Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:32 AM - Re: Cost of annual (Garner Rice)
2. 10:32 AM - Re: Cost of annual (Hosler, John)
3. 10:35 AM - Re: Cost of annual (Gary Vogt)
4. 10:58 AM - FW: Cost of annual (Tom Quinn)
5. 11:03 AM - Re: Cost of annual (Steve Tyer)
6. 12:03 PM - Re: Cost of annual (Gary Vogt)
7. 12:59 PM - Re: Cost of annual (WILLIAM KELLY)
8. 01:19 PM - Re: Cost of annual (Linn Walters)
9. 01:39 PM - Re: Cost of annual (Linn Walters)
10. 01:48 PM - Re: Cost of annual ()
11. 02:36 PM - Re: Cost of annual (Scott Trejo)
12. 03:33 PM - Re: Cost of annual (Garner Rice)
13. 03:41 PM - Re: Cost of annual (Linn Walters)
14. 04:20 PM - Re: Cost of annual (Garner Rice)
15. 04:32 PM - Re: Cost of annual (Deems Herring)
16. 04:42 PM - Re: Cost of annual (Garner Rice)
17. 07:41 PM - Re: Cost of annual ()
Message 1
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I dont think the issue is the cost of the annual as so much as the quality
of the annual. These aircraft that we all have are the same old planes and
still have to be annualed the same old way. If someone is doing the annual
in 6 or 8 hours=2C then there is some skipping or overlooking going on. Su
re the plane is airworthy=2C it flew in=2C so it must be flyable right? Its
kind of like a medical=2C when the doctor listens to your heartbeat and sa
ys=2C "Yep you are still alive." as opposed to having a MRI and knowing you
have some real problems. I dont care if the annual is done in an emaculant
shop=2C out of a pickup truck=2C owner assist=2C or what ever. The man hou
rs should be the determining factor. A large shop has overhead that the AI
out of the pick up does not. I hear it all from this end where there are so
me that bragg that they have never paid more than 150.00 for an annual and
some that have paid several thousands of dollars. In my opinion=2C they are
both getting ripped off. An inspection is just that and should be nothing
more. I know of shops that take it upon themselves to do things because "t
hey" don't like it. Its your plane=2C its your money=2C not the shops. It
ultimately your call as the owner/pilot to determing the airworthiness befo
re you "clear prop"
Garner
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Based in Statesville. That's where I have my annuals done.
________________________________
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
Curry
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 9:32 PM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Cost of annual
John,
You're paying WAY too much. Where in NC do you live?
Don
Cary, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Hosler, John
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 9:23 PM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Cost of annual
All:
Just as calibration (or maybe I need to be) my last 2 annuals here in
North Carolina cost approximately $2800 each for a Tiger.
No big ticket items.
Are things better in California? Maybe I'll move back.
John
________________________________
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Pollack
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cost of annual
Gary, my last couple of annuals were at Torrence airport (13.9 miles).
He charges $650 plus parts. He includes relining brakes and even
installed a new exhaust system in that flat price. It took one day to
complete.
Auburn is 322.3 miles each way with hotel, car rental, meals, etc. I
think you can understand why I have a standard annual done locally.
Rick
On Jun 21, 2010, at 10:37 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:
Just curious. I've had two customers in the last 6 months decide they
could get their annual done cheaper elsewhere. One customer tells me he
can get an annual done for $300; $30/hr for 10 hours. Of course, the
guy works out of his truck. The other customer is 3 hours away and I
can understand wanting to avoid the extra costs.
Questions:
How much are you charging per hour for an annual inspection?
If you are paying for your annuals, how much per hour are you being
charged?
Is your annual a fixed cost?
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m
a
tronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
o
ntribution
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| Subject: | Re: Cost of annual |
Those are some pretty cheap annuals. Linn, I think he said "He charges me $300
for 10 hours of inspection time." My Pre-Purchase inspection runs $450.
When I started AuCountry Aviation in 1997, I was charging $50 an hour. At the
time, the local avionics shop was $50/hr.
I use a 14 page checklist that keeps 5 years of inspections in view. I can tell
you when and why a wire was changed, a light was changed, how many hours on
the brakes at each annual, when the last fuel selector valve overhaul was done
last, notes as to serial numbers on major parts, times on mags, vacuum pumps,
and hundreds of other items, all at a glance. When I get a plane for the first
time, I may spend up to 6 hours going through the logs verifying dates and
times. The data on my annuals is about as correct as can be made. I've seen
logbooks so fucked up that the plane actually had over 200 hrs less than what
showed due to transposing numbers. If I'm doing a plane for the first time, it
takes about 24 hours to thoroughly go through the plane; I charge for 18 hrs.
I make it up over the next few years since I now know the plane.
Maybe no one really gives a shit that all that information is tracked and readily
available at a glance. I mean, really, just how important is it to be able
to look at just two pages and see 10 years worth of compression tests to look
for trends? Based on a few of the logbooks I've reviewed, some don't even show
compression checks (10 years of annuals with no compression checks).
I raised my rates in 1999 to $60/hr (following the avionics shops rates). I went
to $75/hr in 2001 (again following his rates). Then to $85/hr in 2003; all
the time, I had 8 planes in progress. $90/hr in 2005. Returning customers
were getting a 20% break on their bill. Last year I went to a flat rate of $1500
for the annual. My annuals typically take 16 to 18 hours.
After reading what I just wrote, it occurred to me that I'm doing this whole maintenance
thing wrong. I've been treating these planes like they were my own.
