Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:40 AM - Re: Project plane (flyv35b)
2. 11:19 AM - Re: Good Story (was: Project plane) (teamgrumman@aol.com)
3. 01:34 PM - Re: Good Story another mag story (923te)
4. 05:07 PM - Re: Good Story another mag story (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
5. 05:08 PM - Re: Good Story another mag story (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Project plane |
Not at all! I think that there is just a lot of VERY sloppy work out
there and apparently many mechanics and owners have very low standards
and are happy with mediocre work or even worse! I suppose some owners
are just plain ignorant about what kind of work is being done but there
are others who pinch every penny and put a lot of pressure on their
mechanic to get by as cheaply as possible. I tell my customers when I
first start maintaining their planes that I won't cut corners and if
they don't want me to maintain their plane like I maintain my own then
they can take it elsewhere. None of them seem to have a problem with
that. I'm sure that's probably the case with you but then there are
those first time annuals on planes that have had years of deferred
maintenance!
As an example of the opposite, I'm doing an annual on a Tiger now that
had an ignition miss on one magneto. After pulling all the spark plugs,
cleaning and testing them I couldn't find any problem. It still ran
rough (3 cylinders firing). The mags have only 600 hrs since new and
about 70 hrs since a 500 hrs inspection. Nothing obviously wrong with
the mags but the ignition harness appears to have a lead that is
resulting in misfiring of one plug. The owner said let's just put two
new mags, new harness and plugs on. He always wants to go overboard the
other way when it comes to maintenance. He doesn't want to take any
chances and doesn't want to be stranded up in Canada out in the
boondocks with a mechanical problem. I like that kind of customer!
Maintaining his plane is a joy.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project plane
What can I say? Maybe I'm too picky.
-----Original Message-----
From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wed, Dec 30, 2009 11:51 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project plane
Maybe the installer was pissed off because the owner wanted the
carpets under the brake master cylinders.
Why run the carpet under the MC? So the carpet can soak up all the
brake fluid that is spilled! I can't believe the shit you run into,
Gary. Must have something to do with California Grumman maintenance!
(Not you of course)
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:08 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Project plane
I pulled the carpets out of the project plane. Here's a good one.
The carpets were cut around the brake master cylinders and installed all
the way to the front. The carpets had a 1/2 inch of sound deadening
material sewn to the backing. The carpets weighed 10 lbs.
I also removed the side panels. Interesting installation. no
screws. Velcro was sewn to sound deadening material (3/8 in thick)
which was then glued to the side walls. It was nearly impossible to get
the side panels off. Oh, yea, the arm rests were riveted to the side
panels.
The aluminum side kick panels were gone. Carpet was glued to the
side walls. A ONE-PIECE carpet from the firewall to the back seat was
glued halfway up the side wall. Then, the aluminum side panels were
velcroed on top of that. ALL of the avionics wiring is under the sound
deadening material on the side walls.
OK, so, once I got the carpet on the floor off and started cleaning
30 years of crap out from under the console, I noticed the floor looked
like the bed of a truck that just had a load of gravel dumped into it.
Did someone beat the shit out of it with a ball peen hammer?
Maybe the installer was pissed off because the owner wanted the
carpets under the brake master cylinders.
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Good Story (was: Project plane) |
Speaking of magnetos going bad . . . .
Sam Sun became one of my customers a couple of years ago. He had flown to
Washington to see his girlfriend and was on his way back to his home in
San Diego. He was flying back on a Sunday night in the summer of 2007.
I had been visiting a friend in Forest Hill and was driving across the bri
dge about the time the sun was going to set (the Forest Hill bridge is one
of the highest bridges in the U.S., Vin Diesel drove a Corvette off the
bridge in the movie, "Triple X").
The Auburn airport is only a few minutes from there so I decided to drive
to the airport, drive out on the ramp, and watch the sun set. I got to
the airport just before 9pm and got in place on the ramp for the sunset.
Just as the sun was setting (Sun, get it.) I saw a Tiger on final for runw
ay 7. I'm thinking to myself, "Wow, that was awesome."
The Tiger taxied past me, sitting in the back of my Tahoe, and down around
the parking area. When he came back, possibly to take-off again, I got
out and walked up to the plane to see if he needed help.
Sam opened his canopy and said, "I'm looking for Gary Vogt of AuCountry."
I said that's me and had him follow me back to my hangar.
Sam was stressed to the max. The right mag of his LASAR system had quit
about Mt Shasta. Flight following wanted him to land in Redding or Red
Bluff. He decided to fly to Auburn instead. He'd flown the last hour on
one mag.
SO. I got his plane into my hangar, collected his things, and had him in
the Comfort Inn by 10pm.
I ended up doing a LASARectomy on the plane and put in new mags.
