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1. 08:07 PM - wing tank leak (Joe Allen)
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Just so there is no misunderstanding. According to Loyd there was no factory repair
of a fuel tank leak, and if there had been, they would have repainted the
wing access panel before delivering the plane for resale. He looked up the records.
The Dealer was the one who tried to seal the leak.
On Mar 29, 2010, at 11:59 PM, TeamGrumman-List Digest Server wrote:
> *
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> Total Messages Posted Mon 03/29/10: 7
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> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 11:53 AM - Re: fuel tank leak (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
> 2. 11:53 AM - Fw: leak (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
> 3. 11:53 AM - Re: fuel tank leak (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
> 4. 11:53 AM - Fw: Last night (teamgrumman@AOL.COM)
> 5. 12:42 PM - Re: A couple of things (Linn Walters)
> 6. 11:19 PM - Re: Jaguar cowling pirep (Martin Ringvold)
> 7. 11:19 PM - Re: Jaguar cowling pirep (Martin Ringvold)
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:53:21 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: fuel tank leak
> From: teamgrumman@AOL.COM
>
> It was titled, "A couple of things"
>
>
> I had commented on the wing leak and working on a Cheetah
>
>
> The leak is coming from somewhere along the outboard rib. I completely re
> sealed around the spar and plus or minus a foot on either side of it. App
> arently, the tank leaked at the factory and an attempt was made to reseal
> it there. They used high adhesion sealant on the access covers.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
> Sent: Sun, Mar 28, 2010 1:03 pm
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: fuel tank leak
>
>
> I can't find the original message ...... you might repost it.
> Linn
> do not archive
>
> teamgrumman@aol.com wrote:
> doesn't anyonehave a suggestion regarding the fuel leak?
>
>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m
> atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> ontribution
>
>
> =======================
> ==========
> =======================
> ==========
> =======================
> ==========
> =======================
> ==========
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:53:21 AM PST US
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Fwd: leak
> From: teamgrumman@AOL.COM
>
>
> On Mar 27, 2010, at 8:39 PM, teamgrumman@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> Joe, do you mean to tell me the leak only shows after flying???????
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Allen <joeallencontact@comcast.net>
> Sent: Sun, Mar 28, 2010 5:26 pm
> Subject: Re: leak
>
>
> Yes!!! It appears that is the case. Originally it never showed a leak sitt
> ing on the ground only after flying. The only time I saw a leak on the gr
> ound was the time the tank had been dry for a while at your shop, and I
> filled it back up at Auburn to take the plane home. That is when I saw
> one little drop come out as the line guy was filling the tank. That was
> not the case the other day as he filled it. That is why I crawled under
> and videoed the filling. I expected to see a leak but there was not one
> evident. I will clean it off tonight and check it again tomorrow and th
> e next day, and the next ... since it is supposed to be raining the whole
> week. Might as well see if it leaks sitting still.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Allen <joeallencontact@comcast.net>
> Sent: Sat, Mar 27, 2010 7:23 pm
> Subject: leak
>
>
> Hi Gary.
>
>
> I can't get the videos to download, but when the tank was filled there was
> not the little drip that I saw originally when we filled the dry tank a
> couple of months ago, and there was also no sign of leakage aft of the or
> iginal area.
>
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
> Joe
>
>
> The following shots were taken this afternoon, but it is what it looked li
> ke after I landed yeaterday. There was not a lot of bumps on the way home
> at 4500 ft.
> The access panels are clean with no leaking.
>
>
> <IMG_0307.jpg>
>
>
> IMG_0307
>
>
> The halo area is where the original leak was. The front of the wing is to
> the left.
> <IMG_0309.jpg>
>
> IMG_0309
>
>
> Looking from the front of the wing. There is evidence of stain forward of
> where it was originally, but as you can see the bulk is still coming from
> the original area and now maybe from the aft section also, but that could
> also be seepage from the front.
