---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 03/09/10: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:13 AM - Re: Cowling dimensions (Bob Steward) 2. 06:12 AM - Re: Engine mount shims. Need help. (flyv35b) 3. 06:46 AM - Re: Engine mount shims. Need help. (phil@ReliantAir.com) 4. 08:27 AM - Re: Re: Cowling dimensions (teamgrumman@aol.com) 5. 08:53 AM - Re: Re: Cowling dimensions (teamgrumman@AOL.COM) 6. 09:13 PM - Re: Engine mount shims. Need help. (teamgrumman@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:13:31 AM PST US From: Bob Steward Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Cowling dimensions >Bob S, you're a font of knowledge on lots of things. Do you know if there > are differences between the installed heights of any of the engine mount > vibration isolators? I know there a a couple of different part numbers > out there for Tiger/Cheetahs, do they have different installed heights? I don't have any data on differences in height between the Lord and Barry mounts. I have shimmed (and in many cased UNshimmed) the engine to mount configuration to get the spinner centered in the stock nose bowl. IMHO, the purpose of the shims is to make up for manufacturing tolerances in the cowling, the mount, and the firewall. Only the bottom shim washers are required to have the engine clear the steel mount, due to the diameter of the pressed steel cups that Grumman used. Other brands (C, P, B) have different designs of steel mount pads, and don't require any lower shims to be standard. It is interesting that the experimental crowd just bolts the engine to the mount, and then fits the cowl with the spinner in the position that it falls. Could be some pretty large plane to plane variations as the exact position of the firewall varies, the mount varies, and if you listen to PowerFlow, even the Lycoming engine varies from unit to unit! And this could affect the thrust line, which in turn changes the flight characteristics. Given the problems I've had swapping cowl parts to repair crack damaged planes, I'd say there probably is AT LEAST 1/4" manufacturing tolerance in the area you speak of -- distance from firewall to crank flange. My suggestion is to center the spinner in the stock cowl, and then install the Jaguar cowl and trim the trailing edge as needed to achieve a good fit. Alternatively, you might have to construct some sort of jig/fixture that will confirm the crank flange position relative to the firewall for a "standard" installation, and then compare that to each plane before the gross trim of the cowl. Best wishes, we are all pulling for you! Bob Steward Birmingham, AL ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:01 AM PST US From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Engine mount shims. Need help. "Bob S, you're a font of knowledge on lots of things. Do you know if there are differences between the installed heights of any of the engine mount vibration isolators? I know there a a couple of different part numbers out there for Tiger/Cheetahs, do they have different installed heights?" There are three different mounts for Tigers, 2 Lord and 1 Barry. The early Tigers used a J-9613-49, which was changed to an improved J-9613-59 mount in 1977 as I recall. The Barry mount is a cross for the -49 Lord mount and no cross for the -59 is available. Many of the planes that came with the -59 mount have been replaced with the Barry mount because it is CHEAPER (but not as good). From a stack height standpoint, all three mounts should be the same I would think but the -59 mounts have a considerably higher spring rate in compression and lower spring rate in shear. In effect they will sag less and absorb torsional vibration better. Cliff ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:54 AM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Engine mount shims. Need help. 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bGVkIGhlaWdodHM/DQoNCg0KWW91IGFsbCAoWSdhbGwsIEdhcm5lcikgbWlnaHQgd2FudCB0byBr bm93IHdoeSBpdCBtYWtlcyBhIGRpZmZlcmVuY2UuICBBcyBpbnN0YWxsZWQsIG15IHByb3Agc3Bp bm5lciB0byBjb3dsaW5nIGdhcCBpcyBhYm91dCAuMTAwIHRvIC4xMjAgaW5jaGVzLiAgVHJ1c3Qg bWUsIGl0IG1ha2VzIGEgZGlmZmVyZW5jZS4gIFBsZWFzZSwgSSBuZWVkIHRvIGtub3cgaG93IG11 Y2ggdmFyaWF0aW9uIHRoZXJlIGlzIGluIHRoZSBpbnN0YWxsZWQgZGlzdGFuY2VzLg0KDQoNClRo YW5rcyBpbiBhZHZhbmNlLg0KR2FyeSANCg0K ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:27:56 AM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Cowling dimensions From: teamgrumman@aol.com Bob, both this and the one you sent to TeamGrumman@aol.com come to the sam e