Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:10 AM - Re: Project X Tiger (Cliff Hanson)
2. 06:42 AM - Re: Project X Tiger (Cliff Hanson)
3. 06:54 AM - Re: Project X Tiger (Cliff Hanson)
4. 07:11 AM - Re: Project X Tiger (Ned Thomas)
5. 07:40 AM - Re: Project X Tiger (James Courtney)
6. 08:02 AM - Re: Project X Tiger (Gil Alexander)
7. 08:23 AM - TEL (Linn Walters)
8. 08:24 AM - Re: Project X Tiger (Ned Thomas)
9. 09:03 AM - Re: AG5B wiring question (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
10. 09:11 AM - Re: Re: Gary (teamgrumman@aol.com)
11. 09:31 AM - Re: Project X Tiger (teamgrumman@aol.com)
12. 09:32 AM - Re: Project X Tiger (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
13. 10:23 AM - Re: AG5B wiring question (Gil Alexander)
14. 12:50 PM - Re: AG5B wiring question (teamgrumman@aol.com)
15. 06:37 PM - Re: Project X Tiger (flyv35b)
16. 06:49 PM - Re: Project X Tiger (flyv35b)
17. 07:37 PM - Re: Project X Tiger (Gil Alexander)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
Gary, I think Jaguar is a very good name for the cowling.
But you didn't respond to my question of the CS prop with the IO-360-B1B
(is that the right model #?) engine. Was that engine certified with a CS
Hartzell prop? If you don't use that combination won't the FAA give you
real grief (read cost you lots more $$$) about getting something else
STC'd? There are LOTS of good reasons for going with a CS prop and in the
overall scheem of things what is another $6K additional for a prop
considering the cost of the overall modification, especially when you
consider the benefits? With all the changes and improvements you are
talking about and the resulting speed gain you are beyond the region where
a fixed prop works very well. It is to big of a compromise and takeoff
and climb performace suffers if the prop is pitched for cruise conditions.
Go for the CS prop - don't screw around.
Cliff
> Hey Cliff,
>
>
> The first time I sat in a Tiger with the new cowling, the first thing I
> thought was, "Looks a lot like looking over the hood of an early Jaguar."
> So, for the lack of anything better, and being cat related . . . .
>
>
> I was also planning on the Hartzell Scimitar prop. The other props are
> just to outdated. Every time I fly I wish I had a CS prop.
>
>
> As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and certainly
> not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to take it's
> place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the
> seventies when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car with
> close to 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers
> always irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss. RIGHT?
>
>
> The goal is, and always has been, 165 knots. I'm close.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 5:31 am
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
>
>
> Pretty ambitious project outline you've got going here, Gary!
>
> (1) As everyone knows, the air inlet to the carb (via two air boxes) on
> the AG5B Tiger leaves a LOT to be desired. In side-by-side testing (on
> several occasions), one AG5B and the other an AA5B, the AG5B will have up
> to 1 inch of manifold pressure LESS than an AA5B. SO, the first project
> is to design a better inlet and air-filter box to get back at least some
> of the lost pressure and, at the same time, make it easier to remove and
> replace the cowling. Wrestling the cowling off of an AG is a pain in the
> ass. Between the tail-pipe sticking through the cowling and the air box
> getting hung up on the exhaust system, it's a wonder it ever comes off.
>
> Redesigning the induction system is sorely needed.
>
>
> (2) Then, the Jaguar cowling onto the AG with a Power Flow. Once the
> inlet issue is solved the rest is a cake walk. So, Ned, your wait will be
> over.
>
>
> Haven't heard the term before. I assume that is the name for your new
> cowling?
>
> (3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . . .
> AND . . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B into a Tiger. Not just any
> -B1B either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a
> derated RPM to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates about 40
> more usable hp at 2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to any face.
>
> You've been talking about this parallel valve engine mod for some time.
> Wasn't the IO-360-B1B certified with a CS prop? So will the STC (with
> 10:1 pistons) include a CS prop? Peak HP would be limited to +5% over
> stock, or 189 hp, to avoid a lot of noise, etc. testing,right? Any
> concerns about what might happen with the demise of 100LL fuel down the
> road and what the equivalent octane rating will be (detonation margin with
> 10:1 CR pistons)?
