Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:00 AM - Re: Wiring, was Windshield (FLYaDIVE)
2. 10:23 AM - Happy Father's Day you muthas (Gary Vogt)
3. 11:31 AM - Re: Happy Father's Day you muthas (Ronald Millman CPA)
4. 06:20 PM - Re: Happy Father's Day you muthas (Gary Vogt)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring, was Windshield |
Gary:
Business is funny. And the only thing more unusual than business is
the customer.
I lost a job because I charged too little. A Grumman owner with an
AA-1 had a small fuel leak. I gave him a base price of $175 for
travel and repair time. He went to a NON Grumman shop and they pulled
the wing to replace the small rubber line and charged him $2000.
Maybe to the shop it was a P.I.T.A. job because they did not know
about the hose.
Well, now they do at the customer's expense. My loss too when you
consider the loss of revenue.
But that wiring was a real rats nest. Bet it was that way right from
the beginning... The customer's procedure would be:
~ Get a quote
~ Quote too high
~ Go to another shop
~ Quote low
~ Go with low quote
~ Low quote also accompanied by low workmanship.
~ Customer happy
~ This continues for a long time until ALL quotes are high because
working on plane is working in a rats nest
~ Customer pays for High Priced Job and does not come back.
~ Customer needs more work done down the road and goes to another shop
~ Other shop looks at the wiring and THINKS this is going to be
EASY--- Nice laied out panel.
Another title for this story could be : How to make the other shop look good.
Barry
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I did a complete Garmin install in a customers plane. I called and asked a
> friend of mine who has his own avionics shop and asked how many hours he'd
> charge. He said, it's 40 to 50 hours for the complete install after the
> trays were all wired and ready to install. So, I had him wire up the stack
> and I charged 45 hours to install. It actually took me closer to 60. The
> customer was pissed off that it cost so much 'just to install.' I mean,
> "all you had to do was put it in and hook up power and ground." That
> customer never cam back. I should have charged 60 hours.
> ________________________________
> From: Scott Trejo <md11strejo@YAHOO.COM>
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sat, June 19, 2010 12:18:03 PM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Wiring, was Windshield
>
> Gary, I would find out who did the avionics in this plane. That is crap
> work. When I had my Garmin stack put in along with my Aspen EFD1000 "
> Avionics Unlimited " in KCXO did all the work and they went above and beyond
> making sure the wiring was good. Sometimes it cost to have good work done.
>
> Scott Trejo
> N499GT
> On Jun 18, 2010, at 8:28 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>
>
> ----- Forwarded Message ----
> From:Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
> To:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent:Fri, June 18, 2010 9:55:12 AM
> Subject:Re: TeamGrumman-List: Wiring, was Windshield
>
> This is the worst I've seen. None of the circuit breakers in the front were
> being used. There were, however, a dozen in-line fuses behind the panel.
> This is in a Cheetah that got a Garmin stack worth $20,000. It got all new
> CBs and wiring.
> ________________________________
> From:flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
> To:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent:Fri, June 18, 2010 6:13:34 AM
> Subject:Re: TeamGrumman-List: Windshield
>
> That's probably the worst wiring I have ever seen!
>
> Cliff
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:Gary Vogt
> To:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent:Thursday, June 17, 2010 12:05 PM
> Subject:Re: TeamGrumman-List: Windshield
> It's been one of those weeks. Seems like everyone wants their plane
> yesterday, the parts I get are either poorly manufactured, don't fit or
> both, the workmanship of some mechanics is appalling, and I am constantly
> amazed how plane owners accept 'good enough.'
> In 1984, a few days after I bought my first Cheetah (which had been sitting
> in the desert sun for 2 years), a 77 Cheetah with 714 TTSN, I went to the
> local FBO to find someone to do an annual. I knew nothing about planes. In
> the FBO, two A&Ps were installing an O360 into a Cessna 172. I watched
> while preformed aluminum parts, included in the STC, were being bent and
> deformed to force them to fit. Over the next hour or so, I watched them
> forcing parts together that simply did not fit. Their reasoning was, "the
> owner will never look under the cowling." By 1984, I had built 2 hot rods
> and restored a 69 Corvette and a 66 Chevy II Super Sport. It was then I
> decided that I would be the only one working on my plane. I found a mentor
> I could trust and began my tutelage.
