Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:13 AM - Re: Cowling dimensions (Bob Steward)
2. 06:12 AM - Re: Engine mount shims. Need help. (flyv35b)
3. 06:46 AM - Re: Engine mount shims. Need help. (phil@ReliantAir.com)
4. 08:27 AM - Re: Re: Cowling dimensions (teamgrumman@aol.com)
5. 08:53 AM - Re: Re: Cowling dimensions (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
6. 09:13 PM - Re: Engine mount shims. Need help. (teamgrumman@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Cowling dimensions |
>Bob S, you're a font of knowledge on lots of things. Do you know if there
> are differences between the installed heights of any of the engine mount
> vibration isolators? I know there a a couple of different part numbers
> out there for Tiger/Cheetahs, do they have different installed heights?
I don't have any data on differences in height between the Lord and Barry
mounts. I have shimmed (and in many cased UNshimmed) the engine to mount
configuration to get the spinner centered in the stock nose bowl. IMHO,
the purpose of the shims is to make up for manufacturing tolerances in the
cowling, the mount, and the firewall. Only the bottom shim washers are
required to have the engine clear the steel mount, due to the diameter of
the pressed steel cups that Grumman used. Other brands (C, P, B) have
different designs of steel mount pads, and don't require any lower shims to
be standard.
It is interesting that the experimental crowd just bolts the engine to the
mount, and then fits the cowl with the spinner in the position that it
falls. Could be some pretty large plane to plane variations as the exact
position of the firewall varies, the mount varies, and if you listen to
PowerFlow, even the Lycoming engine varies from unit to unit! And this
could affect the thrust line, which in turn changes the flight characteristics.
Given the problems I've had swapping cowl parts to repair crack damaged
planes, I'd say there probably is AT LEAST 1/4" manufacturing tolerance in
the area you speak of -- distance from firewall to crank flange.
My suggestion is to center the spinner in the stock cowl, and then install
the Jaguar cowl and trim the trailing edge as needed to achieve a good fit.
Alternatively, you might have to construct some sort of jig/fixture that
will confirm the crank flange position relative to the firewall for a
"standard" installation, and then compare that to each plane before the
gross trim of the cowl.
Best wishes, we are all pulling for you!
Bob Steward
Birmingham, AL
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Engine mount shims. Need help. |
"Bob S, you're a font of knowledge on lots of things. Do you know if
there are differences between the installed heights of any of the engine
mount vibration isolators? I know there a a couple of different part
numbers out there for Tiger/Cheetahs, do they have different installed
heights?"
There are three different mounts for Tigers, 2 Lord and 1 Barry. The
early Tigers used a J-9613-49, which was changed to an improved
J-9613-59 mount in 1977 as I recall. The Barry mount is a cross for the
-49 Lord mount and no cross for the -59 is available. Many of the
planes that came with the -59 mount have been replaced with the Barry
mount because it is CHEAPER (but not as good). From a stack height
standpoint, all three mounts should be the same I would think but the
-59 mounts have a considerably higher spring rate in compression and
lower spring rate in shear. In effect they will sag less and absorb
torsional vibration better.
Cliff
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Engine mount shims. Need help. |
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Cowling dimensions |
Bob, both this and the one you sent to TeamGrumman@aol.com come to the sam
e mailbox.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Steward <n76lima@mindspring.com>
Sent: Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:18 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Cowling dimensions
m>
>Bob S, you're a font of knowledge on lots of things. Do you know if ther
e
> are differences between the installed heights of any of the engine moun
t
> vibration isolators? I know there a a couple of different part numbers
> out there for Tiger/Cheetahs, do they have different installed heights?
I don't have any data on differences in height between the Lord and Barry
mounts. I have shimmed (and in many cased UNshimmed) the engine to mount
configuration to get the spinner centered in the stock nose bowl. IMHO,
the purpose of the shims is to make up for manufacturing tolerances in th
e cowling, the mount, and the firewall. Only the bottom shim washers are
required to have the engine clear the steel mount, due to the diameter of
the pressed steel cups that Grumman used. Other brands (C, P, B) have di
fferent designs of steel mount pads, and don't require any lower shims to
be standard.
It is interesting that the experimental crowd just bolts the engine to the
mount, and then fits the cowl with the spinner in the position that it fa
lls. Could be some pretty large plane to plane variations as the exact po
sition of the firewall varies, the mount varies, and if you listen to Powe
rFlow, even the Lycoming engine varies from unit to unit! And this could
affect the thrust line, which in turn changes the flight characteristics.
Given the problems I've had swapping cowl parts to repair crack damaged pl
anes, I'd say there probably is AT LEAST 1/4" manufacturing tolerance in
the area you speak of -- distance from firewall to crank flange.
My suggestion is to center the spinner in the stock cowl, and then install
the Jaguar cowl and trim the trailing edge as needed to achieve a good fi
t.
Alternatively, you might have to construct some sort of jig/fixture that
will confirm the crank flange position relative to the firewall for a "st
andard" installation, and then compare that to each plane before the gross
trim of the cowl.
Best wishes, we are all pulling for you!
Bob Steward
Birmingham, AL
========================
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Cowling dimensions |
Bob, could you do me a favor and post this request on GG? The more data
the better.
Thanks
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Steward <n76lima@mindspring.com>
Sent: Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:18 am
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Cowling dimensions
m>
>Bob S, you're a font of knowledge on lots of things. Do you know if ther
e
> are differences between the installed heights of any of the engine moun
t
> vibration isolators? I know there a a couple of different part numbers
> out there for Tiger/Cheetahs, do they have different installed heights?