> <IMG_0310.jpg>
>
> IMG_0310
>
>
> <IMG_0311.jpg>
>
> IMG_0311
>
>
> Again the access panels are clean.
> <IMG_0312.jpg>
>
> IMG_0312
>
>
> <IMG_0313.jpg>
>
> IMG_0313
>
>
> Closeup of the aft area
> <IMG_0314.jpg>
>
> IMG_0314
>
>
> Original leak area.
> <IMG_0315.jpg>
>
> IMG_0315
>
>
> <IMG_0316.jpg>
>
> IMG_0316
>
>
> <IMG_0317.jpg>
>
> IMG_0317
>
>
> <IMG_0318.jpg>
>
>
> Interestingly I looked at the cap after the line guy filled it up and I di
> d not see any of this residual blue stuff, but it was there after I landed
> .
>
> <IMG_0319.jpg>
>
>
> The following photos are after I cleaned off the stains as best I could an
> d then went flying for 45 minutes on the Bay Tour this afternoon at 1200
> ft in calm air.
>
>
> <IMG_0320.jpg>
>
> IMG_0320
>
>
> <IMG_0321.jpg>
>
> IMG_0321
>
>
> <IMG_0322.jpg>
>
> IMG_0322
>
>
> <IMG_0323.jpg>
>
>
> This is what it looks like after the Bay Tour.
>
> <IMG_0338.jpg>
>
> IMG_0338
>
>
> You can now see staining anterior of the original area.
> <IMG_0339.jpg>
>
> IMG_0339
>
>
> <IMG_0340.jpg>
>
> IMG_0340
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:53:34 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: fuel tank leak
> From: teamgrumman@AOL.COM
>
> I thought about that or something similar. The tank needs to be empty .
> . . . again. Leaks are such a pain in the ass.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 923te <923te@att.net>
> Sent: Sun, Mar 28, 2010 3:07 pm
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: fuel tank leak
>
>
> I guess you could check the tank like we did on the Pulsar I built.
>
> Put a balloon on the vent and and blow on the fuel line to pressurize the
> tank by filling the balloon. Then apply soapy water every where until you
> see bubbles.....
>
>
> =======================
> ==========
> =======================
> ==========
> =======================
> ==========
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>
> ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:53:59 AM PST US
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Fwd: Last night
> From: teamgrumman@AOL.COM
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Allen <joeallendds@comcast.net>
> Sent: Mon, Mar 29, 2010 8:42 am
> Subject: Last night
>
>
> This is what it looked like last night. So unless this is residual fuel
> that was hidden under the strap and leaked out after I cleaned it off yes
> terday. If not residual, then I would have to say that it appears that it
> is now leaking while sitting on the ground. I never had this before the
> repair. I will go out today and look again and take new photos.
>
>
> The stain was not dry as it would come off on my finger and smudge around.
>
>
> I sent you the videos separately.
>
>
> What's the next step?
>
>
> IMG_0342
>
>
> IMG_0343
>
>
> IMG_0344
>
>
> IMG_0345
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 12:42:15 PM PST US
> From: Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: A couple of things
>
> OK, found the email ..... see below.
> teamgrumman@AOL.COM wrote:
>> *Tiger LLC Tiger: * One of my customers has a 2005 Tiger. He also has
>> a fuel leak on the right wing, outboard rib, bottom.
> I guess there are blue stains??? So you know where the exit is?
>> I removed the wing and the sealant and couldn't find anything that
>> would indicate a potential leak. What I did notice is the ribs and
>> attachments are different than earlier Tigers. From the looks of it,
>> there is NO place to leak without sealant. It appears to be bonded
>> all the way under the spar. The sealant in the tank was also just a
>> very thin coat that appeared to be brushed over the bond joints. I
>> resealed just like I would on an early wing. It still leaks. So, I
>> can tell you the leak is not coming from the entire lower bond joint
>> on the outboard rib.
> I'm confused. Above you say "He also has a fuel leak on the right wing,
> outboard rib, bottom." but now you say the leak isn't there.