I've been treating these planes as if the owners were involved and concerned
about the quality of maintenance. Perhaps if I just expanded my Pre-Purchase
inspection a bit I could use it for annuals. I could easily do a basic annual
in 8 hours for $650. Why bother with details like how many hours there are
on vacuum filters and rudder springs or repacking wheel bearings every other year?
Owner assisted annuals: I charge for the hours I spend working on the plane.
Some owners think standing around and asking, "Why are you doing that?" constitutes
owner assisting. An owner assisted annual that uses up 24 hours of my time
gets charged for 24 hours. At the other end of the spectrum is Bobby: He
maintains his plane throughout the year. When he brings his plane in for an
owner assisted annual, the wheel pants are off, the seats (except pilot's) are
out, and the oil is changed. His annuals take less than 8 hours and we go though
the whole plane.
The 'other' maintenance shop here in Auburn charges $120/hr. Bob, Cliff, Garner,
what do you charge per hour?
Thanks for your input, Team.
________________________________
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Garner,
You bring up a good point. Is there a AA5 Annual checklist
that is available that we can hand to the AP to ensure he's checking
everything? My AP states that he has Grumman experience and my annual (my
first actually) was $750. I'd rather pay a few more dollars to make sure
it's done right.
Tom Quinn
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garner
Rice
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 8:15 AM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Cost of annual
I dont think the issue is the cost of the annual as so much as the quality
of the annual. These aircraft that we all have are the same old planes and
still have to be annualed the same old way. If someone is doing the annual
in 6 or 8 hours, then there is some skipping or overlooking going on. Sure
the plane is airworthy, it flew in, so it must be flyable right? Its kind of
like a medical, when the doctor listens to your heartbeat and says, "Yep you
are still alive." as opposed to having a MRI and knowing you have some real
problems. I dont care if the annual is done in an emaculant shop, out of a
pickup truck, owner assist, or what ever. The man hours should be the
determining factor. A large shop has overhead that the AI out of the pick up
does not. I hear it all from this end where there are some that bragg that
they have never paid more than 150.00 for an annual and some that have paid
several thousands of dollars. In my opinion, they are both getting ripped
off. An inspection is just that and should be nothing more. I know of shops
that take it upon themselves to do things because "they" don't like it.
Its your plane, its your money, not the shops. It ultimately your call as
the owner/pilot to determing the airworthiness before you "clear prop"
Garner
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| Subject: | Re: Cost of annual |
Just had my annual finished. Dropped it off the last week Of January
and got it back last week. He worked on it part time. He charged a
flat rate of $300.00. Other Items that needed attention was charged
30.00 hr. I supplied the parts. This was my first annual on the plane.
Exhaust and other things needed to be replaced. It ended up being 42
hrs labor, $1900.00 total including the flat rate. With parts added
in, my annual was around $4500.00.
I wished I lived closer to Gary. I would gladly have let him work on
my plane. It would have went alot smoother if my mech knew something
about Grummans. He cut his teeth on mine. Thanks to David and Garner
at Fletch Air. They really helped steer my mech in the right
direction. They were gracious and didn't ask anything in return. I did
buy all my parts from them. I appreciate them going the extra mile.
Next year I will be going with someone different who has better
time management skills and a knowledge of Grummans. Remember, you get
what you pay for.
Steve Tyer
214-883-0099
On Jun 21, 2010, at 12:37 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Just curious. I've had two customers in the last 6 months decide
> they could get their annual done cheaper elsewhere. One customer
> tells me he can get an annual done for $300; $30/hr for 10 hours.
> Of course, the guy works out of his truck. The other customer is 3
> hours away and I can understand wanting to avoid the extra costs.
>
> Questions:
>
> How much are you charging per hour for an annual inspection?
>
> If you are paying for your annuals, how much per hour are you being
> charged?
>
> Is your annual a fixed cost?
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Cost of annual |
Very Good. You're right. It is the owner's call. I could offer something like
different levels of inspection. For 8 hours you get this checked, for 12 hours
you get this checked, . . .
My Pre-Purchase inspection covers all of the same items as my inspection checklist
without going into so much detail. For example, I only pull the rear wing
access covers adjacent to the fuel tank to look for leaks. The cowling doesn't
come off unless I suspect something. What it does cover is how much everything
is going to cost to fix.
I have attached two pages of a Pre-buy I did. I was giving Fletchair the benefit
of the doubt when I picked the number of hours to fix. I really don't have
any idea how much it would cost to fix the fuel leaks. They are pretty bad.
Wings are really AFU. This plane has a lot of issues. I padded the costs a
bit to cover the unforseen.
________________________________
From: Garner Rice <garnerrice@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 5:14:49 AM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Cost of annual
I dont think the issue is the cost of the annual as so much as the quality of
the annual. These aircraft that we all have are the same old planes and still
have to be annualed the same old way. If someone is doing the annual in 6 or 8
hours, then there is some skipping or overlooking going on. Sure the plane is
airworthy, it flew in, so it must be flyable right? Its kind of like a medical,
when the doctor listens to your heartbeat and says, "Yep you are still alive."
as opposed to having a MRI and knowing you have some real problems. I dont
care if the annual is done in an emaculant shop, out of a pickup truck, owner
assist, or what ever. The man hours should be the determining factor. A large
shop has overhead that the AI out of the pick up does not. I hear it all from
this end where there are some that bragg that they have never paid more than
150.00 for an annual and some that have paid several thousands of dollars. In
my opinion, they are both
getting ripped off. An inspection is just that and should be nothing more. I know
of shops that take it upon themselves to do things because "they" don't like
it. Its your plane, its your money, not the shops. It ultimately your call
as the owner/pilot to determing the airworthiness before you "clear prop"
Garner
________________________________
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| Subject: | Re: Cost of annual |
Gary, I know you're venting a bit, but don't change the way you do
annuals. Those of us who are particular come to you and keep coming
back. Those people who are not so particular may feel you go overboard
on details and may not come back, but so what? BTW, I wonder what
having detailed maintenance records going back several years adds to
resale value? I would say it's a significant benefit even before you
discuss the better overall condition of the plane.
