the price to replace the cable was $450. ?Fletcher sells the stock one for $50. ? Example: ?The brake lines have some corrosion on them. ?Most brake lines do. ?The problem is, Skyways told the buyer they NEED to be replaced because they MIGHT leak. ?OK. ?Fair enough. ?Then, let's replace the engine too because it MIGHT quit. ? Example: ?Skyways called the nose strut a nose 'spring' and said because the rock chips had some rust in them that the nose 'spring' was unairworthy and needed to be repainted before they signed it off as airworthy. Shall I go on? Greg Ketell (?) had a similar problem when his plane was on lease back in Livermore. ?Going back through the logs I was amazed to find stuff that would never need replacement/service being repaired or replaced. In the last 25 years of working on Grummans, I've never done unnecessary maintenance just to make a few bucks. ?Maybe I'll start finding a lot of cowlings with too many cracks to be airworthy. -----Original Message----- From: cwleach Sent: Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:26 pm Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Lincoln Skyways In regards to what, Gary? Grumman made a mighty fine line of canoes and even RVs at one time. Personally, I wouldn't worry about there being true make/model competition in your area ... but I certainly wouldn't hesitate having them work on my plane when the task is relatively generic such as replacing a failed magneto or starter ... not that I'd know anything about that! :-) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262377#262377 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:17:17 AM PST US From: Gil Alexander Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Tach accuracy Hi Ned, I used a borrowed digital model rpm gauge - worked great. Just pointed it forward from the cockpit when in flight. They can be checked for accuracy against the 60/120 Hz component of mains driven lights. Cheap too -- http://www.towerhobbies.com/products/towp1221.html It will even work on three bladed props....:^) gil A At 08:05 AM 9/10/2009, you wrote: >Hi Gil, > >Just curious what you used to check the accuracy of your tach? > >ned >----- Original Message ----- >From: Gil Alexander >To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com >Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 7:33 PM >Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Tach accuracy > >Yep... I sent my mechanical one for overhaul because it was about >125 rpm out, It came back with the same error...:^) > >The airpark pilots tell me that the local Tucson speedometer shop >can re-calibrate it without telling the FAA, but I bought a digital >one instead. > >The old one went on e-bay for $50.... gil A > >At 01:58 PM 9/9/2009, you wrote: >>I couldn't find anything either. The buyer wants a new one not >>realizing it is probably 100 rpm wrong to begin with. > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:31:55 AM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Lincoln Skyways From: "cwleach" Was there a specific incident that triggered this thread? I know the folks at Lincoln Skyways fairly well and would be happy to obtain the details .... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262430#262430 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:55 PM PST US From: Davie Alison Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Air Sea Rescue I've jumped out of Thai C-130s in Korat and Udon Thani. --- On Wed, 9/9/09, teamgrumman@aol.com wrote: > I forgot to add, I was stationed with the > 56th Air Rescue and Recovery Sqdn and later the 40th ARRS in > Korat and NKP Thailand. > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:29 PM PST US From: GOLDPILOT@AOL.COM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Lincoln Skyways John Coze has used them for quite a while for his 260 HP Grumman. He likes their work. Check with him. He is based at LHM. _Johncgrumm@aol.com_ (mailto:Johncgrumm@aol.com) David ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.