Today's Message Index:
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1. 12:19 PM - Re: Wiring, was Windshield (Scott Trejo)
2. 04:47 PM - Re: Wiring, was Windshield (Gary Vogt)
3. 06:36 PM - Re: DX330 (Gary Vogt)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring, was Windshield |
Gary, I would find out who did the avionics in this plane. That is
crap work. When I had my Garmin stack put in along with my Aspen
EFD1000 " Avionics Unlimited " in KCXO did all the work and they went
above and beyond making sure the wiring was good. Sometimes it cost to
have good work done.
Scott Trejo
N499GT
On Jun 18, 2010, at 8:28 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>
>
> ----- Forwarded Message ----
> From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Fri, June 18, 2010 9:55:12 AM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Wiring, was Windshield
>
> This is the worst I've seen. None of the circuit breakers in the
front were being used. There were, however, a dozen in-line fuses
behind the panel. This is in a Cheetah that got a Garmin stack worth
$20,000. It got all new CBs and wiring.
>
> From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Fri, June 18, 2010 6:13:34 AM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Windshield
>
> That's probably the worst wiring I have ever seen!
>
> Cliff
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gary Vogt
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 12:05 PM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Windshield
>
> It's been one of those weeks. Seems like everyone wants their plane
yesterday, the parts I get are either poorly manufactured, don't fit or
both, the workmanship of some mechanics is appalling, and I am
constantly amazed how plane owners accept 'good enough.'
>
> In 1984, a few days after I bought my first Cheetah (which had been
sitting in the desert sun for 2 years), a 77 Cheetah with 714 TTSN, I
went to the local FBO to find someone to do an annual. I knew nothing
about planes. In the FBO, two A&Ps were installing an O360 into a
Cessna 172. I watched while preformed aluminum parts, included in the
STC, were being bent and deformed to force them to fit. Over the next
hour or so, I watched them forcing parts together that simply did not
fit. Their reasoning was, "the owner will never look under the
cowling." By 1984, I had built 2 hot rods and restored a 69 Corvette
and a 66 Chevy II Super Sport. It was then I decided that I would be
the only one working on my plane. I found a mentor I could trust and
began my tutelage.
>
> I've turned away two potential customers in the last 2 months that
actually asked for me to do half-assed work and just get it signed off.
Their logic: my regular mechanic does it all the time but he's busy
right now. So can you do it?
>
> Windshield: I've heard about installing windshields in the plane.
I've never seen how that could be done. Just getting the windshield
into the coving the windshield needs to be warped a bit. To keep the
bow square with the canopy, it would need to be clamped to the canopy
with 1/4 inch spacers to get the proper gap. That means there would be
no way to clamp the windshield in place. The windshield would need to
be held in place with the mounting screws. That being the case, how is
the proper gap held around the windshield bow? Where does the excess
adhesive go?
>
> Rear windows: Getting the old sealant out sometimes requires sanding
it out. That means there is a whole lot of bare metal on the mounting
surface. Now, two things, either the old sealant is completely removed
by sanding and new strip caulk or RTV is applied on the bare metal, or
strip calk or RTV is applied over the old sealant. When I install rear
windows, I sand out all of the old sealant, alodine, prime, and paint
the mounting surface with Imrom. Then I let it sit for 7 days to
properly cross-link before installing windows.
>
> Canopy windows: I've seen it recommended to use the foam tape on the
canopy windows. There is just no way to install the canopy windows with
foam tape around the perimeter without tearing the foam tape to shreds.
There is a reason the factory used the felt tape: IT ALLOWS THE WINDOW
TO SLIDE INTO PLACE. The canopy windows are designed to leak. They are
designed to leak to the outside.
>
> 1348: cabin prepared for a new headliner
> 1334: typical avionics wiring. Nice huh. The glide slope receiver
was mounted on the bottom of the glare shield.
>
> From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thu, June 17, 2010 5:20:20 AM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Windshield
>
>
> Gary:
>
> What's the apology for? You did not hurt my feelings.