mailbox. -----Original Message----- From: Bob Steward Sent: Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:18 am Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Cowling dimensions m> >Bob S, you're a font of knowledge on lots of things. Do you know if ther e > are differences between the installed heights of any of the engine moun t > vibration isolators? I know there a a couple of different part numbers > out there for Tiger/Cheetahs, do they have different installed heights? I don't have any data on differences in height between the Lord and Barry mounts. I have shimmed (and in many cased UNshimmed) the engine to mount configuration to get the spinner centered in the stock nose bowl. IMHO, the purpose of the shims is to make up for manufacturing tolerances in th e cowling, the mount, and the firewall. Only the bottom shim washers are required to have the engine clear the steel mount, due to the diameter of the pressed steel cups that Grumman used. Other brands (C, P, B) have di fferent designs of steel mount pads, and don't require any lower shims to be standard. It is interesting that the experimental crowd just bolts the engine to the mount, and then fits the cowl with the spinner in the position that it fa lls. Could be some pretty large plane to plane variations as the exact po sition of the firewall varies, the mount varies, and if you listen to Powe rFlow, even the Lycoming engine varies from unit to unit! And this could affect the thrust line, which in turn changes the flight characteristics. Given the problems I've had swapping cowl parts to repair crack damaged pl anes, I'd say there probably is AT LEAST 1/4" manufacturing tolerance in the area you speak of -- distance from firewall to crank flange. My suggestion is to center the spinner in the stock cowl, and then install the Jaguar cowl and trim the trailing edge as needed to achieve a good fi t. Alternatively, you might have to construct some sort of jig/fixture that will confirm the crank flange position relative to the firewall for a "st andard" installation, and then compare that to each plane before the gross trim of the cowl. Best wishes, we are all pulling for you! Bob Steward Birmingham, AL ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:58 AM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Cowling dimensions From: teamgrumman@AOL.COM Bob, could you do me a favor and post this request on GG? The more data the better. Thanks Gary -----Original Message----- From: Bob Steward Sent: Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:18 am Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Cowling dimensions m> >Bob S, you're a font of knowledge on lots of things. Do you know if ther e > are differences between the installed heights of any of the engine moun t > vibration isolators? I know there a a couple of different part numbers > out there for Tiger/Cheetahs, do they have different installed heights? I don't have any data on differences in height between the Lord and Barry mounts. I have shimmed (and in many cased UNshimmed) the engine to mount configuration to get the spinner centered in the stock nose bowl. IMHO, the purpose of the shims is to make up for manufacturing tolerances in th e cowling, the mount, and the firewall. Only the bottom shim washers are required to have the engine clear the steel mount, due to the diameter of the pressed steel cups that Grumman used. Other brands (C, P, B) have di fferent designs of steel mount pads, and don't require any lower shims to be standard. It is interesting that the experimental crowd just bolts the engine to the mount, and then fits the cowl with the spinner in the position that it fa lls. Could be some pretty large plane to plane variations as the exact po sition of the firewall varies, the mount varies, and if you listen to Powe rFlow, even the Lycoming engine varies from unit to unit! And this could affect the thrust line, which in turn changes the flight characteristics. Given the problems I've had swapping cowl parts to repair crack damaged pl anes, I'd say there probably is AT LEAST 1/4" manufacturing tolerance in the area you speak of -- distance from firewall to crank flange. My suggestion is to center the spinner in the stock cowl, and then install the Jaguar cowl and trim the trailing edge as needed to achieve a good fi t. Alternatively, you might have to construct some sort of jig/fixture that will confirm the crank flange position relative to the firewall for a "st andard" installation, and then compare that to each plane before the gross trim of the cowl. Best wishes, we