Bill
Maybe no one really gives a shit that all that information is tracked
and readily available at a glance.
After reading what I just wrote, it occurred to me that I'm doing this
whole maintenance thing wrong. I've been treating these planes like
they were my own. I've been treating these planes as if the owners were
involved and concerned about the quality of maintenance. Perhaps if I
just expanded my Pre-Purchase inspection a bit I could use it for
annuals. I could easily do a basic annual in 8 hours for $650. Why
bother with details like how many hours there are on vacuum filters and
rudder springs or repacking wheel bearings every other year?
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Cost of annual |
Gary Vogt wrote:
> Those are some pretty cheap annuals. Linn, I think he said "He
> charges me $300 for 10 hours of inspection time." My Pre-Purchase
> inspection runs $450.
>
> When I started AuCountry Aviation in 1997, I was charging $50 an hour.
> At the time, the local avionics shop was $50/hr.
>
> I use a 14 page checklist that keeps 5 years of inspections in view.
> I can tell you when and why a wire was changed, a light was changed,
> how many hours on the brakes at each annual, when the last fuel
> selector valve overhaul was done last, notes as to serial numbers on
> major parts, times on mags, vacuum pumps, and hundreds of other items,
> all at a glance. When I get a plane for the first time, I may spend
> up to 6 hours going through the logs verifying dates and times. The
> data on my annuals is about as correct as can be made. I've seen
> logbooks so fucked up that the plane actually had over 200 hrs less
> than what showed due to transposing numbers. If I'm doing a plane for
> the first time, it takes about 24 hours to thoroughly go through the
> plane; I charge for 18 hrs. I make it up over the next few years
> since I now know the plane.
The first inspection was more ..... because he had to verify that all
the ADs had been complied with .... and annotated the entries with data
that was missing. That included looking at ALL the ADs. Now he just
looks for reecent ones.
> Maybe no one really gives a shit that all that information is tracked
> and readily available at a glance. I mean, really, just how important
> is it to be able to look at just two pages and see 10 years worth of
> compression tests to look for trends? Based on a few of the logbooks
> I've reviewed, some don't even show compression checks (10 years of
> annuals with no compression checks).
I keep all the 'notes' with squawks and the compression checks ..... and
usually just compare data with last years. Keeping all the data .....
and keeping it current probably should be a extra charge .... you can
cut the hours of the inspection by that time spent pounding keys.
> I raised my rates in 1999 to $60/hr (following the avionics shops
> rates). I went to $75/hr in 2001 (again following his rates). Then
> to $85/hr in 2003; all the time, I had 8 planes in progress. $90/hr
> in 2005. Returning customers were getting a 20% break on their bill.
> Last year I went to a flat rate of $1500 for the annual. My annuals
> typically take 16 to 18 hours.
With me removing all the stuff on the checklist, putting it all back,
and fixing squawks, I probably have that much time spent. But I spend a
lot of time looking for tools which you probably don't do. You're
probably more thorough.
> After reading what I just wrote, it occurred to me that I'm doing this
> whole maintenance thing wrong. I've been treating these planes like
> they were my own.
I think you've hit the biggest problem. We treat our own equipment
better than others will ..... but they don't have to worry about the
pride or reputation of a job well done.
> I've been treating these planes as if the owners were involved and
> concerned about the quality of maintenance.
Most owners would rather pay the minimum to keep the airplane airworthy
and, hopefully, keep their butt safe for a year. Only when they go to
sell it do they find out that it's still 'pay me now or pay me later'.
> Perhaps if I just expanded my Pre-Purchase inspection a bit I could
> use it for annuals. I could easily do a basic annual in 8 hours for
> $650. Why bother with details like how many hours there are on vacuum
> filters and rudder springs or repacking wheel bearings every other year?
When the filter starts to turn brown and before it crumbles .... I
replace it. A quick tug tells me whether it needs it or not. I've
never replaced one that was dirty .... just aged. I do repack bearings
every other year, and replace oil filters every other change. Lately I
don't fly as much as I did, so it's usually one filter a year. I spend
a lot of time on corrosion control .... mostly the hardware ..... and
painting places that need it.
>
> Owner assisted annuals: I charge for the hours I spend working on the
> plane. Some owners think standing around and asking, "Why are you
> doing that?" constitutes owner assisting. An owner assisted annual
> that uses up 24 hours of my time gets charged for 24 hours. At the
> other end of the spectrum is Bobby: He maintains his plane throughout
> the year. When he brings his plane in for an owner assisted annual,
> the wheel pants are off, the seats (except pilot's) are out, and the
> oil is changed. His annuals take less than 8 hours and we go though
> the whole plane.
I'm pretty much like Bobby. Depending on whether the airplane is kept
hangared or tied down, I don't see much need to do a complete, maxed
out, inspection every year. I feel that removing every
cover/tip/interior .... does more damage than I find. But, I watch my
AI do the inspection, I fix the squawks, and he looks at the work I did
when he fills out the logs. Remember that I have the tools and
knowledge (mostly) from building airplanes.
