---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 07/02/10: 4 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:06 PM - LEARN! (FLYaDIVE) 2. 03:47 PM - Re: LEARN! (Doug Fortnam) 3. 08:08 PM - Re: LEARN! (Gary Vogt) 4. 10:41 PM - Re: LEARN! (James Courtney) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:06:49 PM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN! From: FLYaDIVE Hello Gang and Guru's: I want to extent a learning situation that just happened to me in hopes of saving someone out there time, money and maybe some one's life. I was flying a friends plane, AA5B, and we just got back to the pattern. I announced the 45 and just as I did the engine began to run Very Rough, Baulked and Kicked. Landed without additional incident. Shut down and pulled the prop through - NO COMPRESSION on #1. Next day did a compression check - Confirmed - ZERO COMPRESSION - Air rushing out of the exhaust. Pulled the cylinder - Exhaust valve was missing BIG PIECES - Found three in the exhaust pipe. Ordered a NEW cylinder - piston, rings, wrist pin, rocker pin and buttons. BEFORE installing the New cylinder I inspected the INTAKE PIPE and SUMP SPIDER for any more broken parts of the valve. Inspected with a light - my fingers and magnet. NONE FOUND! Installed the NEW cylinder. Did a short time start up at low RPM and all was WELL. Taxied to the runway [1000 RPM MAX.] Did a Run-Up all was WELL. DO YOU KNOW WHERE I AM GOING WITH THIS? I have a habit to do a Run-Up To Full Throttle ON the runway just before take off. RPM dropped from 1800 down to 1500. AND the engine Baulked Heavy. WE AIN'T GOING NO WHERE! ! ! Taxied back. Pulled the spark plug. And did a Compression check. Cyl #1 (The New one) was 60/80. LQQKed inside and the piston had dings all over the face. Those out there with experience KNOW what happened ... There was a piece of Valve still in the system. BUT WAIT! YES, I did a Visual - Physical - and - Magnetic Inspection of the #1 Cylinder INTAKE Spider. I think I was more PISSED than the customer. I KNOW I WAS! I kicked myself in the ass a few dozen times. I APOLOGIZED to the customer and PROMISED TO MAKE UP FOR THE LOSS OF A NEW CYLINDER. OUCH! Not happy with my previous inspection I am my own worst critic - I pulled off ALL the cylinders. Upon pulling of Cyl #3--- Guess what fell out of the INTAKE ... a hunk of valve about 3/8" across. It TOTALLY ELUDED my inspection. So, what do you do ... Do you do the STANDARD - Pull & Inspect as per above or do you OPEN ALL the INTAKES? Guess what I am going to do from now on! And in addition I am going to pull the Carb too! Barry 'Always a student' A smart man learns from his mistakes - An intelligent man learns from the mistakes of others.' I made this one You Learn! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:47:51 PM PST US From: "Doug Fortnam" Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN! Barry, Thanks for sharing this story! Doug Fortnam -----Original Message----- From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 6:06 PM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN! Hello Gang and Guru's: I want to extent a learning situation that just happened to me in hopes of saving someone out there time, money and maybe some one's life. I was flying a friend's plane, AA5B, and we just got back to the pattern. I announced the 45 and just as I did the engine began to run Very Rough, Baulked and Kicked. Landed without additional incident. Shut down and pulled the prop through - NO COMPRESSION on #1. Next day did a compression check - Confirmed - ZERO COMPRESSION - Air rushing out of the exhaust. Pulled the cylinder - Exhaust valve was missing BIG PIECES - Found three in the exhaust pipe. Ordered a NEW cylinder - piston, rings, wrist pin, rocker pin and buttons. BEFORE installing the New cylinder I inspected the INTAKE PIPE and SUMP SPIDER for any more broken parts of the valve. Inspected with a light - my fingers and magnet. NONE FOUND! Installed the NEW cylinder. Did a short time start up at low RPM and all was WELL. Taxied to the runway [1000 RPM MAX.] Did a Run-Up all was WELL. DO YOU KNOW WHERE I AM GOING WITH THIS? I have a habit to do a Run-Up To Full Throttle ON the runway just before take off. RPM dropped from 1800 down to 1500. AND the engine Baulked Heavy. WE AIN'T GOING NO WHERE! ! ! Taxied back. Pulled