Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:37 AM - Re: Re: AG5B Jaguar (Ned Thomas)
2. 06:26 AM - Re: Re: AG5B Jaguar (923te)
3. 06:48 AM - Re: Compression test (flyv35b)
4. 07:04 AM - Re: Re: AG5B Jaguar (flyv35b)
5. 07:34 AM - Re: Re: AG5B Jaguar (923te)
6. 08:10 AM - Re: Re: AG5B Jaguar (flyv35b)
7. 10:09 AM - Re: Re: AG5B Jaguar (teamgrumman@aol.com)
8. 10:09 AM - Re: Re: AG5B Jaguar (teamgrumman@aol.com)
9. 10:16 AM - Re: Compression test (teamgrumman@aol.com)
10. 10:47 AM - Re: Re: AG5B Jaguar (teamgrumman@aol.com)
11. 11:50 AM - Re: Re: AG5B Jaguar (teamgrumman@aol.com)
12. 09:34 PM - Re: Re: AG5B Jaguar (923te)
13. 11:37 PM - Re: Re: AG5B Jaguar (teamgrumman@aol.com)
Message 1
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Without starting an argument about the oversimplification of trying to
apply Bernoulili's principle to the airfow in your cowl, let me simply
ask again,
Do you have before and after manifold pressure data comparing manifold
pressure in the cylinder head with the factory cowl and your cowl?
As you know Pressure drop across the cylinders is not even close to
answering this question
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
On May 3, 2010, at 2:08 PM, teamgrumman@aol.com wrote:
> I have slowed the airflow down, Ned. And, thanks to a fellow named
> Bernoulli, pressure goes up. I got 1.5 to 2.5 inches more pressure
> drop across the cylinders than stock using half the inlet area. All
> those years in fluid dynamics weren't wasted.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 923te <923te@att.net>
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sun, May 2, 2010 9:23 pm
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
>
> Gary,
> In all your testing for the Jaguar Cowling did you happen to get
> before and after manifold pressure data? If so, for the same
> conditions, is the manifold pressure lower with the Jaguar cowl than
> with the factory cowl? Seems apparent that you have slowed the
> airflow over the cylinders ie dropped the pressure on top of the
> cylinders.....
>
> Ned
>
>
> ===================================
> ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> ===================================
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
> ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
>
>
Message 2
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Gary,
What is the paint used on the inside of the cowl?
I need some more paint.
It will need to be touched up after the roughness and 'catches' have
been smoothed out.
Thanks,
Ned
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Compression test |
I've only done a couple of cranking/leak-down comparison tests. But I
have had valves that did not seat due to carbon or some contamination.
But that has typically been the exhaust valve as I recall. What you
described doing is called "staking" the valve and has been used for
years to try and get a leaking valve to seat. Doing it with pressure in
the cylinder hopefully lets the escaping air to blow out the
contaminant. There almost always is some leakage past the rings and you
will always hear some air leak into the case (heard at the dipstick fill
tube with the stick out or loose). My Lynx has 2 cylinders that test
80/80 and the other 2 at 79/80. On the 80/80 ones you don't hear any
air leak. As you know the orifice in the compression tester is very
small and even a small leak will cause a drop on the gauge reading. I
don't know how well this correlates with a cranking test where you are
moving a lot of air and how well that same small leak will affect the
cranking pressure. Obviously it does some.
Intake valves can also have problems with the guides and possibly not
seat squarely on the seat, resulting in a leak. I had a cylinder not
long ago that had a loose intake guide in the head. It was moving up
and down with the valve. But almost all the time the problems are with
the exhaust valve and guide.
I've also seen an engine that tested several cylinders at 20/80 or even
less after sitting around for 8 months that came back up to normal after
running the engine and flying it for a few hours. Continental says that
compression test numbers that are as low as about 46/80 are acceptable
provided the valves are sealing and boroscope inspection shows no
exhaust valve burning, etc. That also assume that oil consumption is
reasonable and not excessive. And I've heard of an engine being run
without the piston rings installed and it supposedly developed normal
power! But this is just hearsay evidence. So I wonder how important
the static compression test is relative to leakage past the rings and
what happens when the engine is running.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 12:42 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Compression test
Cliff,
Remember when we talked about doing cranking pressure tests? I
started doing cranking pressure tests as a side-by-side comparison test
to the leak down test.
