Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:30 AM - Re: Anouncement (discover)
2. 05:48 AM - Re: Anouncement (flyv35b)
3. 06:07 AM - Re: Anouncement (flyv35b)
4. 07:20 AM - Re: Anouncement (Gil Alexander)
5. 08:37 AM - Anouncement MT compared to Hartzel (923te)
6. 08:46 AM - Re: Anouncement MT compared to Hartzel (923te)
7. 10:46 AM - Re: Anouncement (flyv35b)
8. 10:51 AM - Re: Anouncement MT compared to Hartzel (flyv35b)
9. 12:12 PM - Re: Anouncement (teamgrumman@aol.com)
10. 12:14 PM - Re: Re: Anouncement (teamgrumman@aol.com)
11. 12:20 PM - Re: Anouncement MT compared to Hartzel (teamgrumman@aol.com)
12. 12:38 PM - Re: Anouncement MT compared to Hartzel (flyv35b)
13. 06:36 PM - Fw: Anouncement MT compared to Hartzel (923te)
14. 06:41 PM - Flap wiring question (Carlos Hernandez)
15. 06:44 PM - Re: Anouncement MT compared to Hartzel (923te)
16. 06:57 PM - Re: Anouncement (923te)
17. 09:07 PM - Re: Flap wiring question (teamgrumman@aol.com)
18. 09:10 PM - Re: Anouncement (teamgrumman@aol.com)
19. 09:49 PM - Re: Flap wiring question (carlosh@structuralaz.com)
Message 1
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I'm having trouble getting this posted. Here is the third try...
----- Original Message -----
From: 923te
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 1:51 PM
Subject: MT Prop Questions
I have tried to answer some of the questions below.
The new STC has blades that look very comparable to the Hartzel Scimitar design.
It is supposed to give me another couple of knots of speed do to it's better
efficeincy. I should know by the end of February after I have it installed.
Hartzell Scimitar propeller for the IO470 Bonanza's are $9550 come with a 2400
hour/6 year TBO and weigh 80 lbs
For the O-360 powered Cessna's are $9750 come with a 2400 hour/6 year TBO and weigh
67 lbs
These prices and weights do not include prop governor and controls.
The O-360 A4K engine in the Tiger can only get a constant speed prop thru MT propeller
as it is the only existing manufacture of a certified electric controlled
prop on the planet.
http://www.hartzellprop.com/top_prop/conversion_cutsheet.asp?manufacturer=Beechcraft&conversion_kit=B002
http://www.hartzellprop.com/top_prop/conversion_cutsheet.asp?manufacturer=Cessna&conversion_kit=C020
The lowest price is available only from Less Drag Products. Special agreements
were negotiated in order to induce MT propeller to accomplish the STC which
allow Less Drag to sell the prop exclusively at a discount.
Shipped Assembled door-to-door from Germany - $1,100 estimated. Varies with
destination. To the closest port of entry $1050 estimated plus customs and
pickup.
Shipped Disassembled from Germany to Less Drag Products, Inc. in Southern
California - $360
It is an option to have the prop shipped assembled to your place of choice. It
will may end up costing more.
The MT prop weighs itself 44-lbs
Total installation 54-lbs
McCauley 41.9-lbs
The Sensenich 42.25lbs
Prestolite MZ4222 18.5-lbs
Sky-Tec 149-12L5 8.25-lbs
OEM 24v Alternator 12.25-lbs
Plane Power 24v Alternator 9.8-lbs
Hand propping should be no different than any other 3 bladed prop.
In addition to what is called out in the Manuals of 6 years and 1800hrs TBO.
http://www.mt-propeller.com/pdf/sbs/sb1ag.pdf
I can give this testimonial:
I have flown the prop for the past 6 years and have had absolutely no
maintenance or operational issues with the prop. I have spent $0 for
maintenance. It is a very durable prop. Having the stainless steel leading
edge it can be redressed similarly to the Sensenich. Withstands rain and
racing. It was designed for up to 300hp and 2800 RPM.