>
>
> (4) Power Flow exhaust onto the IO360-B1B.
>
> Power goes up closer to 200 hp.
>
>
> (5) Then, a Jaguar cowling onto the AG with the IO360-B1B.
>
> Less drag, more HP. But you really need a CS prop to go with it! And not
> the expensive MT prop, either. A Hartzell Scimitar, blended airfoil
> composite blade prop!
>
>
> (6) Wheel pants. I already have some prototypes being built. None of
> this RV-10 stuff either. Those wheel pants just look wrong. My plane
> will be wearing a new nose wheel pant shortly to see if it's feasible to
> use existing mounting hardware.
>
> Never did like the looks of the RV-10 pants either. Get rid of the
> complex and costly pivot bracket concept! Most planes land on asphalt and
> I've seen enough cracked and broken plastic fairings to think that the
> pivot concept wasn't all that beneficial anyhow.
>
>
> (7) I've hired a DER who got the Texas Tail Dragger STC. 'nuf said.
>
> After all of the above you may get the speed up to around what a Mooney
> 201 does at similar fuel flows. That would be a hugh accomplishment! Roy
> LoPresti would be proud!
>
> Cliff
>
>
> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
> SPAMfighion does not have this message.
>
>
> ===================================
> ===================================
> ===================================
> ===================================
>
>
Message 2
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I kind of noted that, but then I am older (a little) thn he is. <G> He
was just making the point that 100LL will be around longer than we will be
flying, and I agree.
Cliff
> Geeze Cliff, he's planning on you going firstJ
>
>
> Jamey
>
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> teamgrumman@aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 10:34 AM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
>
>
> Hey Cliff,
>
>
> The first time I sat in a Tiger with the new cowling, the first thing I
> thought was, "Looks a lot like looking over the hood of an early Jaguar."
> So, for the lack of anything better, and being cat related . . . .
>
>
> I was also planning on the Hartzell Scimitar prop. The other props are
> just
> to outdated. Every time I fly I wish I had a CS prop.
>
>
> As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and certainly
> not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to take it's
> place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the
> seventies
> when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car with close to
> 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers always
> irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss. RIGHT?
>
>
> The goal is, and always has been, 165 knots. I'm close.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 5:31 am
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
>
> Pretty ambitious project outline you've got going here, Gary!
>
>
> (1) As everyone knows, the air inlet to the carb (via two air boxes) on
> the
> AG5B Tiger leaves a LOT to be desired. In side-by-side testing (on
> several
> occasions), one AG5B and the other an AA5B, the AG5B will have up to 1
> inch
> of manifold pressure LESS than an AA5B. SO, the first project is to
> design
> a better inlet and air-filter box to get back at least some of the lost
> pressure and, at the same time, make it easier to remove and replace the
> cowling. Wrestling the cowling off of an AG is a pain in the ass.
> Between
> the tail-pipe sticking through the cowling and the air box getting hung up
> on the exhaust system, it's a wonder it ever comes off.
>
>
> Redesigning the induction system is sorely needed.
>
>
> (2) Then, the Jaguar cowling onto the AG with a Power Flow. Once the
> inlet
> issue is solved the rest is a cake walk. So, Ned, your wait will be over.
>
>
> Haven't heard the term before. I assume that is the name for your new
> cowling?
>
>
> (3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . . .
> AND
> . . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B into a Tiger. Not just any
> -B1B
> either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a derated
> RPM
> to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates about 40 more usable hp
> at
> 2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to any face.
>
>
> You've been talking about this parallel valve engine mod for some time.
> Wasn't the IO-360-B1B certified with a CS prop? So will the STC (with
> 10:1
> pistons) include a CS prop? Peak HP would be limited to +5% over stock,
> or
> 189 hp, to avoid a lot of noise, etc. testing,right? Any concerns about
> what might happen with the demise of 100LL fuel down the road and what the
> equivalent octane rating will be (detonation margin with 10:1 CR pistons)?