I don't have any data on differences in height between the Lord and Barry
mounts. I have shimmed (and in many cased UNshimmed) the engine to mount
configuration to get the spinner centered in the stock nose bowl. IMHO,
the purpose of the shims is to make up for manufacturing tolerances in th
e cowling, the mount, and the firewall. Only the bottom shim washers are
required to have the engine clear the steel mount, due to the diameter of
the pressed steel cups that Grumman used. Other brands (C, P, B) have di
fferent designs of steel mount pads, and don't require any lower shims to
be standard.
It is interesting that the experimental crowd just bolts the engine to the
mount, and then fits the cowl with the spinner in the position that it fa
lls. Could be some pretty large plane to plane variations as the exact po
sition of the firewall varies, the mount varies, and if you listen to Powe
rFlow, even the Lycoming engine varies from unit to unit! And this could
affect the thrust line, which in turn changes the flight characteristics.
Given the problems I've had swapping cowl parts to repair crack damaged pl
anes, I'd say there probably is AT LEAST 1/4" manufacturing tolerance in
the area you speak of -- distance from firewall to crank flange.
My suggestion is to center the spinner in the stock cowl, and then install
the Jaguar cowl and trim the trailing edge as needed to achieve a good fi
t.
Alternatively, you might have to construct some sort of jig/fixture that
will confirm the crank flange position relative to the firewall for a "st
andard" installation, and then compare that to each plane before the gross
trim of the cowl.
Best wishes, we are all pulling for you!
Bob Steward
Birmingham, AL
========================
============
========================
============
========================
============
========================
============
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Engine mount shims. Need help. |
You really should have 1 shim on each of the bottom mounts. The engine ca
se actually contacts the mount if you don't.
The spinner down 1/8 is good. In flight, the engine/spinner comes up. I
bet you wonder how I know this. A little smily face on my cowling told
me. (alternator drive pulley.)
-----Original Message-----
From: phil@ReliantAir.com
Sent: Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:46 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Engine mount shims. Need help.
79 Tiger S/N 0942, 2 washers top right, 1 bottom left, none on rest. 39
3/4" FW to spinner. Spinner droops 1/8 " down and to the right. No sag
in Barry mounts that were installed in 2000.
Phil
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Engine mount shims. Need help.
Some of you may remember= I asked what the distance was on your Tiger/Ch
eetah from the firewall to= the back of the spinner (you know, the edge
you'd be measuring to if you= laid a measuring tape across the top of
the engine from the firewall to= the aft edge of the spinner. Don't ma
ke this harder than it has to= be).
NOTE: The original tooling was made on N28840. This plane had= one shim
on the top of each mount. A splash made from that original= tooling wa
s fitted on about a half dozen planes. I have pictures of= it on John
Bunker's plane and Vi Bui's plane. They all fit fine. &n=bsp;So, I fin
alized the tooling. From that tooling, a cowling was ma=de and installe
d on N119ST. All of my initial flights were with that= plane.
My original question was a result of, during the fitting of Jaguar co=wl
ing Serial Number: 0 on N1976T, I found that distance to be 39 3/4= inc
hes. Whereas, mine was 40 inches (mine has 2 shims on each top= bushing
). This made the 'trim-to-fit' lines on the cowling about us=eless. I
added shims to the top engine mount bushings and that moved= the engine
down somewhat. Still shy of 40 inches, but, not much. &n=bsp;Fitting
the cowling was still a pain in the ass.
OK, so, then comes Serial Number 1: N3752W was 39 3/4 inches wi=th one
shim on each top. I added one shim each and that moved it to= 40 inche
s. Still, fitting the cowling was odd because the trim line= on the lef
t side of the cowling was right, but, the right side was 1/4 in=ches shy
(meaning I had to trim 1/4 inch more than indicated by the trim= line).
Along the bottom, the trim goes from trim line to 1/4 inches= forward.
I have a spare fuselage with an engine hanging on it. With one= shim on
each top mount, it was a little over 39 3/4, say 39 13/16. =I added on
e shim to each and got about 40 inches. Great. Or so= I thought. I be
gan fitting a cowling for another plane using that= configuration. Stil
l, it was off about 1/4 inches on the right side=.
Solution: I installed the cowling from my plane onto the spare= fuselag
e. The result was, in order to get the engine to align with= the my cow
ling, I had to add an additional 1/2 shim to the right and remo=ve 1 shi
m from the left. Both bottom mounts have 1 shim each.
I have N119ST in my hangar. It has no shims on the top left, on=e on th
e top right and one each on the bottom mounts. That engine is= 40 1/16
from the firewall to the spinner.
So, please do my a favor, a big favor, and look at your spinner to no=se
bowl alignment. Then give me the following information.
Alignment: (e.g., aligned, spinner is to the right and down, et=c.)
Distance from firewall to spinner: (i.e., measure from the fire=wall ad
jacent to where the hinge mounts and the aft edge of the spinner)
Then engine mount shim configuration:
Top Left: (e.g., 1 shim, 2 shims, etc)
Top right: ( same )
Bottom left: (same )
Bottom right ( same).
Bob S, you're a font of knowledge on lots of things. Do you kno=w if th
ere are differences between the installed heights of any of the eng=ine
mount vibration isolators? I know there a a couple of different= part
numbers out there for Tiger/Cheetahs, do they have different install=ed
heights?
You all (Y'all, Garner) might want to know why it makes a difference.=
As installed, my prop spinner to cowling gap is about .100 to .120= in
ches. Trust me, it makes a difference. Please, I need to kn=ow how muc
h variation there is in the installed distances.
Thanks in advance.
Gary
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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