are all pulling for you! Bob Steward Birmingham, AL ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:31 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Engine mount shims. Need help. From: teamgrumman@aol.com You really should have 1 shim on each of the bottom mounts. The engine ca se actually contacts the mount if you don't. The spinner down 1/8 is good. In flight, the engine/spinner comes up. I bet you wonder how I know this. A little smily face on my cowling told me. (alternator drive pulley.) -----Original Message----- From: phil@ReliantAir.com Sent: Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:46 am Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Engine mount shims. Need help. 79 Tiger S/N 0942, 2 washers top right, 1 bottom left, none on rest. 39 3/4" FW to spinner. Spinner droops 1/8 " down and to the right. No sag in Barry mounts that were installed in 2000. Phil Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry From: teamgrumman@aol.com Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Engine mount shims. Need help. Some of you may remember= I asked what the distance was on your Tiger/Ch eetah from the firewall to= the back of the spinner (you know, the edge you'd be measuring to if you= laid a measuring tape across the top of the engine from the firewall to= the aft edge of the spinner. Don't ma ke this harder than it has to= be). NOTE: The original tooling was made on N28840. This plane had= one shim on the top of each mount. A splash made from that original= tooling wa s fitted on about a half dozen planes. I have pictures of= it on John Bunker's plane and Vi Bui's plane. They all fit fine. &n=bsp;So, I fin alized the tooling. From that tooling, a cowling was ma=de and installe d on N119ST. All of my initial flights were with that= plane. My original question was a result of, during the fitting of Jaguar co=wl ing Serial Number: 0 on N1976T, I found that distance to be 39 3/4= inc hes. Whereas, mine was 40 inches (mine has 2 shims on each top= bushing ). This made the 'trim-to-fit' lines on the cowling about us=eless. I added shims to the top engine mount bushings and that moved= the engine down somewhat. Still shy of 40 inches, but, not much. &n=bsp;Fitting the cowling was still a pain in the ass. OK, so, then comes Serial Number 1: N3752W was 39 3/4 inches wi=th one shim on each top. I added one shim each and that moved it to= 40 inche s. Still, fitting the cowling was odd because the trim line= on the lef t side of the cowling was right, but, the right side was 1/4 in=ches shy (meaning I had to trim 1/4 inch more than indicated by the trim= line). Along the bottom, the trim goes from trim line to 1/4 inches= forward. I have a spare fuselage with an engine hanging on it. With one= shim on each top mount, it was a little over 39 3/4, say 39 13/16. =I added on e shim to each and got about 40 inches. Great. Or so= I thought. I be gan fitting a cowling for another plane using that= configuration. Stil l, it was off about 1/4 inches on the right side=. Solution: I installed the cowling from my plane onto the spare= fuselag e. The result was, in order to get the engine to align with= the my cow ling, I had to add an additional 1/2 shim to the right and remo=ve 1 shi m from the left. Both bottom mounts have 1 shim each. I have N119ST in my hangar. It has no shims on the top left, on=e on th e top right and one each on the bottom mounts. That engine is= 40 1/16 from the firewall to the spinner. So, please do my a favor, a big favor, and look at your spinner to no=se bowl alignment. Then give me the following information. Alignment: (e.g., aligned, spinner is to the right and down, et=c.) Distance from firewall to spinner: (i.e., measure from the fire=wall ad jacent to where the hinge mounts and the aft edge of the spinner) Then engine mount shim configuration: Top Left: (e.g., 1 shim, 2 shims, etc) Top right: ( same ) Bottom left: (same ) Bottom right ( same). Bob S, you're a font of knowledge on lots of things. Do you kno=w if th ere are differences between the installed heights of any of the eng=ine mount vibration isolators? I know there a a couple of different= part numbers out there for Tiger/Cheetahs, do they have different install=ed heights? You all (Y'all, Garner) might want to know why it makes a difference.= As installed, my prop spinner to cowling gap is about .100 to .120= in ches. Trust me, it makes a difference. Please, I need to kn=ow how muc h variation there is in the installed distances. Thanks in advance. Gary =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.