Yesterday, I was doing the tests on a Tiger as
(1) leak-down/cranking
(3) cranking/leak-down
(2) leak-down/cranking
(4) cranking/leak-down.
I compared the previous years tests as I went. When I got to the #4,
the cranking pressure was about 6 psi lower. Not a big deal. I
regularly see variations of plus or minus 4 or 5 lbs. This one,
however, seemed like it took 6 revolutions of the engine to build
pressure. (it normally takes about 4 passes to reach peak).
When I checked leak-down, it was 55/80. The odd thing was, no sound
of leaking air at the oil filler neck or exhaust pipe. That much would
show up somewhere. As I was looking for a leak, I noticed a lot of air
coming out of the #1 top plug hole. A leak at the #4 intake was the
only explanation. I've never encountered a leak at the intake valve.
I removed the rocker cover and intake rocker arm thinking it might be
a stuck lifter. Same result. With pressure on it, I gave the intake
valve a quick 'pop' with a small rubber mallet. Compression went right
to 77/80.
I took it apart and put it back together after cleaning the lifter and
measuring the dry tappet clearance (0.048 inches). Ran the engine,
checked again, and 77/80.
Have you (or anyone else) seen such a thing?
Gary
Message 4
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Are you talking about the AA-5B, Ned?
Gary's cowl (on his plane) uses the stock AA5B induction system and I
doubt that his cowling had any measurable effect on the induction system
manifold pressure. If you get only 1" hg. MP drop at full throttle on
takeoff vs. atmospheric with the engine not running that is about the
best you can hope for and I think the Tiger system is pretty close to
this. Increasing the pressure above the cylinders by 1" or 2" of H2O
would be unnoticeable on a MP gauge.
Gary's real complaint has been with the efficiency, or lack thereof, of
the AG-5B induction system. See his recent comment below.
. The first step is to fix (i.e., correct) the poorly designed carb air
inlet using as much hardware as is already there. The idea is to provide
something that is simple to install and regains the lost inch of
pressure.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Ned Thomas
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 5:33 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Without starting an argument about the oversimplification of trying to
apply Bernoulili's principle to the airfow in your cowl, let me simply
ask again,
Do you have before and after manifold pressure data comparing manifold
pressure in the cylinder head with the factory cowl and your cowl?
As you know Pressure drop across the cylinders is not even close to
answering this question
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
On May 3, 2010, at 2:08 PM, teamgrumman@aol.com wrote:
I have slowed the airflow down, Ned. And, thanks to a fellow named
Bernoulli, pressure goes up. I got 1.5 to 2.5 inches more pressure drop
across the cylinders than stock using half the inlet area. All those
years in fluid dynamics weren't wasted.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sun, May 2, 2010 9:23 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Gary,
In all your testing for the Jaguar Cowling did you happen to get
before and after manifold pressure data? If so, for the same conditions,
is the manifold pressure lower with the Jaguar cowl than with the
factory cowl? Seems apparent that you have slowed the airflow over the
cylinders ie dropped the pressure on top of the cylinders.....
Ned
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
ttp://forums.matronics.com
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
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ontribution
Message 5
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Cliff,
Yes I am asking what the manifold pressure on the AA5B cowl is compared
to the manifold pressure on the Jaguar cowl.
I'm not asking about the over cylinder pressure, under cylinder pressure
or the differential just the manifold pressure. Either Gary has the data
or he doesn't. I just want to know if he has it and what it was. I'm not
looking for an extrapolation just if the manifold pressure was directly
measured on both cowls.
I need to eliminate all the variables so I can determine why my plane is
slower and hotter after the cowl installation than it was before the
cowl installation.
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: flyv35b
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Are you talking about the AA-5B, Ned?
Gary's cowl (on his plane) uses the stock AA5B induction system and I
doubt that his cowling had any measurable effect on the induction system
manifold pressure. If you get only 1" hg. MP drop at full throttle on
takeoff vs. atmospheric with the engine not running that is about the
best you can hope for and I think the Tiger system is pretty close to
this. Increasing the pressure above the cylinders by 1" or 2" of H2O
would be unnoticeable on a MP gauge.