the spark plug. And did a Compression check. Cyl #1 (The New one) was 60/80. LQQKed inside and the piston had dings all over the face. Those out there with experience KNOW what happened ... There was a piece of Valve still in the system. BUT WAIT! YES, I did a Visual - Physical - and - Magnetic Inspection of the #1 Cylinder INTAKE Spider. I think I was more PISSED than the customer. I KNOW I WAS! I kicked myself in the ass a few dozen times. I APOLOGIZED to the customer and PROMISED TO MAKE UP FOR THE LOSS OF A NEW CYLINDER. OUCH! Not happy with my previous inspection - I am my own worst critic - I pulled off ALL the cylinders. Upon pulling of Cyl #3--- Guess what fell out of the INTAKE ... a hunk of valve about 3/8" across. It TOTALLY ELUDED my inspection. So, what do you do ... Do you do the STANDARD - Pull & Inspect as per above or do you OPEN ALL the INTAKES? Guess what I am going to do from now on! And in addition I am going to pull the Carb too! Barry 'Always a student' 'A smart man learns from his mistakes - An intelligent man learns from the mistakes of others.' I made this one - You Learn! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:51 PM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN! I had a customer with the same experience over San Francisco bay. He made it to San Rafael. When I pulled the cylinder, the valve head was intact in the cylinder. Lots of dents on the piston. We opted to replace just that cylinder and get it to Auburn. Then, all new ported and polished cylinder s. =0A=0AYou're lucky. You might have taken off and had that chunk bounce around in a few other cylinders as well. =0A=0AI had a turbo Corvair that ingested a washer. It chewed up the turbo that then deposited pieces all though the engine. What a mess. =0A=0AGary=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________ ___________________=0AFrom: FLYaDIVE =0ATo: teamgrumman -list@matronics.com=0ASent: Fri, July 2, 2010 3:06:00 PM=0ASubject: TeamGru yadive@gmail.com>=0A=0AHello Gang and Guru's:=0A=0AI want to extent a learn ing situation that just happened to me in=0Ahopes of saving someone out the re time, money and maybe some one's=0Alife.=0A=0AI was flying a friend =99s plane, AA5B, and we just got back to the pattern.=0AI announced the 45 and just as I did the engine began to run Very=0ARough, Baulked and Kic ked.=0ALanded without additional incident.=0AShut down and pulled the prop through - NO COMPRESSION on #1.=0ANext day did a compression check - Confir med - ZERO COMPRESSION - Air=0Arushing out of the exhaust.=0APulled the cyl inder - Exhaust valve was missing BIG PIECES - Found=0Athree in the exhaust pipe.=0AOrdered a NEW cylinder - piston, rings, wrist pin, rocker pin and buttons.=0A=0ABEFORE installing the New cylinder I inspected the INTAKE PIP E and=0ASUMP SPIDER for any more broken parts of the valve.=0AInspected wit h a light - my fingers and magnet. NONE FOUND!=0A=0AInstalled the NEW cyl inder.=0ADid a short time start up at low RPM and all was WELL.=0ATaxied to the runway [1000 RPM MAX.]=0ADid a Run-Up all was WELL.=0A=0ADO YOU KNOW W HERE I AM GOING WITH THIS?=0A=0AI have a habit to do a Run-Up To Full Throt tle ON the runway just=0Abefore take off.=0A=0ARPM dropped from 1800 down t o 1500. AND the engine Baulked Heavy.=0A=0AWE AIN'T GOING NO WHERE! ! !=0A =0ATaxied back.=0APulled the spark plug.=0AAnd did a Compression check.=0AC yl #1 (The New one) was 60/80.=0ALQQKed inside and the piston had dings all over the face.=0A=0AThose out there with experience KNOW what happened ... =0A=0AThere was a piece of Valve still in the system.=0A=0ABUT WAIT!=0A=0AY ES, I did a Visual - Physical - and - Magnetic Inspection of the #1=0ACylin der INTAKE Spider.=0A=0AI think I was more PISSED than the customer. I KNO W I WAS!=0A=0AI kicked myself in the ass a few dozen times.=0A=0AI APOLOGIZ ED to the customer and PROMISED TO MAKE UP FOR THE LOSS OF A=0ANEW CYLINDER . OUCH!=0A=0ANot happy with my previous inspection =93 I am my own w orst critic - I=0Apulled off ALL the cylinders.=0A=0AUpon pulling of Cyl #3 --- Guess what fell out of the INTAKE ... a hunk=0Aof valve about 3/8" acro ss.=0A=0AIt TOTALLY ELUDED my inspection.=0A=0ASo, what do you do ... Do yo u do the STANDARD - Pull & Inspect as per=0Aabove or do you OPEN ALL the IN TAKES?=0A=0AGuess what I am going to do from now on!