As far as performance goes:
Back in 2004 I did extensive flight testing comparing the Sensenich and MT
propellers. David Fletcher donated the labor to remove the MT and reinstall
the Sensenich and then reinstall the MT. I was very confident of at least one
data point at 4000'DA. This comparison data was presented to the grumman gang
and is available in the archive or in an easier to read format here:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0Ad6U0DSgjX1QZGRwd3IybjZfMGhwMnJzbWQ4&hl=en
Lots of gangers told me my plane would be a lot slower with a 3 bladed prop. I
found it was the same speed but burned less fuel. The comments at the AYA fly
in's gave me some motivation to race. After I started racing I found my plane
was able to compete with the fastest Tigers. It was very rewarding to win the
last USA held LoPresti race at the AYA convention in Iowa. While returning
from a race last November I was in a flight of two with a grand champion Tiger
racer. He could barely keep up with me and was burning over 2gph more fuel at
something above 2900rpm....he had to throttle way back in order to have enough
fuel to make his 4 hour flight nonstop....
It is also a very economical prop to fly. You can reduce RPMs to 2450 WOT and
save a couple gph and only loose around 10 knots.
Comparing to the fixed pitch 2 blade prop I have found the MT prop to give the
same as or better cruise speed and remarkably better climb AND descent speeds
and rates. You can descend at Vne and not overspeed the engine.
It really does make a whole new airplane out of the Tiger.
Best Regards,
Ned
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=285040#285040
Message 2
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Five years ago I paid $7900 for a new 3 blade (more expensive than a 2
blade) for a Hartzell Scimitar prop for my Bonanza, including shipping
from Ohio and the STC. Of course it is more than that now. My point
was, MT props are considerably more expensive than Hartzell props, model
for model.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Gil Alexander
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement
My Hartzell estimate was a bit low.
Vans Aircraft volume OEM price - to be installed on a RV-X only - is
$6600 for the new blended airfoil O-360 prop.
So, without the Vans discount, a better estimate may be -
$7200 + $500 + $1500 ????
Still less than the MT, but getting closer.
BO is screwing up the $$, but the Euro folks aren't doing too well
either - check the slope of the 4 month graph...:^)
http://www.x-rates.com/d/EUR/USD/graph120.html
gil A
But a full price comparison with a Harzell would have to include a
new spinner and a new certified governor to add onto your O-360-xxx...
$6000 + $500 + $1500 ????
gil A
With regard to performance or price? Performance is similar I
think and price is considerably more than a Hartzell. When BO gets done
devaluating our dollar the MT prop will cost even more!
Cliff
Message 3
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Forgot to mention that the price I mentioned INCLUDED the spinner
assembly.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: flyv35b
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 5:45 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement
Five years ago I paid $7900 for a new 3 blade (more expensive than a 2
blade) for a Hartzell Scimitar prop for my Bonanza, including shipping
from Ohio and the STC. Of course it is more than that now. My point
was, MT props are considerably more expensive than Hartzell props, model
for model.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Gil Alexander
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement
My Hartzell estimate was a bit low.
Vans Aircraft volume OEM price - to be installed on a RV-X only - is
$6600 for the new blended airfoil O-360 prop.
So, without the Vans discount, a better estimate may be -
$7200 + $500 + $1500 ????
Still less than the MT, but getting closer.
BO is screwing up the $$, but the Euro folks aren't doing too well
either - check the slope of the 4 month graph...:^)
http://www.x-rates.com/d/EUR/USD/graph120.html
gil A
But a full price comparison with a Harzell would have to include a
new spinner and a new certified governor to add onto your O-360-xxx...
$6000 + $500 + $1500 ????
gil A
With regard to performance or price? Performance is similar I
think and price is considerably more than a Hartzell. When BO gets done
devaluating our dollar the MT prop will cost even more!
Cliff
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 4
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To compare the "system", you need to add the governor cost.
Add $1500 to your $7900, and I would guess that a three blade
Hartzell is about the same as the three blade MT prop in 2010 $$$$....:^)
Is it really more for an equivalent MT prop???
gil A
At 07:05 AM 2/6/2010, you wrote:
>Forgot to mention that the price I mentioned INCLUDED the spinner assembly.
>
>Cliff
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:flyv35b@minetfiber.com>flyv35b
>To: <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 5:45 AM
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement
>
>Five years ago I paid $7900 for a new 3 blade (more expensive than a
>2 blade) for a Hartzell Scimitar prop for my Bonanza, including
>shipping from Ohio and the STC. Of course it is more than that
>now. My point was, MT props are considerably more expensive than
>Hartzell props, model for model.