The biggest difference between you and I is that he comes to my hangar
which I pay the rent on. I don't figure how much of the 'rent'
(overhead) goes toward the annual, and I'm not trying to make a living
wrenching. I work on MY stuff cheap!!! I don't know how you guys do
it. My AI works 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet and support his family.
Other people pay $400 for an assisted annual, twice that (or more) for
one he does by himself.
Linn
>
> The 'other' maintenance shop here in Auburn charges $120/hr. Bob,
> Cliff, Garner, what do you charge per hour?
>
> Thanks for your input, Team.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
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| Subject: | Re: Cost of annual |
WILLIAM KELLY wrote:
> Gary, I know you're venting a bit, but don't change the way you do
> annuals. Those of us who are particular come to you and keep coming back.
This says there's value in what Gary does.
> Those people who are not so particular may feel you go overboard on
> details and may not come back, but so what?
So Gary saves some aggravation and the hit on his alcohol bill. Better
to let them go.
> BTW, I wonder what having detailed maintenance records going back
> several years adds to resale value? I would say it's a significant
> benefit even before you discuss the better overall condition of the plane.
I'm not so sure. I developed a scenario when I was brokering airplanes
..... you see two guys on the ramp (buyer and seller), and they're
looking at the SAME airplane. The seller sees a gold bar, and the buyer
sees a lead bar. Trying to get either guy to move a little to the
center is next to impossible. It's not necessarily the condition of
the airplane .... it's just the money. I've seen people buy real junk
at an inflated price ..... just because they didn't do their homework.
They didn't want to spend the money on a good pre-buy. Then when it
comes to a good annual, they have a conniption over the cost to make it
airworthy. Now, who do you think they blame??? Yup, the messenger.
Linn
>
> Bill
>
> Maybe no one really gives a shit that all that information is
> tracked and readily available at a glance.
> After reading what I just wrote, it occurred to me that I'm doing
> this whole maintenance thing wrong. I've been treating these
> planes like they were my own. I've been treating these planes as
> if the owners were involved and concerned about the quality of
> maintenance. Perhaps if I just expanded my Pre-Purchase
> inspection a bit I could use it for annuals. I could easily do a
> basic annual in 8 hours for $650. Why bother with details like
> how many hours there are on vacuum filters and rudder springs or
> repacking wheel bearings every other year?
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Cost of annual |
Gary, it sounds like your numbers are in the ball park for annual inspections.
I take my Tiger to a shop similar ot yours. There hourly rate is a little lower
probably because they are in low overhead country. They track all the maintenance
just like you do. My average cost over the last few years is about $1,800
which includes fixing a few squaks too (afterall the plane is 35 years old.
Seems to be a fair price and I have never found any safety issue after they
were finished. I could tell you a few stories about discoveries after an annual
inspection.
The guys that work on my plane deserve to make a decent living, though they probably
won't get rich doing what they do.
Keep doing the work you do to keep the Grummans in the air.
Mark MacDonald
N74052
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Cost of annual |
Tom, First an A&P can't sign the annual off, only an IA. Second,
most A&P's/IA's us the 100hr checklist, as long as it meets the scope
and detail of CFR43D. All AD's must be checked & compiled with on all
the airframe and engine components. Like Garner said, This is an
"Inspection" Your A&P/IA will give you a list of items that need to be
fixed in order for the annual to be signed off. Changing the brake
pad's, the oil, cleaning the plug's is extra. The cost can very.
Scott
On Jun 22, 2010, at 1:57 PM, Tom Quinn wrote:
> Garner,
> You bring up a good point. Is there a AA5 Annual
checklist that is available that we can hand to the AP to ensure he=92s
checking everything? My AP states that he has Grumman experience and my
annual (my first actually) was $750. I=92d rather pay a few more dollars
to make sure it=92s done right.
>
> Tom Quinn
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garner
Rice
> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 8:15 AM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Cost of annual
>
>
> I dont think the issue is the cost of the annual as so much as the
quality of the annual. These aircraft that we all have are the same old
planes and still have to be annualed the same old way. If someone is
doing the annual in 6 or 8 hours, then there is some skipping or
overlooking going on. Sure the plane is airworthy, it flew in, so it
must be flyable right? Its kind of like a medical, when the doctor
listens to your heartbeat and says, "Yep you are still alive." as
opposed to having a MRI and knowing you have some real problems. I dont
care if the annual is done in an emaculant shop, out of a pickup truck,
owner assist, or what ever. The man hours should be the determining
factor. A large shop has overhead that the AI out of the pick up does
not. I hear it all from this end where there are some that bragg that
they have never paid more than 150.00 for an annual and some that have
paid several thousands of dollars. In my opinion, they are both getting
ripped off. An inspection is just that and should be nothing more. I
know of shops that take it upon themselves to do things because "they"
don't like it. Its your plane, its your money, not the shops. It
ultimately your call as the owner/pilot to determing the airworthiness
before you "clear prop"
>
> Garner
>
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from
your inbox. See how.
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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Pre purchase inspection can be wast of time unless done by somebody
with the knowledge. I cant tell you how many "pre purchase" inspections in
clude good engine compression and the lights work...David Fletcher is more
than happy to do a walk around and call attention anything that jumps out a
t him as needed. But he will tell you he doesn't like doing the 200.00 pre
purchase. He would rather do the annual checklist=2C because too may things
get missed on CHEAP inspections. In the past we would offer different leve
ls of pre-purchase inspections. For example=2C there was this guy that boug
ht a cheetah and he didn't want to to an extensive pre-buy=2C so we did wha
t he wanted to pay for. Several years later=2C it was discovered the wheels
were not the correct cleveland part numbers. Well=2C he wanted to hold us
responsible for missing it.