A couple of months ago, Sam came back for his owner assisted annual and gu
ess what? After the annual, the right mag didn't work. He had almost 500
hours on it so we pulled it. Luckily, now, we have Magneto Andy in Aubur
n. Andy specializes in Slick mags. The points had failed so Andy replace
d them.
----------------------
Return customers: I have about 35 regular customers. It varies year to
year. It takes about 3 years to totally recover from years of shitty mai
ntenance without making the owner go bankrupt. My most expensive annual
to date just to make the plane airworthy, not perfect, is $14,000. The
most expensive annual with firewall forward restoration, new eyebrow, pan
el overlays and new avionics: $80,000. The cheapest annual was an owner
assisted annual on a plane I've maintained for 6 years and taught the own
er what to do and when: $700 (including repacking the wheel bearings and
cleaning/gapping the plugs).
In 25 years, I have only turned away one customer. Or, to put it bluntly,
refused to work on their TIger. This particular owner constantly second
guessed everything I did. She even took it to different mechanics to see
if what I was telling her was right. It was only after I found a 3 inch
crack in her engine block and she chose to fly the plane instead of fixin
g it, that I decided not to work on her plane. Her reason, "Well, the eng
ine only has 300 hours on it since overhaul. Why should I get a new block
? I can just get this one welded. That what the guys at **** say I can
do. They said new block is a waste of money."
Truth is, the engine never had a real overhaul. The bank that repossessed
it had had a local guy in New Jersey do a quick and dirty overhaul to sel
l the plane. This is the same plane that had the cracked/splintered fiber
glass landing gear. (Remember that story from about 7 years ago?)
I talked to her after she got the block welded and the plane back in the
air. It cost her $19,000. Turned out the crank was bad, the cam was bad
, and it had several bent rods. She still had the block welded and the wh
ole thing put back together. After that, I decided that maybe I wasn't th
e right person to be taking care of her plane.
-----Original Message-----
From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
Sent: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 6:36 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project plane
Not at all! I think that there is just a lot of VERY sloppy work out ther
e and apparently many mechanics and owners have very low standards and are
happy with mediocre work or even worse! I suppose some owners are just
plain ignorant about what kind of work is being done but there are others
who pinch every penny and put a lot of pressure on their mechanic to get
by as cheaply as possible. I tell my customers when I first start mainta
ining their planes that I won't cut corners and if they don't want me to
maintain their plane like I maintain my own then they can take it elsewhe
re. None of them seem to have a problem with that. I'm sure that's proba
bly the case with you but then there are those first time annuals on plane
s that have had years of deferred maintenance!
As an example of the opposite, I'm doing an annual on a Tiger now that had
an ignition miss on one magneto. After pulling all the spark plugs, clea
ning and testing them I couldn't find any problem. It still ran rough (3
cylinders firing). The mags have only 600 hrs since new and about 70 hrs
since a 500 hrs inspection. Nothing obviously wrong with the mags but th
e ignition harness appears to have a lead that is resulting in misfiring
of one plug. The owner said let's just put two new mags, new harness and
plugs on. He always wants to go overboard the other way when it comes to
maintenance. He doesn't want to take any chances and doesn't want to be
stranded up in Canada out in the boondocks with a mechanical problem. I
like that kind of customer! Maintaining his plane is a joy.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project plane
What can I say? Maybe I'm too picky.
-----Original Message-----
From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 30, 2009 11:51 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Project plane
Maybe the installer was pissed off because the owner wanted the carpets
under the brake master cylinders.
Why run the carpet under the MC? So the carpet can soak up all the brak
e fluid that is spilled! I can't believe the shit you run into, Gary.
Must have something to do with California Grumman maintenance! (Not yo
u of course)
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:08 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Project plane
I pulled the carpets out of the project plane. Here's a good one. Th
e carpets were cut around the brake master cylinders and installed all
the way to the front. The carpets had a 1/2 inch of sound deadening
material sewn to the backing. The carpets weighed 10 lbs.
I also removed the side panels. Interesting installation. no screws.
Velcro was sewn to sound deadening material (3/8 in thick) which was
then glued to the side walls. It was nearly impossible to get the si
de panels off. Oh, yea, the arm rests were riveted to the side panels
.
The aluminum side kick panels were gone. Carpet was glued to the side
walls. A ONE-PIECE carpet from the firewall to the back seat was glu
ed halfway up the side wall. Then, the aluminum side panels were velc
roed on top of that. ALL of the avionics wiring is under the sound de
adening material on the side walls.
OK, so, once I got the carpet on the floor off and started cleaning 30
years of crap out from under the console, I noticed the floor looked li
ke the bed of a truck that just had a load of gravel dumped into it.
Did someone beat the shit out of it with a ball peen hammer?