>
>Cliff
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:gilalex@earthlink.net>Gil Alexander
>To: <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 10:30 PM
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement
>
>My Hartzell estimate was a bit low.
>
>Vans Aircraft volume OEM price - to be installed on a RV-X only - is
>$6600 for the new blended airfoil O-360 prop.
>So, without the Vans discount, a better estimate may be -
>
>$7200 + $500 + $1500 ????
>
>Still less than the MT, but getting closer.
>
>BO is screwing up the $$, but the Euro folks aren't doing too well
>either - check the slope of the 4 month graph...:^)
>
>http://www.x-rates.com/d/EUR/USD/graph120.html
>
>gil A
>
>
>>But a full price comparison with a Harzell would have to include a
>>new spinner and a new certified governor to add onto your O-360-xxx...
>>
>>$6000 + $500 + $1500 ????
>>
>>gil A
>>
>>
>>>With regard to performance or price? Performance is similar I
>>>think and price is considerably more than a Hartzell. When BO
>>>gets done devaluating our dollar the MT prop will cost even more!
>>>
>>>Cliff
>
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>
>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>
>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Anouncement MT compared to Hartzel |
The spinner assembly is also included with the MT.
The MT is not inexpensive but until our resident rocket scientist and
Grumman Guy gets the O360B1E approved it's the only game in town for a
controllable pitch prop.
Comparing to your Bonanza prop is really an apples to oranges
comparison.
The Hartzell being hydraulic while the MT is electric with the
associated computer controller box that senses rpm and issues electronic
signals to the motor to make fine pitch adjustments. All this technology
costs more than the older hydraulic technology.
In addition, the MT has features the Hartzell does not have. The MT can
be put in manual mode allowing the prop to function like a fixed pitch
prop. This has a few advantages one being that you can lean to best
power by watching your Tach. Can't do that with a hydraulic prop.
Hartzell does make an electric controlled prop so there is really no
comparison.
But let's run the numbers anyway:
If your not getting some kind of discount then the hydraulic Hartzell
for an O360 powered Cessna is $9750 It also weighs 67 lbs; 13 lbs more
than the MT.
Let's see using the estimate of $1500 for a governor, Hartzel costs
$9750 + $1500 = $11,250 compared to the MT at $11,232 for the first 10
purchasers until March 15.
So the MT is less than the Hartzell!
Considering all the above it's really not a bad deal.
Your Fellow Grumman Enthusiast,
ned
Forgot to mention that the price I mentioned INCLUDED the spinner
assembly.
Cliff
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Anouncement MT compared to Hartzel |
typo correction where it says Hartel does make change to does NOT make
----- Original Message -----
From: 923te
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 10:39 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement MT compared to Hartzel
The spinner assembly is also included with the MT.
The MT is not inexpensive but until our resident rocket scientist and
Grumman Guy gets the O360B1E approved it's the only game in town for a
controllable pitch prop.
Comparing to your Bonanza prop is really an apples to oranges
comparison.
The Hartzell being hydraulic while the MT is electric with the
associated computer controller box that senses rpm and issues electronic
signals to the motor to make fine pitch adjustments. All this technology
costs more than the older hydraulic technology.
In addition, the MT has features the Hartzell does not have. The MT
can be put in manual mode allowing the prop to function like a fixed
pitch prop. This has a few advantages one being that you can lean to
best power by watching your Tach. Can't do that with a hydraulic prop.
Hartzell does make an electric controlled prop so there is really no
comparison.
But let's run the numbers anyway:
If your not getting some kind of discount then the hydraulic Hartzell
for an O360 powered Cessna is $9750 It also weighs 67 lbs; 13 lbs more
than the MT.
Let's see using the estimate of $1500 for a governor, Hartzel costs
$9750 + $1500 = $11,250 compared to the MT at $11,232 for the first 10
purchasers until March 15.
So the MT is less than the Hartzell!
Considering all the above it's really not a bad deal.
Your Fellow Grumman Enthusiast,
ned
Forgot to mention that the price I mentioned INCLUDED the spinner
assembly.
Cliff
Message 7
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I already had a governor. MT now has a prop for the Bonanza (520/550
engines) and I believe it is around $1000 or so more than the Hartzell.
I'll check on that.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Gil Alexander
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement
To compare the "system", you need to add the governor cost.