> I've turned away two potential customers in the last 2 months that actually
> asked for me to do half-assed work and just get it signed off. Their logic:
> my regular mechanic does it all the time but he's busy right now. So can
> you do it?
> Windshield: I've heard about installing windshields in the plane. I've
> never seen how that could be done. Just getting the windshield into the
> coving the windshield needs to be warped a bit. To keep the bow square with
> the canopy, it would need to be clamped to the canopy with 1/4 inch spacers
> to get the proper gap. That means there would be no way to clamp the
> windshield in place. The windshield would need to be held in place with the
> mounting screws. That being the case, how is the proper gap held around the
> windshield bow? Where does the excess adhesive go?
> Rear windows: Getting the old sealant out sometimes requires sanding it
> out. That means there is a whole lot of bare metal on the mounting surface.
> Now, two things, either the old sealant is completely removed by sanding
> and new strip caulk or RTV is applied on the bare metal, or strip calk or
> RTV is applied over the old sealant. When I install rear windows, I sand
> out all of the old sealant, alodine, prime, and paint the mounting surface
> with Imrom. Then I let it sit for 7 days to properly cross-link before
> installing windows.
> Canopy windows: I've seen it recommended to use the foam tape on the canopy
> windows. There is just no way to install the canopy windows with foam tape
> around the perimeter without tearing the foam tape to shreds. There is a
> reason the factory used the felt tape: IT ALLOWS THE WINDOW TO SLIDE INTO
> PLACE. The canopy windows are designed to leak. They are designed to leak
> to the outside.
> 1348: cabin prepared for a new headliner
> 1334: typical avionics wiring. Nice huh. The glide slope receiver was
> mounted on the bottom of the glare shield.
> ________________________________
> From:FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>
> To:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent:Thu, June 17, 2010 5:20:20 AM
> Subject:Re: TeamGrumman-List: Windshield
>
>
> Gary:
>
> What's the apology for? You did not hurt my feelings.
>
> I was once condescended, but now I am convince.
>
> I have not had the time to read and digest your posts, but I will.
> After all I have only done 2 windows and I do respect my elders ;-)
>
> I am impressed with your jig - Working out the size is quite an
> accomplishment. I would have like to have been there as you designed
> and manufactured it.
>
> Anyway, whos feeling did you think you hurt? Hell, let them grow some
> thicker skin.
>
> Barry
> "Chop'd Liver"
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Sorry I got so condescending about windshield. No excuse.
>> By my count, I've installed 43 windshields since 1984. I've made a lot of
>> mistakes and learned a lot of 'tricks' to getting the windshield square
>> with
>> the bow and getting the correct thickness of RTV.
>> I built my jig in 1984 in an attempt to simulate the location and shape of
>> the windshield as installed. At the time, I was trying too imagine how
>> they
>> were done at the factory. I figured they had some sort of jig to put the
>> windshield on the bow. The jig has gone through 2 revisions. mostly to
>> provide better access to the underside. The version I have now guarantees
>> an absolutely flat windshield bow to which the windshield is bonded. I
>> have
>> a set of blocks of wood to put under the forward edge of the windshield.
>> These blocks locate and lock the forward edge such that when the
>> windshield
>> is set into position, it always falls on the same position at the
>> windshield
>> bow edge. The jig has dowels that locate the holes to be drilled at the
>> lower corners. Before the holes are drilled, I tape a strip of .020
>> aluminum to the bow to simulate the thickness of the RTV when installed.
>> The holes in the lower corners are drilled with the windshield in its
>> final
>> location. With those holes drilled, the windshield can be positioned and
>> the two holes on top drilled. It's at this point that I use a feeler
>> gauge
>> the determine the gap between the windshield and bow. Where it's too
>> tight
>> (meaning: places where the forward edge of the windshield bow would
>> project
>> into the RTV making the RTV too thin, <.020, in that area), I mark the
>> windshield so that any clamps in that area are not over tightened. I use
>> two types of shims to space the windshield from the bow and maintain the
>> spacing during assembly.
>> Shims I've tried:
>> (1) self sticking foam that compresses to approx .025 inches. I punched
>> out dots using a hole punch. It worked, but left the dots showing. I did
>> one like this.
>> (2) .020 safety wire clips at the forward edge of the bow. It worked,
>> but
>> left little holes when I removed the clips. The holes couldn't be filled
>> with RV. I did two like this.
