Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:59 AM - Re: horizontal braces (flyv35b)
2. 06:46 AM - Re: cranking pressure (flyv35b)
3. 11:19 AM - Re: cranking pressure (teamgrumman@aol.com)
4. 11:40 AM - Replacing rudder springs (teamgrumman@aol.com)
5. 01:34 PM - IMG00070-20091027-1034.jpg (Denham, Bobby D.)
6. 01:39 PM - IMG00064-20091025-0829.jpg (Denham, Bobby D.)
7. 06:35 PM - Re: cranking pressure (James Courtney)
8. 06:53 PM - Re: IMG00070-20091027-1034.jpg (James Courtney)
9. 07:54 PM - Re: cranking pressure (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: horizontal braces |
You are becoming the tail crack =22expert=22. If I run across any I'm going to
send them down to you!
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 8:29 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: horizontal braces
I delivered the plane Saturday with the new horizontal braces. One obser
vation: it could be me but, I think the horizontal felt stiffer than even
the one on my plane. Plane flew well. I did some steep turns and pulled a
couple of g's.
We'll see.
I have 3 more planes with cracks.
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: cranking pressure |
I've have lots of other stuff to chew on but here is a thought without givi
ng it much thought! You obviously are aware of dynamic compression ratio w
hich is affected by valve timing and probably more significant that static
CR. I would GUESS that something is different on the #3 cylinder valve tim
ing like you mentioned. Short of a camshaft that is maybe not to spec I wo
uld suspect that an intake lifter is bleeding down rapidly or the dry tappe
t clearance is out of spec, resulting in an early intake valve closing, les
s overlap, and therefore higher dynamic CR and cranking pressure. I would
wonder if the difference you are seeing would result in a rough running eng
ine. How smooth does it run=3F
Also there could be other factors like the actual combustion chamber cleara
nce volume and therefore static CR. On my Porsche engine a .010=22 change in
piston deck height changes the static CR by 0.25 points. A small change i
n combustion chamber volume changes it even more. I could imagine some man
ufacturing variables with the cylinder which could at least partially accou
nt for the difference in cranking pressure. Seems like the easiest thing t
o check or try would be to check the dry tappet clearance on at least #3 an
d #4 and swap the intake hydraulic lifters and retest the cranking pressure
. That might tell you a lot. Having the tester that Bill Scott uses to te
st the leakdown rate would be very informative possibly.
BTW, I assume the cranking pressures you mentioned for Cheetahs is with the
stock engine with 7.0:1 CR=3F
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 8:21 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: cranking pressure
Cliff, here's one for you to chew on.
I've been doing both leak down and cranking pressure tests now for about
a year. Tigers generally run 130-135. One Lycon Tiger was 145 across the
board. Cheetahs run about 125 to 130.
I did a cranking pressure test on a Tiger last weekend with
(1) 125 psi
(2) 123 psi
(3) 142 psi
(4) 120 psi
I redid the #3 4 times and got the same value. Something is changing the
valve timing events enough to cause this difference. I didn't go any furt
her into it. The leak down tests were 79/78/78/78
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: cranking pressure |
Funny you should ask about the Cheetah compression ratio. I haven't seen
a stock compression ratio Cheetah in years. Those values are for the HC
pistons.
This particular engine with the weird #3 cranking pressure had the #1 cyli
nder replaced a few months ago by Pacific Air Care in Watsonville, CA. My
thought is, the plane doesn't get much use and there is a good chance the
lifters are all gummed up. I wish I had seen the plane to replace the cy
linder. I'd know what shape the lifters were in.
When James Courtney had a cylinder fail over San Francisco bay I had a cha
nce to see the lifters before I put everything back together. They were
carboned up to the point they did not collapse at all. We ended up doing
a complete top end overhaul. The cylinders had about 1100 hours on them
and I didn't trust that the other valves would fail. Besides, you know
I recommend new cylinders at 1000 hours.
Whatever is weird with the #3 it's either causing the cylinder not to scav
enge the exhaust or the intake event is closing early. Either way, leak
down didn't show anything.
-----Original Message-----
From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
Sent: Tue, Oct 27, 2009 6:22 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: cranking pressure
I've have lots of other stuff to chew on but here is a
thought without giving it much thought! You obviously are aware of dynami
c
compression ratio which is affected by valve timing and probably more
significant that static CR. I would GUESS that something is different on
the #3 cylinder valve timing like you mentioned. Short of a camshaft that
is maybe not to spec I would suspect that an intake lifter is bleeding dow
n
rapidly or the dry tappet clearance is out of spec, resulting in an early
intake
valve closing, less overlap, and therefore higher dynamic CR and cranking
pressure. I would wonder if the difference you are seeing would result in
a rough running engine. How smooth does it run?