Add $1500 to your $7900, and I would guess that a three blade Hartzell
is about the same as the three blade MT prop in 2010 $$$$....:^)
Is it really more for an equivalent MT prop???
gil A
At 07:05 AM 2/6/2010, you wrote:
Forgot to mention that the price I mentioned INCLUDED the spinner
assembly.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: flyv35b
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 5:45 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement
Five years ago I paid $7900 for a new 3 blade (more expensive than
a 2 blade) for a Hartzell Scimitar prop for my Bonanza, including
shipping from Ohio and the STC. Of course it is more than that now. My
point was, MT props are considerably more expensive than Hartzell props,
model for model.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Gil Alexander
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement
My Hartzell estimate was a bit low.
Vans Aircraft volume OEM price - to be installed on a RV-X only
- is $6600 for the new blended airfoil O-360 prop.
So, without the Vans discount, a better estimate may be -
$7200 + $500 + $1500 ????
Still less than the MT, but getting closer.
BO is screwing up the $$, but the Euro folks aren't doing too
well either - check the slope of the 4 month graph...:^)
http://www.x-rates.com/d/EUR/USD/graph120.html
gil A
But a full price comparison with a Harzell would have to
include a new spinner and a new certified governor to add onto your
O-360-xxx...
$6000 + $500 + $1500 ????
gil A
With regard to performance or price? Performance is similar
I think and price is considerably more than a Hartzell. When BO gets
done devaluating our dollar the MT prop will cost even more!
Cliff
href="
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="
http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="
http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Anouncement MT compared to Hartzel |
The Hartzell being hydraulic while the MT is electric with the
associated computer controller box that senses rpm and issues electronic
signals to the motor to make fine pitch adjustments. All this technology
costs more than the older hydraulic technology.
Are you sure the MT prop for the Bonanza is electric?
In addition, the MT has features the Hartzell does not have. The MT can
be put in manual mode allowing the prop to function like a fixed pitch
prop. This has a few advantages one being that you can lean to best
power by watching your Tach. Can't do that with a hydraulic prop.
I wouldn't want to lean that way. It's a crude way of leaning.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: 923te
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 8:39 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement MT compared to Hartzel
The spinner assembly is also included with the MT.
The MT is not inexpensive but until our resident rocket scientist and
Grumman Guy gets the O360B1E approved it's the only game in town for a
controllable pitch prop.
Comparing to your Bonanza prop is really an apples to oranges
comparison.
The Hartzell being hydraulic while the MT is electric with the
associated computer controller box that senses rpm and issues electronic
signals to the motor to make fine pitch adjustments. All this technology
costs more than the older hydraulic technology.
In addition, the MT has features the Hartzell does not have. The MT
can be put in manual mode allowing the prop to function like a fixed
pitch prop. This has a few advantages one being that you can lean to
best power by watching your Tach. Can't do that with a hydraulic prop.
Hartzell does make an electric controlled prop so there is really no
comparison.
But let's run the numbers anyway:
If your not getting some kind of discount then the hydraulic Hartzell
for an O360 powered Cessna is $9750 It also weighs 67 lbs; 13 lbs more
than the MT.
Let's see using the estimate of $1500 for a governor, Hartzel costs
$9750 + $1500 = $11,250 compared to the MT at $11,232 for the first 10
purchasers until March 15.
So the MT is less than the Hartzell!
Considering all the above it's really not a bad deal.
Your Fellow Grumman Enthusiast,
ned
Forgot to mention that the price I mentioned INCLUDED the spinner
assembly.
Cliff
Message 9
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When time comes to do the IO360 into a Tiger, I'm going to be looking at
the cost effectiveness, weight, and performance advantages of both.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
Sent: Fri, Feb 5, 2010 6:36 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement
But a full price comparison with a Harzell would have to include a newspin
ner and a new certified governor to add onto yourO-360-xxx...
$6000 + $500 + $1500 ????
gil A
With regard toperformance or price? Performance is similar I think and pr
ice isconsiderably more than a Hartzell. When BO gets done devaluatingour
dollar the MT prop will cost even more!
Cliff
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
Message 10
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what about the weight of a two blade Hartzell? I'll have to do more homew
ork. . . . . .
-----Original Message-----
From: discover <923te@att.net>
Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 4:28 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Anouncement
I'm having trouble getting this posted. Here is the third try...