Maybe the installer was pissed off because the owner wanted the carpets
under the brake master cylinders.
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
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ronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
ric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
w.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
thelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
com">www.howtocrimp.com
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Good Story another mag story |
Picked up my Cherokee 6 after the just overhauled engine had been
installed and did an initial 5 minute flight then a 30 minute flight to
the shops hangar for a "thorough" checkout. Was told to take it on a
long x-country to break in the rings. So I went to Houston for a 2.5 hr
flight. As I entered the class B, I sensed a slight reduction in power.
I had second thoughts on doing a mag check with the destination just 10
minutes away. I decided just to land at the destination. After landing
and refuelling the engine would not start. Not after half hour of trying
even with a jumper.....sometimes hot starts are tough on the fuel
injected Lycoming. I decided to let the FBO mechanics check into it. Got
a call next day. After they got the LoPrest cowl out of the way they
could immediately see the problem. The right mag cap was hanging loose
on the wires completely off the mag. The left mag had only one of the 3
mag cap screws still attached to the mag with only about 3 threads
holding the last screw to the mag.
After the engine had been overhauled it was reinstalled in the aircraft
on a hot sunny day in a roof only hangar with temps exceeding 110. I
figure the mechanics just got in a hurry and forgot to tighten the mag
caps. Of course they stood behind their work and paid all the bills.
I'm just glad I was so fortionate that the engine would not restart...if
it had I would have had a forced landing probably in the middle of
Houston....
ned
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Good Story another mag story |
OK, your story was pretty good.
I did an owner assisted annual about 3 years ago. We removed the exhaust
system for a new one. After getting everything back in place, I told the
owner to tighten all the nuts on the exhaust system. I didn't double che
ck his work.
He called after he got home and told me one side of the exhaust system had
fallen off. Lesson learned.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 1:37 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Good Story another mag story
Picked up my Cherokee 6 after the just overhauled engine had been installe
d and did an initial 5 minute flight then a 30 minute flight to the shops
hangar for a "thorough" checkout. Was told to take it on a long x-country
to break in the rings. So I went to Houston for a 2.5 hr flight. As I ent
ered the class B, I sensed a slight reduction in power. I had second thoug
hts on doing a mag check with the destination just 10 minutes away. I deci
ded just to land at the destination. After landing and refuelling the engi
ne would not start. Not after half hour of trying even with a jumper.....s
ometimes hot starts are tough on the fuel injected Lycoming. I decided to
let the FBO mechanics check into it. Got a call next day. After they got
the LoPrest cowl out of the way they could immediately see the problem.
The right mag cap was hanging loose on the wires completely off the mag.
The left mag had only one of the 3 mag cap screws still attached to the
mag with only about 3 threads holding the last screw to the mag.
After the engine had been overhauled it was reinstalled in the aircraft on
a hot sunny day in a roof only hangar with temps exceeding 110. I figure
the mechanics just got in a hurry and forgot to tighten the mag caps. Of
course they stood behind their work and paid all the bills. I'm just gla
d I was so fortionate that the engine would not restart...if it had I woul
d have had a forced landing probably in the middle of Houston....
ned
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Good Story another mag story |
OK, your story was pretty good.
I did an owner assisted annual about 3 years ago. We removed the exhaust
system for a new one. After getting everything back in place, I told the
owner to tighten all the nuts on the exhaust system. I didn't double che
ck his work.
He called after he got home and told me one side of the exhaust system had
fallen off. Lesson learned.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 1:37 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Good Story another mag story
Picked up my Cherokee 6 after the just overhauled engine had been installe
d and did an initial 5 minute flight then a 30 minute flight to the shops
hangar for a "thorough" checkout. Was told to take it on a long x-country
to break in the rings. So I went to Houston for a 2.5 hr flight. As I ent
ered the class B, I sensed a slight reduction in power. I had second thoug
hts on doing a mag check with the destination just 10 minutes away. I deci
ded just to land at the destination. After landing and refuelling the engi
ne would not start. Not after half hour of trying even with a jumper.....s
ometimes hot starts are tough on the fuel injected Lycoming. I decided to
let the FBO mechanics check into it. Got a call next day. After they got
the LoPrest cowl out of the way they could immediately see the problem.
The right mag cap was hanging loose on the wires completely off the mag.
The left mag had only one of the 3 mag cap screws still attached to the
mag with only about 3 threads holding the last screw to the mag.
After the engine had been overhauled it was reinstalled in the aircraft on
a hot sunny day in a roof only hangar with temps exceeding 110. I figure
the mechanics just got in a hurry and forgot to tighten the mag caps. Of
course they stood behind their work and paid all the bills. I'm just gla
d I was so fortionate that the engine would not restart...if it had I woul
d have had a forced landing probably in the middle of Houston....
ned
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