>
>
> (4) Power Flow exhaust onto the IO360-B1B.
>
>
> Power goes up closer to 200 hp.
>
>
> (5) Then, a Jaguar cowling onto the AG with the IO360-B1B.
>
>
> Less drag, more HP. But you really need a CS prop to go with it! And not
> the expensive MT prop, either. A Hartzell Scimitar, blended airfoil
> composite blade prop!
>
>
> (6) Wheel pants. I already have some prototypes being built. None of
> this
> RV-10 stuff either. Those wheel pants just look wrong. My plane will be
> wearing a new nose wheel pant shortly to see if it's feasible to use
> existing mounting hardware.
>
>
> Never did like the looks of the RV-10 pants either. Get rid of the
> complex
> and costly pivot bracket concept! Most planes land on asphalt and I've
> seen
> enough cracked and broken plastic fairings to think that the pivot concept
> wasn't all that beneficial anyhow.
>
>
> (7) I've hired a DER who got the Texas Tail Dragger STC. 'nuf said.
>
>
> After all of the above you may get the speed up to around what a Mooney
> 201
> does at similar fuel flows. That would be a hugh accomplishment! Roy
> LoPresti would be proud!
>
>
> Cliff
>
>
> _____
>
> .
> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
> SPAMfighion does not have this message.
>
>
> ===================================
> ric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> w.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> thelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
> ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> ===================================
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
>
>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> 08:02:00
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
5% increase in power is allowed without changing the rated HP of the
engine, which would entail a LOT more testing and specifically expensive
noise testing (thanks to the EPA).
Cliff
> Please educate the ignorant.
> Why would it have to be de-rated? FAA regs regarding High
> Performance category?
> Just curious...
>
>
> >> 3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . .
> .
> >> AND . . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B into a
> Tiger. Not just any -B1B
> >> either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a
> derated RPM
> >> to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates about 40 more
> >> usable hp at 2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to any face.
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
Cliff,
That had to be a typo. I think Gary meant B1E which is a constant
speed aft facing carb model
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
Message 5
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I know, just thought it was funny. I also hope they stick with 100LL until
they have a true drop-in replacement but I'm not as confident. It really is
small potatoes as far as the big picture is concerned. That said, if you're
a government agency, it's also a lot easier to cripple the relatively small
community of GA and give yourself a gold star/check+/smiley face than to fix
our electricity and automotive infrastructure which might affect the
majority of the electorate. Sigh.
I hope you're both right and around for a long time for reasons independent
of avGas.
Best,
Jamey
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cliff
Hanson
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 6:42 AM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
<flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
I kind of noted that, but then I am older (a little) thn he is. <G> He
was just making the point that 100LL will be around longer than we will be
flying, and I agree.
Cliff
> Geeze Cliff, he's planning on you going firstJ
>
>
> Jamey
>
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> teamgrumman@aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 10:34 AM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
>
>
> Hey Cliff,
>
>
> The first time I sat in a Tiger with the new cowling, the first thing I
> thought was, "Looks a lot like looking over the hood of an early Jaguar."
> So, for the lack of anything better, and being cat related . . . .
>
>
> I was also planning on the Hartzell Scimitar prop. The other props are
> just
> to outdated. Every time I fly I wish I had a CS prop.
>
>
> As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and certainly
> not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to take it's
> place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the
> seventies
> when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car with close to
> 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers always
> irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss. RIGHT?
>
>
> The goal is, and always has been, 165 knots. I'm close.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 5:31 am
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
>
> Pretty ambitious project outline you've got going here, Gary!
>
>
> (1) As everyone knows, the air inlet to the carb (via two air boxes) on
> the
> AG5B Tiger leaves a LOT to be desired. In side-by-side testing (on
> several
> occasions), one AG5B and the other an AA5B, the AG5B will have up to 1
> inch
> of manifold pressure LESS than an AA5B. SO, the first project is to
> design
> a better inlet and air-filter box to get back at least some of the lost
> pressure and, at the same time, make it easier to remove and replace the
> cowling. Wrestling the cowling off of an AG is a pain in the ass.