----- Original Message -----
From: 923te
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 1:51 PM
Subject: MT Prop Questions
I have tried to answer some of the questions below.
The new STC has blades that look very comparable to the Hartzel Scimitar
design.
It is supposed to give me another couple of knots of speed do to it's bett
er
efficeincy. I should know by the end of February after I have it installed
.
Hartzell Scimitar propeller for the IO470 Bonanza's are $9550 come with a
2400
hour/6 year TBO and weigh 80 lbs
For the O-360 powered Cessna's are $9750 come with a 2400 hour/6 year TBO
and
weigh 67 lbs
These prices and weights do not include prop governor and controls.
The O-360 A4K engine in the Tiger can only get a constant speed prop thru
MT
propeller as it is the only existing manufacture of a certified electric
controlled prop on the planet.
http://www.hartzellprop.com/top_prop/conversion_cutsheet.asp?manufacturer
=Beechcraft&conversion_kit=B002
http://www.hartzellprop.com/top_prop/conversion_cutsheet.asp?manufacturer
=Cessna&conversion_kit=C020
The lowest price is available only from Less Drag Products. Special agreem
ents
were negotiated in order to induce MT propeller to accomplish the STC whic
h
allow Less Drag to sell the prop exclusively at a discount.
Shipped Assembled door-to-door from Germany - $1,100 estimated. Varies wi
th
destination. To the closest port of entry $1050 estimated plus customs and
pickup.
Shipped Disassembled from Germany to Less Drag Products, Inc. in Southern
California - $360
It is an option to have the prop shipped assembled to your place of choice
. It
will may end up costing more.
The MT prop weighs itself 44-lbs
Total installation 54-lbs
McCauley 41.9-lbs
The Sensenich 42.25lbs
Prestolite MZ4222 18.5-lbs
Sky-Tec 149-12L5 8.25-lbs
OEM 24v Alternator 12.25-lbs
Plane Power 24v Alternator 9.8-lbs
Hand propping should be no different than any other 3 bladed prop.
In addition to what is called out in the Manuals of 6 years and 1800hrs TB
O.
http://www.mt-propeller.com/pdf/sbs/sb1ag.pdf
I can give this testimonial:
I have flown the prop for the past 6 years and have had absolutely no
maintenance or operational issues with the prop. I have spent $0 for
maintenance. It is a very durable prop. Having the stainless steel leading
edge it can be redressed similarly to the Sensenich. Withstands rain and
racing. It was designed for up to 300hp and 2800 RPM.
As far as performance goes:
Back in 2004 I did extensive flight testing comparing the Sensenich and MT
propellers. David Fletcher donated the labor to remove the MT and reinstal
l
the Sensenich and then reinstall the MT. I was very confident of at least
one
data point at 4000'DA. This comparison data was presented to the grumman
gang
and is available in the archive or in an easier to read format here:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0Ad6U0DSgjX1QZGRwd3IybjZfMGhwMnJzbWQ4&h
l=en
Lots of gangers told me my plane would be a lot slower with a 3 bladed pro
p. I
found it was the same speed but burned less fuel. The comments at the AYA
fly
in's gave me some motivation to race. After I started racing I found my pl
ane
was able to compete with the fastest Tigers. It was very rewarding to win
the
last USA held LoPresti race at the AYA convention in Iowa. While returning
from a race last November I was in a flight of two with a grand champion
Tiger
racer. He could barely keep up with me and was burning over 2gph more fuel
at
something above 2900rpm....he had to throttle way back in order to have en
ough
fuel to make his 4 hour flight nonstop....
It is also a very economical prop to fly. You can reduce RPMs to 2450 WOT
and
save a couple gph and only loose around 10 knots.
Comparing to the fixed pitch 2 blade prop I have found the MT prop to give
the
same as or better cruise speed and remarkably better climb AND descent spe
eds
and rates. You can descend at Vne and not overspeed the engine.
It really does make a whole new airplane out of the Tiger.
Best Regards,
Ned
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=285040#285040
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Anouncement MT compared to Hartzel |
My bottom line will be predicated on weight.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 8:39 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement MT compared to Hartzel
The spinner assembly is also included with the MT.
The MT is not inexpensive but until our resident rocket scientist and Grum
man Guy gets the O360B1E approved it's the only game in town for a control
lable pitch prop.