>
> I was once condescended, but now I am convince.
>
> I have not had the time to read and digest your posts, but I will.
> After all I have only done 2 windows and I do respect my elders ;-)
>
> I am impressed with your jig - Working out the size is quite an
> accomplishment. I would have like to have been there as you designed
> and manufactured it.
>
> Anyway, whos feeling did you think you hurt? Hell, let them grow some
> thicker skin.
>
> Barry
> "Chop'd Liver"
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> > Sorry I got so condescending about windshield. No excuse.
> > By my count, I've installed 43 windshields since 1984. I've made a
lot of
> > mistakes and learned a lot of 'tricks' to getting the windshield
square with
> > the bow and getting the correct thickness of RTV.
> > I built my jig in 1984 in an attempt to simulate the location and
shape of
> > the windshield as installed. At the time, I was trying too imagine
how they
> > were done at the factory. I figured they had some sort of jig to
put the
> > windshield on the bow. The jig has gone through 2 revisions.
mostly to
> > provide better access to the underside. The version I have now
guarantees
> > an absolutely flat windshield bow to which the windshield is bonded.
I have
> > a set of blocks of wood to put under the forward edge of the
windshield.
> > These blocks locate and lock the forward edge such that when the
windshield
> > is set into position, it always falls on the same position at the
windshield
> > bow edge. The jig has dowels that locate the holes to be drilled at
the
> > lower corners. Before the holes are drilled, I tape a strip of .020
> > aluminum to the bow to simulate the thickness of the RTV when
installed.
> > The holes in the lower corners are drilled with the windshield in
its final
> > location. With those holes drilled, the windshield can be
positioned and
> > the two holes on top drilled. It's at this point that I use a
feeler gauge
> > the determine the gap between the windshield and bow. Where it's
too tight
> > (meaning: places where the forward edge of the windshield bow would
project
> > into the RTV making the RTV too thin, <.020, in that area), I mark
the
> > windshield so that any clamps in that area are not over tightened.
I use
> > two types of shims to space the windshield from the bow and maintain
the
> > spacing during assembly.
> > Shims I've tried:
> > (1) self sticking foam that compresses to approx .025 inches. I
punched
> > out dots using a hole punch. It worked, but left the dots showing.
I did
> > one like this.
> > (2) .020 safety wire clips at the forward edge of the bow. It
worked, but
> > left little holes when I removed the clips. The holes couldn't be
filled
> > with RV. I did two like this.
> > (3) I made a spacer, .050 thick, the shape of the windshield bow,
attached
> > to the bow through the holes used to hold the double bow seal on,
that stuck
> > up .030 above the aft edge of the bow (same surface the seal uses).
> > The idea here was to hold the windshield .030 away from the
bow
> > uniformly from one corner to the other. At first, this sounded like
a great
> > idea (it wouldn't work with an LP Aero windshield because
> > there is no lip at the bow). The biggest problem was: the
bows are
> > not all the same shape. I used this for 4 or 5 windshields before
it became
> > obvious this was not practical. I kept filing and adjusting the
shape to
> > get them to fit.
> > (4) Then, I made little "L" shaped shims that can be placed under
the aft
> > edge of the windshield between the bow and windshield. The long
side is
> > flush with the windshield bow face.
> > The long side is 1 inch long and is .063 inches thick. The
short side
> > is .050 inches long and several thicknesses. I have 10 sets in
sizes
> > from .025 to .040 inches.
> > These work pretty well. At first, I clamped them into place.
Then,
> > screws through the holes that hold the double bead seal to the
windshield
> > bow. Then tape. All work pretty well.
> > The gap can be filled with RTV after the shim is removed.
> > (5) My favorite is just too simple to believe. Again, using the
holes that
> > attach the double bead seal to the windshield bow, I use a #6 screw
onto
> > which I put a wide area #10 washer plus a wide area 5/16 washer.