Also there could be other factors like the actual
combustion chamber clearance volume and therefore static CR. On my Porsch
e
engine a .010" change in piston deck height changes the static CR by 0.25
points. A small change in combustion chamber volume changes it even
more. I could imagine some manufacturing variables with the cylinder whic
h
could at least partially account for the difference in cranking pressure.
Seems like the easiest thing to check or try would be to check the dry tap
pet
clearance on at least #3 and #4 and swap the intake hydraulic lifters and
retest
the cranking pressure. That might tell you a lot. Having the tester
that Bill Scott uses to test the leakdown rate would be very informative
possibly.
BTW, I assume the cranking pressures you mentioned for
Cheetahs is with the stock engine with 7.0:1 CR?
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From:
teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 8:21
PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: cranking
pressure
Cliff, here's one for you
to chew on.
I've been doing both leak down and cranking pressure tests now for about
a year. Tigers generally run 130-135. One Lycon Tiger was 145
across the board. Cheetahs run about 125 to 130.
I did a cranking pressure test on a Tiger last weekend with
(1) 125 psi
(2) 123 psi
(3) 142 psi
(4) 120 psi
I redid the #3 4 times and got the same value. Something is
changing the valve timing events enough to cause this difference. I
didn't go any further into it. The leak down tests were
79/78/78/78
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Replacing rudder springs |
I got an email from one of my customers who'd seen me replace rudder sprin
gs regarding a post on the other site regarding rudder spring replacement.
He sent the email too.
Using nickels to spread the spring so you can install it? That's a joke,
right?
Forward this to the experts on GG
(1) Get three two-foot rubber bungie cords, the thick rubber ones.
(2) Remove the seats, hook the rubber bungie cord onto the top of one of
the rudder peddles and stretch it back to the seat bracket and hook it th
ere. Repeat with the other two bungie cords.
NOTE: You find one spring stretched, the other will be loose with no
load on it all all.
(3) Get some vise grips and grab the loop on the end of the old rudder spr
ing. Sometimes the firewall is easier to remove, sometimes the peddle sid
e. Your choice.
(4) Twist the loop out of the hole where it goes through
(5) Remove the spring.
(6) Get the new spring, hook it on the peddle side and stretch it enough
to get it on the firewall attachment. It's really quite easy.
Repeat with the other side. Both springs can be replaced from the co-pilo
ts side without removing the pilots console cover.
I've been doing it this way for 20 years.
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| Subject: | IMG00070-20091027-1034.jpg |
DQotLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KU2VudCB1c2luZyBCbGFja0JlcnJ5DQo
Message 6
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| Subject: | IMG00064-20091025-0829.jpg |
DQotLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KU2VudCB1c2luZyBCbGFja0JlcnJ5DQo
Message 7
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| Subject: | cranking pressure |
I remember freeing the lifters with you at San Rafel to install the
temporary cylinder from Lycon to ferry the plane to Auburn. It was sticky!
Hopefully the new owner is enjoying a trouble-free engine. I still greatly
appreciate your excellent customer care in coming down to San Rafel to get
things straightened out!
Jamey
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: cranking pressure
Funny you should ask about the Cheetah compression ratio. I haven't seen a
stock compression ratio Cheetah in years. Those values are for the HC
pistons.
This particular engine with the weird #3 cranking pressure had the #1
cylinder replaced a few months ago by Pacific Air Care in Watsonville, CA.
My thought is, the plane doesn't get much use and there is a good chance the
lifters are all gummed up. I wish I had seen the plane to replace the
cylinder. I'd know what shape the lifters were in.
When James Courtney had a cylinder fail over San Francisco bay I had a
chance to see the lifters before I put everything back together. They were
carboned up to the point they did not collapse at all. We ended up doing a
complete top end overhaul. The cylinders had about 1100 hours on them and I
didn't trust that the other valves would fail. Besides, you know I
recommend new cylinders at 1000 hours.
Whatever is weird with the #3 it's either causing the cylinder not to
scavenge the exhaust or the intake event is closing early. Either way, leak
down didn't show anything.
-----Original Message-----
From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
Sent: Tue, Oct 27, 2009 6:22 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: cranking pressure
I've have lots of other stuff to chew on but here is a thought without
giving it much thought! You obviously are aware of dynamic compression
ratio which is affected by valve timing and probably more significant that
static CR. I would GUESS that something is different on the #3 cylinder
valve timing like you mentioned. Short of a camshaft that is maybe not to
spec I would suspect that an intake lifter is bleeding down rapidly or the
dry tappet clearance is out of spec, resulting in an early intake valve
closing, less overlap, and therefore higher dynamic CR and cranking
pressure. I would wonder if the difference you are seeing would result in a
rough running engine. How smooth does it run?