Comparing to your Bonanza prop is really an apples to oranges comparison.
The Hartzell being hydraulic while the MT is electric with the associated
computer controller box that senses rpm and issues electronic signals to
the motor to make fine pitch adjustments. All this technology costs more
than the older hydraulic technology.
In addition, the MT has features the Hartzell does not have. The MT can be
put in manual mode allowing the prop to function like a fixed pitch prop.
This has a few advantages one being that you can lean to best power by wa
tching your Tach. Can't do that with a hydraulic prop.
Hartzell does make an electric controlled prop so there is really no compa
rison.
But let's run the numbers anyway:
If your not getting some kind of discount then the hydraulic Hartzell for
an O360 powered Cessna is $9750 It also weighs 67 lbs; 13 lbs more than
the MT.
Let's see using the estimate of $1500 for a governor, Hartzel costs $9750
sers until March 15.
So the MT is less than the Hartzell!
Considering all the above it's really not a bad deal.
Your Fellow Grumman Enthusiast,
ned
Forgot to mention that the price I mentioned INCLUDED the spinner assemb
ly.
Cliff
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Anouncement MT compared to Hartzel |
The composite blade props will be lighter weight than and all aluminum
blade. I seem to recall that Hartzell is now making a composite blade
prop for experimental use. If you are starting with a whole different
engine model why not look at a lighter weight composite prop. I just
think that with MT's requirement to ship the prop back to one service
center and maybe weight weeks for it to get repaired as compared to
having most any prop shop repair a Hartzell has to be a detracting
factor for the MT. I know of one experimental owner who had a MT who
waited weeks and weeks to get a governor for his MT prop from Germany.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement MT compared to Hartzel
My bottom line will be predicated on weight.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 8:39 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement MT compared to Hartzel
The spinner assembly is also included with the MT.
The MT is not inexpensive but until our resident rocket scientist and
Grumman Guy gets the O360B1E approved it's the only game in town for a
controllable pitch prop.
Comparing to your Bonanza prop is really an apples to oranges
comparison.
The Hartzell being hydraulic while the MT is electric with the
associated computer controller box that senses rpm and issues electronic
signals to the motor to make fine pitch adjustments. All this technology
costs more than the older hydraulic technology.
In addition, the MT has features the Hartzell does not have. The MT
can be put in manual mode allowing the prop to function like a fixed
pitch prop. This has a few advantages one being that you can lean to
best power by watching your Tach. Can't do that with a hydraulic prop.
Hartzell does make an electric controlled prop so there is really no
comparison.
But let's run the numbers anyway:
If your not getting some kind of discount then the hydraulic Hartzell
for an O360 powered Cessna is $9750 It also weighs 67 lbs; 13 lbs more
than the MT.
Let's see using the estimate of $1500 for a governor, Hartzel costs
$9750 + $1500 = $11,250 compared to the MT at $11,232 for the first 10
purchasers until March 15.
So the MT is less than the Hartzell!
Considering all the above it's really not a bad deal.
Your Fellow Grumman Enthusiast,
ned
Forgot to mention that the price I mentioned INCLUDED the spinner
assembly.
Cliff
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
ttp://forums.matronics.com
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 13
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| Subject: | Anouncement MT compared to Hartzel |
I was comenting on your comparison and trying to connect that comparison
to what is actually available. Hartzell props are not electric but
hydraulic.
On the leaning for best power by using the Tach. That is the method
prescribed in the Lycoming Engine Operators Book and it seems to work
very well. Can you tell me a better way to lean for best power?
Are you sure the MT prop for the Bonanza is electric?
In addition, the MT has features the Hartzell does not have. The MT
can be put in manual mode allowing the prop to function like a fixed
pitch prop. This has a few advantages one being that you can lean to
best power by watching your Tach. Can't do that with a hydraulic prop.
I wouldn't want to lean that way. It's a crude way of leaning.
Cliff
Message 14
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| Subject: | Flap wiring question |
Hello! I'm new here and I have a question for you. I have a Grumman flap
motor and I need a little help with wire identification. There are 4
wires from the motor which are black, red, yellow and brown. I know two
of them are for the limit switches but I don't have a wiring diagram for
which is + and -. I've seen a diagram on the web that showed a black and
orange wire for flaps but I don't have an orange wire. I have a project
I'd like to use this on.
Thanks in advance for your assistance!