>> Any ideas?
> yes. Actually two.
> #1 ...... set up your (clean real good!) shop-vac to blow. Seal off the
> vents. Put the hose in the filler and turn on the shop-vac. Spray the
> outer rib with soapy water and look for the leak. You may have to put a
> rag around the nozzle, but be careful not to overpressure.
>
> #2 .... put a little 100 LL in the tank and stand it on end. Pressurize
> as in #1 and look for the leak. #1 should work better because air is
> thinner than the 100LL.
>
> Now, a fix from the RV crowd. Once you find the leak, draw a small
> vacuum on the tank and paint the leak exit spot with green Loctite. The
> green Loctite will expand due to the air (or maybe moisture in the air,
> I don't know) and plug a small leak.
>
> I've also used #1 with the hose stuck into the intake to find intake
> leaks, and into the oil filler to find crankcase, front seal, and
> pinholes in pushrod tubes. Just make sure the shop-vac is clean.
>
> Linn
>
>> What do you know about the bonding on the newer Tigers?
>>
>>
>> *Cheetah Lopresti Nose bowl: *I have worked on a few Tigers with the
>> LoPresti nose bowl but this was my first Cheetah with one. This
>> Cheetah also had a donkey dick Power Flow. The combination of the two
>> makes removing the cowling a real pain in the ass. The large exit
>> ramp (LoPresti) and the rod sticking through the other exit ramp makes
>> it impossible to remove the cowling without bending it in the middle.
>> The doubler on the cowling was cracked about half way through.
>> *PLUS,* the Power Flow airbox had been installed wrong and didn't fit
>> either the cowling or the nose bowl worth a damn. The airbox was held
>> in with just the screws for the air filter access cover. *PLUS,* the
>> LoPresti nose bowl didn't fit all that well to the baffles in the
>> front. Something is definitely wrong with the entire combination.
>>
>> That was my week.
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:19:18 PM PST US
> From: Martin Ringvold <mringvold@YAHOO.COM>
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Jaguar cowling pirep
>
>
> I apologize if this is a duplicate post, I can't see my original post come through.
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> I have to wait for the summer to see how high the CHT gets but I would normally
> power down when I see CHTs in the 420 in cruise. 2600 ended up as a good power
> setting for speed/fuel flow/EGT/CHTs when leaned out in cruise at altitude.
>
> To your question regarding fuel flow: I'll be able to lean more aggressively
than
> in the past in terms of keeping CHT in check, but I have to ask others to educate
> me on other potential fuel flow benefits from this STC. From memory, I
> think I burned around 9.5 GPH @ 10K/2600 leaned out on my last XC trip.
>
> If you are interested, come up to KCIC one weekend and I'll show you the plane
> and take you for a ride if you would like to.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:19:29 PM PST US
> From: Martin Ringvold <mringvold@YAHOO.COM>
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Jaguar cowling pirep
>
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> I have to wait for the summer to see how high the CHT gets but I would normally
> power down when I see CHTs in the 420 in cruise. 2600 ended up as a good power
> setting for speed/fuel flow/EGTs/CHTs when leaned out in cruise at altitude.
>
> To your question regarding fuel flow: I'll be able to lean more aggressively
than
> in the past in terms of keeping CHT in check, but I have to ask others to educate
> me on other potential fuel flow benefits from this STC. From memory, I
> think I burned around 9.5 GPH @ 10K/2600 leaned out on my last XC trip.