Gary's real complaint has been with the efficiency, or lack thereof,
of the AG-5B induction system. See his recent comment below.
. The first step is to fix (i.e., correct) the poorly designed carb
air inlet using as much hardware as is already there. The idea is to
provide something that is simple to install and regains the lost inch of
pressure.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Ned Thomas
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 5:33 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Without starting an argument about the oversimplification of trying
to apply Bernoulili's principle to the airfow in your cowl, let me
simply ask again,
Do you have before and after manifold pressure data comparing
manifold pressure in the cylinder head with the factory cowl and your
cowl?
As you know Pressure drop across the cylinders is not even close to
answering this question
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
On May 3, 2010, at 2:08 PM, teamgrumman@aol.com wrote:
I have slowed the airflow down, Ned. And, thanks to a fellow
named Bernoulli, pressure goes up. I got 1.5 to 2.5 inches more
pressure drop across the cylinders than stock using half the inlet area.
All those years in fluid dynamics weren't wasted.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sun, May 2, 2010 9:23 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Gary,
In all your testing for the Jaguar Cowling did you happen to get
before and after manifold pressure data? If so, for the same conditions,
is the manifold pressure lower with the Jaguar cowl than with the
factory cowl? Seems apparent that you have slowed the airflow over the
cylinders ie dropped the pressure on top of the cylinders.....
Ned
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
ttp://forums.matronics.com
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
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ontribution
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Message 6
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I guess Gary will have to answer that. I can't imagine that MP would
vary much at all.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: 923te
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Cliff,
Yes I am asking what the manifold pressure on the AA5B cowl is
compared to the manifold pressure on the Jaguar cowl.
I'm not asking about the over cylinder pressure, under cylinder
pressure or the differential just the manifold pressure. Either Gary has
the data or he doesn't. I just want to know if he has it and what it
was. I'm not looking for an extrapolation just if the manifold pressure
was directly measured on both cowls.
I need to eliminate all the variables so I can determine why my plane
is slower and hotter after the cowl installation than it was before the
cowl installation.
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: flyv35b
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Are you talking about the AA-5B, Ned?
Gary's cowl (on his plane) uses the stock AA5B induction system and
I doubt that his cowling had any measurable effect on the induction
system manifold pressure. If you get only 1" hg. MP drop at full
throttle on takeoff vs. atmospheric with the engine not running that is
about the best you can hope for and I think the Tiger system is pretty
close to this. Increasing the pressure above the cylinders by 1" or 2"
of H2O would be unnoticeable on a MP gauge.
Gary's real complaint has been with the efficiency, or lack thereof,
of the AG-5B induction system. See his recent comment below.
. The first step is to fix (i.e., correct) the poorly designed carb
air inlet using as much hardware as is already there. The idea is to
provide something that is simple to install and regains the lost inch of
pressure.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Ned Thomas
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 5:33 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Without starting an argument about the oversimplification of
trying to apply Bernoulili's principle to the airfow in your cowl, let
me simply ask again,
Do you have before and after manifold pressure data comparing
manifold pressure in the cylinder head with the factory cowl and your
cowl?
As you know Pressure drop across the cylinders is not even close
to answering this question
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
On May 3, 2010, at 2:08 PM, teamgrumman@aol.com wrote:
I have slowed the airflow down, Ned. And, thanks to a fellow
named Bernoulli, pressure goes up. I got 1.5 to 2.5 inches more
pressure drop across the cylinders than stock using half the inlet area.
All those years in fluid dynamics weren't wasted.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sun, May 2, 2010 9:23 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Gary,
In all your testing for the Jaguar Cowling did you happen to get
before and after manifold pressure data? If so, for the same conditions,
is the manifold pressure lower with the Jaguar cowl than with the
factory cowl? Seems apparent that you have slowed the airflow over the
cylinders ie dropped the pressure on top of the cylinders.....
Ned
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
ttp://forums.matronics.com
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
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ontribution
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atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
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Message 7
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Imron N0006
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Tue, May 4, 2010 6:23 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Gary,
What is the paint used on the inside of the cowl?
I need some more paint.
It will need to be touched up after the roughness and 'catches' have been
smoothed out.