Also there could be other factors like the actual combustion chamber
clearance volume and therefore static CR. On my Porsche engine a .010"
change in piston deck height changes the static CR by 0.25 points. A small
change in combustion chamber volume changes it even more. I could imagine
some manufacturing variables with the cylinder which could at least
partially account for the difference in cranking pressure. Seems like the
easiest thing to check or try would be to check the dry tappet clearance on
at least #3 and #4 and swap the intake hydraulic lifters and retest the
cranking pressure. That might tell you a lot. Having the tester that Bill
Scott uses to test the leakdown rate would be very informative possibly.
BTW, I assume the cranking pressures you mentioned for Cheetahs is with the
stock engine with 7.0:1 CR?
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 8:21 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: cranking pressure
Cliff, here's one for you to chew on.
I've been doing both leak down and cranking pressure tests now for about a
year. Tigers generally run 130-135. One Lycon Tiger was 145 across the
board. Cheetahs run about 125 to 130.
I did a cranking pressure test on a Tiger last weekend with
(1) 125 psi
(2) 123 psi
(3) 142 psi
(4) 120 psi
I redid the #3 4 times and got the same value. Something is changing the
valve timing events enough to cause this difference. I didn't go any
further into it. The leak down tests were 79/78/78/78
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07:38:00
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| Subject: | IMG00070-20091027-1034.jpg |
Flying a little low in that one?
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Denham, Bobby D.
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 1:32 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: IMG00070-20091027-1034.jpg
--------------------------
Sent using BlackBerry
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
10/27/09 07:38:00
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: cranking pressure |
Hi Jamey,
The new owner, Dave, loves the plane. Every year he comes up here and doe
s an owner assist.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: James Courtney <jamey@jamescourtney.net>
Sent: Tue, Oct 27, 2009 6:21 pm
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: cranking pressure
I remember freeing the lifters with you at San Rafel to install
the temporary cylinder from Lycon to ferry the plane to Auburn. It was
sticky! Hopefully the new owner is enjoying a trouble-free engine. I sti
ll
greatly appreciate your excellent customer care in coming down to San Rafe
l to
get things straightened out!
Jamey
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of teamgrum
man@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: cranking pressure
Funny you should ask about the Cheetah compression ratio. I
haven't seen a stock compression ratio Cheetah in years. Those values are
for the HC pistons.
This particular engine with the weird #3 cranking pressure had the
#1 cylinder replaced a few months ago by Pacific Air Care in Watsonville,
CA.
My thought is, the plane doesn't get much use and there is a good chance
the lifters are all gummed up. I wish I had seen the plane to replace the
cylinder. I'd know what shape the lifters were in.
When James Courtney had a cylinder fail over San Francisco bay I
had a chance to see the lifters before I put everything back together.
They were carboned up to the point they did not collapse at all. We
ended up doing a complete top end overhaul. The cylinders had about 1100
hours on them and I didn't trust that the other valves would fail.
Besides, you know I recommend new cylinders at 1000 hours.
Whatever is weird with the #3
it's either causing the cylinder not to scavenge the exhaust or the intake
event is closing early. Either way, leak down didn't show anything.
-----Original Message-----
From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
Sent: Tue, Oct 27, 2009 6:22 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: cranking pressure
I've have lots of other stuff to chew on but here is a thought
without giving it much thought! You obviously are aware of dynamic
compression ratio which is affected by valve timing and probably more
significant that static CR. I would GUESS that something is different on
the #3 cylinder valve timing like you mentioned. Short of a camshaft that
is maybe not to spec I would suspect that an intake lifter is bleeding dow
n
rapidly or the dry tappet clearance is out of spec, resulting in an early
intake valve closing, less overlap, and therefore higher dynamic CR and
cranking pressure. I would wonder if the difference you are seeing would
result in a rough running engine. How smooth does it run?
Also there could be other factors like the actual combustion
chamber clearance volume and therefore static CR. On my Porsche engine a
.010" change in piston deck height changes the static CR by 0.25
points. A small change in combustion chamber volume changes it even
more. I could imagine some manufacturing variables with the cylinder
which could at least partially account for the difference in cranking
pressure. Seems like the easiest thing to check or try would be to check
the dry tappet clearance on at least #3 and #4 and swap the intake hydraul
ic
lifters and retest the cranking pressure. That might tell you a
lot. Having the tester that Bill Scott uses to test the leakdown rate
would be very informative possibly.
BTW, I assume the cranking pressures you mentioned for Cheetahs is
with the stock engine with 7.0:1 CR?
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 8:21 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: cranking pressure
Cliff, here's one for you to chew on.
I've been doing both leak down and cranking pressure tests now for
about a year. Tigers generally run 130-135. One Lycon Tiger was 145
across the board. Cheetahs run about 125 to 130.
I did a cranking pressure test on a Tiger last weekend with
(1) 125 psi
(2) 123 psi
(3) 142 psi
(4) 120 psi
I redid the #3 4 times and got the same value. Something is
changing the valve timing events enough to cause this difference. I
didn't go any further into it. The leak down tests were 79/78/78/78
========================
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========================
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========================
===========
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========================
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10/27/09
07:38:00
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