> Between
> the tail-pipe sticking through the cowling and the air box getting hung up
> on the exhaust system, it's a wonder it ever comes off.
>
>
> Redesigning the induction system is sorely needed.
>
>
> (2) Then, the Jaguar cowling onto the AG with a Power Flow. Once the
> inlet
> issue is solved the rest is a cake walk. So, Ned, your wait will be over.
>
>
> Haven't heard the term before. I assume that is the name for your new
> cowling?
>
>
> (3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . . .
> AND
> . . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B into a Tiger. Not just any
> -B1B
> either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a derated
> RPM
> to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates about 40 more usable hp
> at
> 2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to any face.
>
>
> You've been talking about this parallel valve engine mod for some time.
> Wasn't the IO-360-B1B certified with a CS prop? So will the STC (with
> 10:1
> pistons) include a CS prop? Peak HP would be limited to +5% over stock,
> or
> 189 hp, to avoid a lot of noise, etc. testing,right? Any concerns about
> what might happen with the demise of 100LL fuel down the road and what the
> equivalent octane rating will be (detonation margin with 10:1 CR pistons)?
>
>
> (4) Power Flow exhaust onto the IO360-B1B.
>
>
> Power goes up closer to 200 hp.
>
>
> (5) Then, a Jaguar cowling onto the AG with the IO360-B1B.
>
>
> Less drag, more HP. But you really need a CS prop to go with it! And not
> the expensive MT prop, either. A Hartzell Scimitar, blended airfoil
> composite blade prop!
>
>
> (6) Wheel pants. I already have some prototypes being built. None of
> this
> RV-10 stuff either. Those wheel pants just look wrong. My plane will be
> wearing a new nose wheel pant shortly to see if it's feasible to use
> existing mounting hardware.
>
>
> Never did like the looks of the RV-10 pants either. Get rid of the
> complex
> and costly pivot bracket concept! Most planes land on asphalt and I've
> seen
> enough cracked and broken plastic fairings to think that the pivot concept
> wasn't all that beneficial anyhow.
>
>
> (7) I've hired a DER who got the Texas Tail Dragger STC. 'nuf said.
>
>
> After all of the above you may get the speed up to around what a Mooney
> 201
> does at similar fuel flows. That would be a hugh accomplishment! Roy
> LoPresti would be proud!
>
>
> Cliff
>
>
> _____
>
> .
> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
> SPAMfighion does not have this message.
>
>
> ===================================
> ric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> w.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> thelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
> ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> ===================================
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
>
>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> 08:02:00
>
>
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
19:52:00
Message 6
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....and I'd like to report that the only source of TEL (the lead in
100LL) in Ellsemere Port on the River Mersey was still in action
about 3 weeks ago. As a kid, I could see the always burning waste
gases flame from the refinery from across the river - it's still burning...
I realized my wife had never been on the "Ferry across the Mersey" -
which now a tourist boat trip around, and the southern end of the
route was by the TEL factory, so I actually got a closer look this
time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loyRYFUYg9g We were even on
the same boat as the 1965 clip - the Woodvale, now renamed Snowdrop.
Lead has been extracted from this Cheshire area since Roman times,
and the area along this portion of the River Mersey and Manchester
ship canal to Widnes/Runcorn is one of the centers of the UK chemical
industry - think ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) The chemical
industry is the life blood of this area and is fully unionized.
gil A
At 07:41 AM 12/17/2009, you wrote:
><flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
>
>I kind of noted that, but then I am older (a little) thn he is. <G> He
>was just making the point that 100LL will be around longer than we will be
>flying, and I agree.
>
>Cliff
>
>...
> > As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and certainly
> > not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to take it's
> > place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the
> > seventies
> > when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car with close to
> > 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers always
> > irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss. RIGHT?
Message 7
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Gil Alexander wrote:
> <gilalex@earthlink.net>
>
> ....and I'd like to report that the only source of TEL (the lead in
> 100LL) in Ellsemere Port on the River Mersey was still in action about
> 3 weeks ago. As a kid, I could see the always burning waste gases
> flame from the refinery from across the river - it's still burning...