On the annual inspections=2C FletchAir Fleet Support will charge 17 ho
urs @ 65.00 per hour for the inspection of the AA5B/A. Allthough it may tak
e longer with the records search and AD listing. When the airplane was only
a couple of years old=2Cl you could pretty much know what to expect. With
AD's on different manufactures components=2C like engine cylinder and seria
l number specific ones to boot. vacuum pumps and oil coolers. We recently h
ad a plane in the shop with an AD on the oil cooler that was clearly affect
ed and the AD was from decades ago. So the plane was annualed=2C lets see
=2C 25 times and never caught? How many good 150.00 annuals did it go thro
ugh? No a confidence builder.
As I said before=2C the inspection is just that. If you annual is out at
the end of the month and you bring you plane in at the first of the month.
A couple of days later=2C you should know what it will cost to have the ne
cesary list of squawks done 17 hours plus the list of squawks equals the a
mount you should owe in order to have the annual signed off airworthy.
What happens all too often is=2C someone takes their plane in at the end
of the month and 2 days later its out of annual. The owner feels he is stu
ck and so is his plane. Or they take their plane in early enough and the sh
op drags their feet getting around to doing the inspection and all of the s
udden its out of annual and again the owner feels stuck.
This is what I would do.
Call the shop and see about scheduling an annual inspection=2C It is just g
ood business to honor your word.
How long will it take to do an annual inspection. Get a firm quote on hours
(you can do the math with shop rate. No suprises there) Get a quote on how
many days it will take. If they say somthing like "well we wont know until
we get into it" Find a shop that knows what and how to do an inspection.
If I ask them how long it will take you to look out the window=2C don't com
e back and say well it depends on how many birds he sees out there. Get the
point? If he dont know or cant tell=2C find someone that does. If he has w
orth=2C he should know. He is a professional and should know his job
After the mechanic or shop gives you a quote=2C then let them do the inspec
tion. A busy shop should not have a problem with doing the inspection in 2
to 3 days. If they don't=2C I let them know what they quoted. The customers
time is valuable also. If the shop is way over due=2C then that shows poor
time management.
So they shoud have about 60 to 70% of the quoted inspection time used up to
tell you the list of squawks. It is a good practice to visit the shop if p
ossible to go over the squawks on the "airworthy" items. These are things t
hat must be fixed before it can be signed off as airworthy. It either "is"
or "isn't" There shouldn't be any "might" in the airworthiness. If they say
the crack in the windshield is an issue=2C or the tires=2C brakes=2C plug
s=2C need to be replaced=2C then all they would have to do is show me in th
e regs or the maintenance manual where that is the issue. If they can't and
"pride up" saying they wont sign it off=2C then take it to someone that kn
ows the business better.
Your plane is still in annual=2C then have them button it back up with the
40-30% of time left on the quoted inspection and take it to a more trusted
or knowledgable shop or mechinic. I will cost you extra=2C but sometimes h
ard lessons can be expensive=2C but you and the ones you tell will know bet
ter next time.
It's your money=2C you can be friendly=2C but you dont have to be friends.
Keep in mind=2C they need your money and want your money not your friendshi
p. Friendship don't pay the bills=2C your money does. Your money. You have
it=2C they want it. That should put you in charge=2C not the other way arou
nd.
I can't imagine someone calling for a part quote and I say 5.00 and turn ar
ound and try to charge him 10.00. I say 5=2C he says ok=2C I charge him 5.
Simple strait forward business.
Flying is an expensive hobby to start with. Fuel=2C hanger=2C insurance. Al
l known cost. Good maintenance should be a known not a shock.
Garner
From: teamgrumman@YAHOO.COM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cost of annual
Very Good. You're right. It is the owner's call. I could offer something
like different levels of inspection. For 8 hours you get this checked=2C
for 12 hours you get this checked=2C . . .
My Pre-Purchase inspection covers all of the same items as my inspection ch
ecklist without going into so much detail. For example=2C I only pull the
rear wing access covers adjacent to the fuel tank to look for leaks. The c
owling doesn't come off unless I suspect something. What it does cover is
how much everything is going to cost to fix.
I have attached two pages of a Pre-buy I did. I was giving Fletchair the b
enefit of the doubt when I picked the number of hours to fix. I really don
't have any idea how much it would cost to fix the fuel leaks. They are pr
etty bad. Wings are really AFU. This plane has a lot of issues. I padded
the costs a bit to cover the unforseen.
From: Garner Rice <garnerrice@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tue=2C June 22=2C 2010 5:14:49 AM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Cost of annual
I dont think the issue is the cost of the annual as so much as the quality
of the annual. These aircraft that we all have are the same old planes and
still have to be annualed the same old way. If someone is doing the annual
in 6 or 8 hours=2C then there is some skipping or overlooking going on. Su
re the plane is airworthy=2C it flew in=2C so it must be flyable right? Its
kind of like a medical=2C when the doctor listens to your heartbeat and sa
ys=2C "Yep you are still alive." as opposed to having a MRI and knowing you
have some real problems. I dont care if the annual is done in an emaculant
shop=2C out of a pickup truck=2C owner assist=2C or what ever. The man hou
rs should be the determining factor. A large shop has overhead that the AI
out of the pick up does not. I hear it all from this end where there are so
me that bragg that they have never paid more than 150.00 for an annual and
some that have paid several thousands of dollars. In my opinion=2C they are
both getting ripped off. An inspection is just that and should be nothing
more. I know of shops that take it upon themselves to do things because "t
hey" don't like it. Its your plane=2C its your money=2C not the shops. It
ultimately your call as the owner/pilot to determing the airworthiness befo
re you "clear prop"
Garner
Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your
inbox. See how.
