Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:50 AM - Re: LEARN! (flyv35b)
2. 07:09 AM - Re: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve (flyv35b)
3. 07:56 AM - Re: LEARN! (James Courtney)
4. 02:05 PM - Re: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve (Gary Vogt)
5. 04:47 PM - Re: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve (flyv35b)
Message 1
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Jamey, I didn't know you had a Porsche tractor. What year was it
manufactured? Why don't you buy a car? A 356?
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: James Courtney
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 10:26 PM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN!
I still have the valve head in my desk drawer beside me. Not sure
I=99d call it intact but about 2/3 of it are hereJ The issue
occurred over Sausalito just after dark (ugh) on my way back from
looking at the Bonanza I ended up buying. Apparently I offended my
Tiger. The engine was at right around 1000 hours which is when the
exhaust valve issues seem to show up.
Similarly on my Porsche-Diesel tractor when we rebuilt the engine
here=99s what we saw on the head:
http://tinyurl.com/29na9nw
Little fellow swallowed a nut from the intake at some pointJ Those
went back on with lock washers and loc-tite!
Jamey
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Vogt
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 8:08 PM
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN!
I had a customer with the same experience over San Francisco bay. He
made it to San Rafael. When I pulled the cylinder, the valve head was
intact in the cylinder. Lots of dents on the piston. We opted to
replace just that cylinder and get it to Auburn. Then, all new ported
and polished cylinders.
You're lucky. You might have taken off and had that chunk bounce
around in a few other cylinders as well.
I had a turbo Corvair that ingested a washer. It chewed up the turbo
that then deposited pieces all though the engine. What a mess.
Gary
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 3:06:00 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN!
Hello Gang and Guru's:
I want to extent a learning situation that just happened to me in
hopes of saving someone out there time, money and maybe some one's
life.
I was flying a friend=99s plane, AA5B, and we just got back to
the pattern.
I announced the 45 and just as I did the engine began to run Very
Rough, Baulked and Kicked.
Landed without additional incident.
Shut down and pulled the prop through - NO COMPRESSION on #1.
Next day did a compression check - Confirmed - ZERO COMPRESSION - Air
rushing out of the exhaust.
Pulled the cylinder - Exhaust valve was missing BIG PIECES - Found
three in the exhaust pipe.
Ordered a NEW cylinder - piston, rings, wrist pin, rocker pin and
buttons.
BEFORE installing the New cylinder I inspected the INTAKE PIPE and
SUMP SPIDER for any more broken parts of the valve.
Inspected with a light - my fingers and magnet. NONE FOUND!
Installed the NEW cylinder.
Did a short time start up at low RPM and all was WELL.
Taxied to the runway [1000 RPM MAX.]
Did a Run-Up all was WELL.
DO YOU KNOW WHERE I AM GOING WITH THIS?
I have a habit to do a Run-Up To Full Throttle ON the runway just
before take off.
RPM dropped from 1800 down to 1500. AND the engine Baulked Heavy.
WE AIN'T GOING NO WHERE! ! !
Taxied back.
Pulled the spark plug.
And did a Compression check.
Cyl #1 (The New one) was 60/80.
LQQKed inside and the piston had dings all over the face.
Those out there with experience KNOW what happened ...
There was a piece of Valve still in the system.
BUT WAIT!
YES, I did a Visual - Physical - and - Magnetic Inspection of the #1
Cylinder INTAKE Spider.
I think I was more PISSED than the customer. I KNOW I WAS!
I kicked myself in the ass a few dozen times.
I APOLOGIZED to the customer and PROMISED TO MAKE UP FOR THE LOSS OF A
NEW CYLINDER. OUCH!
Not happy with my previous inspection =93 I am my own worst
critic - I
pulled off ALL the cylinders.
Upon pulling of Cyl #3--- Guess what fell out of the INTAKE ... a hunk
of valve about 3/8" across.
It TOTALLY ELUDED my inspection.