=0A=0AAnd in addition I am going to pull the Carb too!=0A=0ABarry=0A'Always a student'=0A=98 A smart man learns from his mistakes - An intelligent man learns from=0Athe =================0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:41:10 PM PST US From: "James Courtney" Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN! I still have the valve head in my desk drawer beside me. Not sure I=99d call it intact but about 2/3 of it are hereJ The issue occurred over Sausalito just after dark (ugh) on my way back from looking at the Bonanza I ended up buying. Apparently I offended my Tiger. The engine was at right around 1000 hours which is when the exhaust valve issues seem to show up. Similarly on my Porsche-Diesel tractor when we rebuilt the engine here=99s what we saw on the head: http://tinyurl.com/29na9nw Little fellow swallowed a nut from the intake at some pointJ Those went back on with lock washers and loc-tite! Jamey From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 8:08 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN! I had a customer with the same experience over San Francisco bay. He made it to San Rafael. When I pulled the cylinder, the valve head was intact in the cylinder. Lots of dents on the piston. We opted to replace just that cylinder and get it to Auburn. Then, all new ported and polished cylinders. You're lucky. You might have taken off and had that chunk bounce around in a few other cylinders as well. I had a turbo Corvair that ingested a washer. It chewed up the turbo that then deposited pieces all though the engine. What a mess. Gary _____ From: FLYaDIVE Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 3:06:00 PM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN! Hello Gang and Guru's: I want to extent a learning situation that just happened to me in hopes of saving someone out there time, money and maybe some one's life. I was flying a friend=99s plane, AA5B, and we just got back to the pattern. I announced the 45 and just as I did the engine began to run Very Rough, Baulked and Kicked. Landed without additional incident. Shut down and pulled the prop through - NO COMPRESSION on #1. Next day did a compression check - Confirmed - ZERO COMPRESSION - Air rushing out of the exhaust. Pulled the cylinder - Exhaust valve was missing BIG PIECES - Found three in the exhaust pipe. Ordered a NEW cylinder - piston, rings, wrist pin, rocker pin and buttons. BEFORE installing the New cylinder I inspected the INTAKE PIPE and SUMP SPIDER for any more broken parts of the valve. Inspected with a light - my fingers and magnet. NONE FOUND! Installed the NEW cylinder. Did a short time start up at low RPM and all was WELL. Taxied to the runway [1000 RPM MAX.] Did a Run-Up all was WELL. DO YOU KNOW WHERE I AM GOING WITH THIS? I have a habit to do a Run-Up To Full Throttle ON the runway just before take off. RPM dropped from 1800 down to 1500. AND the engine Baulked Heavy. WE AIN'T GOING NO WHERE! ! ! Taxied back. Pulled the spark plug. And did a Compression check. Cyl #1 (The New one) was 60/80. LQQKed inside and the piston had dings all over the face. Those out there with experience KNOW what happened ... There was a piece of Valve still in the system. BUT WAIT! YES, I did a Visual - Physical - and - Magnetic Inspection of the #1 Cylinder INTAKE Spider. I think I was more PISSED than the customer. I KNOW I WAS! I kicked myself in the ass a few dozen times. I APOLOGIZED to the customer and PROMISED TO MAKE UP FOR THE LOSS OF A NEW CYLINDER. OUCH! Not happy with my previous inspection =93 I am my own worst critic - I pulled off ALL the cylinders. Upon pulling of Cyl #3--- Guess what fell out of the INTAKE ... a hunk of valve about 3/8" across. It TOTALLY ELUDED my inspection. So, what do you do ... Do you do the STANDARD - Pull & Inspect as per above or do you OPEN ALL the INTAKES? Guess what I am going to do from now on! And in addition I am going to pull the Carb too! Barry 'Always a student' =98A smart man learns from his mistakes - An intelligent man learns from the mistakes of others.' I made this one =93 You Learn! http://www.ma " href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhttp://ww w.matronics.com/co=================== Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 11:35:00 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.