_________________________________________________________________
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ID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Cost of annual |
And when you get that quote, have them put it down on paper. If they
balk, it's time to walk ..... er .... fly.
Linn
Garner Rice wrote:
> Pre purchase inspection can be wast of time unless done by
> somebody with the knowledge. I cant tell you how many "pre
> purchase" inspections include good engine compression and the lights
> work...David Fletcher is more than happy to do a walk around and call
> attention anything that jumps out at him as needed. But he will tell
> you he doesn't like doing the 200.00 pre purchase. He would rather do
> the annual checklist, because too may things get missed on CHEAP
> inspections. In the past we would offer different levels of
> pre-purchase inspections. For example, there was this guy that bought
> a cheetah and he didn't want to to an extensive pre-buy, so we did
> what he wanted to pay for. Several years later, it was discovered the
> wheels were not the correct cleveland part numbers. Well, he wanted to
> hold us responsible for missing it.
>
> On the annual inspections, FletchAir Fleet Support will charge 17
> hours @ 65.00 per hour for the inspection of the AA5B/A. Allthough it
> may take longer with the records search and AD listing. When the
> airplane was only a couple of years old,l you could pretty much know
> what to expect. With AD's on different manufactures components, like
> engine cylinder and serial number specific ones to boot. vacuum pumps
> and oil coolers. We recently had a plane in the shop with an AD on the
> oil cooler that was clearly affected and the AD was from decades ago.
> So the plane was annualed, lets see, 25 times and never caught? How
> many good 150.00 annuals did it go through? No a confidence builder.
>
> As I said before, the inspection is just that. If you annual is out
> at the end of the month and you bring you plane in at the first of the
> month. A couple of days later, you should know what it will cost to
> have the necesary list of squawks done 17 hours plus the list of
> squawks equals the amount you should owe in order to have the annual
> signed off airworthy.
>
> What happens all too often is, someone takes their plane in at the
> end of the month and 2 days later its out of annual. The owner feels
> he is stuck and so is his plane. Or they take their plane in early
> enough and the shop drags their feet getting around to doing the
> inspection and all of the sudden its out of annual and again the owner
> feels stuck.
>
> This is what I would do.
>
> Call the shop and see about scheduling an annual inspection, It is
> just good business to honor your word.
> How long will it take to do an annual inspection. Get a firm quote on
> hours (you can do the math with shop rate. No suprises there) Get a
> quote on how many days it will take. If they say somthing like "well
> we wont know until we get into it" Find a shop that knows what and how
> to do an inspection.
>
> If I ask them how long it will take you to look out the window, don't
> come back and say well it depends on how many birds he sees out there.
> Get the point? If he dont know or cant tell, find someone that does.
> If he has worth, he should know. He is a professional and should know
> his job
>
> After the mechanic or shop gives you a quote, then let them do the
> inspection. A busy shop should not have a problem with doing the
> inspection in 2 to 3 days. If they don't, I let them know what they
> quoted. The customers time is valuable also. If the shop is way over
> due, then that shows poor time management.
>
> So they shoud have about 60 to 70% of the quoted inspection time used
> up to tell you the list of squawks. It is a good practice to visit the
> shop if possible to go over the squawks on the "airworthy" items.
> These are things that must be fixed before it can be signed off as
> airworthy. It either "is" or "isn't" There shouldn't be any "might" in
> the airworthiness. If they say the crack in the windshield is an
> issue, or the tires, brakes, plugs, need to be replaced, then all
> they would have to do is show me in the regs or the maintenance manual
> where that is the issue. If they can't and "pride up" saying they wont
> sign it off, then take it to someone that knows the business better.
>
> Your plane is still in annual, then have them button it back up with
> the 40-30% of time left on the quoted inspection and take it to a more
> trusted or knowledgable shop or mechinic. I will cost you extra, but
> sometimes hard lessons can be expensive, but you and the ones you tell
> will know better next time.
>
> It's your money, you can be friendly, but you dont have to be friends.
> Keep in mind, they need your money and want your money not your
> friendship. Friendship don't pay the bills, your money does. Your
> money. You have it, they want it. That should put you in charge, not
> the other way around.
>
> I can't imagine someone calling for a part quote and I say 5.00 and
> turn around and try to charge him 10.00. I say 5, he says ok, I charge
> him 5. Simple strait forward business.
>
> Flying is an expensive hobby to start with. Fuel, hanger, insurance.
> All known cost. Good maintenance should be a known not a shock.
>
> Garner
Message 14
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Yes there is. It is in the maintenance manual. I beleive I'm right=2C but I
think that if a IA is signing the annual off=2C he is supposed to have the
lastest revision available. I say this because I deal with a lot of shops
that do annuals on Grummans and they check frequently for the lastest revis
ion. I had one IA pay to have a manual overnighted to him because the FAA w
as coming back to see if he had it. I could be wrong=2C and I'm sure I will
be corrected if so. There is only one section that is approved by the FAA
in the maintence manual and that is the the section on time lifed componets
. The rest is only accepted by the FAA. I was under the impression that in
order to get a production certificate=2C the aircraft manufacture had to ha
ve submitted a maintence manual for FAA acceptance=2C but I was at the Quar
ts Mountian auction and they were selling the TC for the Luscomb aircraft.