So, what do you do ... Do you do the STANDARD - Pull & Inspect as per
above or do you OPEN ALL the INTAKES?
Guess what I am going to do from now on!
And in addition I am going to pull the Carb too!
Barry
'Always a student'
=98A smart man learns from his mistakes - An intelligent man
learns from
the mistakes of others.'
I made this one =93 You Learn!
http://www.ma"
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhttp://ww
w.matronics.com/co===================
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhttp://forums.matronic
s.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution No virus found in this
incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
11:35:00
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve |
Also, I don't think a 0.2 increase in CR would result in 20 more HP.
As I recall ECI which offers a 9.0 CR parallel valve engine
(experimental) rates the HP less that 200. Seems to me the angle valve
IO-360 develops more power due to 3 things: a better induction system
and combustion chamber (it flows more air), higher CR and possibly fuel
injection.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: James Courtney
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 11:05 PM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve
Would it really make more heat though? You've more efficiently
converting fuel and oxygen to mechanical energy with the higher
compression ratio. This said you're also incurring higher internal
pressures which tends to transfer more heat to the cylinder and head. I
wonder what the actual behavior is? Probably a bit more heat as you say
since more energy is being extracted even if greater efficiency is at
play.
Jamey
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Vogt
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 7:24 PM
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve
From a horsepower point-of-view, the angle valve head flows better.
The valves are angles more toward the ports. But, the difference really
isn't that much. The 200 hp angle valve uses 8.7:1 compression ratio.
If the parallel valve O360 had 8.7:1 compression ratio, it would make
200 hp also.
The biggest difference is the angle valve head had better cooling
fins. Therefore, if it makes more heat (horsepower) it can shed the
heat better.
If you consider weight, the parallel valve is better hp/lb.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: Bruce Smith <haveblue1@mac.com>
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 6:55:16 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhttp://forums.matronic
s.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution No virus found in this
incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
23:37:00
Message 3
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Two tractors actually (restored 1958 Junior 108L and 1961 Super 329
under construction). My in-laws have the cars including 356s. Being a
good Midwestern boy I have a weakness for old red tractorsJ
How=99s your 356 coming? Amazing how similar the engines are to
aircraft engines.
Jamey
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
flyv35b
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 6:50 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN!
Jamey, I didn't know you had a Porsche tractor. What year was it
manufactured? Why don't you buy a car? A 356?
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: James Courtney <mailto:jamey@jamescourtney.net>
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 10:26 PM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN!
I still have the valve head in my desk drawer beside me. Not sure
I=99d call it intact but about 2/3 of it are hereJ The issue
occurred over Sausalito just after dark (ugh) on my way back from
looking at the Bonanza I ended up buying. Apparently I offended my
Tiger. The engine was at right around 1000 hours which is when the
exhaust valve issues seem to show up.
Similarly on my Porsche-Diesel tractor when we rebuilt the engine
here=99s what we saw on the head:
http://tinyurl.com/29na9nw
Little fellow swallowed a nut from the intake at some pointJ Those went
back on with lock washers and loc-tite!
Jamey
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Vogt
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN!
I had a customer with the same experience over San Francisco bay. He
made it to San Rafael. When I pulled the cylinder, the valve head was
intact in the cylinder. Lots of dents on the piston. We opted to
replace just that cylinder and get it to Auburn. Then, all new ported
and polished cylinders.
You're lucky. You might have taken off and had that chunk bounce around
in a few other cylinders as well.
I had a turbo Corvair that ingested a washer. It chewed up the turbo
that then deposited pieces all though the engine. What a mess.
Gary
_____
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>
Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 3:06:00 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN!
Hello Gang and Guru's:
I want to extent a learning situation that just happened to me in
hopes of saving someone out there time, money and maybe some one's
life.
I was flying a friend=99s plane, AA5B, and we just got back to the
pattern.
I announced the 45 and just as I did the engine began to run Very
Rough, Baulked and Kicked.
Landed without additional incident.