> > I'd use just the wide area 5/16 washer but the hole is too
big; the
> > #6 screw won't hold it by itself. With the windshield in place, I
can
> > adjust the gap between the bow and windshield with the washers
tightened
> > against the bow.
> > When bonding, I tighten the clamps, located at the shims,
until the
> > washer just shows through the RTV and just touches the windshield.
(NA
> > for LP Aero windshields)
> > After the RTV is applied to the windshield bonding area, the
windshield can
> > then be set into place and located over the dowels on the bottom
corners,
> > the holes line up on top for the top two screws and special washers.
Clamps
> > are applied until I get either the "L" shim showing on the edge of
the
> > windshield or the washer showing through the windshield. At this
point, I
> > know the gap at the forward edge of the bow is about .020 inches.
The gap
> > is kept as uniform as possible. After it's all done being bonded, I
let the
> > windshield sit for a week before moving it. The maintenance manual
says 3
> > days but I've found the RTV to not be totally cured at 3 days.
> > The windshield in the $80,000 Cheetah was done in 2003 when John
Rodgers
> > owned the plane. It has always been parked outside. It's a
C.Bailey
> > windshield. The bond is still like new.
> > I've attached
>
>
>
>
>
> <PICT0442.JPG><PICT0443.JPG><PICT0446.JPG>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring, was Windshield |
I did a complete Garmin install in a customers plane. I called and asked a friend
of mine who has his own avionics shop and asked how many hours he'd charge.
He said, it's 40 to 50 hours for the complete install after the trays were
all wired and ready to install. So, I had him wire up the stack and I charged
45 hours to install. It actually took me closer to 60. The customer was pissed
off that it cost so much 'just to install.' I mean, "all you had to do was
put it in and hook up power and ground." That customer never cam back. I
should have charged 60 hours.
________________________________
From: Scott Trejo <md11strejo@YAHOO.COM>
Sent: Sat, June 19, 2010 12:18:03 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Wiring, was Windshield
Gary, I would find out who did the avionics in this plane. That is crap work.
When I had my Garmin stack put in along with my Aspen EFD1000 " Avionics Unlimited
" in KCXO did all the work and they went above and beyond making sure
the wiring was good. Sometimes it cost to have good work done.
Scott Trejo
N499GT
On Jun 18, 2010, at 8:28 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>
>
>----- Forwarded Message ----
>From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Fri, June 18, 2010 9:55:12 AM
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Wiring, was Windshield
>
>
>This is the worst I've seen. None of the circuit breakers in the front were being
used. There were, however, a dozen in-line fuses behind the panel. This
is in a Cheetah that got a Garmin stack worth $20,000. It got all new CBs and
wiring.
>
>
________________________________
From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Fri, June 18, 2010 6:13:34 AM
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Windshield
>
>
>That's probably the worst wiring I have ever seen!
>
>Cliff
>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Gary Vogt
>>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>>Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 12:05 PM
>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Windshield
>>
>>
>>It's been one of those weeks. Seems like everyone wants their plane yesterday,
the parts I get are either poorly manufactured, don't fit or both, the workmanship
of some mechanics is appalling, and I am constantly amazed how plane owners
accept 'good enough.'
>>
>>
>>In 1984, a few days after I bought my first Cheetah (which had been sitting in
the desert sun for 2 years), a 77 Cheetah with 714 TTSN, I went to the local
FBO to find someone to do an annual. I knew nothing about planes. In the FBO,
two A&Ps were installing an O360 into a Cessna 172. I watched while preformed
aluminum parts, included in the STC, were being bent and deformed to force
them to fit. Over the next hour or so, I watched them forcing parts together
that simply did not fit. Their reasoning was, "the owner will never look under
the cowling." By 1984, I had built 2 hot rods and restored a 69 Corvette and
a 66 Chevy II Super Sport. It was then I decided that I would be the only
one working on my plane. I found a mentor I could trust and began my tutelage.