>
> I realized my wife had never been on the "Ferry across the Mersey" -
> which now a tourist boat trip around, and the southern end of the
> route was by the TEL factory, so I actually got a closer look this
> time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loyRYFUYg9g We were even on the
> same boat as the 1965 clip - the Woodvale, now renamed Snowdrop.
Thanks for the clip!!! When songs had words, melody, and were
enjoyable! One of my favorites. If the Mersey had been any more narrow
(it seems) they wouldn't have been able to finish the song before the
ferry docked!!! :-P
>
> Lead has been extracted from this Cheshire area since Roman times, and
> the area along this portion of the River Mersey and Manchester ship
> canal to Widnes/Runcorn is one of the centers of the UK chemical
> industry - think ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) The chemical
> industry is the life blood of this area and is fully unionized.
When I was working as a programmer, I did some work on a 105 MM Howitzer
powder bag loader in Indiana at the Indiana Army Ammunition plant .....
and the contract was with ICI. Never knew until now what ICI meant!!! =-O
Linn
>
>
> gil A
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
I think our era of time will be looked back upon as quite an illogical
one.
This "post-modern" philosophy that we experience today, where
epistomology is characterized by the masses believing that truth is
known as that which is ascerted by those in power rather than
determined through evidence, will hopefully end with a quick return to
true science. Perhaps we will see thus happen and then again have no
worries about minute quantities TEL and other political nonsense such
as man caused global warming. If not we may soon see a return to horse
driven vehicles and just dream of the days of flying......
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 17, 2009, at 10:01 AM, Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> >
>
> ....and I'd like to report that the only source of TEL (the lead in
> 100LL) in Ellsemere Port on the River Mersey was still in action
> about 3 weeks ago. As a kid, I could see the always burning waste
> gases flame from the refinery from across the river - it's still
> burning...
>
> I realized my wife had never been on the "Ferry across the Mersey" -
> which now a tourist boat trip around, and the southern end of the
> route was by the TEL factory, so I actually got a closer look this
> time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loyRYFUYg9g We were even on
> the same boat as the 1965 clip - the Woodvale, now renamed Snowdrop.
>
> Lead has been extracted from this Cheshire area since Roman times,
> and the area along this portion of the River Mersey and Manchester
> ship canal to Widnes/Runcorn is one of the centers of the UK
> chemical industry - think ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) The
> chemical industry is the life blood of this area and is fully
> unionized.
>
> gil A
>
> At 07:41 AM 12/17/2009, you wrote:
>> >
>>
>> I kind of noted that, but then I am older (a little) thn he is.
>> <G> He
>> was just making the point that 100LL will be around longer than we
>> will be
>> flying, and I agree.
>>
>> Cliff
>>
>> ...
>> > As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and
>> certainly
>> > not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to
>> take it's
>> > place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the
>> > seventies
>> > when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car with
>> close to
>> > 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers
>> always
>> > irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss. RIGHT?
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: AG5B wiring question |
it's a white-rogers 70-903
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:09 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
Need more numbers to get a data sheet....:^) gil A
At 11:35 AM 12/16/2009, you wrote:
something with a dash 903 on the end.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 6:50 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
I could really use a wiringdiagram for this plane. So far, the current fl
ow logic isn't makingsense. Anyone know what the cannon plug code is? Ba
ck in theold days, I could read the number on the wire and look it up. Al
lof these wires are covered with expando sleeve.
Help. Anyone.
Gary, what is the part number for the 24 v master relay youused? gil A
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Message 10
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I'm the only one who's answers I listen to.
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Mutzman <rcmutz@msn.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 6:37 pm
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Gary
Gary,
I think you need a break over the next couple of weeks. Not only are you
asking yourself questions, you are now answering yourself! :)
Richard Mutzman
N399RM
Dayton, OH (Home of AYA 2010)
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft=99s powerful SPAM protection.
Sign up now.
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
The IO360-B1B was used on a Piper Arrow. It was a CS engine. The hard pa
rt will be getting Hartzell to give up the data for the FAA approval.