Shut down and pulled the prop through - NO COMPRESSION on #1.
Next day did a compression check - Confirmed - ZERO COMPRESSION - Air
rushing out of the exhaust.
Pulled the cylinder - Exhaust valve was missing BIG PIECES - Found
three in the exhaust pipe.
Ordered a NEW cylinder - piston, rings, wrist pin, rocker pin and
buttons.
BEFORE installing the New cylinder I inspected the INTAKE PIPE and
SUMP SPIDER for any more broken parts of the valve.
Inspected with a light - my fingers and magnet. NONE FOUND!
Installed the NEW cylinder.
Did a short time start up at low RPM and all was WELL.
Taxied to the runway [1000 RPM MAX.]
Did a Run-Up all was WELL.
DO YOU KNOW WHERE I AM GOING WITH THIS?
I have a habit to do a Run-Up To Full Throttle ON the runway just
before take off.
RPM dropped from 1800 down to 1500. AND the engine Baulked Heavy.
WE AIN'T GOING NO WHERE! ! !
Taxied back.
Pulled the spark plug.
And did a Compression check.
Cyl #1 (The New one) was 60/80.
LQQKed inside and the piston had dings all over the face.
Those out there with experience KNOW what happened ...
There was a piece of Valve still in the system.
BUT WAIT!
YES, I did a Visual - Physical - and - Magnetic Inspection of the #1
Cylinder INTAKE Spider.
I think I was more PISSED than the customer. I KNOW I WAS!
I kicked myself in the ass a few dozen times.
I APOLOGIZED to the customer and PROMISED TO MAKE UP FOR THE LOSS OF A
NEW CYLINDER. OUCH!
Not happy with my previous inspection =93 I am my own worst critic
- I
pulled off ALL the cylinders.
Upon pulling of Cyl #3--- Guess what fell out of the INTAKE ... a hunk
of valve about 3/8" across.
It TOTALLY ELUDED my inspection.
So, what do you do ... Do you do the STANDARD - Pull & Inspect as per
above or do you OPEN ALL the INTAKES?
Guess what I am going to do from now on!
And in addition I am going to pull the Carb too!
Barry
'Always a student'
=98A smart man learns from his mistakes - An intelligent man
learns from
the mistakes of others.'
I made this one =93 You Learn!
http://www.ma <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List> "
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhttp://ww
w.matronics.com/co===================
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
11:35:00
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
11:36:00
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve |
Ken (Lycon) told me the 9:1 pistons would make 200 pretty easily. The bett
er =0Aflowing heads on the angle valve definitely helps.=0A=0AI did a crank
ing pressure test on a Tiger with new LyCon ported and polished =0Acylinder
s. The cranking pressure was 135-137 on 1, 3, 4. On #2, it was 149. =0A G
o figure.=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: flyv35b <flyv
35b@minetfiber.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, July
7, 2010 7:09:48 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Paralle
l Valve=0A=0A =0AAlso, I don't think a 0.2 increase in CR would result in
20 more HP. As I =0Arecall ECI which offers a 9.0 CR parallel valve engi
ne (experimental) rates the =0AHP less that 200. Seems to me the angle va
lve IO-360 develops more power due =0Ato 3 things: a better induction syste
m and combustion chamber (it flows more =0Aair), higher CR and possibly fu
el injection.=0A =0ACliff=0A----- Original Message ----- =0A>From: James
Courtney =0A>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Monday, June 28
, 2010 11:05 PM=0A>Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Paral
lel Valve=0A>=0A>=0A>Would it really make more heat though? You
=99ve more efficiently converting =0A>fuel and oxygen to mechanical ener
gy with the higher compression ratio. This =0A>said you=99re also
incurring higher internal pressures which tends to transfer =0A>more he
at to the cylinder and head. I wonder what the actual behavior is? =0A
>Probably a bit more heat as you say since more energy is being extracte
d even =0A>if greater efficiency is at play.=0A> =0A>Jamey=0A> =0A> =0A>
=0A>From:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com =0A>[mailto:owner-t
eamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt=0A>Sent: Mo
nday, June 28, 2010 7:24 PM=0A>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0A>Subjec
t: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve=0A> =0A>From a h
orsepower point-of-view, the angle valve head flows better. The =0A>val
ves are angles more toward the ports. But, the difference really isn't
=0A>that much. The 200 hp angle valve uses 8.7:1 compression ratio. If
the =0A>parallel valve O360 had 8.7:1 compression ratio, it would make
200 hp also. =0A> =0A>The biggest difference is the angle valve head had b
