---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/16/09: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:43 AM - Re: AG5B wiring question (Lawrence Massaro) 2. 05:35 AM - Re: Project X Tiger (flyv35b) 3. 06:52 AM - Re: AG5B wiring question (Gil Alexander) 4. 10:57 AM - Re: Project X Tiger (teamgrumman@AOL.COM) 5. 11:03 AM - Re: AG5B wiring question (teamgrumman@AOL.COM) 6. 11:59 AM - Re: Project X Tiger (Lawrence Massaro) 7. 01:55 PM - Re: Master/Starter solenoids....... (goldpilot@AOL.COM) 8. 02:12 PM - Re: AG5B wiring question (Gil Alexander) 9. 06:40 PM - Re: Gary (Richard Mutzman) 10. 07:00 PM - Re: Project X Tiger (Ned Thomas) 11. 07:54 PM - Re: Project X Tiger (teamgrumman@aol.com) 12. 08:13 PM - Re: Project X Tiger (James Courtney) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:43:31 AM PST US From: Lawrence Massaro Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question It makes sense that the relay should only energize based on polarity of the inputs. Simple coil, EMF, right hand rule, ete etc etc. What I don't understand is how the documentation would recommend a configuration that doesn't work??? > So, last night, while watching tv, I got to wondering if there might be a > right or wrong way to hook up the power and ground to the relay contacts > which energize the relay. You know, like when you made an electro magnet > out of a nail and wire? Does it matter which way the current flows to make > North and South . . . that sort of thing. So, today, I changed the power > and ground sources and the relay energized just fine. I have 27 volts > everywhere except on the output big terminal on the relay. Hence, no voltage > to the system buss. The output measures in the neighborhood of 3 to > 5 volts. so . . . . . tomorrow, I'll mount the relays as they were, upside > down compared the the preferred mounting diagram that came with the > relay, and see what happens. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:09 AM PST US From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger Pretty ambitious project outline you've got going here, Gary! (1) As everyone knows, the air inlet to the carb (via two air boxes) on the AG5B Tiger leaves a LOT to be desired. In side-by-side testing (on severa l occasions), one AG5B and the other an AA5B, the AG5B will have up to 1 in ch of manifold pressure LESS than an AA5B. SO, the first project is to des ign a better inlet and air-filter box to get back at least some of the lost pressure and, at the same time, make it easier to remove and replace the c owling. Wrestling the cowling off of an AG is a pain in the ass. Between the tail-pipe sticking through the cowling and the air box getting hung up on the exhaust system, it's a wonder it ever comes off. Redesigning the induction system is sorely needed. (2) Then, the Jaguar cowling onto the AG with a Power Flow. Once the inlet issue is solved the rest is a cake walk. So, Ned, your wait will be over. Haven't heard the term before. I assume that is the name for your new cowl ing=3F (3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . . . AN D . . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B into a Tiger. Not just any -B 1B either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a derated RPM to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates about 40 more usable hp at 2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to any face. You've been talking about this parallel valve engine mod for some time. Wa sn't the IO-360-B1B certified with a CS prop=3F So will the STC (with 10:1 p istons) include a CS prop=3F Peak HP would be limited to +5% over stock, or 189 hp, to avoid a lot of noise, etc. testing,right=3F Any concerns about wh at might happen with the demise of 100LL fuel down the road and what the eq uivalent octane rating will be (detonation margin with 10:1 CR pistons)=3F (4) Power Flow exhaust onto the IO360-B1B. Power goes up closer to 200 hp. (5) Then, a Jaguar cowling onto the AG with the IO360-B1B. Less drag, more HP. But you really need a CS prop to go with it! And not the expensive MT prop, either. A Hartzell Scimitar, blended airfoil compos ite blade prop! (6) Wheel pants. I already have some prototypes being built. None of this RV-10 stuff either. Those wheel pants just look wrong. My plane will be wearing a new nose wheel pant shortly to see if it's feasible to use existi ng mounting hardware. Never did like the looks of the RV-10 pants either. Get rid of the complex and costly pivot bracket concept! Most planes land on asphalt and I've se en enough cracked and broken plastic fairings to think that the pivot conce pt wasn't all that beneficial anyhow. (7) I've hired a DER who got the Texas Tail Dragger STC. 'nuf said. After all of the above you may get the speed up to around what a Mooney 201 does at similar fuel flows. That would be a hugh accomplishment! Roy LoP resti would be proud! Cliff -- We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. The Professional version does not have this message ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:29 AM PST US From: Gil Alexander Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question >I could really use a wiring diagram for this plane. So far, the >current flow logic isn't making sense. Anyone know what the cannon >plug code is? Back in the old days, I could read the number on the >wire and look it up. All of these wires are covered with expando sleeve. > >Help. Anyone. Gary, what is the part number for the 24 v master relay you used? gil A ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:57:46 AM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger From: teamgrumman@AOL.COM Hey Cliff, The first time I sat in a Tiger with the new cowling, the first thing I th ought was, "Looks a lot like looking over the hood of an early Jaguar." So, for the lack of anything better, and being cat related . . . . I was also planning on the Hartzell Scimitar prop. The other props are ju st to outdated. Every time I fly I wish I had a CS