>
> If you are interested, come up to KCIC one weekend and I'll show you the plane
> and take you for a ride if you would like to.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
> Time:04:23:32 PM PST USFrom:BILL9725@AOL.COMSubject:Re: Jaguar cowling pirep
>
> Hi Martin
>
> Thanks so much for the report on Gary`s great creation. I have been in
>
> sic with you on the same issues on my 75 tiger, also located in Northern
>
> Calif. My number 4 cylinder will always hover around 425 on normal cruise
>
> 2600 same altitude. I am looking to do the same but do not already have
> the
>
> power flow already on. The fun part is to think it will be great because
>
> the engine is similar to yours but a Millie um motor with only 150 hours
> on
> it. Very strong though as it will easily climb to over 13,000 and more
> and
> I have yet to see a altitude where I did not have to pull back to keep
it
>
> under 2700, same 63 inch prop. So I am looking to go with Gary`s mod and
> a
> 65 inch prop. What kind of fuel flows are you seeing? I have the EDM
> with fuel flows and am sure you mod also saves here too!
>
> I am going to the meet at Willow on Saturday and hope you can attend also
>
> so we can go over the mod in detail.
>
> Bill
> N1540R
>
>
> In a message dated 3/25/2010 3:11:27 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> mringvold@YAHOO.COM writes:
>
> Well, I took the leap and ordered the first production AuCountry Jaguar
>
> cowling. I've flown the plane about 10 hours since I received it from Gary
>
> about two weeks ago.
>
> I use the 79 Tiger primarily for 150-450 NM cross country trips from
> Norcal to the Bay Area and Los Angles for work and pleasure. Besides the
> urge
>
> for a fancy upgrade I've always been bothered by the high EGT and oil
> temperatures in climb and cruise on these frequent trips. I've got the
EDM-700
> and
> I'm aware of the past discussions whether EDM indicates higher
> temperatures than their EI engine monitor counterpart. Although I dislike
> the
> "EDM
> temps" creeping up well beyond 400 CHTs under most circumstances except
> cold
>
> weather (mid 30s-40 here in CA) Gary has always maintained that I don't
>
> have a CHT heating issue. Still, with the powerflow already in place (required
>
> for the STC) I went for the upgrade.
>
> I don't have well documented before-data but I know my plane pretty well
>
> after ~350 hours flown, mostly XC. Under conditions seen in the last two
>
> weeks with temperatures a bit over standard temperatures I would normally
>
> cruise between 8-10K at 2600 leaned out with myself, full fuel and 30 lbs
> of
> bags. In the past (with standard temperature days) I would see #3 creep
> up to
>
> ~425 in climb and hoover around/over 400 in cruise (worse in the summer
>
> time). Now, I see #1 as the hottest cylinder in climb at ~410 but take
> into
>
> consideration that I've leaned more aggressively these past jaguar-hours
>
> in climb due to the better cooling. At cruising altitude (10K) 2600 RPM
> #1
> remains the hottest around 375 while the 2,3 and 4 stays in the high 360s.
>
> At full throttle at 10K leaned out (100-75 ROP) I did not see CHTs over
>
> 400. The oil temperature on my recent 3 hour flight lied flat on 180 degrees.
>
> I've had problems keeping it below 200 in the past but I must admit I pay
>
> closer attention to the oil temperatures in the summer months so I can't
>
> cough up a good standard-day comparison for oil temps before we're in the
>
> summer days.
>
> I think its too early for me to cement the actual cooling improvement
> numbers but so far I'm very satisfied too see the EDM CHTs well below 400
> and
>
> I'm looking forward to see the numbers once it gets into the 100s here
in
>
> CA.
>
> With the same few recent data points, I've seen 143-144 TAS at 10K full
>
> throttle performance on these recent trips. In the past, with my removed
>
> steps, tail strobe mod, Lycon 400 SMOH engine and 63 prop pitch I've observed
>
> time and again that my plane came out to the original FT "tiger speed"
at
>
> 138-139 TAS, all measured with the Garmin 430W TAS computer.
>
> The oil check involves cowling pop-screws so the pre-flight takes a bit
>
> more time on the ground. Other than that, my wife things the "plane looks
>
> new" and she suggested a new paint job since the cowling came out with
white
>
> paint...I'll try to talk her out of it...
>
> Martin
> N3752W
>
>
> (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List)
> .com/contribution)
>
>
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