Thanks,
Ned
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Message 8
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I didn't notice any appreciable difference in MAP between cowlings.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ned Thomas <923te@att.net>
Sent: Tue, May 4, 2010 5:33 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Without starting an argument about the oversimplification of trying to app
ly Bernoulili's principle to the airfow in your cowl, let me simply ask ag
ain,
Do you have before and after manifold pressure data comparing manifold pre
ssure in the cylinder head with the factory cowl and your cowl?
As you know Pressure drop across the cylinders is not even close to answer
ing this question
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
On May 3, 2010, at 2:08 PM, teamgrumman@aol.com wrote:
I have slowed the airflow down, Ned. And, thanks to a fellow named Bernou
lli, pressure goes up. I got 1.5 to 2.5 inches more pressure drop across
the cylinders than stock using half the inlet area. All those years in
fluid dynamics weren't wasted.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Sun, May 2, 2010 9:23 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Gary,
In all your testing for the Jaguar Cowling did you happen to get before an
d after manifold pressure data? If so, for the same conditions, is the man
ifold pressure lower with the Jaguar cowl than with the factory cowl? See
ms apparent that you have slowed the airflow over the cylinders ie dropped
the pressure on top of the cylinders.....
Ned
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
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ntribution
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========================
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========================
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Compression test |
I thought I said, maybe not, but there was no leakage at the oil filler or
the exhaust pipe. With 55/80, I expected to hear something at one or the
other. I, too, have never experienced an intake leak.
It was while searching for the hissing sound that I notice a lot of air co
ming out of #1 top plug (hole). Since that would be the cylinder that sho
uld be in the filling cycle, that pointed me to the #4 intake.
I talked to Ken and he said he sees a lot of blue/black residue in the int
akes. He said it was possible there was some residue holding the valve ju
st off the seat. I explained what I did and he said there really wasn't
anything else I can do. These are new cylinders with 400 hours on them.
Hard hours, but, just 400 hours.
I'll repeat the tests after the test flight.
-----Original Message-----
From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
Sent: Tue, May 4, 2010 6:29 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Compression test
I've only done a couple of cranking/leak-down comparison tests. But I hav
e had valves that did not seat due to carbon or some contamination. But
that has typically been the exhaust valve as I recall. What you describe
d doing is called "staking" the valve and has been used for years to try
and get a leaking valve to seat. Doing it with pressure in the cylinder
hopefully lets the escaping air to blow out the contaminant. There almos
t always is some leakage past the rings and you will always hear some air
leak into the case (heard at the dipstick fill tube with the stick out or
loose). My Lynx has 2 cylinders that test 80/80 and the other 2 at 79/80
. On the 80/80 ones you don't hear any air leak. As you know the orifice
in the compression tester is very small and even a small leak will cause
a drop on the gauge reading. I don't know how well this correlates with
a cranking test where you are moving a lot of air and how well that same
small leak will affect the cranking pressure. Obviously it does some.
Intake valves can also have problems with the guides and possibly not seat
squarely on the seat, resulting in a leak. I had a cylinder not long ago
that had a loose intake guide in the head. It was moving up and down wit
h the valve. But almost all the time the problems are with the exhaust va
lve and guide.
I've also seen an engine that tested several cylinders at 20/80 or even le
ss after sitting around for 8 months that came back up to normal after run
ning the engine and flying it for a few hours. Continental says that comp
ression test numbers that are as low as about 46/80 are acceptable provide
d the valves are sealing and boroscope inspection shows no exhaust valve
burning, etc. That also assume that oil consumption is reasonable and no
t excessive. And I've heard of an engine being run without the piston rin
gs installed and it supposedly developed normal power! But this is just
hearsay evidence. So I wonder how important the static compression test
is relative to leakage past the rings and what happens when the engine is
running.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 12:42 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Compression test
Cliff,
Remember when we talked about doing cranking pressure tests? I started
doing cranking pressure tests as a side-by-side comparison test to the
leak down test.
Yesterday, I was doing the tests on a Tiger as
(1) leak-down/cranking
(3) cranking/leak-down
(2) leak-down/cranking
(4) cranking/leak-down.