>> (3) I made a spacer, .050 thick, the shape of the windshield bow,
>> attached
>> to the bow through the holes used to hold the double bow seal on, that
>> stuck
>> up .030 above the aft edge of the bow (same surface the seal uses).
>> The idea here was to hold the windshield .030 away from the bow
>> uniformly from one corner to the other. At first, this sounded like a
>> great
>> idea (it wouldn't work with an LP Aero windshield because
>> there is no lip at the bow). The biggest problem was: the bows are
>> not all the same shape. I used this for 4 or 5 windshields before it
>> became
>> obvious this was not practical. I kept filing and adjusting the shape to
>> get them to fit.
>> (4) Then, I made little "L" shaped shims that can be placed under the aft
>> edge of the windshield between the bow and windshield. The long side is
>> flush with the windshield bow face.
>> The long side is 1 inch long and is .063 inches thick. The short
>> side
>> is .050 inches long and several thicknesses. I have 10 sets in sizes
>> from.025 to .040 inches.
>> These work pretty well. At first, I clamped them into place. Then,
>> screws through the holes that hold the double bead seal to the windshield
>> bow. Then tape. All work pretty well.
>> The gap can be filled with RTV after the shim is removed.
>> (5) My favorite is just too simple to believe. Again, using the holes
>> that
>> attach the double bead seal to the windshield bow, I use a #6 screw onto
>> which I put a wide area #10 washer plus a wide area 5/16 washer.
>> I'd use just the wide area 5/16 washer but the hole is too big;
>> the
>> #6 screw won't hold it by itself. With the windshield in place, I can
>> adjust the gap between the bow and windshield with the washers tightened
>> against the bow.
>> When bonding, I tighten the clamps, located at the shims, until the
>> washer just shows through the RTV and just touches the windshield. (NA
>> for LP Aero windshields)
>> After the RTV is applied to the windshield bonding area, the windshield
>> can
>> then be set into place and located over the dowels on the bottom corners,
>> the holes line up on top for the top two screws and special washers.
>> Clamps
>> are applied until I get either the "L" shim showing on the edge of the
>> windshield or the washer showing through the windshield. At this point, I
>> know the gap at the forward edge of the bow is about .020 inches. The gap
>> is kept as uniform as possible. After it's all done being bonded, I let
>> the
>> windshield sit for a week before moving it. The maintenance manual says 3
>> days but I've found the RTV to not be totally cured at 3 days.
>> The windshield in the $80,000 Cheetah was done in 2003 when John Rodgers
>> owned the plane. It has always been parked outside. It's a C.Bailey
>> windshield. The bond is still like new.
>> I've attached
>
>
> <PICT0442.JPG><PICT0443.JPG><PICT0446.JPG>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Happy Father's Day you muthas |
I'd like you to meet my Granddaughter, Breanne, and my Great granddaughter, Audrey.
Audrey is 4 years old.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Happy Father's Day you muthas |
Happy Father's Day to you Gary.
And Keep Them flying!
Ron.
p.s. my engine mount is in my den, freshly painted,
and the spinner is freshly polished there also.
The engine O360A4K is in the shop for it's first
rebuild, after 33 years of great service.
The cause after 1,860 hours was one valve,
and a little pitting on the cam. The engine
still ran great, but the compression was way
down in #4.
Ron.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Vogt<mailto:teamgrumman@YAHOO.COM>
To: Teamgrumman List<mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 10:16 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Happy Father's Day you muthas
I'd like you to meet my Granddaughter, Breanne, and my Great
granddaughter, Audrey. Audrey is 4 years old.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Happy Father's Day you muthas |
send pics
________________________________
From: Ronald Millman CPA <ronmillmancpa@msn.com>
Sent: Sun, June 20, 2010 11:26:13 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Happy Father's Day you muthas
Happy Father's Day to you Gary.
And Keep Them flying!
Ron.
p.s. my engine mount is in my den, freshly painted,
and the spinner is freshly polished there also.
The engine O360A4K is in the shop for it's first
rebuild, after 33 years of great service.
The cause after 1,860 hours was one valve,
and a little pitting on the cam. The engine
still ran great, but the compression was way
down in #4.
Ron.
----- Original Message -----
>From: Gary
> Vogt
>To: Teamgrumman List
>Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 10:16
>AM
>Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Happy Father's
> Day you muthas
>
>
>I'd like you to meet my Granddaughter, Breanne, and my Great
> granddaughter, Audrey. Audrey is 4 years old.
>
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