>>
>>
>>I've turned away two potential customers in the last 2 months that actually asked
for me to do half-assed work and just get it signed off. Their logic: my
regular mechanic does it all the time but he's busy right now. So can you do
it?
>>
>>
>>Windshield: I've heard about installing windshields in the plane. I've never
seen how that could be done. Just getting the windshield into the coving the
windshield needs to be warped a bit. To keep the bow square with the canopy,
it would need to be clamped to the canopy with 1/4 inch spacers to get the proper
gap. That means there would be no way to clamp the windshield in place.
The windshield would need to be held in place with the mounting screws. That
being the case, how is the proper gap held around the windshield bow? Where
does the excess adhesive go?
>>
>>
>>Rear windows: Getting the old sealant out sometimes requires sanding it out.
That means there is a whole lot of bare metal on the mounting surface. Now,
two things, either the old sealant is completely removed by sanding and new strip
caulk or RTV is applied on the bare metal, or strip calk or RTV is applied
over the old sealant. When I install rear windows, I sand out all of the old
sealant, alodine, prime, and paint the mounting surface with Imrom. Then I
let it sit for 7 days to properly cross-link before installing windows.
>>
>>
>>Canopy windows: I've seen it recommended to use the foam tape on the canopy
windows. There is just no way to install the canopy windows with foam tape around
the perimeter without tearing the foam tape to shreds. There is a reason
the factory used the felt tape: IT ALLOWS THE WINDOW TO SLIDE INTO PLACE. The
canopy windows are designed to leak. They are designed to leak to the outside.
>>
>>
>>1348: cabin prepared for a new headliner
>>1334: typical avionics wiring. Nice huh. The glide slope receiver was mounted
on the bottom of the glare shield.
>>
>>
>>
________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>
>>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>>Sent: Thu, June 17, 2010 5:20:20 AM
>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Windshield
>>
>>
>>Gary:
>>
>>What's the apology for? You did not hurt my feelings.
>>
>>I was once condescended, but now I am convince.
>>
>>I have not had the time to read and digest your posts, but I will.
>>After all I have only done 2 windows and I do respect my elders ;-)
>>
>>I am impressed with your jig - Working out the size is quite an
>>accomplishment. I would have like to have been there as you designed
>>and manufactured it.
>>
>>Anyway, whos feeling did you think you hurt? Hell, let them grow some
>>thicker skin.
>>
>>Barry
>>"Chop'd Liver"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Sorry I got so condescending about windshield. No excuse.
>>> By my count, I've installed 43 windshields since 1984. I've made a lot of
>>> mistakes and learned a lot of 'tricks' to getting the windshield square with
>>> the bow and getting the correct thickness of RTV.
>>> I built my jig in 1984 in an attempt to simulate the location and shape of
>>> the windshield as installed. At the time, I was trying too imagine how they
>>> were done at the factory. I figured they had some sort of jig to put the
>>> windshield on the bow. The jig has gone through 2 revisions. mostly to
>>> provide better access to the underside. The version I have now guarantees
>>> an absolutely flat windshield bow to which the windshield is bonded. I have
>>> a set of blocks of wood to put under the forward edge of the windshield.
>>> These blocks locate and lock the forward edge such that when the windshield
>>> is set into position, it always falls on the same position at the windshield
>>> bow edge. The jig has dowels that locate the holes to be drilled at the
>>> lower corners. Before the holes are drilled, I tape a strip of .020
>>> aluminum to the bow to simulate the thickness of the RTV when installed.
>>> The holes in the lower corners are drilled with the windshield in its final
>>> location. With those holes drilled, the windshield can be positioned and
>>> the two holes on top drilled. It's at this point that I use a feeler gauge
>>> the determine the gap between the windshield and bow. Where it's too tight
>>> (meaning: places where the forward edge of the windshield bow would project
>>> into the RTV making the RTV too thin, <.020, in that area), I mark the
>>> windshield so that any clamps in that area are not over tightened. I use
>>> two types of shims to space the windshield from the bow and maintain the
>>> spacing during assembly.