Someone said that there was never a maintenance manual for the aircraft tha
t were built. So unless there is some special reg that allowed this=2C I do
nt know. The parts manual has never been an approved source of information
and is only for reference.
On the checklist=2C it goes through the list if items and has a space for t
he mechanic to sign off. If you offer this to the mechanic=2C he may welcom
e your assistance or attitude up and say he has his own checklist to go by.
Nevertheless=2C I think it would be a good thing to have and request a cop
y of the completed list when the annual was completed. That way you would k
now hat mechanic did what by his initials. Also you could go over the list
with that shop and question them about certain items on the list. If you ge
t the "deer in the headlights stare" you might want to take a look at the q
uality of the annual.
Give me a call and I'd be happy to mail the check list to you and no charge
. That way you will have some understanding of what they should have done i
n the 4 hours it took them to do the annual :)
Garner
Garner=2C
You bring up a good point. Is there a AA5 Annual checklist th
at is available that we can hand to the AP to ensure he=92s checking everyt
hing? My AP states that he has Grumman experience and my annual (my first a
ctually) was $750. I=92d rather pay a few more dollars to make sure it=92s
done right.
Tom Quinn
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Message 15
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Check AC43.9C. I think you will find that when the log entry stating that t
he list has been given to the owner the inspection is complete and only an
A&P return to service entry for each airworthiness item is required to o o
perate the aircraft. The discrepancy list is a maintenance record subject t
o to requirement to be retained per 91.417(b)(1) and may be required to be
produced by the FAA.
Deems
From: md11strejo@YAHOO.COM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cost of annual
Tom=2C First an A&P can't sign the annual off=2C only an IA. Second=2C
most A&P's/IA's us the 100hr checklist=2C as long as it meets the scope an
d detail of CFR43D. All AD's must be checked & compiled with on all the ai
rframe and engine components. Like Garner said=2C This is an "Inspection"
Your A&P/IA will give you a list of items that need to be fixed in order
for the annual to be signed off.
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 16
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Amen Linn=2C
I have heard horror stories from customers that their plane is torn apart i
n some shop and the shop can't give them any kind of estimate of time or co
st for completion.
Not that paper will get your plane back for the original quoted cost=2C bec
ause there are some shady shops that know that they have you over the barre
ll=2C and the plane dont leave till the bill is paid=2C but might have some
weight should litigation be needed.
If someone tried that on me=2C I'd wear the phone out call that shop and sa
y=2C " Please tell me one more time how you quoted me 500.00 and charged me
1500.00. If it was a reputable shop=2C It might be cheaper to refund me t
han change their phone number they have had for 20 years. And let them know
you will continue calling until you can make sense of it!!!
Garner
From: pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cost of annual
And when you get that quote=2C have them put it down on paper. If they bal
k=2C it's time to walk ..... er .... fly.
Linn
Garner Rice wrote:
Pre purchase inspection can be wast of time unless done by somebody
with the knowledge. I cant tell you how many "pre purchase" inspections in
clude good engine compression and the lights work...David Fletcher is more
than happy to do a walk around and call attention anything that jumps out a
t him as needed. But he will tell you he doesn't like doing the 200.00 pre
purchase. He would rather do the annual checklist=2C because too may things
get missed on CHEAP inspections. In the past we would offer different leve
ls of pre-purchase inspections. For example=2C there was this guy that boug
ht a cheetah and he didn't want to to an extensive pre-buy=2C so we did wha
t he wanted to pay for. Several years later=2C it was discovered the wheels
were not the correct cleveland part numbers. Well=2C he wanted to hold us
responsible for missing it.
On the annual inspections=2C FletchAir Fleet Support will charge 17 ho
urs @ 65.00 per hour for the inspection of the AA5B/A. Allthough it may tak
e longer with the records search and AD listing. When the airplane was only
a couple of years old=2Cl you could pretty much know what to expect. With
AD's on different manufactures components=2C like engine cylinder and seria
l number specific ones to boot. vacuum pumps and oil coolers. We recently h
ad a plane in the shop with an AD on the oil cooler that was clearly affect
ed and the AD was from decades ago. So the plane was annualed=2C lets see
=2C 25 times and never caught? How many good 150.00 annuals did it go thro
ugh? No a confidence builder.
As I said before=2C the inspection is just that. If you annual is out at
the end of the month and you bring you plane in at the first of the month.
A couple of days later=2C you should know what it will cost to have the ne
cesary list of squawks done 17 hours plus the list of squawks equals the a
mount you should owe in order to have the annual signed off airworthy.
What happens all too often is=2C someone takes their plane in at the end
of the month and 2 days later its out of annual. The owner feels he is stu
ck and so is his plane. Or they take their plane in early enough and the sh
op drags their feet getting around to doing the inspection and all of the s
udden its out of annual and again the owner feels stuck.
This is what I would do.
Call the shop and see about scheduling an annual inspection=2C It is just g
ood business to honor your word.
How long will it take to do an annual inspection. Get a firm quote on hours
(you can do the math with shop rate. No suprises there) Get a quote on how
many days it will take. If they say somthing like "well we wont know until
we get into it" Find a shop that knows what and how to do an inspection.
If I ask them how long it will take you to look out the window=2C don't com
e back and say well it depends on how many birds he sees out there. Get the
point? If he dont know or cant tell=2C find someone that does. If he has w
orth=2C he should know. He is a professional and should know his job
After the mechanic or shop gives you a quote=2C then let them do the inspec
tion. A busy shop should not have a problem with doing the inspection in 2
to 3 days. If they don't=2C I let them know what they quoted. The customers
time is valuable also. If the shop is way over due=2C then that shows poor
time management.