I compared the previous years tests as I went. When I got to the #4, th
e cranking pressure was about 6 psi lower. Not a big deal. I regularly
see variations of plus or minus 4 or 5 lbs. This one, however, seemed
like it took 6 revolutions of the engine to build pressure. (it normal
ly takes about 4 passes to reach peak).
When I checked leak-down, it was 55/80. The odd thing was, no sound of
leaking air at the oil filler neck or exhaust pipe. That much would sh
ow up somewhere. As I was looking for a leak, I noticed a lot of air co
ming out of the #1 top plug hole. A leak at the #4 intake was the only
explanation. I've never encountered a leak at the intake valve.
I removed the rocker cover and intake rocker arm thinking it might be a
stuck lifter. Same result. With pressure on it, I gave the intake va
lve a quick 'pop' with a small rubber mallet. Compression went right to
77/80.
I took it apart and put it back together after cleaning the lifter and
measuring the dry tappet clearance (0.048 inches). Ran the engine, che
cked again, and 77/80.
Have you (or anyone else) seen such a thing?
Gary
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href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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Message 10
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Ned, take out the closeout you fabricated on the bottom of your cowling.
All of the flight tests were done with that open. You'll notice a big
difference in CHT.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Tue, May 4, 2010 7:37 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Cliff,
Yes I am asking what the manifold pressure on the AA5B cowl is compared to
the manifold pressure on the Jaguar cowl.
I'm not asking about the over cylinder pressure, under cylinder pressure
or the differential just the manifold pressure. Either Gary has the data
or he doesn't. I just want to know if he has it and what it was. I'm not
looking for an extrapolation just if the manifold pressure was directly
measured on both cowls.
I need to eliminate all the variables so I can determine why my plane is
slower and hotter after the cowl installation than it was before the cowl
installation.
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: flyv35b
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Are you talking about the AA-5B, Ned?
Gary's cowl (on his plane) uses the stock AA5B induction system and I do
ubt that his cowling had any measurable effect on the induction system
manifold pressure. If you get only 1" hg. MP drop at full throttle on
takeoff vs. atmospheric with the engine not running that is about the
best you can hope for and I think the Tiger system is pretty close to
this. Increasing the pressure above the cylinders by 1" or 2" of H2O
would be unnoticeable on a MP gauge.
Gary's real complaint has been with the efficiency, or lack thereof, of
the AG-5B induction system. See his recent comment below.
=A2 The first step is to fix (i.e., correct) the poorly designed car
b air inlet using as much hardware as is already there. The idea is to
provide something that is simple to install and regains the lost inch
of pressure.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Ned Thomas
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 5:33 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Without starting an argument about the oversimplification of trying to
apply Bernoulili's principle to the airfow in your cowl, let me simply
ask again,
Do you have before and after manifold pressure data comparing manifold
pressure in the cylinder head with the factory cowl and your cowl?
As you know Pressure drop across the cylinders is not even close to an
swering this question
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
On May 3, 2010, at 2:08 PM, teamgrumman@aol.com wrote:
I have slowed the airflow down, Ned. And, thanks to a fellow named
Bernoulli, pressure goes up. I got 1.5 to 2.5 inches more pressure
drop across the cylinders than stock using half the inlet area. Al
l those years in fluid dynamics weren't wasted.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Sun, May 2, 2010 9:23 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Gary,
In all your testing for the Jaguar Cowling did you happen to get bef
ore and after manifold pressure data? If so, for the same conditions
, is the manifold pressure lower with the Jaguar cowl than with the
factory cowl? Seems apparent that you have slowed the airflow over
the cylinders ie dropped the pressure on top of the cylinders.....
Ned
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co
ntribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
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href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
========================
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Message 11
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Ned,
You changed the prop and the cowling at the same time. And you're saying
the cowling made the plane slower? Are you serious? I flew the plane,
remember? I also flew along side of you. At 152 TAS, you're at least 12
knots faster than a stock AG5B.
Ned, you got a hell-of-a-deal on that cowling. $9000 installed. It shoul
dn't cost more than $500 to get the outside painted to match. I painted
the inside for you to protect the fiberglass from getting oil soaked. I
exchange, you kept your old cowling and baffles which I usually keep to
recover some of the 50 hours in labor I put into baffles, fitting, painti
ng and installing the cowling. I could sell cowlings all day long at $900
0 installed if I wanted to go out of business. As it is, I lost $4,500 on
your installation alone.