-----Original Message-----
From: Cliff Hanson <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
Sent: Thu, Dec 17, 2009 6:09 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
.com>
Gary, I think Jaguar is a very good name for the cowling.
But you didn't respond to my question of the CS prop with the IO-360-B1B
(is that the right model #?) engine. Was that engine certified with a CS
Hartzell prop? If you don't use that combination won't the FAA give you
real grief (read cost you lots more $$$) about getting something else
STC'd? There are LOTS of good reasons for going with a CS prop and in the
overall scheem of things what is another $6K additional for a prop
considering the cost of the overall modification, especially when you
consider the benefits? With all the changes and improvements you are
talking about and the resulting speed gain you are beyond the region where
a fixed prop works very well. It is to big of a compromise and takeoff
and climb performace suffers if the prop is pitched for cruise conditions.
Go for the CS prop - don't screw around.
Cliff
> Hey Cliff,
>
>
> The first time I sat in a Tiger with the new cowling, the first thing I
> thought was, "Looks a lot like looking over the hood of an early Jaguar.
"
> So, for the lack of anything better, and being cat related . . . .
>
>
> I was also planning on the Hartzell Scimitar prop. The other props are
> just to outdated. Every time I fly I wish I had a CS prop.
>
>
> As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and certainl
y
> not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to take it's
> place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the
> seventies when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car wi
th
> close to 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers
> always irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss. RIGH
T?
>
>
> The goal is, and always has been, 165 knots. I'm close.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 5:31 am
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
>
>
> Pretty ambitious project outline you've got going here, Gary!
>
> (1) As everyone knows, the air inlet to the carb (via two air boxes) on
> the AG5B Tiger leaves a LOT to be desired. In side-by-side testing (on
> several occasions), one AG5B and the other an AA5B, the AG5B will have
up
> to 1 inch of manifold pressure LESS than an AA5B. SO, the first project
> is to design a better inlet and air-filter box to get back at least some
> of the lost pressure and, at the same time, make it easier to remove and
> replace the cowling. Wrestling the cowling off of an AG is a pain in th
e
> ass. Between the tail-pipe sticking through the cowling and the air box
> getting hung up on the exhaust system, it's a wonder it ever comes off.
>
> Redesigning the induction system is sorely needed.
>
>
> (2) Then, the Jaguar cowling onto the AG with a Power Flow. Once the
> inlet issue is solved the rest is a cake walk. So, Ned, your wait will
be
> over.
>
>
> Haven't heard the term before. I assume that is the name for your new
> cowling?
>
> (3) Next, put the stock cowling and exhaust back onto Project X . . . .
> AND . . . drum roll . . . . put an IO360-B1B into a Tiger. Not just
any
> -B1B either. Ken has offered to help get 10:1 pistons certified at a
> derated RPM to keep the peak hp down to 189 hp. He estimates about 40
> more usable hp at 2200 rpm. Climb should bring a smile to any face.
>
> You've been talking about this parallel valve engine mod for some time.
> Wasn't the IO-360-B1B certified with a CS prop? So will the STC (with
> 10:1 pistons) include a CS prop? Peak HP would be limited to +5% over
> stock, or 189 hp, to avoid a lot of noise, etc. testing,right? Any
> concerns about what might happen with the demise of 100LL fuel down the
> road and what the equivalent octane rating will be (detonation margin wi
th
> 10:1 CR pistons)?
>
>
> (4) Power Flow exhaust onto the IO360-B1B.
>
> Power goes up closer to 200 hp.
>
>
> (5) Then, a Jaguar cowling onto the AG with the IO360-B1B.
>
> Less drag, more HP. But you really need a CS prop to go with it! And
not
> the expensive MT prop, either. A Hartzell Scimitar, blended airfoil
> composite blade prop!
>
>
> (6) Wheel pants. I already have some prototypes being built. None of
> this RV-10 stuff either. Those wheel pants just look wrong. My plane
> will be wearing a new nose wheel pant shortly to see if it's feasible to
> use existing mounting hardware.