>>> Shims I've tried:
>>> (1) self sticking foam that compresses to approx .025 inches. I punched
>>> out dots using a hole punch. It worked, but left the dots showing. I did
>>> one like this.
>>> (2) .020 safety wire clips at the forward edge of the bow. It worked, but
>>> left little holes when I removed the clips. The holes couldn't be filled
>>> with RV. I did two like this.
>>> (3) I made a spacer, .050 thick, the shape of the windshield bow, attached
>>> to the bow through the holes used to hold the double bow seal on, that stuck
>>> up .030 above the aft edge of the bow (same surface the seal uses).
>>> The idea here was to hold the windshield .030 away from the bow
>>> uniformly from one corner to the other. At first, this sounded like a great
>>> idea (it wouldn't work with an LP Aero windshield because
>>> there is no lip at the bow). The biggest problem was: the bows are
>>> not all the same shape. I used this for 4 or 5 windshields before it became
>>> obvious this was not practical. I kept filing and adjusting the shape to
>>> get them to fit.
>>> (4) Then, I made little "L" shaped shims that can be placed under the aft
>>> edge of the windshield between the bow and windshield. The long side is
>>> flush with the windshield bow face.
>>> The long side is 1 inch long and is .063 inches thick. The short side
>>> is .050 inches long and several thicknesses. I have 10 sets in sizes
>>> from .025 to .040 inches.
>>> These work pretty well. At first, I clamped them into place. Then,
>>> screws through the holes that hold the double bead seal to the windshield
>>> bow. Then tape. All work pretty well.
>>> The gap can be filled with RTV after the shim is removed.
>>> (5) My favorite is just too simple to believe. Again, using the holes that
>>> attach the double bead seal to the windshield bow, I use a #6 screw onto
>>> which I put a wide area #10 washer plus a wide area 5/16 washer.
>>> I'd use just the wide area 5/16 washer but the hole is too big; the
>>> #6 screw won't hold it by itself. With the windshield in place, I can
>>> adjust the gap between the bow and windshield with the washers tightened
>>> against the bow.
>>> When bonding, I tighten the clamps, located at the shims, until the
>>> washer just shows through the RTV and just touches the windshield. (NA
>>> for LP Aero windshields)
>>> After the RTV is applied to the windshield bonding area, the windshield can
>>> then be set into place and located over the dowels on the bottom corners,
>>> the holes line up on top for the top two screws and special washers. Clamps
>>> are applied until I get either the "L" shim showing on the edge of the
>>> windshield or the washer showing through the windshield. At this point, I
>>> know the gap at the forward edge of the bow is about .020 inches. The gap
>>> is kept as uniform as possible. After it's all done being bonded, I let the
>>> windshield sit for a week before moving it. The maintenance manual says 3
>>> days but I've found the RTV to not be totally cured at 3 days.
>>> The windshield in the $80,000 Cheetah was done in 2003 when John Rodgers
>>> owned the plane. It has always been parked outside. It's a C.Bailey
>>> windshield. The bond is still like new.
>>> I've attached
>
>
>
><PICT0442.JPG><PICT0443.JPG><PICT0446.JPG>
Message 3
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You're right, of course. I should get a gallon or two of the cheaper stuff. Most
of the time I use it to clean stuff that isn't that critical.
I first used DX330 about 30 years ago. I worked for a painter that was as obsessive
compulsive as me.
________________________________
From: "Diksum@wmconnect.com" <Diksum@wmconnect.com>
Sent: Tue, June 15, 2010 10:17:40 AM
Subject: DX330
Hello Gary:
You wrote "DX330 is a very high grade Naptha. It's used to clean surfaces
prior to painting. I also use it in the fuel tanks prior to resealing.
It's quite expensive.".
I recent addressed this on the GG; I wrote about using Coleman Camp Fuel
as a degreaser and solvent. It is naptha, less than $10 at WalMart by the
gallon. I've used it for twenty years with no problems.
Dick Sumner
6248L
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