Ned, I'm sorry you're not happy with the cowling. You haven't been happy
with the whole deal since we started. I've gone out-of-my-way to accommo
date you and the installation on your AG5B, including pissing-off my DER
and DAR. Nothing I've done seems to be good enough for you.
If you're not happy with the cowling, sell it to your buddy there in OK fo
r $10,000. Make a clean $1000 for your effort. All the hard work in fitt
ing and trimming is done. You still have your original cowling, reinstall
it. His plane would only need (at the most) to have the engine mount shi
ms adjusted to align the spinner. I'm fairly certain he'd be happy with
the cowling.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Tue, May 4, 2010 7:37 am
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Cliff,
Yes I am asking what the manifold pressure on the AA5B cowl is compared to
the manifold pressure on the Jaguar cowl.
I'm not asking about the over cylinder pressure, under cylinder pressure
or the differential just the manifold pressure. Either Gary has the data
or he doesn't. I just want to know if he has it and what it was. I'm not
looking for an extrapolation just if the manifold pressure was directly
measured on both cowls.
I need to eliminate all the variables so I can determine why my plane is
slower and hotter after the cowl installation than it was before the cowl
installation.
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: flyv35b
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Are you talking about the AA-5B, Ned?
Gary's cowl (on his plane) uses the stock AA5B induction system and I do
ubt that his cowling had any measurable effect on the induction system
manifold pressure. If you get only 1" hg. MP drop at full throttle on
takeoff vs. atmospheric with the engine not running that is about the
best you can hope for and I think the Tiger system is pretty close to
this. Increasing the pressure above the cylinders by 1" or 2" of H2O
would be unnoticeable on a MP gauge.
Gary's real complaint has been with the efficiency, or lack thereof, of
the AG-5B induction system. See his recent comment below.
=A2 The first step is to fix (i.e., correct) the poorly designed car
b air inlet using as much hardware as is already there. The idea is to
provide something that is simple to install and regains the lost inch
of pressure.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Ned Thomas
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 5:33 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Without starting an argument about the oversimplification of trying to
apply Bernoulili's principle to the airfow in your cowl, let me simply
ask again,
Do you have before and after manifold pressure data comparing manifold
pressure in the cylinder head with the factory cowl and your cowl?
As you know Pressure drop across the cylinders is not even close to an
swering this question
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
On May 3, 2010, at 2:08 PM, teamgrumman@aol.com wrote:
I have slowed the airflow down, Ned. And, thanks to a fellow named
Bernoulli, pressure goes up. I got 1.5 to 2.5 inches more pressure
drop across the cylinders than stock using half the inlet area. Al
l those years in fluid dynamics weren't wasted.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Sun, May 2, 2010 9:23 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Gary,
In all your testing for the Jaguar Cowling did you happen to get bef
ore and after manifold pressure data? If so, for the same conditions
, is the manifold pressure lower with the Jaguar cowl than with the
factory cowl? Seems apparent that you have slowed the airflow over
the cylinders ie dropped the pressure on top of the cylinders.....
Ned
ator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
ibution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co
ntribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
Message 12
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Gary,
I don't know where your coming from at all. I really like your cowl. I
liked following the journey you took to get the cowl to where it is
today. I appreciate your willingness to take on the challenge of getting
it installed on my Tiger.
I don't understand why you are unhappy. I don't understand your math.
You know full well that I paid you $13,665.31 why state otherwise?
Don't you recall flying with me at 152 ktas before the cowl was
installed when I flew a couple hours to help you deliver Martin's plane?