>
> Never did like the looks of the RV-10 pants either. Get rid of the
> complex and costly pivot bracket concept! Most planes land on asphalt
and
> I've seen enough cracked and broken plastic fairings to think that the
> pivot concept wasn't all that beneficial anyhow.
>
>
> (7) I've hired a DER who got the Texas Tail Dragger STC. 'nuf said.
>
> After all of the above you may get the speed up to around what a Mooney
> 201 does at similar fuel flows. That would be a hugh accomplishment!
Roy
> LoPresti would be proud!
>
> Cliff
>
>
> We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
> SPAMfighion does not have this message.
>
>
> ========================
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
Oh, yea, did I say B1B? OOOps. B1E.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
Sent: Thu, Dec 17, 2009 7:09 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
Cliff,
That had to be a typo. I think Gary meant B1E which is a constant speed af
t facing carb model
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: AG5B wiring question |
Gary... the relay is fully isolated, and has no installed diodes.
It is not polarized, so hooking up plus and minus 24v on the two
smaller terminals can be done in either direction.
The coil resistance is 60 ohms, which you could use as a check on your wiring.
Unlike some of the other relays, there is no connection from the
relay coil to the large relay contacts.
As far as I can tell from the data sheet, the case (ground when
installed) is isolated from all of the internal workings.
http://www.stancor.com/wrdstc/pdfs/pg87_90.pdf
gil A
At 10:02 AM 12/17/2009, you wrote:
>it's a white-rogers 70-903
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:09 pm
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
>
>Need more numbers to get a data sheet....:^) gil A
>
>At 11:35 AM 12/16/2009, you wrote:
>>something with a dash 903 on the end.
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Gil Alexander <<mailto:gilalex@earthlink.net>gilalex@earthlink.net>
>>To: <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>>Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 6:50 am
>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
>>
>>>I could really use a wiring diagram for this plane. So far, the
>>>current flow logic isn't making sense. Anyone know what the
>>>cannon plug code is? Back in the old days, I could read the
>>>number on the wire and look it up. All of these wires are covered
>>>with expando sleeve.
>>>
>>>Help. Anyone.
>>
>>
>>Gary, what is the part number for the 24 v master relay you used? gil A
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: AG5B wiring question |
Thanks Gil,
I think the problem on the AG5B has more to do with grounds. I've been ab
le to jump across from a battery and get the relay to energize, it just do
esn't pass the voltage to the other side. I'm going to try another one.
I was able to get 27 volts to the buss line, but, nothing came on inside
the plane. I think the myriad of ground wires on the outside need to be
connected to get the power to come on inside. AGs are strange birds. Su
cks to have a special ground to turn power on. I'm so used to putting pow
er onto the buss and having everything come on. Not a big deal. I'll sor
t this out too.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
Sent: Thu, Dec 17, 2009 10:19 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
Gary... the relay is fully isolated, and has no installeddiodes.
It is not polarized, so hooking up plus and minus 24v on the two smallerte
rminals can be done in either direction.
The coil resistance is 60 ohms, which you could use as a check on yourwiri
ng.
Unlike some of the other relays, there is no connection from the relaycoil
to the large relay contacts.
As far as I can tell from the data sheet, the case (ground wheninstalled)
is isolated from all of the internal workings.
http://www.stancor.com/wrdstc/pdfs/pg87_90.pdf
gil A
At 10:02 AM 12/17/2009, you wrote:
it's awhite-rogers 70-903
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:09 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
Need more numbers to get a data sheet....:^) gil A
At 11:35 AM 12/16/2009, you wrote:
something with a dash 903 on theend.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander<gilalex@earthlink.net>
To:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 6:50 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B wiring question
I could really use a wiringdiagram for this plane. So far, the current fl
ow logic isn't makingsense. Anyone know what the cannon plug code is? Ba
ck in theold days, I could read the number on the wire and look it up. Al
lof these wires are covered with expando sleeve.
Help. Anyone.
Gary, what is the part number for the 24 v master relay youused? gil A
========================
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
And what's going to happen to their economy when we quit using leaded fuel?