So they shoud have about 60 to 70% of the quoted inspection time used up to
tell you the list of squawks. It is a good practice to visit the shop if p
ossible to go over the squawks on the "airworthy" items. These are things t
hat must be fixed before it can be signed off as airworthy. It either "is"
or "isn't" There shouldn't be any "might" in the airworthiness. If they say
the crack in the windshield is an issue=2C or the tires=2C brakes=2C plug
s=2C need to be replaced=2C then all they would have to do is show me in th
e regs or the maintenance manual where that is the issue. If they can't and
"pride up" saying they wont sign it off=2C then take it to someone that kn
ows the business better.
Your plane is still in annual=2C then have them button it back up with the
40-30% of time left on the quoted inspection and take it to a more trusted
or knowledgable shop or mechinic. I will cost you extra=2C but sometimes h
ard lessons can be expensive=2C but you and the ones you tell will know bet
ter next time.
It's your money=2C you can be friendly=2C but you dont have to be friends.
Keep in mind=2C they need your money and want your money not your friendshi
p. Friendship don't pay the bills=2C your money does. Your money. You have
it=2C they want it. That should put you in charge=2C not the other way arou
nd.
I can't imagine someone calling for a part quote and I say 5.00 and turn ar
ound and try to charge him 10.00. I say 5=2C he says ok=2C I charge him 5.
Simple strait forward business.
Flying is an expensive hobby to start with. Fuel=2C hanger=2C insurance. Al
l known cost. Good maintenance should be a known not a shock.
Garner
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hot
mail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=P
ID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Cost of annual |
When I see the cost of annual inspections here and on the Gang, I
cringe. No way could I afford my airplane if I had to cough up 4-5 G
every year just for an annual. My annuals run about $200 for the AI (he
also drinks a lot of my beer) but I live on an airpark, have my own
hanger and do most of the work. I buy all my parts from Fletcher unless
it is something I need in a hurry and I get it locally.
There are 2 or 3 AI's on the field, retired guys mostly who just like to
fool with airplanes. I have all of the manuals, and I use the Checklist
from the manual. I take my time taking the airplane apart, my AI comes
and inspects the plane, does the compression check, etc, and then gives
me a gig list to work off, If I have any upgrades to do, I usually do
them while the airplane is open. My AI then comes back, inspects my work
and then ok's my putting the plane back together. Again, I take my time,
clean and paint what needs cleaning and painting. Also, I NEVER do an
annual in he summertime. Keep it in March / April.
Living on an airpark makes owning and operating an airplane a lot easer
on your wallet then keeping an airplane at the airport. No tie down or
hanger fees, no driving back and forth to the airport and living around
many other talented folks who are willing to help out..
Claude Allen
Haller Field
Green Cove Springs, Fl
From: Gary Vogt
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cost of annual
Those are some pretty cheap annuals. Linn, I think he said "He charges
me $300 for 10 hours of inspection time." My Pre-Purchase inspection
runs $450.
When I started AuCountry Aviation in 1997, I was charging $50 an hour.
At the time, the local avionics shop was $50/hr.
I use a 14 page checklist that keeps 5 years of inspections in view. I
can tell you when and why a wire was changed, a light was changed, how
many hours on the brakes at each annual, when the last fuel selector
valve overhaul was done last, notes as to serial numbers on major parts,
times on mags, vacuum pumps, and hundreds of other items, all at a
glance. When I get a plane for the first time, I may spend up to 6
hours going through the logs verifying dates and times. The data on my
annuals is about as correct as can be made. I've seen logbooks so
fucked up that the plane actually had over 200 hrs less than what showed
due to transposing numbers. If I'm doing a plane for the first time, it
takes about 24 hours to thoroughly go through the plane; I charge for 18
hrs. I make it up over the next few years since I now know the plane.
Maybe no one really gives a shit that all that information is tracked
and readily available at a glance. I mean, really, just how important
is it to be able to look at just two pages and see 10 years worth of
compression tests to look for trends? Based on a few of the logbooks
I've reviewed, some don't even show compression checks (10 years of
annuals with no compression checks).
I raised my rates in 1999 to $60/hr (following the avionics shops
rates). I went to $75/hr in 2001 (again following his rates). Then to
$85/hr in 2003; all the time, I had 8 planes in progress. $90/hr in
2005. Returning customers were getting a 20% break on their bill. Last
year I went to a flat rate of $1500 for the annual. My annuals
typically take 16 to 18 hours.
After reading what I just wrote, it occurred to me that I'm doing this
whole maintenance thing wrong. I've been treating these planes like
they were my own. I've been treating these planes as if the owners were
involved and concerned about the quality of maintenance. Perhaps if I
just expanded my Pre-Purchase inspection a bit I could use it for
annuals. I could easily do a basic annual in 8 hours for $650. Why
bother with details like how many hours there are on vacuum filters and
rudder springs or repacking wheel bearings every other year?
Owner assisted annuals: I charge for the hours I spend working on the
plane. Some owners think standing around and asking, "Why are you doing
that?" constitutes owner assisting. An owner assisted annual that uses
up 24 hours of my time gets charged for 24 hours. At the other end of
the spectrum is Bobby: He maintains his plane throughout the year.
When he brings his plane in for an owner assisted annual, the wheel
pants are off, the seats (except pilot's) are out, and the oil is
changed. His annuals take less than 8 hours and we go though the whole
plane.
The 'other' maintenance shop here in Auburn charges $120/hr. Bob,
Cliff, Garner, what do you charge per hour?
Thanks for your input, Team.
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