Do you realize that you charged me for the fuel burned in my plane on
that trip? And for the two flights you made with Krytie in my plane. Do
you remember, on your first flight test in my plane, how the engine
burbled after take off over a gorge? And how you left me with a plane
that ran rough? And after I picked the plane up and made that 300nm trip
to Oxnard I found #2 AND #4 top spark plug wires only inserted in the
plugs and the hold downs were not screwed in not even one thread. Guess
what, no more rough engine no more noisy radios after I finished the
plug wire install. Do you remember how you kept changing the deal you
made with me on the cowl? How you ask me how the alternator was wired
because you forgot how you took it apart? Do you remember how you ask
me to get MT propeller to write a letter saying your cowl was okay with
their prop? And how you said you would not be able to sign off on the
337 and I would have to have someone else sign off on it. How you spoke
with my mechanic in Oklahoma about this? Have you forgotten how you
needed $5000 last January in order to have a new cowl built for me but
you ended up using the money on baffles? Gee Gary I could go on but this
should be enough for you to get why I might be a little dissappointed in
you.
Again I'm happy with the cowl. I suppose I just expected a different
Gary. I'm just going to consider that you were not at your best thru
this.
As for the speed increase we expected I will continue working to get it.
It has to be there. So I've cleaned the bugs off the plane and double
waxed it and been tweaking on it since I returned from California last
Thursday. Soon as I can I'll do more flight testing and I'm sure we'll
evently see the results from the cowl that we expected.
ned
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Ned,
You changed the prop and the cowling at the same time. And you're
saying the cowling made the plane slower? Are you serious? I flew the
plane, remember? I also flew along side of you. At 152 TAS, you're at
least 12 knots faster than a stock AG5B.
Ned, you got a hell-of-a-deal on that cowling. $9000 installed. It
shouldn't cost more than $500 to get the outside painted to match. I
painted the inside for you to protect the fiberglass from getting oil
soaked. I exchange, you kept your old cowling and baffles which I
usually keep to recover some of the 50 hours in labor I put into
baffles, fitting, painting and installing the cowling. I could sell
cowlings all day long at $9000 installed if I wanted to go out of
business. As it is, I lost $4,500 on your installation alone.
Ned, I'm sorry you're not happy with the cowling. You haven't been
happy with the whole deal since we started. I've gone out-of-my-way to
accommodate you and the installation on your AG5B, including pissing-off
my DER and DAR. Nothing I've done seems to be good enough for you.
If you're not happy with the cowling, sell it to your buddy there in
OK for $10,000. Make a clean $1000 for your effort. All the hard work
in fitting and trimming is done. You still have your original cowling,
reinstall it. His plane would only need (at the most) to have the
engine mount shims adjusted to align the spinner. I'm fairly certain
he'd be happy with the cowling.
Gary
Message 13
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|
OK, Ned, Let's clarify.
You paid
$8,500 for the cowling.
I also charged you for the things that do not come with the cowling.
$210 for oil cooler hoses because yours were too short to fit the new
baffles.
$38 for a carb inlet duct to convert to the AA5B airbox.
$365 for the hinge assembly for the upper cowling. Not included.
$38 for a stainless steel fuel line to convert to the AA5B airbox.
$36 for SCAT tubing because yours was too short to fit the AA5B airbox
and a reroute for the cowling exit ramps.
------- parts total was $9188.81
$1440 to do the conversion to the AA5B airbox and reroute wires and pressu
re hoses away from the carb inlet duct.
$500 for labor to install the cowling.
$450 for paperwork.
----- total labor was $2390
$540 for engineering approval paperwork.
$400 for DER and DAR. Actual cost was $650.
$179 for fuel since your plane was out of gas.
-------outsourced total was $1119.07 which I kept $0 dollars.
$770 in taxes (which I don't keep, I pass along.)
$197 in misc freight, hardware, grease, cleaners, etc. All at cost. None
of which I make money on.
As for the deposit: Who gives a shit what I do with it as long as you get
your cowling? I had the cowling when you got here. I had it mostly fitt
ed when you got here. The only thing I waited on was hinges (on order whe
n you arrived), baffles, hoses, and the fuel line. Oh, yea, and approval
of the installation. I forced that through because you were in a hurry.
As for the plug wires not being tight, OOPs.
As for the two flights with Clytie, yea, two flights. One was 7 miles to
Georgetown and the other was 8 miles to Lincoln. We flew to Georgetown
for gas, they had none. We flew to Lincoln to show the DER the installat
ion. During each flight, we did some speed runs to see that everything wa
s OK. Mag drop at each run-up was about 75 to 100 rpm. That isn't cause
for alarm. Otherwise, I'd have looked closer to see why. Funny. If I
hadn't flown the plane you'd be pissed that I hadn't done some test fligh
ts. Who pays for fuel for test flights anyway?