etter cooling fins. =0A> Therefore, if it makes more heat (horsepower) i
t can shed the heat better.=0A> =0A>If you consider weight, the parallel
valve is better hp/lb. =0A> =0A>=0A________________________________=0A
=0A>From:Bruce Smith <haveblue1@mac.com>=0A>To: teamgrumman-list@matron
ics.com=0A>Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 6:55:16 PM=0A>Subject: TeamGrumman-L
ist: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A>http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0A>http://forums.matronics.com=0A>http:
//www.matronics.com/contribution=0A> =0A>No virus found in this incomin
g message.=0A>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com=0A>23:37:00=0A> =0A>href="htt
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forum
s.matronics.com=0A> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://w
========================
=0A=0A=0A=0A
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve |
Maybe (or probably) on Lycon's dyno. But we both know that their dyno
is not truly representative of the real world power output as installed
in a Grumman with it's stock exhaust system, alternator and vacuum pump,
which Lycon does not install on their test dyno installation. Their
measured power figures are higher than you will see in the airframe. Of
course the PF exhaust system does improve the power output over a stock
system.
My point was that even with 9.0 CR the rated power from ECI, which makes
a complete experimental engine, is less than 200 hp. In fact it's rated
at 189 hp with a carb and 191 hp with fuel injection. So the angle
valve engine gets it's extra 20 hp from other things besides just a 8.7
CR. And I have never seen any data on camshaft timing events published,
which can influence torque and power, but not like it does in an
automotive engines which operate at various maximum speeds rather than
the typical 2700 rpm aircraft engine.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Vogt
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve
Ken (Lycon) told me the 9:1 pistons would make 200 pretty easily. The
better flowing heads on the angle valve definitely helps.
I did a cranking pressure test on a Tiger with new LyCon ported and
polished cylinders. The cranking pressure was 135-137 on 1, 3, 4. On
#2, it was 149. Go figure.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wed, July 7, 2010 7:09:48 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve
Also, I don't think a 0.2 increase in CR would result in 20 more HP.
As I recall ECI which offers a 9.0 CR parallel valve engine
(experimental) rates the HP less that 200. Seems to me the angle valve
IO-360 develops more power due to 3 things: a better induction system
and combustion chamber (it flows more air), higher CR and possibly fuel
injection.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: James Courtney
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 11:05 PM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve
Would it really make more heat though? You=99ve more
efficiently converting fuel and oxygen to mechanical energy with the
higher compression ratio. This said you=99re also incurring
higher internal pressures which tends to transfer more heat to the
cylinder and head. I wonder what the actual behavior is? Probably a
bit more heat as you say since more energy is being extracted even if
greater efficiency is at play.
Jamey
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Vogt
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 7:24 PM
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve
From a horsepower point-of-view, the angle valve head flows better.
The valves are angles more toward the ports. But, the difference really
isn't that much. The 200 hp angle valve uses 8.7:1 compression ratio.
If the parallel valve O360 had 8.7:1 compression ratio, it would make
200 hp also.
The biggest difference is the angle valve head had better cooling
fins. Therefore, if it makes more heat (horsepower) it can shed the
heat better.
If you consider weight, the parallel valve is better hp/lb.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: Bruce Smith <haveblue1@mac.com>
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 6:55:16 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhttp://forums.matronic
s.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution No virus found in this
incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
23:37:00
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atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.co
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