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gil Alexander" <gilalex@earthlink.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 8:01 AM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
> <gilalex@earthlink.net>
>
> ....and I'd like to report that the only source of TEL (the lead in 100LL)
> in Ellsemere Port on the River Mersey was still in action about 3 weeks
> ago. As a kid, I could see the always burning waste gases flame from the
> refinery from across the river - it's still burning...
>
> I realized my wife had never been on the "Ferry across the Mersey" - which
> now a tourist boat trip around, and the southern end of the route was by
> the TEL factory, so I actually got a closer look this time.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loyRYFUYg9g We were even on the same boat
> as the 1965 clip - the Woodvale, now renamed Snowdrop.
>
> Lead has been extracted from this Cheshire area since Roman times, and the
> area along this portion of the River Mersey and Manchester ship canal to
> Widnes/Runcorn is one of the centers of the UK chemical industry - think
> ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) The chemical industry is the life
> blood of this area and is fully unionized.
>
> gil A
>
> At 07:41 AM 12/17/2009, you wrote:
>><flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
>>
>>I kind of noted that, but then I am older (a little) thn he is. <G> He
>>was just making the point that 100LL will be around longer than we will be
>>flying, and I agree.
>>
>>Cliff
>>
>>...
>> > As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time and
>> > certainly
>> > not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to take
>> > it's
>> > place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the
>> > seventies
>> > when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car with close
>> > to
>> > 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers always
>> > irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss. RIGHT?
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
The 1967, 68, 69 Arrow had the 180 hp B1E engine and in 1969 they added
the 200 hp C1C engine (angle valve) and continued with the B1E for
another couple of years.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
Oh, yea, did I say B1B? OOOps. B1E.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thu, Dec 17, 2009 7:09 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
Cliff,
That had to be a typo. I think Gary meant B1E which is a constant
speed aft facing carb model
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
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Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Project X Tiger |
The TEL portion is an insignificant percentage of the chemical
industry in that area.
The Romans started it off with salt mining - hence all of the
Cheshire towns ending in "---wich"
The unions will keep the general chemical industry going as long as
there is a market.... even if the Conservative party gains power next
year....:^)
The company web site statement on lead in aviation fuel is here....
http://www.innospecinc.com/octane-additives.html
gil A
At 07:37 PM 12/17/2009, flyv35b wrote:
>
>And what's going to happen to their economy when we quit using leaded fuel?
>
>Cliff
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Alexander" <gilalex@earthlink.net>
>To: <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 8:01 AM
>Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Project X Tiger
>
>
>>
>>....and I'd like to report that the only source of TEL (the lead in
>>100LL) in Ellsemere Port on the River Mersey was still in action
>>about 3 weeks ago. As a kid, I could see the always burning waste
>>gases flame from the refinery from across the river - it's still burning...
>>
>>I realized my wife had never been on the "Ferry across the Mersey"
>>- which now a tourist boat trip around, and the southern end of the
>>route was by the TEL factory, so I actually got a closer look this
>>time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loyRYFUYg9g We were even on
>>the same boat as the 1965 clip - the Woodvale, now renamed Snowdrop.
>>
>>Lead has been extracted from this Cheshire area since Roman times,
>>and the area along this portion of the River Mersey and Manchester
>>ship canal to Widnes/Runcorn is one of the centers of the UK
>>chemical industry - think ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) The
>>chemical industry is the life blood of this area and is fully unionized.
>>
>>gil A
>>
>>At 07:41 AM 12/17/2009, you wrote:
>>><flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
>>>
>>>I kind of noted that, but then I am older (a little) thn he is. <G> He
>>>was just making the point that 100LL will be around longer than we will be
>>>flying, and I agree.
>>>
>>>Cliff
>>>
>>>...
>>> > As for the demise of 100LL, it won't happen in my life time
>>> and > certainly
>>> > not yours. If and when it does, there'll be something else to
>>> take > it's
>>> > place. They said the same thing about high horsepower cars in the
>>> > seventies
>>> > when low lead/no-lead came along. Today, you can buy a car
>>> with close > to
>>> > 11:1 compression ratio and run it on 92 octane. Fear mongers always
>>> > irritate me. Can't blame them though. Ignorance is bliss. RIGHT?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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