As for the wires on the alternator, I've worked on maybe 3 AG5Bs. I'm use
d to wires that only fit one way and seeing numbers on the wires. Apparen
tly, that wasn't a requirement when they made the AG5B. I have the AG5B
service manuals but they are useless. I'm glad you had the wiring diagra
m.
As for the MT prop approval, you have no idea what I went through to get
that approved.
As for flying with you before the Jaguar cowling, yea, I was pretty surpri
sed that a stock Tiger with my cowling was faster than your AG5B. I don't
recall checking TAS. All I remember was throttling back so you could cat
ch up.
As for flying after the install of the Jaguar cowling, we were both about
152 TAS under those conditions.
Ned, I expected differently too.
I sent the baffles and the camloc.
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Tue, May 4, 2010 9:39 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Gary,
I don't know where your coming from at all. I really like your cowl. I lik
ed following the journey you took to get the cowl to where it is today. I
appreciate your willingness to take on the challenge of getting it instal
led on my Tiger.
I don't understand why you are unhappy. I don't understand your math.
You know full well that I paid you $13,665.31 why state otherwise?
Don't you recall flying with me at 152 ktas before the cowl was installed
when I flew a couple hours to help you deliver Martin's plane? Do you rea
lize that you charged me for the fuel burned in my plane on that trip? And
for the two flights you made with Krytie in my plane. Do you remember, on
your first flight test in my plane, how the engine burbled after take off
over a gorge? And how you left me with a plane that ran rough? And after
I picked the plane up and made that 300nm trip to Oxnard I found #2 AND
#4 top spark plug wires only inserted in the plugs and the hold downs wer
e not screwed in not even one thread. Guess what, no more rough engine no
more noisy radios after I finished the plug wire install. Do you remember
how you kept changing the deal you made with me on the cowl? How you ask
me how the alternator was wired because you forgot how you took it apart?
Do you remember how you ask me to get MT propeller to write a letter say
ing your cowl was okay with their prop? And how you said you would not be
able to sign off on the 337 and I would have to have someone else sign of
f on it. How you spoke with my mechanic in Oklahoma about this? Have you
forgotten how you needed $5000 last January in order to have a new cowl
built for me but you ended up using the money on baffles? Gee Gary I coul
d go on but this should be enough for you to get why I might be a little
dissappointed in you.
Again I'm happy with the cowl. I suppose I just expected a different Gary.
I'm just going to consider that you were not at your best thru this.
As for the speed increase we expected I will continue working to get it.
It has to be there. So I've cleaned the bugs off the plane and double wax
ed it and been tweaking on it since I returned from California last Thursd
ay. Soon as I can I'll do more flight testing and I'm sure we'll evently
see the results from the cowl that we expected.
ned
----- Original Message -----
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Ned,
You changed the prop and the cowling at the same time. And you're sayin
g the cowling made the plane slower? Are you serious? I flew the plane
, remember? I also flew along side of you. At 152 TAS, you're at least
12 knots faster than a stock AG5B.
Ned, you got a hell-of-a-deal on that cowling. $9000 installed. It sho
uldn't cost more than $500 to get the outside painted to match. I paint
ed the inside for you to protect the fiberglass from getting oil soaked.
I exchange, you kept your old cowling and baffles which I usually keep
to recover some of the 50 hours in labor I put into baffles, fitting,
painting and installing the cowling. I could sell cowlings all day lon
g at $9000 installed if I wanted to go out of business. As it is, I los
t $4,500 on your installation alone.
Ned, I'm sorry you're not happy with the cowling. You haven't been happ
y with the whole deal since we started. I've gone out-of-my-way to acco
mmodate you and the installation on your AG5B, including pissing-off my
DER and DAR. Nothing I've done seems to be good enough for you.
If you're not happy with the cowling, sell it to your buddy there in OK
for $10,000. Make a clean $1000 for your effort. All the hard work
in fitting and trimming is done. You still have your original cowling,
reinstall it. His plane would only need (at the most) to have the engi
ne mount shims adjusted to align the spinner. I'm fairly certain he'd
be happy with the cowling.
Gary
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