prop. As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and certainly not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to take it's place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the sevent ies when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car with close to 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers always irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss. RIGHT? The goal is, and always has been, 165 knots. I'm close. -----Original Message----- From: flyv35b Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 5:31 am Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger Pretty ambitious project outline you've got going here, Gary! (1) As everyone knows, the air inlet to the carb (via two air boxes) on th e AG5B Tiger leaves a LOT to be desired. In side-by-side testing (on seve ral occasions), one AG5B and the other an AA5B, the AG5B will have up to 1 inch of manifold pressure LESS than an AA5B. SO, the first project is to design a better inlet and air-filter box to get back at least some of the lost pressure and, at the same time, make it easier to remove and rep lace the cowling. Wrestling the cowling off of an AG is a pain in the ass . Between the tail-pipe sticking through the cowling and the air box gett ing hung up on the exhaust system, it's a wonder it ever comes off. Redesigning the induction system is sorely needed. (2) Then, the Jaguar cowling onto the AG with a Power Flow. Once the inle t issue is solved the rest is a cake walk. So, Ned, your wait will be ove r. Haven't heard the term before. I assume that is the name for your new cow ling? (3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . . . AND . . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B into a Tiger. Not just an y -B1B either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a de rated RPM to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates about 40 more usable hp at 2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to any face. You've been talking about this parallel valve engine mod for some time. Wasn't the IO-360-B1B certified with a CS prop? So will the STC (with 10 :1 pistons) include a CS prop? Peak HP would be limited to +5% over stock , or 189 hp, to avoid a lot of noise, etc. testing,right? Any concerns ab out what might happen with the demise of 100LL fuel down the road and what the equivalent octane rating will be (detonation margin with 10:1 CR pist ons)? (4) Power Flow exhaust onto the IO360-B1B. Power goes up closer to 200 hp. (5) Then, a Jaguar cowling onto the AG with the IO360-B1B. Less drag, more HP. But you really need a CS prop to go with it! And not the expensive MT prop, either. A Hartzell Scimitar, blended airfoil comp osite blade prop! (6) Wheel pants. I already have some prototypes being built. None of thi s RV-10 stuff either. Those wheel pants just look wrong. My plane will be wearing a new nose wheel pant shortly to see if it's feasible to use existing mounting hardware. Never did like the looks of the RV-10 pants either. Get rid of the comple x and costly pivot bracket concept! Most planes land on asphalt and I've seen enough cracked and broken plastic fairings to think that the pivot concept wasn't all that beneficial anyhow. (7) I've hired a DER who got the Texas Tail Dragger STC. 'nuf said. After all of the above you may get the speed up to around what a Mooney 20 1 does at similar fuel flows. That would be a hugh accomplishment! Roy LoPresti would be proud! Cliff We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighion does not have this message. ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:03:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question From: teamgrumman@AOL.COM something with a dash 903 on the end. -----Original Message----- From: Gil Alexander Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 6:50 am Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question Icould really use a wiring diagram for this plane. So far, thecurrent flo w logic isn't making sense. Anyone know what the cannonplug code is? Bac k in the old days, I could read the number on thewire and look it up. All of these wires are covered with expandosleeve. Help. Anyone. Gary, what is the part number for the 24 v master relay youused? gil A ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:59:03 AM PST US From: Lawrence Massaro Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger Please educate the ignorant. Why would it have to be de-rated? FAA regs regarding High Performance category? Just curious... >> 3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . . . >> AND . . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B into a Tiger. Not just any -B1B >> either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a derated RPM >> to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates about 40 more >> usable hp at 2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to any face. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:55:02 PM PST US From: goldpilot@AOL.COM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Master/Starter solenoids....... Hi Gary: There might be diodes across the coils in the solenoids. These protect the rest of the system from the reverse polarity surge produced by the collapsing magnetic fields. David ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:09 PM PST US From: Gil Alexander Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question Need more numbers to get a data sheet....:^) gil A At 11:35 AM 12/16/2009, you wrote: >something with a dash 903 on the end. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Gil Alexander >To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com >Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 6:50 am >Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question > >>I could really use a wiring diagram for this plane. So far, the >>current flow logic isn't making sense. Anyone know what the cannon >>plug code is? Back in the old days, I could read the number on the >>wire and look it up. All of these wires are covered with expando sleeve. >> >>Help. Anyone. > > >Gary, what is the part number for the 24 v master relay you used? gil A > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:54 PM PST US From: Richard Mutzman Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Gary Gary=2C I think you need a break over the next couple of weeks. Not only are you a sking yourself questions=2C you are now answering yourself! :) Richard Mutzman N399RM Dayton=2C OH (Home of AYA 2010) _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft=92s powerful SPAM protection. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:13 PM PST US From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger Will Matthew Broderick's chimpanzees be flying the Project X first flight? > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:16 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger From: teamgrumman@aol.com The paperwork involved in increasing horsepower isn't worth the aggravatio n. -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence Massaro Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 11:16 am Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger Please educate the ignorant. Why would it have to be de-rated? FAA regs regarding HighPerformance cate gory? Just curious... >> 3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . . . >> AND . . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B into a Tiger. Not just any -B1B >> either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a derated RPM >> to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates about 40 more >> usable hp at 2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to any face. ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:27 PM PST US From: "James Courtney" Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger Geeze Cliff, he's planning on you going firstJ Jamey From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of teamgrumman@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 10:34 AM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger Hey Cliff, The first time I sat in a Tiger with the new cowling, the first thing I thought was, "Looks a lot like looking over the hood of an early Jaguar." So, for the lack of anything better, and being cat related . . . . I was also planning on the Hartzell Scimitar prop. The other props are just to outdated. Every time I fly I wish I had a CS prop. As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and certainly not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to take it's place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the seventies when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car with close to 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers always irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss. RIGHT? The goal is, and always has been, 165 knots. I'm close. -----Original Message----- From: flyv35b Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 5:31 am Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger Pretty ambitious project outline you've got going here, Gary! (1) As everyone knows, the air inlet to the carb (via two air boxes) on the AG5B Tiger leaves a LOT to be desired. In side-by-side testing (on several occasions), one AG5B and the other an AA5B, the AG5B will have up to 1 inch of manifold pressure LESS than an AA5B. SO, the first project is to design a better inlet and air-filter box to get back at least some of the lost pressure and, at the same time, make it easier to remove and replace the cowling. Wrestling the cowling off of an AG is a pain in the ass. Between the tail-pipe sticking through the cowling and the air box getting hung up on the exhaust system, it's a wonder it ever comes off. Redesigning the induction system is sorely needed. (2) Then, the Jaguar cowling onto the AG with a Power Flow. Once the inlet issue is solved the rest is a cake walk. So, Ned, your wait will be over. Haven't heard the term before. I assume that is the name for your new cowling? (3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . . . AND . . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B into a Tiger. Not just any -B1B either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a derated RPM to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates about 40 more usable hp at 2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to any face. You've been talking about this parallel valve engine mod for some time. Wasn't the IO-360-B1B certified with a CS prop? So will the STC (with 10:1 pistons) include a CS prop? Peak HP would be limited to +5% over stock, or 189 hp, to avoid a lot of noise, etc. testing,right? Any concerns about what might happen with the demise of 100LL fuel down the road and what the equivalent octane rating will be (detonation margin with 10:1 CR pistons)? (4) Power Flow exhaust onto the IO360-B1B. Power goes up closer to 200 hp. (5) Then, a Jaguar cowling onto the AG with the IO360-B1B. Less drag, more HP. But you really need a CS prop to go with it! And not the expensive MT prop, either. A Hartzell Scimitar, blended airfoil composite blade prop! (6) Wheel pants. I already have some prototypes being built. None of this RV-10 stuff either. Those wheel pants just look wrong. My plane will be wearing a new nose wheel pant shortly to see if it's feasible to use existing mounting hardware. Never did like the looks of the RV-10 pants either. Get rid of the complex and costly pivot bracket concept! Most planes land on asphalt and I've seen enough cracked and broken plastic fairings to think that the pivot concept wasn't all that beneficial anyhow. (7) I've hired a DER who got the Texas Tail Dragger STC. 'nuf said. After all of the above you may get the speed up to around what a Mooney 201 does at similar fuel flows. That would be a hugh accomplishment! Roy LoPresti would be proud! Cliff _____ .. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. 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