Carlos in Arizona
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Anouncement MT compared to Hartzel |
When was it that the experimental owner waitd weeks to get a governor?
Was it perhaps several years ago? The required governor is stocked by
Van's htese days and manuy other supply houses. I bought the PCU 5000
which works for the MT for my RV9A Whirlwing prop about 5 years ago from
a shop in Illinois and it took 3 days shipping to receive.
I will be getting my 6 year TBO on my MT prop done this month in Oxnard.
It is expected to take one week and most of that time is the 4 days
round trip shipping.
It just sounds like you don't like the idea of MT props in general?
Are you saying that MT props are not a good thing for the Tiger?
Ned
..... I just think that with MT's requirement to ship the prop back to
one service center and maybe weight weeks for it to get repaired as
compared to having most any prop shop repair a Hartzell has to be a
detracting factor for the MT. I know of one experimental owner who had
a MT who waited weeks and weeks to get a governor for his MT prop from
Germany.
Cliff
Message 16
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http://www.mt-propellerusa.com/pdf/stcflyer/bonanza.pdf
No price but says the MT is 26 lbs lighter.....and something abojut an
RPM of 2650 vs Hartzells limit?
----- Original Message -----
From: flyv35b
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement
I already had a governor. MT now has a prop for the Bonanza (520/550
engines) and I believe it is around $1000 or so more than the Hartzell.
I'll check on that.
Cliff
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Flap wiring question |
If you looked at my wiring diagram, I think I put orange because that is
what it said in the original paperwork/drawing. The motor is a simple DC
motor. The limit switches have nothing to do with the motor. I don't re
call what the colors are from the switches.
Take a look at my wiring diagram
www.AuCountry.com
click on Technical Stuff.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: Carlos Hernandez <carlosh@structuralaz.com>
Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 6:36 pm
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Flap wiring question
alaz.com>
Hello! I'm new here and I have a question for you. I have a Grumman flap
motor and I need a little help with wire identification. There are 4 wire
s from the motor which are black, red, yellow and brown. I know two of the
m are for the limit switches but I don't have a wiring diagram for which
is + and -. I've seen a diagram on the web that showed a black and orange
wire for flaps but I don't have an orange wire. I have a project I'd like
to use this on.
Thanks in advance for your assistance!
Carlos in Arizona
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Message 18
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|
Look at the TCDS on the MT prop. It's redlined at 2800 rpm and no yellow
arcs. If they, MT, can get a decent prop profile that isn't from the 50'
s, I'd seriously consider it for the IO360 project plane.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 6:59 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement
http://www.mt-propellerusa.com/pdf/stcflyer/bonanza.pdf
No price but says the MT is 26 lbs lighter.....and something abojut an RPM
of 2650 vs Hartzells limit?
----- Original Message -----
From: flyv35b
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Anouncement
I already had a governor. MT now has a prop for the Bonanza (520/550 en
gines) and I believe it is around $1000 or so more than the Hartzell.
I'll check on that.
Cliff
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Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Flap wiring question |
Thank you Gary. I'll take another look. Is there a place I can send this
in for repair or motor replacement if necessary?
Carlos
>-- Original Message --
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Flap wiring question
>Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 00:04:24 -0500
>From: teamgrumman@aol.com
>
>
>If you looked at my wiring diagram, I think I put orange because that is
>what it said in the original paperwork/drawing. The motor is a simple DC
>motor. The limit switches have nothing to do with the motor. I don't recall
>what the colors are from the switches.
>
>
>Take a look at my wiring diagram
>
>
>www.AuCountry.com
>
>
>click on Technical Stuff.
>
>
>Gary
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Carlos Hernandez <carlosh@structuralaz.com>
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Sat, Feb 6, 2010 6:36 pm
>Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Flap wiring question
>
>
>
>
>Hello! I'm new here and I have a question for you. I have a Grumman flap
>motor and I need a little help with wire identification. There are 4 wires
>from the motor which are black, red, yellow and brown. I know two of them
>are for the limit switches but I don't have a wiring diagram for which is
>+ and -. I've seen a diagram on the web that showed a black and orange wire
>for flaps but I don't have an orange wire. I have a project I'd like to
use
>this on.
>
>Thanks in advance for your assistance!
>Carlos in Arizona
>
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>====================================
>====================================
>====================================
>
>
>
>
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